The new entery level processor

Given this from Peter:

"over-achiever" is intriguing. When will you tell us more?

By my records PeterT will tell you more for the next 2-3 years.

translation?

Check 997/998/978 threads for an explanation.

No thanks, I've read them since day one.

Are they thinkinig by Christmas for this one?

Yes, as long as you aren't picky about which Christmas.

I have been wondering the same thing. It has been 2 weeks since this entry level processor was mentioned and we haven't heard anything more about it. Why did Outlaw even bother mentioning it if they weren't going to give us any details.

Maybe a dreaded "North American Competitor" has tracked down and pressured that manufacturing partner too...

Please don't count on any updates, you will torture yourself waiting if it does take a while to come to market.

I believe Outlaw was hoping to keep this quiet till close to release. I can't imagine what conversations would be going on here if they did not hint at this replacement. Lesser of two evils?

I agree with what you said especially about the torture part.
I had been following the progress of the 978 for over a year. Then the bombshell about the 978 gets dropped on us. I'm frustrated like a lot of other people on here. The start of the fourth quarter is only a couple of months away and since outlaw mentioned this entry level processor I thought they would be a little more forthcoming with information. I respectively request that outlaw gives us something.

Like I posted earlier, if they have been working on this processor for the last 8-9 months, don't you think they would at least have pictures or specs or something to show us. I think we will know when we are closer when Gonks' posting output drops below 3rd or 4th place on the list. I don't need an entry level processor. At this point I think I can construct a pretty good device from a PC for about the same price and know in advance exactly what date it goes on line. I followed the 997.998.978 trail since the beginning and won't follow this one closely at all.

No, because they weren't expecting info for it to be released for public consumption. They are now trying to bring it to market early. If the timing is wrong for you, then Marantz will be releasing 2 new models soon. Maybe there is pictures of them.

At least it has a name now “Model 975”, see announcement forum for beta tester info. Bob

I was looking for a 978 SQ level processor with room correction of Audyssey MultEQ XT32 pedigree or similar (Anthem ARC, Trinnov, etc.). This entry level Model 975 won't cut it for me. I want a processor with digital room correction and a DAC/preamp section that gives me high-mid to entry high-end level performance. The 978 was supposed to be that processor if we can believe the anecdotal rumors from the Outlaws.

I think that the only 978-like processor that Outlaw will be selling in a few months, as I had predicted two months ago but for different reasons, will be the Marantz AV7007. I'm hoping that Marantz ups the ante to XT32, which I have a feeling they'll do (if they're smart). I think most of you should look in that direction for a replacement to the 978. Those of you that can afford a circa $3K price tag should even consider the higher-end rumored Marantz AV8007.

I won't be wasting much more of my time dwelling on what might have been with this 997/978 grail adventure. It's very sad for everybody involved, Outlaw Audio as well as all their enthusiastic customers, but it's time to move on.

Time will tell. I'll be checking out the 975 when it shows up...I like the idea of a solid no-frills budget processor with decent sound quality. The HDMI implementation will have to be flawless, no dropped audio, no two-second pauses between tracks or when switching TV channels. Why do so many current receivers have these issues anyway? That would drive me nuts.

New features never stop coming...5.1 to 6.1 to 7.1, fixed crossover to multiple crossover, sub eq to room eq...how long until we see XT64? XT128? Where does it end? I'd much rather stick to an affordable budget and spend the extra money enjoying new music and movies.

Oh yea, the recent threads on customers getting their out-of-warranty 1070 receivers repaired for $75 plus shipping is another reason I like Outlaw. Bummer that those units broke down but it's probably less expensive to repair than mainstream brands.

It'll also be curious to see if the Outlaw's introduce a 1075 receiver based on the 975 processor...although I'm thinking they probably would rather see those potential customers opt for a 975/7075 combo.

-John

I whole heartedly agree that the processor should be followed up by a receiver based on the processor. At some point the need for the latest Audyssey/ TRinnov/ARC/whatever is a minor consideration UNLESS the room you are using for your HT is whacked beyond control. Most of us wanted to see Trinnov implemented because it could spatially correct for multiple listening seats so that you could save different configurations based on where you wanted to sit. It would have been pretty cool to adjust all your speakers so they sounded the same even if they were different makes/models, but lets face it that feature can be corrected manually also. Buying new source material is likely the best bang for the $$$.

EVERY room is an equalizer. Properly implemented room correction minimizes the room's unwanted contributions, letting you hear more of what was in the source material. Why would that be a "minor consideration"?

I am saying I would not base my decision to buy a processor on what version of Audyssey it has. Although almost any room can use some correction I would rather do it physically in the room than metaphysically in the processor. Audyssey XT versus XT32 isn't that big of an improvement over a room that has been adjusted to start with. If your HT is in a room which can't be adjusted physically, I don't believe any room correction can fully compensate the room. My main listening area in my Florida home is open to a space which contains about 12000 ft3 and has been adjusted pretty well by Audyssey XT on my Onkyo. It is nowhere near perfect but XT32 wouldn't do any better. My HT room in my other home is much better suited for HT and will need much less correction when it is done.

