Ready by Christmas?

I apologize up front if this has already been discussed in a previous thread. In absence of any current information from Outlaw, what's everybody’s best guess on availability of the 998? Any chance by Christmas 2010?

It would seem that with the absence of even one update since the announcement (unless I missed something), the chances are slim to none, and Slim just left town...

That's a great question; one that a lot of us are thinking about.

The 998 was announced on 3/12, just about six months ago. At the time, it was stated that it would be available before the end of the year. We haven't heard much since then.

One encouraging sign, is that they had asked for special beta testers a couple of months ago. While it wasn't explicitly stated that it was for the 998, the description in the email seemed to fit. If that's the case, we could be on track to see it by the end of the year, as long as testing goes well.

Where does that leave us? Beats me. It would be nice to get some kind of an update. All we seem to be hearing about are new processors/receivers from other manufacturers. I'd rather hear what Outlaw is going to be offering themselves.

Scott

I don't know that the invitation for beta testing was much of a pointer as to what gear was involved, but since I knew I would not have the required time / availability to perform the testing and report back in the time required I did not respond to it. Of course had I done so, I would have been bound by confidentiality provisions from posting anything about the test, which is why, perhaps, certain other members may not be jumping on this thread with their own opinions.

In any case I'm sure that the Outlaws will get it right this time - in due time.

Didn't the 998 used to be on the "Products" page of the web site? I don't see it any more.

I signed up for the beta test but was not selected. I recall reading in another thread that Outlaw currently has five (and possibly six) products under development that are unique to Outlaw. The 998, I presume is at the top of that list!

Tkntz, I believe you are right. I too recall seeing it on the products page about the same time as the initial announcement back in March I think? Not sure if that means anything.
I agree an update is most certainly warranted; the 6 month milestone has come and gone.

I was also not chosen for beta testing. I wonder who was? Can they even say they are, even if they dont disclose and other info?

It probably depends on the NDA. With the OPPO Digital betas I've done, I usually couldn't even mention the existence of the beta test publicly - the only exception was the BDP-83 after they announced that there was to be an "early adopter program" that placed a bunch of players in the hands of customers who were not subject to NDA, at which point the beta testers could speak publicly about anything that was known to EAP participants. By then we'd been testing for four or five months.

Maybe that is a good sign.
If I remember right the picture was of a 990 anyway so maybe they are about ready to post a "prototype" picture in its place.

I don't recall seeing it on the products page, but there was a picture posted here, in conjunction with the original announcement.

Scott

Do we know that the beta testers selection process is over? I replied (a couple of times) and never heard back. I just assumed that hadn't got things rolling yet.

If they have got things rolling, I'm bummed I didn't get to participate but that is a positive sign of progress.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that it's not gonna happen by Christmas this year. We are just about 2 months away from the full on holiday shopping season. You'd think they'd be chumming the water by now, no?

I hope I'm wrong.

What I remember was the "997" link was changed to "997/998" and then it disappeared completely quite a while ago. (I think)

The following is pure speculation on my part (WAG): I suspect the selection process for Beta testers (including signed NDA’s) was wrapped up in July. Beta testers were probably shipped a unit sometime in early August. They will shake out the bugs by late October/ November. Outlaw may not ship any production units in 2010 but my guess is they will at least take preliminary orders before the year is out. The 998 should be on the street by February/March 2011.

I don't think we know for sure what the status of the beta test is.

I don't think we know for sure what the status of the beta test is.[/quote]

Outlaw is not saying anything and Beta testers would be under a NDA, so…Yes we do not know for sure. Anyone not included in the afore mentioned group can only speculate. Keeping my fingers crossed for sooner rather than later.

I did not respond to the invitation to become a beta tester because I assumed it would be the 998 and I would not have had time to properly integrate such a device into my very complex set-up, nor would I have had time to put it through its paces, in the time period that they were looking for.

However if the Outlaws have a need for beta testing of something "simple" like a new sub (or four!) or (fingers crossed) an H-PAS-based speaker system, they don't even have to invite me. Just send the NDA. I'll sign. And then send me the gear! Hint, hint.

I know I would not have been able to test a new pre-pro adequately. Replacing my Onkyo in my system with something that may not be fully functional. I would also have had little input on the Trinnov ware because my room is already set as far as speaker placement due to WAF. If I were already living in my other home then I would have been able to spend the effort to really test the 998 out.

I'm outlaw #85, bought the original pre/pro and I did not receive a beta test email invitation.

It would be nice to get an update. I am in the market to a new processor with advanced room correction (either Trinnov or Audyssey MultEQ XT 32). The Denon 4311 looks very interesting, though I would rather go Outlaw if possible. Hopefully we will hear something soon!

I last visited the Outlaw site Sep 5th, 2009. Here we are a year later and still nothing. Very disapointing. I receive the email updates offering products from other companys but come on Outlaw, please get it done.

I will leave the same message as I did last year:

I will check back in a few months, and hope that things have moved forward. Just some suggestions, the new NFL and collage football season is starting, Fall fishing is picking up and bowling season has already started in some areas. Find something to do, cause it still might be a long while for sure. Hope i do not have to leave the same again next year.

It is starting to look bad. It seems like the only thing the Outlaws are doing lately is pushing out receivers (not their hardware), returns, and overstock speakers which may be a sign they are going under. I certainly hope not! I for one have been hanging on with my 950 for more than a few years now and I am ready to release cash; but time has almost run out - not sure how much longer I can holdout. Since the beta apparently happened several months back, I really hope they are still a go and the 998 available by Thanksgiving will be a good news spike to get the Holiday spirits going. I do know that general availability of electronic components has become a real problem lately with 20 - 40 week lead times not uncommon. I hope that is not their problem now. Maybe they are just stocking the warehouse today in preparation for the big announcement. I say (the obvious) - if you don't have your dreams, what have you got?

So that there is no confusion, I want to let everyone know that the product currently under beta testing is as important as a new processor, but it is not the Model 998. As we've stated previously, we are working on a number of new products. As for our our processor plans we will have an update for you in the next few weeks.

Peter

An update will go along way for those of us who are faithfully holding out. Thanks

At this point Trinnov looks like poison to everyone who touches it.

I think Outlaw would have done better to have convinced Trinnov to let them build a cheaper standalone consumer version that didn't require integrating software -- which I suspect has been what has derailed everyone else.

I'm guessing it will be six to twelve months more, but without 3D crap and full HDMI 1.4 (or is it 1.4a?) that many people will be expecting as most mainstream upper-end units will likely all have by then.

Sad.

My advice, if anyone is listening, is that Outlaw can't possibly help and can only hurt by continuing the policy of holding their cards close to their vest. I think it would only help, and keep the dream alive for those of us who are waiting and would buy the product to share the ups and downs with us in weekly or monthly updates.

I mean get real, who do they think they're fooling at this point? Any future customer knows what Newcastle and Outlaw went through, the delays, more delays, etc., by now.

That cat is long out of the bags guys. If they're worried making announcements that lead to disappointment will cast a black cloud over the product they haven't been following the Trinnov saga as closely as anyone who might buy it. The black cloud is already here, and has been here. Rather than worrying about it Outlaw should start doing something to disperse it.

In my opinion anyway.

Have I understood this right? As of now, the 998 is not even in the beta testing phase?!!

Another year and midrange pre/pros are still off the menu!

Unless it is the 999 in beta testing?

I hope I don’t regret posting this…..

As is obvious by my post count, I am not a regular contributor to this forum, but I am a regular reader/visitor.
In defense of Outlaw : the 998 is a new product and I am unaware of any delays in its release since its announcement. That’s if you don’t see it as the same project as the 997, which was scrapped entirely. I believe Outlaw when they say the 998 is an entirely new product, and as such, is being developed from the ground up largely in-house.
However, that’s about the only slack I can cut them.
Peter T…I am a card carrying, banner waiving fan of Outlaw Audio. I have recommended your products to family and friends who are equally as enthusiastic about your past products. Frankly, however, I find myself increasingly frustrated and discouraged at the complete lack of new, innovative, fair priced, mid level audio components from Outlaw.
If I want mass produced, over priced, under achieving products like Marantz, Denon, etc. I’ll go to Best Buy. We as audio consumers have a vast array of choices when it comes to speakers, subs, DVD players, displays, furniture, ipod accessories, cables, etc. If what is being beta tested is any of those things, big deal. It will only add to an already long list of what we already have to choose from. It will not be “as important as a new processor” for those of us waiting for a new processor.
What many of us do lack is a pre-pro with the features and quality at a price point that Outlaw is known for.
Clearly, this is a huge undertaking as is evidenced by a void in this area. And not only by Outlaw. The audio industry is littered with failed attempts (Sherwood), abandoned attempts (Parasound), and some limited successes that you will pay dearly for (Anthem). It must be wildly difficult to get this right.
Has our desire for features and capabilities gone beyond our technological ability to produce them? If that’s the case, then that is what we should be told.
Oppo unveiled their new DVD player at CEDIA with a release scheduled for November. That’s reasonable. 5 years for a new pre-pro with no end in sight? That’s unreasonable.
And, as I’ve learned from visiting the Saloon for many years, “we will have an update for you in the next few weeks” means an update by Christmas, not a product.

Since I am not in the market for 3D and am completely satisfied with my current equipment, I don't have a dog in this race, BUT, if I did, I would be anxious about the status of the 998 since it has been way too long since the last update. The 998 was promised by the end of the year and if that promise is not kept, I fear the saloon will be in a ghost town with a few tumbleweeds blowing in the background. I am glad Outlaw did not bring out the 997 in a vain attempt to make some of us happy while killing the market for most. Sherwood is paying the price for pushing the 972 out too fast.

I have several pieces of Outlaw gear which is still under warranty and would hate to see the company go belly up and not be able to support any issues I might have. I am glad Outlaw offered the Onkyo PR-SC886 when they did because I was ready to but the 997 if it had been on the market. Trinnov may be a game changer for some but how much better can it be than the Audyssey systems already out there.

