Thank you...

After reading today's email regarding the 997, I would like to say "Thank you" to Outlaw for being honest with us and for taking responsibility. It is all too often in today's world that companies don't, and Outlaw could have easily done the same, so it's nice to see that the reasoning behind the decision to cancel the 997 was laid-out for us.

With that being said, I do hope that the 998 (I'd call it the 1000) will make it out by the end of the year, and hopefully we'll have more specs to go on before then.

One thing I'd like to see added to the 998 (which isn't on the 997 or 990) is a Balanced XLR analog CD input. That way "higher end" CD players or DACs with Balanced XLR outputs can be be used, instead of having to use their unbalanced RCA outputs. On my 990/7500 combo, I'm using 5 MIT XLR cables to connect them, and think it does sound better than using RCA. Since I'm looking to buy a higher-end CD player later this year (or next year) it will most likely have XLR and RCA outputs, so of course between the two it would be better to use the XLR.

Thank you again and I look forward to hearing more about the 998.

-FAUguy

I add my thanks with an additional Well Done to Outlaw. I've seen a lot of companies throw good money after bad because no one in a position of authority had the gumption to pull the plug on a project that is no longer is representative of the core values the company holds.

The true worth of a company is evident when they make decisions aligned with their beliefs even though that decision costs them in the short term.

So again I say

Well Done

I know that this is soon, but does anyone know if they are going to do a interest/pre-order list for the 998?

I agree, this is GOOD news.
The front panel with dedicated source keys is definately what the dr ordered.
Call me crazy, but S/N sounds too much like plain old Sherwood, who I know nothing about except that they made absolute junk with lies for specs. These, of course, were your $79 recievers...
Anyways, the outlaws have prevaled. the 997 is dead; long live the 998.
Oh, please include at least 9.1, and let me do 8.1 if so inclined (sum stereo hieght for 1 speaker)

I wouldn't expect them to do anything until they were close to having product ready to ship. They might do an "interest list" similar to what OPPO did with the BDP-83, but it'll be a while before I'd expect to hear any talk about that.

I applaud Outlaw Audio for making the tough decision they had to make, albeit after quite a bit of time. However, I'm sure every company has a "drop dead date" before they make a final decision, and they understandably reached theirs. This may actually be a blessing in disguise for most customers, because it seems now that Outlaw has more control over what they are doing than relying on some other partner too heavily for product implementation.

I will say this about the new 998: I'm not a fan of Dolby ProLogicIIz (can't afford the space or $$ for more speakers) and I don't own a projection screen or TV that can produce 3D images (nor do I care to--I'm not buying into that marketing scheme at all). Just give me a good processor that gets audio features right and, oh, just happens to do video well, too.

I have no experience with PLIIz, so can't form an opinion either way on that. As for HDMI v1.4 and 3D, my opinion is that the big names are doing consumers a grave dis-service. Emerging 3D display standards, uncertainty about how long they might persist in the marketplace before something better (such as something that doesn't require either passive or active glasses to achieve the 3D effect) comes along, confusion about how 3D content will be delivered and even what manufacturers' Blu-ray players will work with the official BD content, and another damned HDMI version (a pet peeve of mine, as my post history will attest) are all being tossed into the marketplace less than a year after the digital transition encouraged a ton of people to buy new (non-3D) HDTV's. I don't like that it's happening, but I am glad that Outlaw is going to be able to get "up to speed" with it so that the 998 will be able to have some longevity in the marketplace and in people's homes.

I agree with you on most counts, gonk, but unless the industry comes up with a quick upgrade process for updating new HDMI versions--and not one that requires re-buying a whole new receiver or processor (such as NAD's modular-based architecture or a simple USB upgrade approach), I am not getting suckered into this whole 3D thing. Having to buy a new processor or receiver to accommodate HDMI v1.4 is bad enough; having to buy a new processor and/or TV to get this technology is reason enough not to get involved.

I enjoy home theater (although I'm admittedly more of an audio buff at heart), but I don't want to be dodging swords, arrows, and chariots with Russell Crow while I'm watching Gladiator!

That's the problem with what HDMI has been doing: the changes for new versions are more far-reaching than just swapping out a board or loading new firmware. Even modular designs (such as NAD's) have limitations in this regard. The only sure-fire solution is to quit changing HDMI every two or three years. That's kind of the idea behind a "standard" - SPDIF, DVI, component video (until they find a way to kill it), and plenty of other standards have survived for years or even decades without the constant cycle of change that HDMI has experienced. Unfortunately, even if manufacturers like Outlaw don't like what HDMI is doing, they have to play along because it is dictating what the marketplace offers and what many consumers expect or even demand.