I personally don't think they should have said anything about the new processor until just before it was ready. Don't want another repeat of vaporware not available for months or years until either it does come out, or it gets killed too.

Likewise, I would rather do it physically than electronically (I don't see how room correction is metaphysical). By that same logic, I would rather listen to discrete multi-channel than 2-channel sources processed to surround, just as I would rather watch real hi-def video than standard-def scaled to my 1080p display.

But that belies the very reason we have surround processing and video scaling: for instances when we don't have multi-channel audio or HD video (respectively). Likewise, electronic room correction isn't a replacement for room treatments, it is for instances where you can't treat the room physically.

For most consumers, it is very difficult to find a panel that will pull down a 6dB high-Q peak centered at 43.5Hz without affecting adjacent frequencies. For people in those situations, it is more practical to use a parametric EQ; even easier if the measuring and equalization are done automatically. How do you know that? XT distributes filter taps evenly across the audible frequency range, even though it does little good (could even make things worse) in the higher frequencies. By comparison, XT32 concentrates more filter taps in the lower frequencies, where problems are the most audible and correction can yield the most improvement. XT32 also treats multiple subs more intelligently, calibrating each sub (setting levels and distances) independently but equalizing them together (i.e., essentially EQing their interaction in the room). XT equalizes each sub separately, even though we never ever hear them that way during playback.

Taken together, both those differences make the improvements of XT32 audible over old XT, even in rooms that are well treated (unless you believe that rooms can be perfectly treated, leaving zero problems to fix electronically). The room doesn't have to be "whacked beyond control" in order to hear the improvements that automated room correction can achieve. Even the most professionally treated home theatres use equalization as a finishing touch; they wouldn't be doing that if it was a "minor consideration".

And yet, I still would not base a decision on upgrading my processor on which version of room correction it had. For me, it IS a minor consideration when compared to the other attributes I want in a processor.

I think you are level headed enough to know that at this point Outlaw is beyond "damned if you do, damned if you don't" and the relative degree of non-disclosure of appearance / features of the 975 has to be offset by the less than rosy outlook that even the most ardent support of Outlaw must now have toward any pre-pro / multi-channel receiver again displaying its badge...

Make no mistake, the competitive pressure on all manufacturers of home theatre gear has NEVER been higher and whatever competitor forced the hand of the manufacturing partner is likely to be just as actively sniffing around to prevent the 975 from ever seeing the light of day.

Meanwhile Outlaw well knows that every day that goes by with them merely selling a two channel receiver is another day that they give up the cash flow that comes from their bread and butter multi-channel amps and subs...

So how is it that this competitive pressure on all manufacturers of home theater gear has not prevented Emotiva from releasing 3 or 4 processors? You make it sound as if Outlaw is being singled out, that their next processor, the 975, is being deep-sixed as we speak.

I beg to differ. One of the main reasons Outlaw has had trouble is that HDMI made everything else obsolete, and also many times harder to manufacture or bring to market. Even the big boys like Denon had bug issues and delays.

I certainly cannot disagree that HDMI has given major headaches to many A/V firms. The rapid pace of change that is not uncommon in the world of software driven standards committees is rather different than the glacial pace that most audio products typically "evolve"; every read up about how the RIAA phone equalization curve came about? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIAA_equalization#History

Your math does not seem quite right regarding Outlaw's most obvious web centric competition -- http://gdgt.com/emotiva/av-receivers/ I seem to recall that they have more than their fair share of problems too... I think this a little like the "big guys" of motorcycle manufacturing targeting true premium products from the likes of Harley Davidson and not group off on their own... like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jawa_Motors

The bottom line on the brutal nature of competition amongst A/V products marketers is no secret. Any business journal is filled with tales of former "marque" names being part of "house of cards" types private equity deals and shedding multiple product offerings, often at the point in one's line where such products hold maximum appeal http://axiomaudio.com/tips_separates_electronics.html. The "marketing overload" that has long been the drum that the "big names" pound in the retail channel works directly against Outlaw's MUCH lower overhead which enables them to offer the EXACT kind of products that KILL the margins of the "big name" premium offerings at significantly smaller margin. The reason that Outlaw can survive on such meager margin it also what leaves them all the more susceptible to the demands of "bigger fish". The rampant abuse of "intellectual property rights" that does help some Asian based manufacturers to leapfrog their competitors also leaves open a door to firms on both sides of the problem to resort to more "old fashioned" business tactics...

http://www.chinaeconomicreview.com/strong-arm-law

http://www.financialexpress.com/news/column-chinas-strongarm-tactics/966241/0

Not trying to convince you that you should, just pointing out that I disagree with your reason (better room correction doesn't make much improvement unless the room is "whacked beyond control"), since I've heard newer/better room correction make a noticeable improvement even in well treated rooms.

HDMI is the main reason for the 978 delay, I'll lay odds. HDMI, as I've stated, is incredibly complex and is still not perfectly implemented.