I think I hear a bell tolling somewhere. Hopefully its for my currently gimpy Rotel processor and not the prospects of the 998.

I gotta be honest, I'm not encouraged.

Oh NO!! Thanks for the note Peter, but that is the worst news I have heard in a long time. I am truely depressed - NO 998 for Christmas (Ok, how about a 999?) Yikes - another sweater and a few pair of socks - not exciting. While I understand the challenges of designing and delivering electronic equipment today (having done it many times), I must agree with other comments on the forum. The 998 - a NEW "super signal processor" - is the most important thing you guys do. It is (I would argue) your premier product. Where is it?? Amplifiers are good, speakers are nice, receiver(s) (Uh-wha-t) - but multi-channel decoding, EQ and "big time" signal processing for movies at home is "The Outlaw" I would argue. So tuck it in, square it up, and kick it out!
(Now if it is only a couple more months away - nevermind - I take it all back - where do I sign?)

While I am very satisfied with my 990 the initial excitement for the event of the 997 coming out of the Outlaw Vault had me saving my change in the chance that I would want to make a step up....not a lateral move.
The 3D agenda does not interest me in the least. The idea of of watching movies with glasses does not make me more incline to watch more movies or spend the extra money for 3d movies.
When technology moves into the arena of watching 3D movies without glasses I will be the first in line.
Besides how many 3D movies in one day can someone watch while wearing those glasses without getting a headache.
As far as room equalization my B&W 804's sound fine with the SPL meter I purchased from Radio Shack.
Not to mention the thunder roar from those JL Audio subs.
So how much sound quality am I missing.

With the demise of the 997 and the introduction for plans of the 998 I thank Outlaw for taking its' time so I can reevaluate my necessity for having to drop my 990 for an upgrade.

Myself, I am not interested in a processor from Marantz, or cables from Perfect Path....
I want to see products from Outlaw.

I echo this statement.

Perfectly said!!

Hoping that the OutLaws will have the 998 out between Thanksgiving and Christmas. Have read everything I can find, looks doubtful though........I am holding off just to see at the moment. Really not interested in 3D but would like to have the upgraded unit of 1.4 or 1.4A. Guess I'll make the decision shortly before Christmas if no more updates appear.

Got the bug for a newer unit and looking Rotel 15 series and Pioneer sc27 to go with.......Fingers crossed....Cmon OutLaw.

I do hope that the Outlaws realize that if we weren't all rooting for them we wouldn't still be coming round here and offering what, from what I can tell from most everybody, is constructive criticism.

*Yawn*

So how 'bout those Yankees?

The Yankees and the 998 have at least one thing in common, everyone is pulling for them in October no matter what the odds are.

LOL!! Touche

I am very disappointed with the wait for a new pre pro. My 990 died tonight and I was hoping to replace it in February of 2010! I watched a movie this afternoon and it was working fine but tonight she just won't start. I hit the on button, the blue light comes on, a couple of relays click and she just shuts off. There is no 990 forum that I see so I am posting here for ideas. I unplugged her and let her sit but nothing. It is not overheated. I really wish we had some news of a future product but as it stands I may just give up on an outlaw product. A nice inexpensive Yamaha receiver might be a better alternative. This is just poor timing.. Sigh, it is still under warranty as I got her in Feb of 06. The question becomes is it really worth getting it fixed when a 400 receiver gives you pre outs with all the new codec's? So you can all wax poetic about Outlaw being the greatest but I am not seeing that right now. This place is far more quiet then when I used to poke around in 06.. Looks like they are losing fans.

Exactly.

Scroll down the forums page and there is a section for discontinued products, including the 990.

However, I'd just call the outlaws. I'm sure they can help.

Yes, the 998 is overdue. Fortunately, my 950 still works. I'm hoping Peter's upcoming 998 status update has some good news.

The reason I came back to the Saloon today is to look for a thread like this. I get the Outlaw promotional emails at two different accounts. I heard about the 997, though I wasn't as affected by it as I haven't changed to Pre/Pro. Yet. But the failure of the 997 project and the abundance of reselling was definitely seen by me as a harbinger of sorts, and one I felt a little sad about, if I'd found evidence of my 1st favorite audio company struggling.

I believe that Outlaw has found themselves in a bit of a quandry. A company cannot likely sustain themselves on one product, and if they have to, the market has to permit this and their engineering/development needs to be SPOT ON to pull off something as big as bringing a really good product to the consumer and make a profit. R&D is expensive and risky and you need investors to do get something moving. To do this on a smaller scale of economy, while still inventing something as unique as traditional Outlaw products, you have to really have your A game, and the demand has to be there.

Those of us who come here frequently or at all, represent what I believe to be a relatively small demographic. It grew during the boom time, but I think people are less likely to take chances with their money and may lean towards more "stable" brands that don't need to be id'd. We know who they are, we may have bought from them recently in fact.

I have always like the idea of a small American outfit putting their heads together to appease those of us who like Outlaw-type products. China's amazingly aggressive rise in global industry in general, could not have helped Outlaw if their business model did not adjust. Outfits like Emotiva have put a candle to Outlaw. I'm not saying that they make better equipment. I have no experience with it firsthand. But they attract budding audiophiles (and the older crowd) like moths to a nightlight. Whether or not people like their offerings, people are actively discussing them, trying them out, driving interest and sales to a degree. Just like Outlaw used to do. But the game's changed. Technology that is driven ever moreso by software - and tied directly to the development of quickly changing specs (read: HDMI nightmare), and integrating that spec, software, to your software, makes life pretty tough for an outfit like Outlaw.

The fact is that the Model 1070 that I own would make a lot of people unhappy at times. I believe the 970 had a similar set of issues. Some would contend that the last great Outlaw integrated AV receiver was neither, despite the reviews you see about both. The word got out that they were buggy. I saw past it on most days. I still love my Model 1070. She's a beauty and when she's working, she sounds oh so nice. But the masses wouldn't accept it. Outlaw produced, to me, the AV equivalent of a V-22 Osprey. (Google if you don't know what I mean. In short, somewhat revolutionary, genius, loved by its users, but problematic and at times attracting bad publicity.) In short, a game changer that had it's fair share of problems - some serious. I lurked on the 970 board to see similar problems there too. I think to some degree this may have hurt Outlaw a little bit. I also think that the issues they had were fully recognized as problems they'd care not to repeat, at the risk of really losing a grip on their supporters, so they're trying very hard to make sure they get it right this time. I wonder how much they really profited on the 970 considering the ridiculously low prices they fetched towards the end of their heyday. They seemed late to market and as I said, shared similar QA problems.

Software, among other parts of the development pie, is EXTREMELY hard to get right when you are dependent on parts over which you do not have all the control (design-wise and schedule wise; ahem. Sherwood.) I doubt anyone outside of Outlaw knows the full story, but I can sympathize. I work in software and have labored for years on a project that is struggling. BADLY. I don't know if we'll make it. I want us to. BADLY. But that's not enough. Wanting to produce something that works great doesn't resolve vendor problems. It doesn't resolve unreasonable or uncharacteristic (of the company mantra) demands by investors who want to be paid back quickly. It doesn't resolve the fact that the mass population of people are obsessed with BS wattage numbers, HDMI 1.4a, and electro-gizmo room correction, etc etc. I honestly don't care if my receiver does upconversion. I'm not saying Outlaw's fans collectively don't care, but the requirements they're supposed to meet have, in my mind, been drastically expanded and I can easily see why a.) Outlaw might be stretched out or forced to work faster than to what they're accustomed, and b.) it's harder to keep up with the product life cycle of their competition who seem to have comparitively endless R&D money and the flexibility to change products on the fly. I guess my point is, a.) Software is a difficult business, more than people who are not IT might realize. And b.)I see more software bugs across all my gadgetry, than I ever remember seeing, which highlights that software is changing faster and faster, QA for software is a very young science, and the "people" demand more and more functionality at a dizzyingly increased rate.

If I had my way, I'd forgo trinnov, I'd forgo HDMI completely (unless they got rid of the bullsh*t DRM pretense), and I'd be interested in one thing and one thing only - a quality pre/pro or integrated that was made by a bunch of geeks like me - to function without error, to sound wonderful and have tons of simple tweaks built into it (analog bass management still makes me smile), and the ability to be both a movie hub and a place to listen to music and make the Yamaha/Denon/Sony owners go green with envy in the simplicity of the build and beauty of the sound reproduction. Look nice. Look unique. Sound great. Allow me to add to it, tweak it, savor it. Enable me to join a small-ish community of similar minded folks with which are fun to discuss audio/HT. Do so without molesting my wallet. I'm not an business executive, and maybe my utopic vision of what Outlaw could still be is a pipedream. But, maybe not...

Outlaw helped me get my hobby on the right track, even with a somewhat buggy 1070. I was given it as a Christmas gift from my father in law, who I think just wanted to see what Outlaw was all about. I'd never heard of Outlaw, didn't know anything about it until I opened it. When I got it I didn't know the difference between coaxial and toslink. Since then, I've reached a new level of understanding and more importantly I've got this insatiable appetite to expand my horizons in the music listening world. But MOST importantly, I'm doing this still looking for the "best values on the internet" to this day. Owning a 1070 taught me that good companies make good products and are brave enough to battle giants and accomodate the sort of people who care more than the average about value, quality, and uniqueness. It started the day I cracked open the 1070 manual and I knew instantly that this company and this product were different. I'm more than a little bummed that they appear to be struggling. I love the RR2150 and I will probably buy one soon. But that's all I see right now...