I couldn't agree more with you on this. How many times have you read the marketing garbage from manufacturers that their new receivers are "obsolete-proof for many years to come." Hell, they can't even make them obsolete-proof for one year let alone many!

So you think when this new 998 comes out that will be different, that it will not be pre-obsolete. The 990 was late, the 997 was so late it would have been obsolete before it came out let alone within one year. Outlaw is going to have to prove it to me before I buy another item from them that they can get a product to market before it is obsolete and near their planned delivery time.

You all know the old saying: Fool me once ..., fool me twice. I will not let them fool me again.

I have officially jumped ship. Maybe outlaw should stick to amps, subs and other company's processors.

The industry has been changing things so rapidly that it's like the computer industry - buy something today, even if it's brand new and packed with all the latest features, and you run the risk of it being somehow "obsolete" tomorrow (or yesterday). What's most important is deciding what you define as obsolete and what features you anticipate needing now and over the years to come.

The 990 wasn't late. It arrived when HDMI v1.3 was a nebulous cloud and HDMI v1.1/v1.2 was a source of confusion and uncertainty that found painfully little hardware support at the time. People already wanted to buy v1.3 gear, even though the standard wasn't adopted and nobody knew what it would include, so most companies didn't adopt HDMI v1.1 audio support. Some provided HDMI ports but limited it to video switching, something that was almost never clearly documented and frequently frustrated consumers. DVI switching gave the 990 an effective way to sustain it in the marketplace for longer than any of its contemporaries, and it did it without the confusion that HDMI video switching frequently caused.

The 997 was late, but the reasons for that seem well-defined by the announcement. The 998 deserves a chance to stand on its own achievements.

Let's assume a pessimistic attitude for a moment and say the 998 is delayed until mid-2011. That would suck, obviously, but is there any reason to anticipate that a unit with HDMI v1.4a inputs, Trinnov, PLIIz, and Dolby Volume would be a dinosaur 15 months from today? Let's even be optimistic and say that the 998 arrives in time for my birthday in October. (Hint, hint, wink, wink, and optimistic to a silly degree...) At that point, even the earliest HDMI v1.4 receivers will only be a few months old and Trinnov will still be extremely unusual. Outlaw will likely want to keep it in production for at least two years and possibly three or more. Will someone who decides to buy a surround processor in March 2012 see the 998's feature set as antiquated? I would say that, while there is probably going to be some new cool technology that will be appearing in Onkyo's latest receivers two years from now that the 998 will lack, a significant number of people won't find that new cool thing to be a big enough deal to drive a purchasing decision. I firmly believe that there is no one product that is right for everyone. The 998 won't change that. Based on the general description found in today's announcement, though, it could be a worthwhile candidate for consideration by a good number of people for a few years to come.

That is a very very long way off, if you want anything like the quality of what we see now with glasses. All the barrier screen tricks, and techniques that require your head to remain in one spot are not suitable for the home (non-gaming) market (or the cinema for that matter). There are some ways to do it, but they are even less suited to the home due to implementation costs.

It's going to be glasses for a while.

My main point is that we cannot rely on their predictions any longer. You can put as positive spin on it as you would like but the fact is this processor is incredibly late considering the state of electronics today.

I would not wait for some mythical processor somewhere in the future from a company that admittedly allows others to engineer, program and manufacture. I would buy the best unit you can afford when you need to move on and plan to upgrade that unit every 2 to 3 years if you want to stay current.

If you are happy with what you have then go ahead and wait. If not it might be time to move on. My mistake is that I have wanted to move on for many months as my 990 has more and more problems and continues to become obsolete. I made the mistake of believing in the Outlaw folks and waiting.

Outlaw makes it sound like all of these delays were not there fault and they have learned from it. I hope for all of your sake that are waiting for the now mythical 998, that is true.

Who knows after enjoying my Onkyo PR-SC5507P for a couple of years and upgrading to a 3D TV when they become mainstream I will be back to get my $200 discount on a 998 that was just freshly released.

I agree with your points by and large, especially the point that waiting when you have an immediate need is not necessarily the best choice. A couple things to add:

The 997 is late. That's one reason it's dead now. The 998, based on the specs described, is not late. In fact, it could be comfortably ahead of the curve for a surround processor if it arrives in the next 12 months due to the inclusion of HDMI v1.4a.