The reports that were posted did not single out HDMI so much as they highlighted the fact that the relative complex interactions between ALL the software that was needed to provide the digital source routing AND room correction AND UI features was far more time consuming than previous iterations of products. The decisions to test "edge case" situations that filled the RAM when using multiple room correction readings caused changes in the amount of memory that was deemed acceptable and those HW changes required additional changes in the firmware...

In summary the whole decision to utilize a "super premium" room correction (which most mainstream home theatre customers at tis price point demand ...) was I believe the bigger hurdle in the shift for the 978. There is probably something to be said that the lessons learned from the 998 failed HDMI effort helped to ease the transition to HDMI 1.4a. I think there is also a little bit of the "Vietnam War fought by WWII Generals Problem" -- problems that cropped in the last battle were addressed but NEW problems got neglected (and some of things neglected were the 'business side'..).

{As an aside I sorta wonder if the Trinnov folks worked better with the Sherwood Newcastle people as the tech was "newer" then or if Trinnov is less resource intensive than Audyssey, an interesting question that hopefully will be addressed by a firm that has experience with both...}

Overall the "shifts in thinking" are what DID NOT happen fast enough to get EITHER product from inception to production. Modern consumer electronics is more like "guerrilla warfare" that the more staid pace of previous offerings / battles...
These "shifts in thinking" are not unique to home theatre equipment. I recall that when automakers made changes to how "integrated" the entertainment / navigation systems on their vehicles were some choose to partner with firms like Alpine or Pioneer while others partnered with MSFT and still others tried to cob together enough talent in-house. Even today there is WIDE variation in what sorts "features" the in-vehicle systems support. Fortunately in most cases these are not "make it or break it" type differences for the car makers as most still offer some relatively "low tech" option too.

In contrast for a firm like Outlaw that cannot really afford to have a broad range of product offerings the painful process of trying to build a "core" feature set that is high enough to offer good value means that they when there are stumbling blocks an entire part of their business is absent...

The bottom line is that the "getting victimized in China" thing was a rookie mistake...one that Tribeman should have seen coming from a mile away and one that even casual observers were discussing well in advance of the hatchet coming down. He's been around the block a few times and should have known better. Whatever.

A "budget processor" isn't going to save this brand from obscurity. I really hope they've got something else up their sleeves.

The bottom line is we will never know who did what to whom. Everything after that is just guessing or axe grinding.

The 990, 997 (IIRC) and 978 all suffered from a lack of memory issues. So I hope one lesson, that Outlaw learns is don't be stingy with the memory. Its cheap (and will get cheaper over a production life). It also allows products to get out the door sooner, vs having to wait while code is being rewritten to fit into a memory space that is too small.

It might not be a case of "stingy" so much as the sad fact that "embedded systems" tend to be GENERATIONS behind the current "general purpose" computer systems, http://embeddedboard.wordpress.com/2012/02/01/comparison-of-embedded-processor-families/ . Some of most popular the system-on-a-chip embedded controllers use memory very sparingly and the decision to increase even "file access space" type memory can have negative consequences on things like start-up and routines that force a re-scan for settings (it is my hunch that this sort of problem is what lies at the root of the Sherwood 972 issues, I could be wrong but if that is the case it would explain why no "patch" will ever be able to fundamentally fix some of its problems...) .

I suppose the alternatives (like relying on a full blown interactive OS like Linux) may be one way of addressing this sort of problem, but from an 'efficiency & elegance of design' view (which most engineers tend to have to one degree or another...) it is more than a little like replacing a family sedan with a Greyhound Bus. I suppose there is not too much harm in having luggage capacity of 8 tons and seating for 56 (along with an on board lavatory! -- Motor Coach International but "overbuilding" is rarely either the way projects start out OR a viable way to "turn around" a stalled project. (And of course having a 12L 410 HP diesel motor idle while you drop the kids off at soccer practice would be the A/V pre-pro equivalent of having GHz class CPU and associated power supplies / cooling fans whirring around while you want to listen to music / TV shows, and carving out probably $250 or so toward non-AV specific HW is nutty too...)

And the motor coach costs quite a bit more than your standard minivan.

There are quite a few tradeoffs that go into the decision of where to draw the line between application specific and generic processing. Processing speed, cost and flexibility/performance all play off against each other. For example if you want more speed you'll either have to pay more or give up some flexibility. How well you strike a balance between those factors essentially determines how well your product will sell. If your product has what people want at a price they are willing to pay they'll buy.

I also think that the Sherwood problems are resource related. I'm sure the algorithm had to be simplified significantly to get it to fit on the 972. A change of basis from one vector space to another is dicey enough when you have a linear time invariant system. Start throwing in nonlinearities and I wouldn't be suprised if the simplified solution wouldn't converge for a large number of cases.