I read Peter Tribeman's post earlier in this thread, and I applaud his confronting the issue with the truth, at least as much as he can say. He really seems like a roll-up-your-sleeves kind of guy. I hope he has the authority to make this all well again. I'm not meaning to slam anyone that said "Booo" when Peter wrote what he wrote, but if you haven't done so already, stop and consider the fact that, once again!, the head honcho of a small company that produced and still produces quality, major component-type audio gear (I mean actual receivers, amps, speakers) stopped in to address the concerns. They're listening. They're trying hard, that's very obvious to me. I really, REALLY hope that Outlaw pulls the magic rabbit out of the hat. I love winning underdogs as most of us do. Else you wouldn't be here.

Cheers to you all.

A manufacturer like Outlaw couldn't give away a new pre/pro without at least some sort of room correction and full HDMI capability.

I think you have assumed that both Trinnov and the DRM issues associated with HDMI will cause the 998 to be buggy. I'm counting on the Outlaws to get it right.

re Quote 1: Me saying I'd forgo it doesn't mean that I think Outlaw could sell a pre/pro without it. What I was getting at was that despite the clear benefits of the new technology, implementing a system which contains these new features (and perhaps several others) is not simple to do in an aggressive timeline when you walk among giants as competitors, and perhaps trying to please everyone. What made Outlaw different, imho, was their pattern of "less is more" and quality of important features over quantity of less important features. Sure HDMI is great. No need to argue that. But the fact that 3D is part of the latest version, to me, is somewhat of a bad joke to a lot of the original Outlaw crowd. Having 3D spec imposed on you by the masses when you were the same company that righteously rejected the notion of "Jazz/Concert/Hall" music fields is where I'm headed with this. WIth the good comes the bad I guess.

With Trinnov, I'm not entirely sure how easily integrated it was or is. But with anything in systems integration and design, what may seem like a gimme to the people wanting it may be problematic at best, or catastrophic at worst, for a design team whose requirements are changing or you rely on external sources to deliver these great features only to find that they're late and you might be putting the overall system together in half the time you allotted, AND turns out to be much more difficult than originally thought, putting the schedule at risk. I've seen this firsthand in my work. And here, we saw the unfolding drama of the 997. Outlaw is saying they are going to eliminate the external dependency issue by going in house. That too is surely a drama taking place in their company's confines. Hopefully their taking on more of the design and creation process will yield huge benefits for us. To assume it will go bad would be very pessimistic. To count on it going well would be ignoring the 997's history and to some extent, the 970/1070, models that were so close to being perfect but good examples of how important failing to get a couple major kinks out of all the deliverables can undermine what would likely have been perfect products were it not for some software bug(s).

For what it's worth, I'm absolutely 100% pulling for them. No place that I've stumbled into in the AV world like the Saloon where the people keep it civil and educational, and you have guys like Gonk who just seem to "be here" doing what he clearly likes to do - humbly helping all levels of enthusiasts, a real AV philanthropist. I for one hope we're all talking about the next Outlaw receiver/pre pro / stereo preamp soon and can put these worries to rest.

"For what it's worth, I'm absolutely 100% pulling for them. No place that I've stumbled into in the AV world like the Saloon where the people keep it civil and educational, and you have guys like Gonk who just seem to "be here" doing what he clearly likes to do - humbly helping all levels of enthusiasts, a real AV philanthropist. I for one hope we're all talking about the next Outlaw receiver/pre pro / stereo preamp soon and can put these worries to rest."


Right on.
Loyalty means a lot to me...it is a rare commodity now a days.
I understand from a customers' point of view that if your pre/pro is down and unrepairable you cannot wait forever.
However those of us who have a working 990...patience...we already have the BEST...waiting for better should be easy.

It has been a rocky road for the last few years - for Outlaw, and for a number of other companies trying to produce surround processors. They seem to have hung in there with their amps, subs, and speakers, with some help from offering alternatives to an Outlaw processor. Still, I hope that we can see an Outlaw HDMI processor soon. If it happens in time for Christmas, that'd be really cool. If it takes some time past that to get most bugs ironed out, they'd be better served making us wait than trying to make their customers provide beta testing. I also hope there will be ongoing support resources available, as even if they get things really well dialed-in before launch, these things today are complex and there will likely need to be some firmware updates. Anthem does it with their products, as does OPPO Digital.

I wonder if it is possible to make an outboard Audyssey/Trinnov processor? It could take in HDMI or seven channel analog and do the processing and output 7.2. It would make it compatible with a whole slew of older pre-pros and would allow smaller companies to focus more on the audio/video quality voce including every bell and whistle. Many of us are very happy with our gear but want to check out the 998 just for the Trinnov.

It'd be hard to do in the digital domain because most receivers and processors don't have a way of outputting multichannel PCM - much less outputting it and then getting it back (a digital version of "external loop" that stereo receivers used to support separate EQ). You'd just about have to do it by feeding the analog output into a processor that did an A/D conversion, then processing, then D/A conversion.

Kinda like the ICBM did for bass management?? That's a thought.

Why not just have the Spatial Processor output directly to the amp. It would take output from the pre-pro, process it for spatial effects and send it out to the amp analog. With some high quality DACs, it could be a boon for a lot of us.

This is essentially what the ICBM does for bass management (fully analog) and the SMS-1 does for subwoofer EQ (digital EQ, involving A/D/A conversions). I believe that Audyssey and Trinnov both build standalone units that do this sort of thing, but they're prohibitively expensive. You need the box, the power supply, the analog section (eight channels), the A/D converters, the DSP section, the D/A converters, and the interface to operate it all (which will work best with a video output and will require a remote control). It all adds up. One strength of the ICBM was that it was purely an analog device with manual controls, which helped make it more affordable to build.

ADA (Trinnov) just announced at CEDIA three new stand alone consumer processors. They list for $10,000 (4 channel), $12,000 (8 channel), and $15,000 (15 channel).

It's $15,000 for the 12-channel unit. Keep in mind folks, that price is just for ADA's room correction box (using Trinnov EQ). You still have to buy a pre-pro to go with it. For the curious, here is the ADA cut sheet.

A VGA port for video output and a USB port for a mouse - that's convenient for a commercial installation and pretty manageable for a large custom install, but probably not what an average consumer would expect. Of course, no average consumer's going to spend five figures on a product like this in the first place, so that's OK.

Fellow Outlaws and Gunslingers:

On behalf of the Outlaws, I want to thank you for your comments and criticism about us in this thread. In particular we have found the extensive comments by RedslinPA very perceptive. (I wonder if he is bugging the Hideout!)

Developing a fully featured, state of the art surround processor is extremely complex . Indeed, the market for surround processors has become a moving target with everyone struggling to keep up with the changing technology environment for HDMI, connectivity and audio codecs. Yet those of us in this business have no choice but to play the cards we have been dealt, even if they are constantly being re-shuffled in the middle of a hand.

As I promised you last week, here is an update on the Model 998. We waited until now so that we could include information from the in-person meetings the Outlaws held last week during CEDIA Expo in Atlanta with our processor design team. With those meetings now complete, we can provide you with an up to date status report.

While there has been a great deal of on-going activity and much progress on the Model 998, we have also confronted a number of technical issues that had to be resolved.

First, and most important, despite our continued commitment to implementing Trinnov processing on the Model 998, we have encountered substantial development hurdles. At the same time, the design team has had its hands full working to ensure a totally bug-free implementation of HDMI Version 1.4a with both 3D capability and the Audio Return Channel.

The time and effort required to deliver truly consistent compatibility with the wide range of Blu-ray players, cable boxes, satellite receivers, telco based services such as FIOS, games and other external sources is a major challenge. These are new technologies that require extraordinary care and testing. (Anyone who has followed the discussions in the on-line forums knows that even some of the big players in this industry have already learned the hard way that this is a difficult technology to master).

Given a finite set of engineering resources, we realized that it would simply cause an unacceptable delay if we were to simultaneously implement both Trinnov and HDMI Version 1.4a in a new AV processor at the same time and expect it be trouble free at launch.

With that in mind, it is clear to us that, at this time, flawless implementation of the new HDMI Version 1.4a features is more critical than Trinnov. Therefore, we have decided to modify our product plan by dropping Trinnov for now, with the revised processor named the Model 978. This will cause a slight delay in the introduction date from late this year to the first quarter of 2011, but it assures us a bug-free launch. Once we get past the launch of the Model 978 we will be free to return to work on the Trinnov-enabled Model 998.

To be clear, the Model 978 is not a “new” project, but simply a modified version of the same Model 998 we have been working on. As such, we can take advantage of the work already done to fill you in on some of the features and functions you will see in the Model 978.

From an operational standpoint, the Model 978 will be simple, straightforward and easy for everyone in the house to operate. The knowledgeable home theater enthusiast will have the power and flexibility they demand, while the more tech-averse members of the family will be able to use it without problems. After all, what fun is great sound and pictures if it’s too hard to use?

This ease of use will even extend to direct USB software upgrade capability. No “loaders” will be needed; simply download the files to a USB stick, plug it into the front panel USB jack, press a few buttons on the remote, and you will be good to go.

The Model 978 will include five “fast switching” HDMI inputs along with two HDMI outputs, and it will be fully compliant with Version 1.4a offering 3D compatability and the Audio Return Channel.

Our video processing and scaling will be from Anchor Bay, using the chip sets found on many high-end Blu-ray players and AVRs.

On the audio side there will be both balanced and “standard” unbalanced outputs, (including dual subwoofer outputs). Of course, there will also be multiple analog and digital inputs for your legacy sources.

As part of this “simple, straightforward, and great sounding” philosophy, we’ve intentionally decided not to include every “bell and whistle”. For example, there will not be any network connectivity or similar services. That is best left to other companies who specialize in this sort of technology, and you’ll have many options for that in your system as time moves forward. (In addition, the testing and compliance necessary for adding broadband or home-network connectivity would simply delay the product further.)

In the last year we have all noticed that networking capability has become redundant throughout home entertainment systems as it appears in a host of products. As more and more devices are network-equipped, it makes no sense for us to duplicate what you will undoubtedly have in your HDTV, Blu-ray player, video game console, HTPC, AppleTV, Roku, SqueezeBox, Popcorn, BoxeeBox or similar product to deliver networked entertainment and other subscription and streaming services. This way, those who desire such services will be able to select the product that best suits their needs without our cost-penalizing those who are not interested in them.