I think that the lion's share of the problems with the 997 would appear to be readily associated with the R-972. Hard to pin the blame for that on Outlaw.

Well, the reason I am here, is great bank for the buck.
I have sensitive ears, and cheap gear hurts my ears, no mater how friggin new it is.
We are quickly aproaching the limits of what we can do with the indrtry standards of PCM, so what will be obsolete?
Look, good implimentation will shine in years to come.
Outlaw saves us money by selling direct, leaving the middleman out, and allowing a return if you don't like...that's what had my buy a 950, then a 990.
I will wait for the 998, I would suggest that you buy a oppo bdp83se, and a 990, and wait it out

HDMI 1.3 is compatible with 3D is it not?

How else can Sony claim their PS3 will be firmware upgradable to allow for 3D movie playback?

1.4 just adds Ethernet abilities, and thus the request by one user in these threads for a network input isn't thinking it through. HDMI 1.4 is the network connection.

Plain HDMI 1.3 won't support 3D. What I've heard is the PS3 is going to implement some HDMI 1.4 features over its 1.3 port to support 3D.

The Sony PS3 doesn't have a magic 1.3 port. There are Mitsubishi tv units with 1.3 they also say will be compatible. So I believe that 1.4 is guaranteed but some 1.3 units may be firmware upgradable

thank you for letting me wait 2 years, thanking your team foir moving me to the Integra DHC80.1 Onkyo 5705 pre-pro; it aint perfect, then again its real and for sale.I've gotten tired of waiting for vaporware. If you want folks to do business; level with them; don't ignore info requests for MONTHS.

the 997 is a real disappointment.Hope the 998 is more than that; buy then I didnt wait... my integra DHC80.1 is great

There are some issues involved.

1. Nobody knows how the PS3 will do 3D with an HDMI v1.3 transceiver chip. HDMI v1.4 (and particularly v1.4a) does add some 3D support, although in theory I think that v1.3 is capable of supporting the bandwidth. The most common theory I've seen is that the PS3's 3D will be 1080i-based, not 1080p-based, and that it will somehow be able to pass through a v1.3 transceiver that wasn't designed for 3D. Because the PS3 has that Cell processor under the hood, it can do some fairly CPU-intensive gymnastics to produce a 3D-friendly signal that can then be fed through the existing output.

2. There are some v1.3 displays that are said to be 3D capable. How that will work remains to be clearly defined.

3. There are some new products announced that are listed as being HDMI v1.3 while also supporting 3D. Those products are actually using v1.4 chips, but they were developed without having a formal v1.4 certification process. Thus they are v1.3 products that are intended to support some v1.4 functionality.

4. There are two dangers that may arise if people try to feed 3D through v1.3 receivers and processors. The first is bandwidth: even though v1.3 is spec'd to handle enough bandwidth for 3D, that doesn't mean products' internal architecture was built for it when all they had to worry about was 2D 1080p/60. There's no way to readily identify if this could be a problem or not with a v1.3 product. The other is video processing. Some units (like the Onkyo 885 and 886) will automatically bypass video processing when fed a 1080p/24 signal. Other units can't do that, and 1080p/24 comes out 1080p/60. Can the former units be "trained" to bypass a 1080p 3D signal? Can units that don't know to bypass 1080p/24 be "trained" to?

The best solutions for folks who want to have 3D at home are a v1.4 receiver or processor or find 3D sources that offer two HDMI outputs (one for video and one for audio) so the video can go straight to the display.

Is there any speculation on who Outlaw is working with to build the 998? If so, what other brands use those companies to build their products?

1. Sony has said it will be 1080p, and will NOT be simulated 3D, but fully compliant 3D. This means it will work, and we do know that HDMI 1.3 is enough for 3D in terms of bandwidth, and it will depend on certain products. If products were designed to fully handle the bandwidth needed in their infrastructure a firmware update should be satisfactory IF there is proper video processing. The PS3 is a powerful device. The guys at Oppo are also saying a firmware update will "likely," handle the 3D issue.

2. They are designed for firmware updates. Mitsubishi specifically states that the TVs were designed for it, and that all it will take is a firmware update. So HDMI 1.3 is more than capable again, if the processing is there and the infrastructure was designed for full bandwidth.

