978 Dead

Wow, well I guess thats that then

Sad news for Outlaw...

LQQK

That's a real horror story - I feel bad for everyone who was waiting for the Model 978 (including myself, as I was looking forward to hearing the 978), but I feel bad for the team at Outlaw, too. For folks like Scott who have been actively involved in the design, to get so close to the end and see the product killed due to forces outside their control? That has to be really hard to swallow.

I would love to know who the other company was

This is really too bad. This is a huge blow, I'm sure that many that were waiting now are able to move on to their next purchase. I was really pulling for them. It is really a horror story when you consider how close it was to come to market according to the announcement.

I really wish Outlaw the best on the processor front.

:-(

I'm fully, 100% in agreement with you. Unfortunately, it's probably a futile desire, but it would be nice to know which company to boycott.

From the way the story was described, it sure seems like there should be some sort of legal recourse for Outlaw, no? Surely there were contracts that were broken. To have the development and manufacturing completely and abruptly abandoned and to be left with a fraction of the product's IP with no way to finish its development seems really strange. I'm not suggesting some other conspiracy, it just seems weird that that's the end of the story.

It was very strategic to pull this move when the 978 "was ready to be submitted for formal approvals". Their timing (the competitor's) meant to cause maximum damage.

I got an email this morning from a friend with the same thought - wondering what company he should be boycotting now. I'd be surprised if we ever know, as I don't see Outlaw ever offering up the name.

As Outlaw's letter points out, there is inevitably going to be some discussion of conspiracy theories. Was the Model 978 a complete work of fiction, with this improbably tale a way to end its existence? That makes no sense to me, though. There's no benefit to Outlaw in this situation. They've got no readily available substitute (except the AV7005, which they've been offering for over a year now), so they can't simply "switch" people over to an alternative of some sort. The entry-level product isn't going to ship until late this year or early next year and is targeted at a different customer base, so this announcement does nothing to help steer sales to that product. If the announcement of the Model 978's death and the entry-level unit's birth had been simultaneous, that would be potential fodder for a conspiracy theory, but it would still be a pointless conspiracy for Outlaw to carry out. Besides, they have photographic proof that hardware samples of the Model 978 exist, including a faceplate and rear panel that are unique designs and internals that go along with that rear panel.

Gonk, good to see you visiting this forum again.
The announcement was well written. Despite the major setback, they took the high road by not disclosing who the other "north american company" was. Nothing good could have been gained from that. With that being said, I am very curious about the potential new offering. I had there other "entry level" pre/pro the 970 with all the quirks, but it did sound very good when it did work and I figured out the quirks. I am pretty sure the new offering will be an improvement without too many quirks.

Hopefully we will see more information on the new product.

Interesting point. Pretty Machiavellian, too, if the timing was planned. Frankly, though, any time during or after 2011 would have been damaging. What would have happened if the other company had waited six months to do this and the first production run was sitting in a warehouse in Massachusetts? Or, possibly even weirder, what if the first production run had been at the factory, waiting to go into a cargo container?

Is this the beginning of the end for Outlaw? I mean without a major product, they really don't have anything besides reselling other manufacturers products. My 950 died last year but I still have my old outlaw amp that I bought with my 950 but I don't have a processor for it so it isn't hooked up. Without a top of the line processor coming any time soon from Outlaw I'll be forced to go else where.

It is not the beginning of the end.

Outlaw has many great products other than a processor. Unfortunately, it is a major blow to what would have been one of their main products. I can't imagine the sunk costs involved, but I have faith that they will grow from this huge set back.

+1: I sympathize with Peter and Outlaw. I genuinely believe they believe in their mission to offer high performance/price ratio AV products and given the circumstances Peter conveyed in his message, beyond breach of contract I would imagine compensation would also be due for development costs to date plus opportunity loss. The problem may lie in recovering from a Chinese firm however.

I just completed a DIY, PC-based prepro as a stop-gap solution until the the 978 was released (I'm not considering Emotiva's pending prepro due to the foolish choice of a single HDMI output-especially given the product's price point). Fortunately, my ad-hoc prepro has performed beyond expectations so I'm going to stick with it for the foreseeable future. I mention this because I'm toying with the idea of bringing a more refined version of this to market at low scale. Given Outlaw's result with the 978, I will resist using Chinese parts and labor as much as possible for my project. Given the nature of electronics manufacturing these days bypassing Chinese components will probably be close to impossible, but given the highly modular nature of PC components, I can at least mitigate exposure. It's not a question of Chinese capability. Rather I'm concerned about legal recourse if something like this happens to me.