Our job will be to provide the needed HDMI, digital audio and analog audio inputs for you to connect to and to deliver the great sound and video these network services provide.

There is one more VERY CRITICAL aspect of the Model 978 I want to tell you about. The Outlaws have always been committed to audio quality, and that is where this processor will really shine. While the Model 978 will not include Trinnov, it will offer an Audyssey suite of EQ/Room Correction and Volume Leveling technologies.

The ADC, DSP and similar key components have also been carefully selected for audio quality with careful attention to both two-channel and multi-channel audio performance.

Most important, the Model 978 carries one addition to what was planned for the Model 998: true state of the art DACs. We’ve already auditioned them using a reference board, and the sound is just incredible. Regardless of the audio/video source or surround mode, the Model 978 will deliver sound quality well beyond anything we’ve ever been able to offer until now.

We will provide more details as we get closer, but a few additional points in anticipation of your questions:

• This will be an “Outlaw Exclusive” product. It is designed by us, and is being developed in conjunction with experienced engineering teams. Further, it will be built in a factory we have selected after examining a number of potential manufacturers. This isn’t an “off the shelf” product shared with others. If you want a product with these features, you’ll have to buy it from us.
• We own the design and we will own the software code. That means it will ship with all features working as promised. In the unlikely event that there are any problems we’ll be able to promptly correct them. If a patch is needed, you will have the USB-direct upgrade feature to modify the software without any “loader” hassles.The Model 978 will retain the same industrial design and appearance we’ve previously shown for our next generation platform.
• Based on the current schedule, we will have the first Alpha samples in November and a planned release date in the first quarter of 2011. As with any complex product, this date is subject to change due our requirement to put first round of off-tool samples through an extensive beta test that some of you will be part of. In addition, with some of the standards a moving target, we can’t nail down the exact time that will be needed to obtain all the needed certifications from HDMI, Dolby, DTS, UL/CSA and for FCC compliance testing.

The above notwithstanding, we’ll ship it as soon as it is fully ready, not before. We will do our beta testing before the product ships, not afterwards. We strongly believe that while home theater is a hobby to many, it has to be enjoyable for all and having to struggle to make a processor operate as it was intended should not be part of that equation.

The final question, of course, is “what will it cost”. We’ve already ordered some of the critical long-lead parts, but semiconductor pricing is still quite volatile. In addition, the cost of copper, aluminum and steel along with other parts and costs may cause some changes one way or the other. For now, let’s simply say that it will be a great value at any price. Oh, and yes, despite the model number change, any “Outlaw Owner Discounts” promised for the Model 998 will, of course, be applicable here.

A closing note: Along with the Model 978 and Model 998 we are in the midst of the most aggressive new product development cycle in our history. We have four design teams with specific specialties working on five new products, and they will ALL be Outlaw exclusives. (Although one company has asked us to build a version for them.) One product is so unique that we can say with a certainty that not only will no other brand offer it; there is no product like it anywhere in the consumer or professional audio markets. Two of these new products are in beta test as you read this, and at least one of them should be available before Thanksgiving. (It is the product we promised to the winner of the “Peter’s Demo” search a while back.)

Yes, there have been some bumps in the trail over the past year or so. However, let there be no doubt that the Outlaws are here to stay. We are committed to delivering high-value, high-performance audio and video products for many years to come.

Thank you.

Peter

Holy smokes, Peter! That's a mouthful!


So the Model 978 will be a "non-Trinnov" processor but otherwise have a lot in common with the Model 998. Sounds reasonable.


Lovely.


Sounds like we might be seeing the ABT2015? Very fine choice...


Some may balk at this, but I like it. Doing network connectivity well is a huge challenge.


Cool.


Sounds like we could be seeing some wild stuff in the months ahead!

This is the perfect good news I needed to start a weekend, Outlaw style!

This is exciting... I'm looking forward to learning more.

Thank you Peter. I'm looking forward to the new product. I'm not surprised by Trinnov getting dropped from this iteration and I think it is a wise move to be ready for HDMI 1.4a (3D), even though I don't care about that. This sounds like a unit that is poised to perform. Great DACs and a great video processing/scaling. The end result is a unit that should sound great. This is exciting news!

With that said, I was really hoping to see a Trinnov product. My room set-up is not ideal and I liked the idea of what Trinnov could offer. I'm not sure Audyssey will be as effective.

PeterT's message above has finally brought me out of lurker status. I, for one consider this a very promising development.

The fact that Peter didn't specify what flavor of Audyssey room EQ will be included in the 978 suggests that that decision may still be pending. I am very interested in this new processor and would very much like to see this near-flagship product ship with nothing less than MultEQ XT32.

Peter might want to talk to Audyssey before saying it will have their technology.

What makes you think he hasn't?

Well I see the topic has already been renamed "Model 978/998". I've been following the 998 discussions and there has been some criticism but also some compliments along the way for Outlaw. They earned a big compliment today for communicating their direction with the 998 and now the 978. I'm excited to see what they have in store for us in the next few months and in early 2011 with the 978.

As far as the 978 I'm finding so many things to like about it the loss of Trinnov does not seem like a huge deal. In particular with some form of Audyssey on board. Just the feature list mentioned by Peter T. is terrific: ABT video processing, top end DACs, multiple HDMI outs, current HDMI compliance and a nod to stereo performance. And the fact this is an Outlaw original is a real plus!

I suspect the design team has made that call by now.

I am happy to hear that the 998 hasn't just been canned altogether and the Trinnov unit is still planned for the future.

Thanks Peter for the long awaited update. Also not interested in 3D, but glad to hear about the top notch DACs and dual sub outputs (much more interested in the audio than the video). However, I'm still waiting for the Trinnov 998 as my room setup is very challenged. Assume it is too early to guess how long it will be before the 998 is released; but would rather wait for a bug free version.

This

Just finished reading all the posts after my chiming in.

I definitely smiled when I read his long awaited update. Not because he thinks I bugged his board room either. I work with engineers every day and systems integration is what "we" are doing right now. I couldn't imagine a more complicated thing to face than what I face every day I go to work. What I don't see every day is the setting of realistic expectations (at work.) I think it's unfortunately fairly commonplace for management to believe that if you just push and push and push at that goal, that it will all miraculously come together. Critical error. Teams have to be honest about circumstances and be brave enough, and intelligent enough to know what's attainable and worthwhile. I'm smiling because it sounds like they're definitely taking a properly reserved approach and doing things that make absolute sense, at least to me. I am very intrigued by the 978's place in the lineup and what's been outlined to us. This is pretty much exactly what I was hoping he would say.

As for whether Audyssey is or is not in the game yet, I highly doubt they're in the business of turning down licensees. And given their place in the market, of all the room correction technologies out there, it makes sense that they would likely be the simpler to implement. Just a guess there. So I wouldn't lose any sleep over whether the official knot has been tied.

Anyhoo, once again thanks to Peter for such great news and for sticking to the core values. All companies big and small encounter major obstacles. It's those that are humble enough to realize the situation for what it is and still stand and deliver that impress me. Now I wonder what this super mysterious new product is...I'm in a buying mood lately and now my mind wanders...

Ouch!

But as RedSlinPA so lucidly points out, that may well be moot.

I've been lurking for a long time while I waited for the 998. Why does it sound like the audyssey guy in sdurani's link has a problem with Outlaw?

Michelle

Because Outlaw's head honcho is claiming that the 978 will be using his (Audyssey's) technology, allegedly without consulting him first. He's entitled to be miffed (I would be) but I suspect he'll get over it... see RedSlinPA's post above.

I guess I now know why Peter didn't mention what flavor of Audyssey's room EQ the 978 will be using.

I get that, I do. It just seems a bit odd for a company founder to be calling out a potential client like that on a public forum.

Michelle

Yes, the correct response would have been a) nothing, or b) Audyssey looks forward to working with Outlaw on their new processor.

That's the way I feel too. I'm curious to see how he replies to my questions at sdurani's link. I was surprised by his comments which makes me worried he's going to hold things up for Outlaw.

Why would he? Nobody's said or done anything yet that would even begin to sour a future relationship. These are big boys... they can take it.

Chris may be entitled to a little public huffing and puffing. But when push comes to shove, what can possibly be gained from refusing to do business with Outlaw?

I don't think anyone would hold up an outlaw. Seriously, despite Chris' comments, I doubt Audyssey would make things difficult for a potential licensee, especially one as reputable as Outlaw Audio. Should make for a good partnership.

It is possible they (Audyssey) are legally restricted from being able to provide the same suite to Outlaw that they have to Onkyo, Denon and Marantz.

I would call his response "safe" - who knows what cards he's holding...Honestly, Outlaw's decision to go Audyssey may have just been made and why would they default to assume there would be problems?

Chris @ Aud's response definitely conveys that he didn't know yet, but if I were in his shoes, his response makes sense. Better than "SWEET, SHOW ME THE MONEEEY!!" It also was better than "Says who? I haven't agreed to this, so Mr. T is making this up." I would imagine Chris, and Peter, have gotten to where they are by not jumping the gun, but instead conveying calm and letting things develop in good time.

Don't worry folks. I wonder a bit about this, but one way of looking at this is that outside of the meeting Peter mentioned @ CES, we on this thread may be among the first to know about such a pursuit, and if that's even partially true, well, that's pretty cool.

This is great news!! I'm almost more excited about the prospects of this project than the 998. I'm not sold on the whole Trinnov thing at this point and am lucky to not really need it. I really am just looking for something that is simple, yet focused on great sound. My new BDP 93 will take care of the video!
Way to go Outlaw!!!