I must admit after all the speculation about the three previous Outlaw pre/pros that never came to be I am skeptical of getting into a discussion of what the 975 will offer. However, I recently stepped back to look at what my needs are and I may be OK with a stripped down (by today's standards) pre/pro. I don't think I need video processing; my Pioneer plasma does a pretty nice job with cable signals and my Oppo has ABT processing in it. Room correction; it would be nice but I'm not displeased with my current room configuration and the sound from my 990. Lastly, I want to use HDMI for all my sources (cable box, Oppo Blu-Ray, Apple TV, X-Box, etc). Add some nice DAC/ADCs to the equation and the latest decoding and it may be all I really need. Only one extra would be nice, but not entirely necessary, is a good MM/MC phone preamp for those of us with a vinyl addiction. Outlaw could leave off all but one S and component video, use unbalanced channel outputs (most don't have noisy electrical environments that require balanced), maybe only have one component video input and one output, and call it a day. We'll just have to see what they are beta testing......

Once you've had a good room correction system in place, it ceases to be a "nice to have" and moves firmly into the "must have" category. I used to be a doubter myself. There's no way I'd ever purchase an AVR or processor without what I considered to be the best room correction system within my budget. It makes a very noticeable difference. Even the lower end MultEQ XT does a pretty good job in my relatively odd shaped listening room now and I've since auditioned XT32 and agree that it's a definite improvement over XT. For me, the next processor is either going to be equipped with Audyssey XT32 or (less likely) the Emotiva TaCT-based solution (if that survives user scrutiny after being in the market for a while). Time will tell.

Best,

I disagree that a room correction system is a necessity unless you have a problem room. My 1st separate prepro was the 950, which had no room correction. I was able to place the speakers properly, but the low end was very boomy, had hot spots and dead spots, and no tweeking of the sub was able to correct it. I spent over $2,000 on room treatment, bought a 2nd sub, and finally got the room sounding great. My next prepro had MultiEQ and I was quite dissatisfied with the results. I liked the sound of the room better with no correction. I thought perhaps that XT32 would produce better results, so my next prepro, which I recently purchased, has XT32. It is admittedly better than MultiEQ, but I still prefer the sound of the system with MultiEQ turned off and the speakers balance manually with a good SPL meter. Although it might be difficult to buy a fully featured prepro without room correction, on my next prepro purchase I would prefer to have one without room correction. Bottom line is that I believe room correction is only important if you have a problem room where the speakers cannot be place optimally, and that one would be much better off to treat the room than have the prepro try to correct it without room treatment. Room treatment may be a more expense route, but I think it produces better results.

I think I'd prefer to spend that $2k on a long list of other things instead of "room treatment," but I'm kinda funny that way.

Your room has as much or more effect on the sound of your system as any other single component. You can get by spending less on room treatment, but the rest of your system can be the best most expensive equipment you can buy and it will not reach its potential unless your room is properly treated and sounds good. After the results I had, I am a true believer in room treatment.

No worries. Honest disagreements are inevitable in something as subjective as sound quality. I would prefer to have the electronics compensate for room issues.

Best,

If it can be done reasonably, best to deal with any problem where the problem originates. Electronics are not going to reduce excessive room reverberation, for instance, but I'm still in favor of electronic analysis and adjustment hand-in-hand with room fixes.

I'll just point you guys back to this post and defer to the experts

WOW! That guy is a little over the top, but I bet his room sounds good. I would direct you to auralex acoustics. They have some fairly economical systems that are tastefull and effective. Their web site is also very educational. I have to admit, that room treatment is not practical for every application. The "wife acceptance factor" is pretty low on putting bass traps in the living room. However, if you have a dedicated home theater room, I think room treatment is a necessity.

I remember reading Jimna's post and thinking he has way more time than I do for this hobby. He did give some great tips on how to construct the traps and how to do it pretty cheaply. I have always wondered how he did the analysis of the room to get the traps placed correctly. Did he use some sort of analyzer or just his ears. Pretty impressive none the less.

Could be worse -- http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/52928-diy-anechoic-chamber.html

To be fair, I think the dude was looking to build someplace where he could play with speaker designs / measurements, but still...

I'd be happy with a 990 with HDMI inputs (and maybe a little smaller physically) and some upgraded audio transcoding. I've been very pleased from day one with my 990, which I upgraded to from a 950, which I also liked. I'll probably keep the 990 in my HT, I just want something good for the TV in the den. I was using a 970/7125 combo, but I have never been pleased with the 970. I finally had enough and put that combo in the closet and bought a small Marantz NR-1402. While not great, it is OK for everyday TV watching, it doesn't have the audio issues that never seemed to get fixed with any of the 970 firmware updates. I'd like to get the 7125 back into play as it is a nice sounding amp.

If you see in my signature that I also have an unused RR2150, it's not in the closet because I don't like it. It will be put back into service when I finally get my office reorganized, along with a pair of Boston Acoustics VR-60s. The RR2150 had an issue but Outlaw fixed it relatively inexpensively.

As you can see I've been a big fan of Outlaw's gear, and have spent a bit of money with them, but my patience has about run out. I've put off the upgrade of the 970 (Did I mention that I don't like it?) for two years waiting on "the next Outlaw pre/pro", but I'm about done. It isn't a matter of I need to upgrade nearly as much as I want to upgrade. Even though I already have tons of cables of various types so I don't really need to purchase anything new for connectivity into my older equipment and I don't mind wire clutter, I want the simplicity (at least from the user point of view) of HDMI. It's time to move into the 21st century as far as home theater cabling is concerned.