Godspeed Outlaw-I wish your company the very best going forward.

I don't think it has to be. They have been without an in-house surround processor for several years now. Reselling the Onkyo 866 and the couple Marantz models has provided an option for customers, and that ties in well with their amp business (which remains strong, I think, and still offers some unique value). An entry-level processor could be a really nice successor to the spirit of the Model 950, especially if it offers strong sound quality. Frankly, the feature sets of the higher-end units ($1,500 price range) has gotten so overwhelming that there's probably a growing market for simpler and good quality.

I don't think so. Though the loss of the 978 will hurt Outlaw for sure, they still make relevant, high-value electronics-especially in the categories of amplifiers and subwoofers.

I've been following the development of the 978 as a replacement for my main system's aging Anthem AVM 30 and possibly for my bedroom's 990. No one liked the delays but the death knell being rung due to a cojone-less competitor is truly disappointing.

At some point the true name of Pusillanimous Inc. will come out and I'll ensure that none of their products ever darken my door. Business is business but killing a competitor's product at the end of it's development cycle is petty and contemptible. Kudos to the Outlaws for taking the high road but I prefer the nuke and pave approach. If I ever meet the head poltroon of Pusillanimous Inc.'s namby-pamby department we'll be playing a game of Rochambeau with me going first.

As far as my needs go you have hit the nail on the head.Give me HDMI connections and high quality DAC's and I,m good.That and a low price and there is a lot of potential here.

Sorry Outlaw, this project was pulled unsuspectingly and unfairly. This must hurt, especially when you were so close to completion.

I would like to hear from the other company, get their side of the story, but as it stands now, the timing of their actions certainly screams calculated and deliberate.

I am excited about the new entry level processor which is something I have advocated for in the past. I think it will be a big seller if it comes to market as a low cost alternative. Concentrate on sound quality rather than features, folks in these parts will eat that up.

-Bob

Agree 100%

This is the time for Outlaw to rethink their niche.

Integra or Denon?

Purely speculative on my part of course, but I was thinking the same thing. Specifically, I was thinking D&M Holdings which owns the Denon and Marantz brands among others.

It would be odd for it to be D&M Holdings when Outlaw's still selling Marantz products. Plus D&M uses more than purely a brick & mortar distribution network. Same with Integra, if only because their parent company (Onkyo) would be the one calling shots like this.

To me, Outlaw not having a legal claim to the 978 design documentation is all-telling. I wonder if there were any valid contracts in place at all- other than perhaps a manufacturing agreement.

The Outlaw e-mail tries to make it sound like they were unwitting victims of a circumstance with no possible [or desirable] recourse. Sounds like there are several serious lessons to be learned [by Outlaw] here.

I would think a smaller company, perhaps one that is bringing a product to market soon. Could it be Anthem?

Like many others I had been waiting and waiting for the 978. I am in the process of moving and wanted a Pre/pro with HDMI and some other features.

Last week I decided I could no longer wait and ordered an Onkyo 5508, in fact it is supposed to be delivered today. I got a hell of a deal on it.

I will refrain from putting on paper the number of "blame/conspiracy" theories running thru my brain at this time. Hopefully more detailed info will become available.

You right this does seem odd. Peter is certainly experienced, there must be more to the story. Perhaps there was a settlement? I wonder if the beta testers will be allowed to speak out at some point? -Bob

Very sad news. As I posted about one month ago, I had serious doubts as to whether the 978 would be brought to market because of the competing new Marantz processors that are under way. But I was not expecting the 978 to be cancelled under such a conspiratorial real life scenario. From my perspective, I'll now be patiently waiting a few more months for the new Marantz offerings (AV7007 and hopefully AV8007).

Nice to see you again around here Gonk although I wish it were under more enjoyable circumstances. Damn, I was convinced you were part of the beta testers. I guess I was wrong...

Hats off to Peter & Co. for being so upfront about what went on...it sort of explains the lengthy silences, and leaves us rooting for Outlaw to make a comeback in the pre-pro world. I was one of those who bought a "last year's model" Marantz as a hedge on an eventual 978. Best of luck to all at Outlaw; I still use and love my Outlaw amps (755, 200's, now vintage stuff!), loved my old Outlaw rcvr/pre-pros (1050,950,990) and hope that their entry-level offering is a hit!