First off, I really appreciate Peter's update, especially providing us with the logic behind the decision to go with first the 978 followed by the 998. They simply must get something new to market ASAP. In order to speed things up, they obviously felt they had to devote their resources to either integrating the newest 3D HDMI or go with Trinnov. And it seems that integrating Trinnov is more difficult and time consuming than anticipated. However, there is one area that wasn't addressed, and that is Beta testing. I wonder how many Outlaw beta testers currently have the equipment to adequately test 3D. In fact, I don't think the Outlaw's application form asks this. Virtually everyone could test Trinnov's room correction implementation.

Given the changes that have occurred again in the feature set of the final product(978), one important question I didn't see the answer to here is:

HOW MUCH?

I think to answer the cost to us question might be just a bit premature. If you were following the Audyssey bit, then one might think that the official deal is in the works and as such, licensing costs and estimations on the effort to integrate it into the product would affect the price of the unit. But I think within 4 weeks we might have a number.

Just getting caught up on the developments. This is awesome news.

Here's to hoping there isn't some political b.s. in the works with Audyssey.

HIP HIP.... HORAAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You would think that since Trinnov is out and Audyssey is in and the rest is pretty much the same as the 998 was expected to be, the price should be right around the $1399. All of the delays and lack of updates make the purchase of the Onkyo PR-SC886 from Outlaw last year look like a great decision. Especially since I don't care about 3D.

I'm sorry but how is this different from the current bunch of avr on the market now? So is this a replacement for the 970? I'm happy to see outlaw move forward with a new pre/pro, but I'v waited for the flaship pre/pro with room correction second to none. Is Trinnov superior to Audyssey? Will Audyssey accept being good enough for 978, but not good enough for the flagship 998?. I'm just not sure how good this news is? If the audio performance is superior to the 990 I guess i'm in. I just want a great pre/pro that sounds as good as the 990. I guess Outlaw has spoiled me.

As with any other pre/pro, the difference is largely going to be one of priorities: the pre/pro (especially when produced by a smaller company with less expansive R&D resources) sacrifices some bells and whistles like network connectivity while placing greater emphasis on performance (things like the DAC's that Peter mentioned).


Price-wise, it's not clear yet, but I suspect the Model 978 is closer to being a successor to the Model 990. The balanced outputs certainly fit that notion, at least. It sounds like the Model 998 will be almost a peer to the Model 978 except for Trinnov - although I wouldn't be surprised if they decided tuck in another tweak or two on the Model 998 before it was all said and done.


In theory, Trinnov's 3D remapping has the potential to really distance it from Audyssey, but getting it right appears to be tricky (to put it mildly) so we haven't yet seen a really definitive implementation of it in a consumer-level product. Audyssey has dominated for years now, though, and one reason for that dominance is simple: it's a pretty effective tool for what it is. There are also a number of different degrees of sophistication to Audyssey that have to be factored in, as well. At it's most basic, Audyssey is a quite good automatic setup tool with a pretty decent room correction aspect. As you step up the levels, the room correction gets more sophisticated and can do more to help compensate for undesirable room conditions.


I liked my Model 990, and I like the sounds of what has been described for the Model 978. I think their goal is to match (or exceed) the Model 990's sound quality in conjunction with the new features. From a model number perspective, I could see someone describing the Model 978 as a "Model 993" - following along the same lineage as the Model 990, but with Audyssey as a more expedient alternative to the Model 998's Trinnov.

I think difficulties with implementing Trinnov at less than stratospheric pricing is the major hurdle to the 998. I was looking forward to Trinnov implementation more than 3D capable HDMI. I imagine that a direct comparison between the 990 and the 978 in my audio environment will be needed before I could say the spending is justified. While I doubt it, I’m keeping an open ear. But this comes from someone already ‘sold’ on Outlaw.

When thinking about pre/pro customers new to Outlaw, virtually none would say, “What, it doesn’t have Trinnov?” On the other hand, many contemplating a move away from the big-box mass-market would be put off if 3D were not included.

In an earlier post I did say I was ‘sold’ on 3D, and, in theory, I still am. But, in my view, 3D needs several things to be seen in a highly effective way versus just ‘the next thing’ in a sales-marketing scenario that is always looking for something new to sell. Ads that show birds, butterflies and other items flying out into the room are misleading in that the 3D effect is only seen in the rectangular cone between each viewer’s eyes and the borders of the display being viewed, just as 2D objects are not seen beyond these borders. Any ad showing objects being viewed outside of the borders is, in effect, false advertising. Anyone want to join a class action suit? Anyway, I think that unless a 3D scene can fill either half or more of a viewer’s field of vision, or the great majority of the viewer’s conscious visual attention area, 3D within a ‘boxed tunnel’ is only a borderline gimmick.

Because a 3D signal can go from player to display without involving the pre/pro, I don’t see 3D capable HDMI in a pre/pro as an enticement for me. I chose to run different HDMI sources directly to my display, rather than switching beforehand, because my display allows for custom settings associated with each input. If all my sources are switched before the display, the display would need another way to determine what source originated the signal arriving at the one input I was using on the display.

So, while I think the 978 may be good for Outlaw, and think that’s a good thing overall, the waning of my personal enthusiasm for the 978 due to the lack of Trinnov is not turned around by the presence of 3D HDMI. If the 978 makes it into my system to stay, it will have to be on the merits of audio performance strikingly better than the 990.

3D will not be the deciding factor in why I look for the 978/998 platform. I do not believe 3D is here to stay, despite all the marketing hype. Unless they come up with a way to make it work without glasses I am sceptical as to whether it will ever be mainstream. I would rather look to a platform that could support resolution beyond 1080P with superb sound. The best 3D movie I have ever seen is Avatar but it looks just as good in 2D BluRay. If a screen the size of a movie theaters' can't implement it without glasses, I can't ever see it coming to my livingroom.

True. I would add that it may be faster to work out 3D than Trinnov if you choose to tackle just one of them.


True that you can bypass the processor with 3D, but it takes some care. For Blu-ray, for example, you need a player with dual HDMI outputs.

All I want to know at this point is when will the preorder link show up on their website because I'm in!!!!!! `

For some reason I was not getting email notifications, so I apologize for not following the .. waves that I contributed to making. This post seems like the best place to jump in ...

Chris Kyriakakis did NOT call anyone out. The context was that another manufacturer, Simaudio, went so far as to release a pre/pro with Audyssey technology in it, logos on the display and Audyssey's intellectual property (trademarks) all over the manual. This, and that they were not a licensee came to light from a post from an AVS Forum member where someone had referred to Simaudio using Audyssey. After that post, Chris said that that was interesting as Simaudio is not a licensee.

That is what happened here as well. A member carried Peter's announcement to the thread and Chris commented on it.

Audyssey's licensing is with the branded company, not underlying manufacturer. Regardless of who made it, if Outlaw wants to sell something with Audyssey in it, then they must license it.

I'm sure that there is communication between the two entities and that everything is peachy.

Jeff

Yes, in that this all started when someone brought this up on AVS, but NO in that if what is reported is as described, the other company actually brought a product to market and apparently sold it without the right licensing. Here it is a bit different, as the product was announced to have a feature, but you can't buy it yet. There's a BIG difference there.

As pepar/Jeff suggests, one has to believe that this will be put together properly and that all will be well in order by the time the product is sold. It is in both sides' interest to make that happen.

LOL!!! Well, other than a press release, that's about as definitive as it gets.

Maybe they're relying on Lexicon licensing (like their reboxed...literally...Oppo bluray player).

I kid! I kid! :P

This is interesting news. I am excited to hear more details about the new processor.

Interesting and it's good to see an update from Peter. I also work daily with engineers here and at our ODM's and can tell you that software (firmware) is always full of surprises and is always late, no matter how hard you push. Codecs and multmedia processers and porting of operating systems makes for a long product development time. I think I'll be replacing my 950 in Q1.

I had been looking at the Integra 80.2 as a possible upgrade to my OP885, but now that this unit has been brought to my attention, I will investigate further. I owned a 950 way back when ...

Jeff

Partially as atonement for stirring things up , but mostly because I myself am now very excited about this unit, I have started a thread on AVS Forum...

Re Peters anouncement...
Thank ya jeesuss! Saved enough loonies and twonies now, so lets have at 'er.
Question, those of us in Canada, will we have to pony up some sort of Customs fee due to the product being manufactured over seas? I guess yes, but maybe some weasle clause with the design from North America. Hoping so.

The Outlaws might find that if they put out a pre/pro with Audyssey's latest suite, that *it* will turn out to be the flagship and no follow on Trinnov is needed.

Jeff

I've been carrying what I learn here to AVS and in response to someone speculating about the 978 not having DSX, I linked to the image linked in Peter's announcement that shows Dolby PLIIz lit up on the display. I speculated that the 978, neé 998, was designed from the ground up with (at least) 9.2 channels. Is that a safe ... assumption? If so, the "extra" output connectors would have already been in the design.

Even with Audyssey MultEQ XT32, there are some things Trinnov offers that Audyssey can't match. It has less to do with equalization and more to do with spatial remapping - Audyssey still doesn't have anything comparable to Trinnov's remapping function. It's that carrot dangling in front of us all that has probably kept Outlaw interested in a Trinnov-based Model 998 alongside the Audyssey-based Model 978.


Hard to say - I've read some things that suggest even some of the latest receivers and processors with DSX and PLIIz are only including eight-channel DAC's, which means you have to decide whether you'll use height channels or surround back channels. I'm going to wait to see what they actually offer before I assume anything.

I am familiar with that feature, but I have to wonder what practical application there is for it? And then there is the cost of Trinnov. I don't know what the licensing fees are, but ADA seems to be very ... proud .. of Trinnov and are really printing money selling it into the high end custom theater space.


That has indeed been the case. The first wave had that choice, but the second wave has nine main channel outs and the next wave ... at least in the top o' the line models ... will have eleven main channel outs.

Personally, I am fine with 9.2 as I cannot place Heights in my theater. And I might even be fine with giving up my rear surrounds as I have only a 7-ch main amp.