Now it's time to go back to listening to my analog two-channel system, which is something that I find myself doing more and more of lately. Hopefully Outlaw will somehow manage to extricate itself from this product morass that it has been in for the past couple of years. I really do want them to succeed as a company, a company that produces good products for a reasonable price.

Oh, before I forget; where is the ICBM-2? I could really use that to help blend a subwoofer in with my Maggies. I've been waiting over a year for that as well.

Jeff

I think your plight is not unlike that of others. And that is part of the problem. Despite the value of loyalty Outlaw has to have new products that will be worth the expense of upgrading and interesting enough to attract new comers to the "posse". If all they did was "update" HDMI the dyed in the wool types (who frankly are probably off with something from an esoteric outlier like Cary...) might be pleased but the majority of folks that really do appreciate room correction and other advances would look elsewhere...

(and bass management is sorta similar too -- I know a big part of what I would hope to achieve with more modern room correction is incorporate newer / more subs into my system, not a whole lot of value in picking up ICBM to put back on the shelf...)

The 975 is said to be a entry level processor. Does this mean there is no room correction? Not even Audyssey XT?

fallout - I don't think the Outlaws have stated one way or the other if the new processor will have room correction. Seems like it would be a bit of a gamble to exclude it though, as it's such a common feature these days in newer receivers and processors.

-John

Before this all spins into speculation, I want to confirm that the new entry level processor will not offer room
correction. The Model 975 employs a Cirrus Logic solution but we proactively chose NOT to include their room correction feature. For those of you who purchased the 990 we made the same decision back then to omit activating this part of their free library of features. It just did not meet our own performance goals.
We met recently with representatives of Cirrus and they told us that while there have been some improvements in the number of filters in that part of their software, their primary focus is really in other areas. We agree.

Peter

Good Lord....the hits just keep on coming.

Good luck with that. Seriously.

Best,

I tend to agree that this will NOT be a big hit in the "broad" marketplace but for an "esoteric" offering it is an interesting approach. If the "marketing spin" is handled appropriately I can imagine there being some traction for this. I mean when I see folks in their late 20s / early 30s riding expensive, heavy "Dutch utility" bicycles and other manner of oddball transportation or this same screwy demographic sinking a huge pile of their allegedly scarce cash into a ancient looking Italian commercial style espresso machine for the joys of manually drawing designs in the foam in the privacy of their home or seeking out pathetically underpowered tube amplifiers, grossly over priced DACs and outrageously over hyped headphones I can sorta see room for a "no correction / unadulterated" device.

I don't think I would want one with some assurances that some kind of reasonably affordable Trinnov or perhaps high-end OPEN SOURCE dedicated PC based correction platform might be available down the road. Now THAT would be VERY interesting.

Bummer...well, it is targeted at the 'budget-minded' consumer. We'll have to wait and see what else it brings to the table.

-John

From Peter's comments, I would assume the 975 is a 970 replacement with HDMI and hopefully without the no-sound issues that plagued that line of gear. I wonder if it will be at the 990's level of sound quality.

You may have it, 73Bruin. Could be a 970 relacement with great SQ - we'll see.

If the sound quality is there and it falls within an acceptable price envelope, it could work. I look forward to listening to it when the time comes.

Best,

The competition is very fierce in the entry level processor field and without room correction it will be a tough sell.

Xenonman,

I have to ask, who exactly do you see as the competition in the entry-level processor market? I couldn't find a whole lot of under-$1000 AV processors when I had had a look, or are you including AV receivers with 7.1 pre-amp outputs as well?

From my perspective, I'll be comparing the 975/7075 combo with a few select AV receivers in the 'up to $1200' price range including the Cambridge Audio 541R, Anthem MRX300 and NAD T757 --- not all of whom have room correction. Possibly the Marantz SR5007 or SR6007 although I have an aversion to manufacturers that release a new product every year.

-John

Quite a few hurdles to jump here for this entry level unit.

Yes, no room correction could be a deal breaker but the bigger elephant in the room is the video processor and HDMI performance.

Peter, when can we expect to see more details and specs?

We are still waiting for more results in Beta. So far so good. We have been able to resolve 12 or so identified bugs to everyone's satisfaction.

Regression testing is difficult. Every time you introduce a software change, not only do you have to see if it resoves the bug, but also you have to go back to see if the fix "broke" something else that was fine before. It is very tricky.

Peter

Right on, Peter. EVERY time we get an ODM to fix a significant bug, the fix causes a new minor bug (at least). Software is a b_tch, isn't it?

Yes I included the AVRs with 7.1 outputs that include Audyssey or some other ARC. Since it is an "Entry level" processor, trying to convince someone just getting into this wonderful hobby that they would also have to shell out for an amp when they can get the whole rig with an amp that is upgradable later is going to be a challenge.

On the other hand, there are many people already IN the hobby who have amps and may be looking for a low cost/high performance processor to mate up with an amp that was cast aside in the last upgrade so that they have a modestly priced, but great sounding, system for a second room.

Should be VERY interesting.