I feel bad for the Outlaw guys but man they have had some really poor business practices of late. Even before all this happened with the competitor, they still basically refused to give updates except for maybe twice a year. There were people posting on here that they would never use Outlaw again and others that remained loyal that were begging for some kind of update and still couldn't get one for months at a time. I posted in the ICBM-2 forum months ago asking for something as far as news goes on this, and I got no response, and still haven't. I'm in the restaurant business and appreciate and need every customer I can get. I sell $4 hamburgers. A customer for these guys spends $500 to several thousand dollars. I can't believe Outlaw were letting customers walk out their door all over a simple monthly update. I also wonder why they can't get their product's information that would allow them to go to another manufacturer. I don't believe in silly conspiracy theories and all that. It seems to me that these guys just suck at rolling out new products and sucks even worse at picking partners. However, I think a simpler pre-pro will serve them well. XT32 is nice, but Behringer makes high quality parametric eq's for cheap and Room Eq Wizard is free at Home Theater Shack. For those worried about the dual sub eq'ing capabilities of XT32, a Marantz SR5005, a 2 channel Behringer Feedback Destroyer, the microphone and sound card needed for measurement, can be had for well under $1,000. Not to mention the education you'll receive from manually tweaking you're system. The 978 would have been well beyond that price point. You can also get 2 Velodyne SMS-1's and a Marantz SR5005 or Denon, for around $1500. Don't know what the price point was going to be on the 978 but I couldn't imagine it being cheaper than that. Modern pre-pro's seem to be the big leagues of home theater manufacturing and Outlaw obviously isn't there yet.

You're talking about CHINA. If the contract was with the Chinese manufacturer, they effectively have no recourse. Even if they try to enforce a contract and win, the judgments tend to be small and unenforceable. It would be like getting a debt judgement against someone and having the local marshal telling you to get lost when you try to enforce an asset seizure or collection attempt. Happens ALL the time in China. It's really the law of the jungle. Whoever has the deepest pockets and/or the support of the local political cadres calls the shots.

Now if Outlaw had any legal leg to stand on (don't know if they do or don't), it's always possible to go after the "big north American company" in a court in north America. I'm sure some bean counter will sort out the cost/benefit analysis of that route, if it's even open to them, and they'll proceed how they must.

I don't think anyone is getting their jollies over this event.

Best,

As far as who the NA manufacturer is, it can only be a handful. Someone who is close to releasing a new model. Compare the back end of the 978 to a few different upcoming models and it will become plain enough. It will come out who it is soon enough and they will have to face up to their actions. Too bad for Outlaw, it looks like the shut down was timed to hurt them as well.

"Things without all remedy
Should be without regard: what's done, is done." --- Shakespeare

Tough break for the Outlaws...but it's time to move on.

I'm looking forward to possibly replacing my excellent 1070 with their newly announced entry level processor coupled with a 1075 amp. Being budget-minded my aging AV room sofa will be first though

-John

My condolences. This is like being pregnant for so long and when the time is near to bear the child and had to abort, very painful indeed to take. There is that little glitter of hope to look forward to for the just announced secret new product.

I agree this was timed to hurt, or it sure looks that way but I would enjoy reading the other side of the story.

I also beleive Outlaw wants us all to know the name, or they would not have given the "North American" clue. -Bob

As far as the other side of the story goes...it isn't that far fetched to imagine a Chinese partner that didn't think the 978 was going to result in significant sales (pick your reason) and decided that they'd bet on a horse that could keep their workers working in a more steady/predictable manner. This is a much more likely explanation, but we'll never know unless the name(s) of the various players are brought to light. If the name(s) come out, it's only going to take a phone call or two to independently sort out what happened (which isn't to say that the version posted by Peter isn't the gospel truth).

Let's face it...the 978 wasn't going to sell well at all, especially given the delay in reaching the market. While I'm sure a lot of time/sweat went into the 978, this is likely to turn out to be the more merciful outcome for Outlaw. I'm not sure what they hope to accomplish by selling a cheap processor. That market segment is packed to the gills already and packed with competitors who have a lot more to spend on R&D and manufacturing. *shrug*

Best,

The fact that a (presumeably) large 'North American' company felt threatened enough by the 978 to pressure the Chinese factory indicates that they felt the 978's sales voluume would have been significant. I know Peter has said that there was a lot of interest going back to the 997.

There may be a lot of budget priced receivers currently on the market, but very few processors at the 978's price (and none with it's feature set, i.e. XT32).