Jeff

Trinnov spatial remapping has the potential of simulating a near-perfect immersive soundfield from 5 imperfectly-placed speakers, which, in the real world, has tremendous practical application. Unfortunately, it has so far proved to be impossible to deliver these benefits in a bug-free consumer-grade AVR or pre/pro. And even if it proves to be possible, the iron-fisted control that Trinnov may need to exert to convey its benefits -- IIRC the SN R-972, once Trinnov EQ and 3D remapping are activated, permits no adjustments to crossover points, channel levels or tone settings, with no possibility of superimposing surround modes such as Dolby PLIIx -- will be a real turn-off for many.

I think it's great that Outlaw is planning to continue development work on the 998 once the 978 is released, but in the meantime I agree with you that they should consider the 978 to be the new Outlaw pre/pro, and equip it accordingly. I think the apparent excitement over the 978 has to do with the fact that Audyssey is a proven, well known commodity, and that the 978 now, finally, seems to be more than vaporware.

Do you know of anyone whose centre speaker is not at the same height as their L/R speakers due to display/screen constraints? Or their surround speakers aren't at the optimal angles due to room constraints? Just as level matching and time alignment can 'virtually' place all your speakers the same distance away, speaker remapping can have all your speakers placed at optimal height and angles.

Of course, how they go about doing this is what decide the usefulness of the feature. If part of the technology involves bleeding some discrete centre content into the L/R speakers in order to use phantom imaging to 'virtually' lift a low centre speaker, then that could lead to a less stable centre image for off-axis listeners.

Even just level setting with time delay is only ‘accurate’ at the position where the measurement microphone was placed. Some say a small improvement found in some systems allows multiple sampling points and provide settings that try to give each measured position a roughly equal compromise. Similarly for EQ: unless the listening space is either the middle of an anechoic chamber or all surfaces in all directions treat arriving acoustic energy in exactly the same way, system EQ is not perceived identically in all listening positions. Again, perhaps multiple sampling provides for reasonably good room average.

But if you’re talking about virtual speaker placement, there is no way to have all real or all virtual sound sources in the ideal positions for multiple listening positions. The user is going to have to determine what spot in the room is the center of speaker placement for listening purposes (even if that spot is not an exact symmetrical center of all the speakers’ placements). Listening at other positions may be improved by the use of Audyssey or Trinnov, but generally only one small zone gets the best of what is possible within whatever the system and room limitations are.

Even in professionally done home theatres with "all good seats", there will invariably be a sweet spot that sounds best (especially with regards to levels & distance settings). Nothing you can do about it for calibration, but the trick with EQing is to sample multiple seats/locations and address problems that are common to them. This way, fixing it in one location is beneficial to other seats.

i have a feeling there are many lurking (like me for instance) hoping that the audyssey package is indeed XT32. i am hoping against hope, however i think realistically that we are at least a year away from seeing the trickle down from anything but the "flagship" ($$$) AVR's.

The Denon 4311 and Onkyo 3008 list for $2000 and $2100 respectively, can be had for considerably less and include XT32, amongst many, many other features, including network connectivity and multi-channel amplifiers, all of which will be absent from the 978. I don't see any reason why XT32 in the 978 should be a pipe dream, especially at its anticipated (speculated?) price.

I'm with you, GaryB. And I want Audyssey Pro-ready along with XT 32.

Jeff

We have been agreeing a lot lately, haven't we?

Since the original announcement of the 997 then the 998 now the 978, when it comes to the mainstream companies and their ongoing product offerings, there has been a considerable sum of water that has passed under the bridge. Honestly speaking, the 978 will have to be quite impressive, virtually trouble free and offered at a very competitive price before I would consider it. There is just too many attractive options out there in the marketplace and for my self with TWO 7125s and some pretty sophisticated outboard video processing, the Marantz 5005 being offered on this very website used as a pre-pro would be more than adequate for my needs.

Hmm, let's see, 5005(which is available now) or the 978(possibly available at some point in the future and not knowing the features or the price).
The clock is ticking.

This has always been a challenge for Outlaw - there have always been lower-cost receivers available from larger manufacturers, often with comparable or even more up-to-date feature sets. The SR5005 does look to be a good candidate for a receiver-as-pre/pro.

The difference here, though, will most likely come from the significant discussion in Peter's post about audio quality (DAC selection, analog audio design, etc.). I am assuming that the Model 978 will cost more than the SR5005, but the expectation is that it will offer better sound quality. At that point, it is always a personal judgment call as to whether or not the extra cost can be justified by the audio quality.

Gonk, no doubt what you say is correct about Outlaw and the issues of new product announcements, however, in my case I already have had Marantz products in my set-ups for a number of years so I am quite familiar with their performance capabilities.

I guess the issue for many of us long-time Outlaw customers is that we are now on the THIRD new Pre-Pro product announcement in the last couple of years with still basically nothing concrete emerging from all this, so at some point, a decision must be made. As we have seen in recent times, two years is a lifetime in the consumer electronics business.

Will there be an upgrade path to go from the 978 to the 998? Will we get some kind of refund if we get the 978 and want to upgrade to the 998 when it comes out?

I wouldn't be too sure of that. I've never bought an Outlaw product but signed up for alerts and lurked here specifically because of Trinnov. Two other guys I know were also waiting with baited breath for the 998 for this reason. It's been a long frustrating wait between the Sherwood debacle and now this.

That being said, I don't blame Outlaw for putting this off. I'd be shocked if it ever came to pass. Trinnov is too complicated and way too expensive. The ADA TEQ is outboard and ridiculously expensive. It seems the only way Trinnov will work well is if it's ported over almost in its entirety.

My only problem with Outlaw is the impression they left with me as a potential new client. You sign up for alerts on a new product and end up inundated with emails about "exciting new partnerships". I don't want a Marantz, an Onkyo, speakers or a sub. As far as the 978 is concerned, Audyssey in some flavor is not what I was looking for and neither is 3D. Maybe the new DAC's will be a game changer? Can people actually hear differences between DAC's? Audiophiles say they can but isn't the associated circuitry just as important?

Chris

So... we 990 owners who have patiently waited thru the 997, 998 and now the 978 should get a $200 rebate times 3. A few more credits and we get one free.

Or maybe Lucy will just pull the football away again. Based on recent performance, I wouldn't be betting the farm.

Trinnov is clearly a significant challenge to integrate into a processor or receiver.


Outlaw has always been more than just a surround processor company, so which is why their announcements cover a wide range of products. That being said, I agree that the evolution of an Outlaw HDMI-based processor has been a difficult one for us all. I'm glad to hear that an Outlaw processor will arrive sooner rather than later, but I'm also glad that they haven't thrown in the towel on Trinnov.

Including 3D is a necessary move due to competition - the Model 978 and Model 998 will need to stay in production for two or three years, and an HDMI v1.3 processor would look rather silly in 2012 or beyond (even more so than it would in 2011). As for the analog performance, the DAC chips are the first step in developing a really good analog audio section. It's not the only step, but it's important. Once you get to a good analog section, everything beyond that starts to enter the realm of diminishing returns - but it can yield improvements, and people will perceive those often-subtle improvements in different ways. I've known some who would speak at great length to describe subtle differences in audio performance.

I have some experience with a separate stereo DAC and I'm very encouraged Outlaw is going to concentrate on audio performance in the 978. I can't describe the differences between DACs like the audio reviewers but I prefer my separate stereo DAC to the 990. So often the HT setup is also for music/stereo and a bump up in analog audio performance would be welcome.

The same could be said about the phono pre amp. IF there will be one in the 978 I hope that is another area Outlaw will improve over the 990.

I'm like many who see no value in 3D. I don't think you can get the real 3D effect unless it is "cinema" sized and that is not happening in my family room. But if it really takes hold (a significant number of well produced movies and sports on TV) it would be OK to have the capability in the 978.

But what I'd really like to hear more about is the 978's video processing and how flexible it will be. I still watch a significant amount of standard definition TV and DVDs. What will the 978/Anchor Bay Technologies do for those sources and how will the 978 work with my plasma?

This is a good question. The ABT2010 is a chip I've spent some time with and been quite happy with when used in conjunction with DVD's, but it does depend on the firmware implementation as well. The most likely Anchor Bay chip will be the ABT2015, which is similar to the ABT2010, so it should offer similar potential.

If your plasma is a "non-standard" resolution (the various flavors of 768p), my understanding is that it is prohibitively complex for the panel's native resolution to be supported (too many variations in timing and specific resolution). Some standalone video processors support it, but it's really hard to do - OPPO tried it with the BDP-83 during beta testing and concluded that there were too many problems. You'd probably need to use either 720p or 1080p (assuming the plasma accepts a 1080p signal).

For standard definition viewed on 768p panels, the best option may well be to send 480p to the display, taking advantage of the excellent deinterlacing capability of the ABT chip, but thereby ensuring that the image is only scaled once. I've never understood why it's often recommended to send 720p signals to a 768p panel (as it's "closest" to the native resolution) since that necessitates 2 scaling operations (480p to 720p in the source device or AVR/processor, then 720p to 768p in the display). Each scaling operation can only degrade rather than improve the image.

Of course, that assumes that the panel has a good scaler, but many do. It's certainly worth trying 480p.

Wonder how the 978 will compare to the Marantz AV7005? I was very tempted by the open box sale of the SR7005, but will hold off for now.

At least in existing models, Marantz' processor is not powerful enough to do Audyssey room correction on TrueHD or STS-HD MA at, I believe, 24-bit/96KHz sampling.

So it dropped Audyssey. Lame. And that fact was never on their website; one needed to dig deep into the manual to find it. And even then, the wording was weaselly. Personally, I would never consider buying a Marantz.

Jeff

The SR5005 changed that, from what I've heard. Outlaw's SR5005 guide even made a point of mentioning the change. That means the other x005's probably have the same change.