3. I know the Panasonic BD players coming out are in fact NOT using a 1.4 chip, they're just updated 1.3 chips. They had no 1.4 chip to use at the time of making their spec units.

4. You're right, if they didn't prepare for it there is no telling. However, a device won't get a firmware upgrade for 3D use if it won't work. So that should take care of everything. Most devices should be ok. The video chips needed aren't that powerful (something that could run DCDI should be more than capable for instance).

The primary reason for 1.4 is the addition of Ethernet, and to me it's not that big of a deal. 3D has been tacked on to improve 1.4 sales. Why? Because 1.4 was originally announced a long time ago and no one gave a damn. Throw on 3D and it's all of a sudden a big deal.

The fear that 1.3 will be obsolete is just that a fear. Chances are high that upgrades could handle the 3D issue for a lot of people. I personally see no need to add Ethernet to my HDMI, and I don't even know how much use that can even be.

Remember also, that the BD Association is claiming a high number of movies will be 3D compatible on release. Many of these movies aren't new, but already printed and again will just need a firmware update to unlock the feature. This means it was likely designed to work under previous 1.3 specs.

I, too, would like to commend Outlaw for being forthright on the demise of the 997.. You can only rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic so many times. Is it too late to start a thread where we could make inputs requesting certain features for the 998? I know one disappointment on the 997 was the lack of phono inputs. I would like to request phono inputs for the 998. Thank you.

I've been with outlaw and only outlaw (a refurb Onkyo for the kids doesn't count) for some time now: 1050, 950, 990...and was waiting on the 997 but had that gut feeling I had with the 990, being behind the new standards. I'm fine with a delay that nets us up-to-date tech for a change. Will the 998 make it on time? I'll say no, not if history teaches us anything.

I'm not in a hurry to move on, hdmi switching and dolby modes are all I'm missing, I think I can stand to wait.

I don't think this is quite true:
The ethernet connection that will be provided via an 1.4 HDMI cable will be just to provide connectivity between say AVR - TV, AVR- BD player, BD player-TV etc. This is just so people won't have to run an additional CAT5e/6 cable alongside the HDMI cable.

You would still need to have a standard RJ45 network jack to connect the AVR or BD player to your network. They would have come out with HDMI network switches (the fiasco that would be!) and even then you would still need it to use the standard RJ45 connection at some point. To my knowledge there are no routers, hubs, modems etc that have HDMI 1.4 ports.

Either way, I sure as heck am not going to replace my whole Gbt network with new hardware AND outrageously priced cables that I can't make myself.

The other problem is that according to HDMI.org HDMI 1.4 will only be able to do 100 Mbt speeds, not Gbt...

HDMI.org

I've seen so many mixed messages so far, that I'm unwilling to consider anything a guarantee until hardware and firmware are coexisting in consumer's homes. If both fat and slim PS3's have the video bandwidth to do it, that's great, but I still worry that we're going to run into some really weird issues with any existing v1.3 hardware elsewhere in the signal path. As for OPPO, I've heard the exact opposite: they don't believe it will be possible to add 3D support to either of their existing players via firmware.


I was talking specifically about existing surround receivers and processors. If the internal bandwidth doesn't exist to handle two 1080p signals concurrently, a firmware update won't fix it. Likewise, video processing that wasn't meant to pass such signals may not be able to be "fixed" after the fact to support it. There are already products on the market that can't pass 1080p/24 and even a few that can't pass 1080p without interlacing to 1080i and re-deinterlacing to 1080p. Those are almost guaranteed to choke on a 1080p 3D signal, and identifying such units is a difficult and tedious process (the ones I'm thinking of are all v1.3). Also consider how quickly the 3D standards have come together - folks can't have designed with this standard in mind because the standard was still a complete mystery. There's no telling what the 997 would have supported regarding 3D video signals. The fact that the 998 will have v1.4, on the other hand, means that it isn't an issue either way.


I still think that putting Ethernet in HDMI is the silliest idea I've heard in a long time. The implementation makes no sense to me, and I don't see the benefit of doing it. However, HDMI v1.4 always had provisions that related to video bandwidth and were specifically meant to be applicable to 3D. Nobody cared because no standards existed that could use that part of the spec. Personally, I still don't care much as I'm not real keen on 3D at home, but it is going to be important for Outlaw from a marketing perspective over the next several years.


I think that work-arounds are likely, but I also think that it is wise for Outlaw to move to v1.4 for the 998.