I bet it sells pretty well. I could be wrong but most folks here are enthusiasts and extremely brand loyal. Just the fact that so many have waited years to purchase an unseen/unproven processor is proof of loyalty. Although I will admit that discussing and dreaming about new equipment is 90% of the fun of any hobby. That aside, the key is to produce a product for the poor man audiophile since I am sure there are more poorer than rich man audiophiles. The poor man audiophile wants separates. One reason it is just fun. Imagine the pleasure of showing off your gear and stating that I have an Outlaw, explaining about separates and no you can’t find that brand at the local B&M. I use the pre-outs of my low cost yam into my Outlaw amp. It sounds fine but having seperates would be that much cooler but for me it needs to be low cost.

I read about these high end processors from boutique brands, most of them have minimal feature sets compared to even low end receivers but carry huge price tags. Typically the reviewer writes about how the company focused on sound quality rather than features and folks nod their heads in agreement and pluck down the cash. (I certainly don’t believe there is much difference in sound quality between products at any price point. I bet many pro reviewers could not tell the difference in a blind test, nor is there any objective lab measurement that can tell the difference?) If Outlaw comes along with a low cost “sound quality” focused product, enthusiasts here will eat that up. Outlaw also has the tech support and the community support of their products which is also a big plus to the enthusiast. I think it will sell just fine to this crowd.

-Bob

The market segment is packed to the gills with entry-level receivers that shed performance to squeeze in features. The surround processor market is fairly empty in that price range, and a fundamentally sound unit with Outlaw-quality sound will likely appeal to a fair number of people. It won't be enough to steal customers from the folks who are trying to decide between Model 978, the Marantz AV7005 replacement, or an Anthem, but I think there's a niche there to fill. Had it existed alongside the Model 978, the two could have been a nice one-two punch for the "sweet spot" of processor consumers. Taken by itself, the new unit could still prove successful.

Ain't seen it, haven't heard it, and don't believe it. Welcome back Gonk!! Not much to talk about these days now that we have entered than land of Mordor where the Evil Ones have cancelled the One Ring.

I posted a list not long ago of 3 different Onkyo AVR's with Audyssey XT32 ranging in price from $999 to $1350. And they all were much more full featured than the specs quoted for the 978. It's not a big stretch of the imagination to think that we'll be seeing XT32 in more sub $1000 AVRs soon. And as long as those AVR's have pre-outs....they're effectively processors.

Best,

Yep, just about as useful as this sort of grouping:

Two recent vintage fun to drive imported coupes

My sincerest best wishes,

your pal

Angling for top necropheliac position there, eh? LOL I guess we should be glad you've graduated from poop jokes. I can understand your frustration. I'm sure it's disappointing that your analysis of the situation (in hindsight) was consistently wrong, while others seemed to call it pretty accurately.

*shrug*

Time to move on, pal.

Best,

I have to agree with Ritz. I think at that price point the consumers buying a processor or an AVR are mostly after features than SQ. Furthermore at a circa $1K price point, it's much more difficult to build a processor that will produce much better SQ than an AVR. The difference in SQ will most likely be marginal and then you're left to compete on features with the likes of Denon/Marantz and Onkyo/Integra... good luck!

Onkyo is putting a LOT of price pressure on. The Onkyo TX-NR818 has XT32 and is now selling on Amazon for $859.

It's even UL listed! :-)

Best,

I suggested to Peter that a leak of the American company's name would be a good thing - so that we could boycott the brand and tell our friends and families and spread the word on the 'net. That could possibly cause that company to rethink its action and allow the manufacturer to continue the 978. Only significant public pressure and media stories will convince an unethical company to change a decision. Isn't Sherwood an American company?

I agree, the manufacturer dropped it in favor of the other company. I don't think Outlaw owes either anything to keep their silence.

I still suspect that the offending company will be outed by its own product. We have pictures of the rear of the 978. The offending component will have a back end that is quite similar to the 978's. It will also be a North American based company. There are only a handful of those, no?

I think Hank was surreptitiously giving us the name:

" I suggested to Peter that a leak of the American company's name.....Only significant public pressure and media stories will convince an unethical company to change a decision. Isn't Sherwood an American company?"

So that would mean Sherwood is dropping Trinnov. We will see I guess.

Sherwood isn't an American company. They are an American brand owned by a Korean company.

I was just asking; however, I think the key is "American brand". The average consumer probably thinks Sherwood is an American company. Anyway, it's a guess and has no basis in fact.

The average consumer (at least one who has heard of Sherwood recently, which probably rules out a lot of consumers since they're something of a niche brand these days) might think of Sherwood as an American company, but Outlaw knows otherwise because they've worked extensively with Sherwood's parent company. Also, Sherwood would not have the leverage to do what was done to the Model 978 - I don't think they have enough product volume to exert influence like that, and what they do have is built by their parent company. That would be the company that was supposed to build the Model 997, before Outlaw changed partners to develop the Model 978. That means Sherwood's manufacturing partner is the one factory we KNOW wasn't going to be building the Model 978.