Good point. For SD, the best bet is to experiment - I'd try 480p, 720p, and (if supported) 1080p to decide which yielded the best picture quality. Which one works best will depend on a bunch of factors.

Ah, my Pioneer 5080 is a 768p but does accept a 1080p signal. That is how I have it set up with the oppo BDP-83. So does the 83 have either of the chips you mentioned? I'm very pleased with the DVD performance from the oppo and if the 978 can do the same with standard def TV it would be great.

Yes, the BDP-83 uses the ABT2010 chip as you can see in this image from OPPO's website. If you feel inclined, try sending DVDs at 480p instead of 1080p from the 83 to your Kuro and see if you notice any change in image quality (I realize the 5080 is doing just fine with 1080p). I'm very curious.

OPPO Digital started working with the ABT2010 with the DV-983H (originally built with two separate chips - the ABT102 for deinterlacing and the ABT1018 for scaling - although later production runs went with the ABT2010 in place of them) and re-used that experience when they developed the BDP-83, which includes the ABT2010. The ABT2015 was released last year as a somewhat less expensive alternative to the ABT2010 and has started showing up in a number of receivers this year.

One drawback to setting the player to 480p is that it'll scale BD's down to 480p as well. It would be an interesting experiment, but might not be a good long-term solution.

It is encouraging that Outlaw is using ABT given my experience with ABT employed in my oppo. We will have to wait and see which chip they will use in the 978. Thanks for the info on the chip development.

I compared 1080p to 720p when I set up my oppo and couldn't really see any difference but I never used 480p. I'll check it out if I get a chance and report back. I suspect the scaling capability of my Pioneer is pretty good since I couldn't see any difference between 720p or 1080p from the oppo to 768p. I suspect I won't see any difference going between 480p and 768p but I'll check.

Edit: Gonk's note about BD at 480p is why I used 1080p. I only compared 720p and 1080p on DVD playback.

Providing it's worth the trouble from a PQ perspective, it's easy enough to toggle through the available resolutions using the remote. I certainly wouldn't suggest leaving the "default" resolution at 480p for BDs, although for a 50" 768p plasma viewed at 10' or more, I think many would be surprised at how small a difference the lower resolution might make to image quality.


Thanks for indulging me. The Pioneer plasmas are indeed often singled out as having good scaling capability although I suspect that's also true of many others. It's deinterlacing (especially for 480i) that seems to cause problems for many.

Holy crap I'm excited for the 978! I'm actually surprised that there's not more talk about it around other forums. I've been waiting for the right pre/pro to pop up, and I think this is the one for me. I used to have Outlaw separates a while back and loved them. I'm wondering what kind of OSD/GUI we can expect. It's not that important to me, but I am a bit of a sucker for a pretty OSD and GUI overlay with HDMI.

Wow, I just realized this is my first post. I thought I had posted a few years ago. Good to meet you guys.

I started a thread on AVS to generate some buzz there. But all we have is the announcement from Peter T. and that's something but still not a whole lot of detail. Personally, I am very anxious to learn if Audyssey's MultEQ XT 32 will be included, and beyond that that the 978 be Audyssey Pro-ready.

Jeff

Yes, the XT 32 would be huge, but most importantly to me, is that the pre/pro just works properly. I'm sure it's going to sound great, but I just want it to work. There are so many lately that have problems, and a pre/pro that just works out of the box is becoming more important lately. But it sounds like that might not be a problem. However, with the easy upgrading through USB, if it does need a few updates to be perfect, it won't be too bad.

i suspect the 978 is just baiting on what's coming within the 1st half of next year, i also suspect 2nd-3rd quarter release for the 998 next year, i can't see a release for the 998 this year..

so i suspect another white elephant given the baiting expectant release date for new processors being made for the market..

xt32 would be a nice inclusion as will be trinnov if they ever get it to work that is, for 978 i would expect a xt24 as min release spec, i wonder if there is xt64 or xt128 somewhere in the wings.... though at present to much speculation to say what's going to be the end products we will get is anyone's guess so it's a waiting game for all of us..

There is no "XT 24.". And I think that Audyssey has wrung all of the efficiency out of their code that there is to wring, so no 64 or 128.

Jeff

It sounds to me like the "holdup" from any new processor being released for us "Outlaws" is, first, all the "bells and whistles" i.e. 3D etc.. all have to be included as a "necessity" before anything can go into production. This could go on forever! My question is, have you misjudged your "Nuts and Bolts" sales foundation? Don't these "necessities" belong more in your "receiver" catagory rather than your "discrete" processor line? I agree with other feelings that "3D" will only take off when the glasses are off. I'm currently using an Anthem D2 and it's a mess. If people are too lazy to use a Radio Shack meter to balance their 7.1 system then they shouldn't be an OUTLAW! We still need to use our EARS!

In addition, Ascend Acoutics is about to introduce it's new Sierra 1 Nrt at under $1000! Hello! are you Outlaw's awake! This is one of your main competitors in the speaker department online. Why would you offer a speaker that's more expensive just to get more bass at twice the cost!? when most of your clients have a sub!?

Well said. Waiting for the new Outlaw pre-pro is like waiting for the Great Pumpkin to arrive. It never seems to show up as Linus predicts.

They belong in every category. It would be marketing suicide to release a product in 2011 that didn't support the popular checklist of items that customers are looking for.

"Or maybe Lucy will just pull the football away again."
I'm growing weary of running up, kicking, only to fall on my back and walking home with my anticipation deflated...

I've been holding out, just like the rest of you. Gave consideration a while back when the Onkyo and the Marantz were offered as an alternative. But, the other two won't ship to Canada. Talk about frustrated. Not only have the 998 and 978 been a figment of our wishfull imagination, but I have a couple of G'$ I just can't give away.

I have been waiting for some info since it is December. No word at this point probably means no go by Xmas. Another year goes by and the Outlaws are holed up in their hideout. Some smoke signals would be welcome at this point. I thought the Outlaws were working on a way to be able to ship to our frustrated friends in the great white north country.

From Peter T's announcement back in October:

Yeah, another delay foretold by Peter T. The big question is ... Why Wait?

Even though I am very antsy to upgrade from my 990 I will wait.
Outlaw has always offered the best bang for the buck with their processors and I think the 978 will prove that again.
It is hard to sit back and wait but I always have felt that good things come to he who waits.

Yeah... Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, 401K, 978, 998 in that order. Seriously, 2 1/2 years is a long time to wait in the electronics world, no matter how good the processor. The way I see it, the 978 vapor gear is not nearly as compelling as the Onkyo/Marantz items already available. Without Trinnov it isn't any different than what out there already.

given the last few announcements they have been flogging marantz gear like a bad smell makes me wonder if both the 998 and 978 is nothing but vaporware....


since nobody has said boo since respective press releases on both products

Wait or buy now? I still think that if you need something now, you should get something now. No matter what cool new toy is "just over the horizon," you are better off getting something that serves your needs now if you need to upgrade. (Whether or not "need" applies to your case is a personal judgment call, of course...) The Marantz AV7005 looks like a great option if you need something right now. On the other hand, if you are content with what you have, waiting until mid-2011 to see how the Model 978 compares to the competition (sound quality, feature set, picture quality, etc.) could be a no-brainer for some folks.

Trinnov clearly is not proving easy to shoe-horn into a consumer platform. The only folks who have done it yet is Sherwood, and the R-972 has largely fallen off the radar - which suggests that Outlaw likely made a good choice when they scrapped the Model 997. A bad product could be a lot more detrimental than no product, especially for a small company. Still, the concept behind Trinnov is appealing, so I don't blame them for wanting to explore it further with the Model 998.

My complaints about HDMI's version stew have been stated often in the past, so they're pretty well known around here (and in a few other places). The rapid progression from v1.1 to v1.2 to v1.3 to v1.4 has hurt a lot of companies, confused a lot of consumers, and generally (I think) been detrimental to the industry as a whole. Outlaw's problems with these processors is merely one example of many. Even if the Model 978 uses Audyssey instead of Trinnov, if they do a good job with the core feature set I can see where it could be a successful product.


I doubt either will prove to be vaporware. It would be the height of foolishness to announce these and then not follow through, and I don't believe Outlaw is foolish. We'll have to wait and see whether the Model 978 hits its launch goal of Q1 2011 or not, but I expect we'll see it one way or another.

Well. I may wait, and I probably will wait. But it is not a sure thing that I will wait. Based on that thinking, which I'm certain is not limited to me, I am surprised that there haven't been a leak or two to hold the waiters in line.

Jeff

...hasn't...

I agree... throw us a bone or two. For me, the absence of Audyssey MultEq XT32/Sub EQ HT would be very close to a deal-breaker. Is it not possible at this stage to confirm that the 978 will have it, or at least that it hasn't yet been ruled out?

A leak or two? There's been a string of "real soon now" announcements for a couple of years. The 990 was released 5-6 years ago and Outlaw has been unable to deliver a successor. Folks can hem and haw over the why's and the excuses, but that's the bottom line.

My take on Outlaw is that they do some products well...like their amplifier line (made by ATI) and their subs (made by Hsu, I think). For those kinds of things, I'd buy new product without hesitation. As far as surround processors go, the 990 is/was a great processor, but it is really showing it's age these days. If someone needed a processor now or in the near future, I don't see any reason to buy it from Outlaw. The processors they're reselling are cheaper elsewhere if you shop around. There's also a wide variety of high quality product in the typical Outlaw price universe available for purchase all over the place. This boat has sailed.

978-998......Does SEEM like a train going nowhere with limited information on these processors.However having the 990 for some years now and never being disappointed with it's performance I will still hold out at least till the first quarter of the new year.From my recollection that is the time when the 978 will raise it's head. That's when I will take my shot.
Room correction is important however using my Radio Shack SPL meter I see no reason to step up to the 998 just for room correction.
EARS...seem to be the best tools.
At least it my understanding that one will have room correction and one will not. If that is not the difference I stand corrected and that is another reason for peoples' frustration about the lack of information.