Which titles that are already out are compatible with the new 3D protocols? (I don't mean the red-blue junk that a few existing 3D releases have used, I mean the active shutter glasses.) I didn't think there were any existing titles. I'd be interested to see an article on that, as it has completely slipped under my radar and I have no idea how they could have produced such discs without the standard already being in place.

Good point. It has been widely reported (that's "reported") in the tech press that most TVs are not 3D compliant, and cannot be firmware upgraded to be so, as they are only built to accept signals up to 60Hz and 3D is a minimum 120Hz. The fact is that the PS3 is a unique situation in this matter - it is the biggest selling (by far!) BD player out there, it's design included a LOT of room for updates and expansion of content to extend its service life, and since BD is Sony's standard, they're going to squeeze every ounce of horsepower out of the hardware therein to accommodate. However, while you're getting 3D game and movie content on your PS3, you're not getting HDMI 1.4.



HT magazine in the 83SE review : "To make sure we bleed at the edge, up to the minute, I asked Oppo as we went to press whether the BDP-83 or BDP-83SE will be firmware upgradeable to 3D Blu-ray. At press time, the answer was no. We don’t anticipate a yes answer to this question, but I suppose we’ll keep asking for a while. Just in case. "



And that's assuming that the implementation of hard/software for v1.3/a in receivers/prepros was done properly. Which we all know did not happen for the most part.



Personally, I like this idea. In my HT I have one network drop at the rack. I have a all 3 consoles, a prepro, and my HTPC to connect, and wireless is spotty there. I wish this had been part of 1.3, it does me no good in 1.4.



None. The first ones are planned for release this summer when hardware starts to hit the stores, and even then they're talking about only 2 or 3 titles so far.

Despite all of the hubbub about this, I don't see the benefit of 3D except in a handful of films. Maybe games would be a more natural fit, but with so many "3D" films actually being "upgraded" 2D films (I'm talking to you, Harry Potter), it doesn't give me the urge. Most 3D films I've seen are no more 3D than a viewmaster slide - everything looks like cardboard cutouts in a diorama.

And to make things worse, the one title that folks seem to agree represents a really valid application of 3D is Avatar - which won't show up in BD in 3D until at least next year. Both the May release and the rumored late fall extended cut release will be in 2D only.

Space Station and Under the Sea are a couple of others, but from Hollywood only Up comes close. And I know I've beaten this horse before....but do we really think we'll get that same immersive experience from most home theaters with the relative viewing angle as small as it is?

I will wait it out and expand my disc collection. 3D will not make it to the real consumer market and be accepted for several years. Once that new fancy equipment comes out the price of the 2D stuff will drop enough to make it really affordable. I cannot imagine myself watching a movie at home with 3D glasses of any sort.

It's a good point, even if the horse does look a little dead - you'd probably need a big screen (front projection) to get the effect you find in the theater. My 40" LCD is as big as I can fit in our entertainment center, and the effect of 3D is probably not going to be as immersive as in the theater.

Ditto.

Does anyone here know for sure whether HDMI 1.4 and 3D will be able to go through the current generation of HDMI 1.3a receivers and preamps at least in pass-through mode? If not, it would make waiting for the 998 look like even a better idea.

As I understand it, nobody knows either way. The danger appears to be that it's entirely possible some, many, or all will have compatibility problems. I'll borrow my concerns on the matter from two earlier posts I made in this thread (since the thread's gotten a bit cluttered in spots):

I'd say the odds of at least some HDMI v1.3 receivers choking on 3D signals is extremely high. The most likely workaround will be 3D players with two HDMI outputs, one for video going straight to the display and one for audio going to the receiver. So far, though, a number of the announced 3D players have not offered that.

Seems like it is going to be an issue of compatibility. Some say it can work with software updates so as a 1.3 system can understand the 3D portion of the signal. But not all the benefits of 1.4 can be acheived via an update to the software. It appears that it is going to be quite messy out there once this kicks off. I think that there will be several problems in getting older gear to work with the new 3D content when relying on buggy updates to the software. There is no standardization for how that is to be done with 1.3 divices so far as I know. So a manufacturer could use standard HDMI 1.3 specifications and use some other sort of processing for the 3D content. This could lead To a limited compatibility with other hardware from differing manufacturers. So for me it would appear to be a plus for the 998.