One wonders if that may be the factory building the new 975. Sherwood has a vaporware description for a model R-977 on their website that if converted to a pre-pro only offering (like the 990 and 997) would fit the little we know about the 975.

I can certainly see these two former partners deciding that life together had advantages for both.

Yes, Gonk, in the consumer electronics world, Serwood is small volume, but so are most of the other brands that folks here are guessing about. Interesting speculations for sure.

I thought Sherwood was just outside of Nottingham and therefore a natural partner for Outlaws.

They were a natural partner, and based on how the Model 990 turned out I would say a fairly successful partner at one time. Based on the way the Model 997 turned out, though, I would expect them to be an unlikely partner today.

But isn't Sherwood built by the compant that was building the 997.

Yes. That's why I don't see Sherwood being responsible for killing the 978 or being involved in the new entry-level unit.

Outlaw owes the manufacturer and the company that forced the manufacturer to stop nothing. So why not announce who it was if that is truly the real reason. I see no way why they could or would not announce it as both of them gave outlaw and outlaws customers the shaft.

It's a fair comment and no doubt many of us would love to know who the guilty party is.

I suspect, though, that there is a Non-disclosure agreement that Outlaw must sign when entering into a partnership like this. High end companies releasing products for thousands of dollars do not want it known that you can get mostly the same component from an internet direct company for a big discount off the steep price.

Of course this case is somewhat different in that there was a third party involved, the factory. How it was that they were able to bring Outlaw on board for the 978 when either they shouldn't have, or the parent company changed its mind, we will probably never know. But I'm sure the bottom line is that Outlaw was kicked to the curb, and warned not to disclose a thing as per the contract they signed, or there would be lawsuits flying back and forth as everybody lawyered up.

And Joe consumer gets stiffed by the man.

I still think D&M Holdings makes the most sense as the bully. Rationally, D&M has nothing to gain if Outlaw comes out with a 978 and much to lose:
- Outlaw sales of Marantz AVx units
- New competition at a lower price point (for their other retailers)
- An competitor to the online business D&M is considering entering

Nor do they risk much, if Outlaw were to pull its OEM speaker business because D&M has already closed their speaker business.

On the Outlaw side, there certainly is an incentive for Outlaw to keep quiet as they are probably dependent upon Marantz for a signficant portion of their revenue stream.

My immediate first guess was D&M Holding, but I remembered Scott said it was an American brand, and I don't consider D&M brands as American, but Japanese. But perhaps most consider Marantz American? I figured it would have to be a brand with significant clout, which I don't believe any of the other American brands metioned have. So, my next best guess was Sherwood. Hopefully, we'll find out the truth and spread it across the 'net and see what happens. I'll not worry any more and just see what the 975 specs will be.

D&M was a Japanese company, but they were acquired by Bain Capital in 2008 thus making them an American company. To the best of my knowledge, they are now a whole owned sub of Bain and headquartered in NJ.

They also substantially fit the B&M description.

Some of Outlaw's silence could be corporate politics. Outlaw has business relationships with a lot of companies, and will have to negotiate new partnerships in the future. They got burned with the Model 978, due to a partner and a third party that they (as far as we know) had no direct ties to. They were open about the situation with their customers, but they didn't "name names" publicly. That shows that they can be professional even when others are not. This could win them points in future negotiations.

Yeah, but the "Denon" half of D&M sells very heavily online, and the "Marantz" half of D&M has an existing partnership (still in place) to let Outlaw act as an authorized online dealer. I would not consider Denon to be a "brick and mortar" brand these days, even if Marantz is still heavily focused in that direction. Based on all of that, I have a hard time seeing D&M being involved in the Model 978's demise.

According to Peter T, it was a company headquartered in North America, so the obvious implication is that it could be a Canadian company.

Seriously, why does it matter?

I have laid out probably half a dozen theories as to how this happened / why the other party decided to pressure the overseas fabrication firm and at the end of all such speculation it STILL does not make me want to deliberately attempt to "torpedo" the competitor (as there are precious few choices in audio products right now) NOR does it make me want to seek out this firm as a possible "replacement" for the 978 -- it almost certainly is NOT the same kind of value proposition...

I agree.

Some may laugh but, my guess is Harman.

How about Bryston as the culprit? They are a North American company. They do offer two multi channel processors (SP2 and SP3) but they do seem like a low volume brand.