According to Peter T, the 978 will have Audyssey (version not specified) while the 998 will have Trinnov.

A manufacturer couldn't give away a prepro these days without some form of room correction.

I had a good laugh seeing how people get so worked up and come to so many conclusions. Reality check, it is a pre-processor. I think zonk summed it up best... either buy now or wait. you bitching about not getting any updates or claiming vaporware accomplishes nothing. If they gave us more updates, you guys would be bitching about not getting firm delivery dates. Let's face it, there is no pleasing you guys.

It'll be ready when it is ready and it will be a very good value for the feature set.

How is an SPL meter going to undo what the room is adding to the recording? For what? You can't even set speaker levels accurately with your ears (hence the reason people buy SPL meters).

First I am not sure what you mean by "How is an SPL meter going to undo what the room is adding to the recording"?
Having good room acoustics/diffusers along with a SPL meter does help correct room deficiencies.
I was not saying that Audyssey or Trinnov were unimportant.
Dubbing stages use the same Radio Shack analog meter to check the calibration of their speakers each day.
The EARS comment was simply to emphasize that every one hears things differently. What might sound good to you in your HT environment might not cut the cake with someone else.

Bitching is not the reason I posted my opinion about an upcoming "pre-processor" from Outlaw. I believe that I made it pretty clear that I am loyal to Outlaw and was very happy with the performance of the 990.
Anxious yes...bitching???...no.
More like excitement about what Outlaw is going to put on the table.
Thoughts,and opinions is what a Forum is all about.

Thanks Skiman for the information.

Every room is an equalizer, adding its own sound to the recording you're listening to. Suppose you find a narrow peak at 46Hz that is resulting in one-noted bass. How will diffusers and a SPL meter help you pull down that peak and get bass that is more even? Dubbing stages are tuned to industry standard curves using sophisticated measurement gear and equalization. Earlier you said "using my Radio Shack SPL meter I see no reason to step up to the 998 just for room correction", which seems to conflate calibration with room correction. They're not the same. Using a SPL meter to set speaker levels is different than sampling the sound at multiple locations and equalizing away the room's negative effects.

Thanks for explaining.

You're welcome. At this point in technology, I wouldn't consider a pre-pro without room correction (Audyssey or Trinnov). You'll hear less of your room but more of what's in the recording.

In your opinion which room correction technology is better than the other...Audyssey or Trinnov)? Along with that question do you think there will different price points for these different technologies involving room correction in the 978-998....Price points base on that alone or will there be more whistles on one rather than the other?
People on this forum seem to be rallying towards the Trinnov.

Never compared the two head to head, with ALL other variables remaining constant, so I couldn't say.

I have heard the Trinnov, but that was their ($13k-$18k?) professional unit in a large home theatre that already sounded good (designed & tuned by Keith Yates). One of the impressive aspects of Trinnov is that it can tell you where your speakers are (distance, angle, elevation) with surprising precision. This allows it to compensate for imperfect layouts with their re-mapping feature. But how much of the technology from the professional Trinnov unit will make it into the 998 is anybody's guess at the moment.

By comparison, I've only heard Audyssey in non-professional installs. A couple of member of my local Los Angeles area HT group recently bought pre-pros/receivers with the latest version of Audyssey: MultEQxt32. The results in both cases were impressive, especially the smoothness and consistency of the bass (both set-ups are running dual subs, which the new Audyssey is particularly well suited for). If the 978 has MultEQxt32 and supports two subwoofers, then Outlaw will have a winner on their hands, even before introducing the 998. But that's based on what Outlaw likes (their fans follow), not any sort of A/B comparison. Once both units are out, people will be able to get a better idea of how the two room correction technologies compare.

It's true that the forum has had a lot of interest in Trinnov. As Sanjay points out, though, we've yet to hear Trinnov in a consumer product. The interest is largely intellectual at this point. From a purely theoretical standpoint, the 3D remapping concept is very interesting. On the other hand, Audyssey offers a lot more first-hand experience among consumers. It's not a magic cure-all, but if used properly I think it's a worthwhile tool to add to our toolkits.

How quickly we forget the Sherwood Newcastle R-972...

It's perhaps more accurate to say that we haven't yet heard Trinnov correctly and reliably implemented in a consumer product. And Outlaw is obviously not having an easy time doing so, either. I remain very interested in Trinnov but, for someone like me who wants a real live new pre/pro in the next few months, Audyssey, a proven and well-known technology, remains a much better bet.

And in case anyone's forgotten, make it MultEq XT32 with Sub EQ HT, please.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking when I typed it. We've heard Trinnov, but have we actually heard Trinnov?

Apparently the Outlaws heard it at one time. A quote from Scott ... "The Trinnov Optimizer system, as incorporated in the R-972, is without a doubt one of the most significant audible advancements we have ever encountered!"

I recently bought and sent back a TX-NR5007. It sounded pretty darn good w/ MultEq XT, and a B&K 200.7, but with the new 1.4 standards and MultEq XT32 now available I decided it was worth it to spend a little more. I was leaning towards the 5008 or an 80.2, but am intrigued by the 978. For me, it's worth waiting a few months. But,first quarter release and MultEq XT32 are deal-breakers. After March I'll just go with one of the for-mentioned AVR/Pre-Pro's.
Really, this is just another plug for XT32, and a hurry up!

FYI, every XT 32 box also has Sub EQ HT. The big must-have feature for me is that it be Audyssey Pro-ready. Or it will be an 80.2/5508 for me replacing an OP 885. I am in no rush, though, but would expect that could change if something isn't at least announced by March.

Jeff

So far, I believe you're correct, although the Products with Audyssey Technologies site does show the Integra DHC-80.2 to have XT32 but not Sub EQ HT (probably in error). They're not necessarily mutually inclusive technologies, however... there are indeed several AVRs with Sub EQ HT but "only" MultEq XT.

I want both.

FYI, according to the Integra specs, it does have both MultEQ XT32 and SubEQ HT.

I figured as much, as I indicated above.

You are singing my tune here. I'm a happy 950 owner and I loved that it was a simple quality design that allowed mere mortals like myself to enter the world of seperates (and I'm never going back). Since then, I've come to realize the difference a high quality analog section makes and am willing to pay for it. However, I do not want to pay for it over and over and over again with each source device I buy. If great analog can be centralized into the pre/pro, then I can buy cheaper/commodity digital transports and save money in the long run.

Regarding all the other features - I'm firmly in the Luddite camp. Give me HDMI switching and the support for the standard codecs. Give me balanced and unbalanced inputs and outputs. Give me flexible bass management. Give me true bypass on all the audio inputs (just in case I do splurge on a reference source device). Give me an easy way to update firmware (USB or ethernet, don't care). Give me a good warranty and great support. Package it all up in an ugly industrial case to save cost.

To give you an idea of my mindset, I'm almost ready to pull the trigger on a NAD M15 (non HD) even though it is severely limited in its HDMI support (no audio, just video). Only its inability to do true bypass on audio inputs is holding me back. Granted, this is extreme and I hope I don't end up having to compromise so many features just to get an affordable pre/pro with a great analog section. But I will if that is what it takes.

I honestly believe Outlaw lost its way with the original vision of the 998 in trying to beat the competition on hi-tech features. I truly hope the above marks a return to the value oriented audio first approach that sold me with the 950.

And in the mean time, what has all this development, set-backs, re-tooling/programming, starting-all-over-again done to the pricing. Most electronics pricing comes down as we have seen with the FP monitors, PC and Lap-Tops, cell phones, etc. I have a knot on my gut says the price of the 9$$ will sky rocket, whenever it is released. The door crasher demand, along with all the cost and waste up to now are going to be to much to overcome. CHA-CHING. Someone please re-assure me if I am wrong.
Knee deep in snow, no one with an alternative will ship up here (Canukistan), boo-hoo.
Cheers!

We don't know yet. The Model 997 was going to sell for $1400, I believe. How that will relate to the Model 978 and Model 998 we'll just have to wait and see. The Model 998 (as most recently described) will offer more than the Model 997 would have, while the Model 978 will offer more in most regards but with a different room correction solution. If I had to guess, I would not be surprised to see the Model 978 land close to the Model 997's target price, but I doubt it will exceed that. I'd also assume that the Model 998 will command at least a couple hundred dollars worth of premium over the Model 978 to justify the two products co-existing in one product line. For now, though, I think we're just dealing with guesswork.

Well, thanks, Gonk.
I hope (continuing to hope, I guess. LOL)that if and when this/these imaginary processors show up, that it/they will be shipped to Canada. Yes, I know Outlaw has shipped to Canada in the past, still have the amp in the box from three years ago as proof. The amp looking for something to plug into other than the wall outlet.
Oh, my. Big sigh.

Happy New Year to everyone. I'm going to make the assumption that 2011 will be a big year for Outlaw Audio and perhaps the 998. I would love a teaser if Outlaw is willing to offer one.

Cheers!

Peter

You know... somehow that assumption seems familiar to me from the last two years.

Hi everyone.
For what it's worth I was talking to Scott in regards to a small issue with my 7700. Of course I had to mention something about Outlaws new processors'.
Scott was a bit "lips are sealed" but my interpretation of his response was that he was very optimistic about something happening in the first quarter of this year.

I hope my interpretation is correct.

*yawn*

It's been that way for the past couple of years. Lucy definitely won't pull the football away again....no way....no how....not again. AAAAAAUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGH! LOL

The first "quarter" is a pretty big window.

Jeff

+1 for what LightninBoy wrote in post #85386!
FWIW, I went by the Atlantic Technology booth at CES and met Peter, as he was demoing the AT-1 speakers with thier new H-PAS technology cabinet design.

That's it? No impression of the AT-1 or anything?

I just posted my favorable reaction to the AT-1's in the "New Outlaw Speakers H-Pas" thread.