Hell of a gutsy call, Outlaws. I applaud your actions. While I was one of the clients that decided to pull the trigger on an Integra 80.1, I will look forward to the 998's release and make an evaluation as to whether to return to the Outlaw's pre-pro corral!

Mike

Cheers to Outlaw for making the right call on the 997. And reading all this back and forth on HDMI 1.3 vs 1.4 vs 3D reminds me of another good call by Outlaw when they decided to forgo HDMI on the 990.

This actually brings it back to my original question. I realize that 1.4 internet and 3D content will not be able to be processed or decoded by a current generation preamp or receiver without at least a software update, or perhaps never. I was asking if a current preamp or receiver with HDMI 1.3 was set to pass through mode with no internal video processing, would it be able to transfer 1.4/3D content on to a monitor, the way the Outlaw 990 can successfully pass HDMI video content through HDMI/DVI and DVI/HDMI adapters. I would think that might be possible as long as HDMI remains pin-for-pin and wire-for-wire compatible.

I still think the answer is "nobody knows." In theory, it may be possible, but there would seem to be specific cases where it is almost certain that it will not be possible.

DVI/HDMI compatibility is be different than what we can expect to see with HDMI v1.3/v1.4 compatibility. After all, HDMI was based on DVI, and up until recently the video signals that one used were also supported by the other. The issue with 3D is that they are adding video signal formats that neither DVI nor HDMI v1.3 included. From a simple wiring standpoint, it wouldn't matter. It's when those signal formats get processed by a device in the signal path that things may get messy. Unlike the Model 990's DVI switching, many HDMI v1.3-based products actually process the video signal. That video processing is often an integral part of the video signal path, and it is built specifically to support the existing video formats we are all used to. Even now, some units have limitations with those existing formats. In some cases, they can't pass 1080p/24 through from a BD player to the display. I can think of at least one Faroudja-based receiver that converts 1080p to 1080i even if the output resolution is set to 1080p. Receivers like that would probably not be able to pass 3D content. It's like taking a 768p display and feeding it a 1080p signal - unless it has a video processor that knows what to do with that signal, all you're going to get is a blank screen or a message that it is receiving an unsupported signal.

The other concern is video bandwidth. The DVI switching in the 990 has enough bandwidth for the needs that existed prior to 3D. Will that switching start to have problems when you increase the video signal bandwidth requirements for 3D? Will the same be true for HDMI-based products that were designed to the same requirements? How will we know? At this point, I don't think anyone on the consumer side has those answers.

Thanks Gonk. I thought one reason to have standards was to actually protect the consumer. I sent this question to Marantz customer service about their current products, and they did not know either. So ignorance is not just on the consumer side. Isn't progress wonderful?

Somebody recently mentioned HDMI to me as a "standard" while discussing Blu-ray players - I pointed out that, as a standard, HDMI has had five major versions and at least a couple "a" revisions in less than eight years. That's pretty non-standard...

The answer is yes on 1.3 repeaters (any receiver that processes HDMI signals is a repeater) transmitting 3D, whether or not it's set to passthrough. We know this because, according to the CE press, all BD-Live enabled BD players are upgradable to send 3D over 1.3. However, due to bandwidth limitations, not at 1080p - 3D over 1.3 will be limited to 2 1080i streams from BD and two 540i streams from cable boxes. (This is, of course, in theory, as anyone who's dealt with HDMI repeaters knows there are implementation problems galore.) See here for reference.

1.4 as a standard, though, will NOT pass through a 1.3 compliant repeater, and available info specifically mentions the Ethernet channel as the problem. Considering that the hardware is manufactured to the specifications of a particular HDMI version, I would not expect any of the other 1.4 features to be passable since there has been no mention of them.

Originally Posted By: Larry Venable

thank you for letting me wait 2 years, thanking your team foir moving me to the Integra DHC80.1 Onkyo 5705 pre-pro; it aint perfect, then again its real and for sale.I've gotten tired of waiting for vaporware. If you want folks to do business; level with them; don't ignore info requests for MONTHS.

the 997 is a real disappointment.Hope the 998 is more than that; buy then I didnt wait... my integra DHC80.1 is great

I have jumped out the wagon.
Yesterday I got my new Integra DHC80.1
After two years, waiting for a 997, I pulled the trigger few days ago. The idea of the 998 is not real yet,.....not for me now.
Having a lot of Outlaw products, trying to be loyal, I took the decision to look for new horizons

Now,....I have to sell my well trusty 1050.