We'll know more when the specs are made public with respect to the video processor. The Onkyo 818 has the kitchen sink for under $1000. I know that Outlaw can't match the pricing or production of Onkyo, but I am hoping that they can produce a product with excellent video and audio processing. If this unit can satisfy those areas, then maybe the lack of room correction won't be that much of a set back with acceptance.

I can see audio processing but why do we need video processing besides good switching and perhaps scalup for legacy equipment? Can't we just pass the processing on to the Monitor?

Thanks Bob

I agree, Bob. Make it best SQ with good switching. My preference is to let the OPPO's (and other players) do the upscaling.

Yes you can pass the processing to the monitor, but in this day and age of cable/satellite boxes, streaming devices, blu-ray players, etc., a lot of people run everything through their AVR or pre/pro and use one HDMI out to their monitor/TV. Yes the Oppo is a fine processor but not everyone has one or in fact feels the need to buy one. Some may feel that the best set up for them is to "Pass" everything to their AVR/processor and then scale, enhance and unitize noise reduction as well as the many other filters available. Also, not all monitors/TV's have great processor's in them.

My intention of my post was referencing what Onkyo is doing with their 818 and the cost that it is selling for as well as the previous post by others that were disappointed with the lack of room correction. My thought was that if the new Outlaw unit had very good to excellent audio and video processing, that maybe the features that would not make it a deal breaker for some.

Bobm and Hank:

If all you are interested in is SQ (and no room correction or video processing), why not buy a hdmi switch and any number of previous generation pre-pro's. Anything from a 990 to a AVM-30 seem to be available for under $700. For probably around $1100, an OPPO BDP-105 might be meet your needs as well.

So I agree with H. Stevens and believe that the 975 needs to have some compelling feature besides SQ.

I think the additional feature needs to be video processing and it won't take much to meet or exceed what is done in most TVs. That said I hope it has the ability to bypass the video processing by source just in case I get a newer Oppo or it turns out I prefer to let my Pioneer handle the processing. Regardless, HDMI switching, the ability to handle the new sound codecs that will get rid of a big tangle of wires and the ability to easily handle multiple HDMI sources (e.g. BD/DVD, cable box, XBox and Apple TV) may make this processor a hit at the right price.

[quote=H Stevens]Yes you can pass the processing to the monitor, but in this day and age of cable/satellite boxes, streaming devices, blu-ray players, etc., a lot of people run everything through their AVR or pre/pro and use one HDMI out to their monitor/TV. /quote]

I agree and that is the only way I would want my setup to work, thus you need good switching at a minimum. My Yam does a fine job at switching and I am happy to leave the processing up to the display device. I do understand your point, just thought if they had to cut something out why not the vid processing, heck some of the super expensive pro/pros do.

Bob

That was my point also. Some of the old/used processors out there do not have what I call state of the art SQ. Anyway, the product will be what it will be.

This is suppossed to be an "entry level processor", I can virtually guarantee that it will not have state of the art SQ. Until Outlaw releases the 975's specifications or more detail, it is not even clear if it will be superior to the 990 from a SQ perspective.

More than likely, this unit will be a 970 with HDMI.

H. Stevens

I believe you and I are in agreement about our expectations for the 975 from a SQ perspective and the factors that would help make it successful from a marketing point of view.

Yes, I believe we are. I'm looking forward to the reveal.

I think it's great that Outlaw had this up their sleeve and I hope it work's out well.

I'll take you back to this quote from the orignial announcment by Peter:

"In comparison to the Model 978, this is an entry level processor that is simple to operate and it is targeted at our budget-minded customers. It not only covers the basics and a bit more, from a sonic perspective this new processor will be an over-achiever."

This certainly leaves the door open to the possibility that this new processor "may" be the best performing Outlaw processor from a sonic standpoint, if lacking some of the "advanced" features. I grant there's a lot of wiggle room though as to exactly what market is being outperformed.

So I'm thinking Black Friday Sale for the release. Maybe the slightly pre-black friday sales we've seen in the past.

This unit sounds something like the Parasound P7, no processing, mostly audio/video switching?

Well, you know, Parasound is a "North American based audio company"...

(note I have absolutely no knowledge of who this product might be targeted at from either a consumer stand point oo competitive market positioning however I do find it curious that others have noticed this does line up as perhaps a 'rip up my turf and I'll slide even harder to mess with yours" move)

And how can you do that? Have you heard it? One has to say that you are jumping the gun just a bit here.

Like any number of processors that are announced but not yet available, any speculation on the SQ is just that: SPECULATION.

Or do you have some inside news you can let us in on?

Way to call him out, PodBoy!

While I agree the 990 is a fine piece of electronics, the state of the art has advanced somewhat since it was introduced and as PeterT said he expects the 975 to overachieve in the audio area. We can make up whatever we want, but we should at least stay within the bounds of the advertised features before we speculate to death about things we can't possible know.

Having never heard the 990, where was it lacking in sound quality? I find it odd that every time a manufacturer comes out with a new generation it has better sound quality. When I got my 950 eons ago everyone claimed the sound quality rivaled gear many times more expensive. Then the 970 and 990 came out each with increasing levels of ... sound quality. It's so arbitrary I can't figure out why some consider it a feature of a processor.

I'll state my personal "opinion": SQ is a critical, key feature of a "processor", because the processor in the case of an Outlaw pre/pro, is also the preamplifier in one's sound system. Front-end components (CD player, DVD player, etc) will have their SQ affected by the system preamplifier. High-end, expensive front-end components with high SQ will have that SQ either degraded or not, depending on the SQ of the system preamplifier. Power amps at the ouput of the preamp, likewise will have their SQ affected by the preamp.
And yes, it's the nature of consumer products that next generation models are marketed with the old "new and improved" focus. I still have my 950 with its loud transformer hum and barely working volume control, waiting for the next Outlaw pre/pro.

I agree, I can’t really tell any difference in SQ between electronics that I have purchased. I bought my Yamaha to replace my broken 950 and pleased with the performance which is just as good as the 950. I only listen critically in stereo which I guess has been nailed with the current state of technology.

I would be interested in how the new processor does in lab testing. There it is possible to get some objective results if you can trust the magazines. If I remember the 950 was reviewed by S&V and did ok but not stellar.

-Bob

No I do not have any inside information, but I can read and understand the meaning of words.

First I do know that Outlaw strives to provide "high performance" and value ("substantially more performance for a much lower price"). I have never seen anything in their mission statements and code that strive to provide "State of the Art" To me that means that the 975 will probably be the best performing pre-processor at its price point. I buy Outlaw products because of their value.

Having said that, State of the Art and Entry Level are mutually exclusive terms. By definition, State of the Art means a no compromise design, that uses the best available components regardless of cost. Entry Level means that components lower in cost then their State of Art equivalents were deliberately selected to provide a product at a lower price point.

"State of the Art" and "Entry Level" need not be mutually exclusive. In addition, one man's "entry" is another man's "high end", so it all depends on your viewpoint and what your level of sophistication and budget requirements are.

Don't you think it would be good idea to wait until you can see it, hear it and know what the price is before you make this kind of pronouncement? The whole idea of doing a smart "State of the Art" product is to do it with the right features and performance at the right price.

It has been said that "You're entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts." True, indeed, I respect your opinion, but why not wait until you see what it is -- which is to say have the facts. THEN make the judgement. State of the Art can differ within prices, as well. But, you ARE entitled to your own opinion. So are the rest of us.

This reminds me of a song:

"It's only half-past twelve but I don't care. It's five o'clock somewhere"

Drink up boy's! Sounds like happy hour!

H Stevens, you are correct. Let's forget about advance opinions and wait for facts. Meanwhile, I'm attending the Flying Saucer BEERFEAST here in Austin tomorrow: http://www.beerfeast2012.com/austin.php?location=austin A first-class (dare I say "State of the Art"?) event.

Flying Saucer BEERFEAST! That sounds fantastic!

While your there don't forget to try a "Ex-Wife Extra Bitter Pale Ale". They're not very smooth, but they go down well.

I guess you fall in with Humpty Dumpty on word usage: "When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less".

I will be happy to wait for the 975 to come out and see the features it offers and the price. Hopefully it will have SQ superior to the 990 so if mine ever dies, I might have a reasonably priced replacement.

H Stevens: I'll drink one for you.
73Bruin: Great quote and so very appropriate for this hobby of ours

I don't quite agree with your first paragraph, instead I think that SQ or sonic performance is not something I would automatically associate with being state of the art, at least up to a point. And for a company like Outlaw who can bring excellent audio products to market for well below retail, something like this product, even though it's considered entry level, could be an excellent performer.

Down the road I'll be looking for a 2 channel pre amp, something that almost no one buys any more as they are so antiquated. Yet they can cost thousands of dollars and not even have bass or treble controls. So I agree that one needs to take a wait and see approach, we've been surprised before around here.

Here's the thing...

Do I think it's possible to create a bare bones processor with decent sound quality on a frugal budget? Yes. The silicon is out there.

Do I think people will buy a relatively inexpensive bare bones processor with decent sound quality that lacks room correction? I'm inclined to think not...at least not in quantities that would be interesting to a company like outlaw. I hope I'm mistaken.

A few months ago, I would have had a different answer to the second question. I thought my room was OK, my amp was King Kong, and that I didn't want any of that fancy stuff in the signal path. Since then, I've had a chance to play with and use Audyssey room correction. There's no going back. And that's coming from someone who used to be happy with 2 channels of EL34 goodness fed to circa-1990 Dahlquist speakers through a tricked-out Dynaco pre-amp. How the times have changed.

I'll be curious to hear the new unit and may even order one to audition it, but Outlaw's got a tough row to hoe here.

Best,

Ritz2, you've undergone a radical transformation from analog tube to totally digital. I know only one local audiophile who's done that and it was because he became so tired of caring for records and stylii and the hassle of pulling out a record, putting it on his TT and carefully lowering the tonearm, etc, all for a few minutes of music. Maybe the transformation is part of the aging process.

Time and technology march on. Who's got the time and energy to care for tube gear anymore?

My take is that if you pay enough attention to the amp/speakers and have components in the signal path that aren't egregiously noisy, it's hard for most people to tell the difference. Caving in to the room correction aspect was a slow process. I'd been "sold" on it long ago with a friend's TaCT gear, but it was always just outside of my budgetary threshold of pain. The improvements were obvious, even to the most casual listener. However, until recently, I hadn't heard another system that was able to accomplish that. In the last year or so, I started fiddling with Audyssey MultEQ XT after winning a Denon AVR as an office door prize. It just plain worked. Then, after some discussion here, I auditioned an AVR with MultEQ XT32. It also just plain worked. Color me a convert to room correction. It's now affordable enough that I don't think I'd ever buy an AVR/Processor without it.

Like I said, I'll be curious to see how well it sells, even if it isn't something that I would personally buy. (Lots of people buy iPhones and I don't like 'em)

Best,

Ritz, those are very interesting news coming from you. Thank you for sharing those experiences. A lot of folks around here were wondering how much of a difference XT32 made.

BTW, I've been reading various stories by disgruntled TacT gear owners on the Tact Audio newsgroups on Yahoo in the last few months. Same thing from a very well known Tact gear modder and repair shop that can't get Tact replacement parts such as Tact I/O boards and PCBs. Some folks haven't been able to get their gear back from repairs for months now. Their attempts at contacting Tact Audio have proven fruitless and apparently their phone service and e-mail accounts are no longer in service. A very credible and long time Tact gear owner reports that their website is currently infected by a Trojan virus. Another Tact gear owner has been advised by a third party that Tact is in a status of financial crises. On some websites, I've read that Boz (Dr. Radomir Bozovic), the owner of Tact Audio, is quite busy porting the Tact Digital Room Correction system to the new Emotiva XMC-1 processor. There are even rumors flying around that Tact Audio may be acquired by Emotiva (Jade Design Inc.).

On the Emotiva forum, it came to light that their website was not working, nor their phone number. When I went to the TacT website and got hit with a trojan(rejected, thankfully), I challenged posters on what this might mean. After persisting, I got several of my posts deleted!

It seems to me that Big Dan is some kind of predatory business guy. He scoops up Sherbourn, which seemed to be in deep decline, and no businessman in his right mind would enter a business relationship with a company in trouble like TacT. So obviously there is something to be gained for Dan to do this, and I would wager it is some kind of ownership/purchase of TacT for next to nothing so he can ship more jobs to China.

If/when TacT gets released for the XMC(early 2013), I wouldn't be surprised to hear an announcement later in the year. Now this is all speculation on my part, but since Dan has made no friends in the Audiophile industry by dumping cheap chinese products in the marketplace, the only way he can get any decent room correction componentry is to take over floundering companies IMHO.

I don't know anything about the current status of TacT. That's too bad if they've fallen on hard times as I was always pleasantly surprised by the effectiveness of their room correction.

As for Emotiva and shipping jobs to China, I hear ya. I've been looking at the higher end Onkyo AVR's that are made in Malaysia as part of my often fruitless effort to avoid products manufactured in China. I'm not sure if I'd call Emo's pricing strategy "dumping". If they can build and sell their products and make a profit, more power to 'em. Ultimately, competition benefits the consumer.

Best,

Politics in the Malaysia are somewhat different than those in China, to be sure, but if the goal is jobs for AMERICAN workers, buying an Onkyo doesn't exactly help. At least all of the Outlaw multi-channel amplifiers are made in the US.

When it comes to the lesser of two evils, I'd rather support Malaysia or several other countries in the region than China, who actively engages in stealing technologies, military weaponry and hacking foreign corporations/government agencies.

See, it took a while, but we finally found something we agree on.

Best,

Price suggests this is not a good match for the new reciever, yet features seem very similar -- http://www.hometheater.com/content/rotel-rsx-1562-av-receiver9

"The requested page could not be found."

http://www.hometheater.com/content/rotel-rsx-1562-av-receiver

Don't know how the "9" got on the URL ...

Here is a fresher review of the Rotel, http://hometheaterreview.com/rotel-rsx-1562-av-receiver-reviewed/ Interesting that the HT.com reviewer has issues with the sound while the HTR.com reviewer did not...

Thanks for the correction and new link. I don't keep up with reviewers' reputations, so don't know which of HT or HTR would carry more weight. I found this interesting from the HTR review: "there is no automatic room correction featured on the RSX-1562, a potential deal-breaker for those who use this as a crutch. It's worth noting, however, that a measuring tape, an SPL meter and some patience will generally net better results."
I'm not interested in receivers anyway, but that Rotel is a looker.

Good Lord. For $2500, I can think of a very long list of alternatives that I'd consider first.

Form the HTR review:

That and no headphone jack adds up to a fail in my book, at any price.

-John

To be fair, we should stick to the Outlaw processor for this string of posts. To the casual observer it could appear that the 975 is being discussed and some could get the wrong impression of it before it is even on the street. We can easily create a new thread to cover reviews of off brand equipment.