Going, Going, Gone ...

I am up early this morning, and Outlaw has just announced that the 997 Project has been aborted. After reading the Outlaw's reasoning, and the announcement of a the new 998 Project, I have to smile. I do like these Outlaws, and I feel satisfied that they did all they could to bring their customers a first rate processor, but sometimes, s**t happens.

I will be looking forward to hearing more about the 998 Project, and I hope there are others who share my trust that the Outlaws will do everything to get this one right.

Here is Outlaw's vision of the 998 ... Model 998 Rendering

Hope it is a grand slam ... Going, Going, Gone ...

i agree. im also excited for the other new products in the pipeline too. i have a good feeling that the albatross has been removed and 2010 is going to be good to be an Outlaw.

Good decision by Outlaw. After following the nightmare that the 972 was, it makes sense that Outlaw didn't want to have to deal with all those issues. I'm glad to see too that they are developing their own product and not rebadging another manufacturer's product. Disappointing for those waiting, but the promise of a product with today's cutting edge technology is a better choice than what the 997 was going to offer.

I agree, good decision by Outlaw.

I am still going to wait for an Outlaw pre\pro and look forward to watching this one come to market. I really like the fact that the Outlaw Team is building it!

Just wanted to say that I support Outlaw's decision!

Just saw the note from Outlaw about kicking the 997 to the curb. While quite a bit late, I agree that this is the right decision. This whole affair has been a distraction that has cost Outlaw substantial amounts of time, money, and (most importantly) a big hit to its existing customer base. Hopefully, the new 998 will arrive in a timely manner.

In spite of my sometimes sharp criticism, I wish Peter and the gang the best of luck in turning things around.

Best,

It's a shame that the Model 997 didn't pan out, but after reading the R-972 thread at AVS off and on for something like six months now, this feels like a good decision - it felt like stable firmware was a lot of months away, and even then it wasn't necessarily guaranteed. A Model 997 that came to market in December 2010 would have been very out of place, even with the potential that Trinnov offers.

The Model 998, on the other hand, certainly sounds promising. The design approach (with Outlaw having a more direct hand in the decision-making process) and feature set (with Trinnov, PLIIz, and HDMI v1.4) are reminiscent of the Model 950, which was among the first products to offer Pro Logic II and the "triple crossover" bass management. I also think it's cool that the front panel design gives a nice tip of the hat to the RR2150.

I had pretty much decided to pass on the 997. The 998,however,sound like a different story. I'll be excited to see further information.
In light of Peter's previous praise of height speakers, I'm suprised that there was no mention of 9.1.
Does anyone know anythind about Dolby PLIIZ?

While I can understand there will be a lot of disappointment about this decision, I think that the outlaws made the right call in cutting their losses. Perhaps around the time that the 998 comes around it will be time to replace my 990. (Which is still working like the day it came through the door BTW.)

Good call outlaws. Best luck on getting the 998 out to market.

sraber

They mention the $200 rebate for past Outlaw processor owners - ANY processor? (950 here) I remember it was only recent/current models for the 997.

I think it was $200 for 990 and 970 owners, and then later extended to offer $100 for 950 owners.

Dropping the 997 is the correct move. I am interested in moving up to the improved audio quality in Blu Ray, but was concerned about the 997 not having HDMI 1.4 and 3D. With the new 998, these concerns are addressed.

I'm surprised nobody has yet commented on the HDMI input/output note, since it seems to suggest that there will be multiple outputs. Projector folks with a general-use LCD or plasma should get a kick out of that. The firmware update procedure is also appealing - having used that technique dozens of times with the 980H, 983H, BDP-83, and BDP-80, I think it's an excellent solution.

PLIIz support requires height channels, as I understand it, but it seems like a lot of companies are implementing PLIIz support as an either/or with back surrounds. They may be doing that. Of course, there's a lot they haven't said yet, so I could be reading too much into it.

Cool!

I wonder if the 998 will include a phono input. It seems that the Outlaws have taken the pulse of the saloon and tried to include all of the other areas where it was thought that the 997 was lacking. The decision to get away from the Sherwood platform is a real good one and it gets them back to their roots of designing their own equipment and being more hands on.
Here are some things I hope the 998 includes:
1) Phono pre-amp
2) 3 zones with subwoofer support. It would be nice to be able to dedicate the balanced outputs to zone 2 completely separate from the main outputs to allow the 998 to be in two HTs at once with two separate setups for Trinnov.
3) 7.2 channels

One thing I'd like to see added to the 998 (which isn't on the 997 or 990) is a Balanced XLR analog CD input. That way "higher end" CD players or DACs with Balanced XLR outputs can be be used, instead of having to use their unbalanced RCA outputs. On my 990/7500 combo, I'm using 5 MIT XLR cables to connect them, and think it does sound better than using RCA. Since I'm looking to buy a higher-end CD player later this year (or next year) it will most likely have XLR and RCA outputs, so of course between the two it would be better to use the XLR.

Wow, thanks for the update.

I'm shifting focus - I'm patiently waiting for the 998. Meanwhile, this news has me looking for a temp replacement of my current 970 (looking for room correction and hdmi till the 998 comes out)...

I think this is good news, as it shows Outlaw is willing to make a tough call to keep its reputation intact. I was not desperate to upgrade my 990, and so the delay does not bother me, and the thought of getting the additional features in an Outlaw designed package makes the prospect much more appealing.

I'm bummed and excited at the same time. I have posted before that, given the AVS Forum's reports on the R-972, I was very reticent to buy the 997 until the bugs had been worked out. It sounds like Outlaw has full control over this one and it sounds like the engineering/development process is moving along. I'm curious when the 998 will actually be released. The email says they will "introduce" the 998 this year.

Other things that come to mind for me: what DACs will be used? Will the DACs in the BDP-83SE be a model for the 998 (not that I'm a DAC expert)? What video processor will be used? Sounds like they weren't too pumped about the Reon chip. Will there be a Trinnov mic input on the front of the unit? And last but not least, how much more than the 997 will we have to fork over for all this pleasure?

As a side note, it is time to update the web site and the forum. Can't wait to see the 997 forum move to the archives (I'd prefer to block it from my memory ) and the 998 forum move to the top of the list!

Up early this morning myself but AGAssarsson beat me to the punch.
Finally Outlaw has stepped up to the plate as I thought they would and should. I applaud PT and the rest of the Outlaw team for their decision which was a long time coming'. Perhaps Outlaw wanted to make this move some time ago and for legal reasons was holding back and was patiently waiting for the time to pitch their ball.
3D, HDMI 1.4a inputs and outputs, along with HIGH PERFORMANCE DACS all sweeten the pot. Not to mention Outlaw is still committed to the Trinnov Optimizer.
It sounds to me that Outlaw is even more committed to the rest of the gangs satisfaction and confidence to give everyone what they want and need in a high-end low cost processor.
I have read a FEW negative remarks on this forum more specifically Facebook that sounded as though they want the KINGS head on a platter for not delivering the 990 and with that have jumped ship. I think that there will be many out there wishing they had waited.
When you think about it those of us who have the 990 already have a great product.
My advice is "relax and gently float down stream" enjoy what we have and the best is yet to come.

Bravo...Outlaw...Bravo!!!

I wanted to add a thank you to Peter for explaining the history of how the 997 fell down. It is something that I never thought we would hear. It was just such a crazy ride to constantly be told that "we're almost done" but never reaching that point. I for one just wanted to know what the heck was going on. Now we know some of what happened. Thanks Peter for the update and the history.

Having become 'attached' to the 997 over the past year-and-a-half there was a bit of disappointment, but considering the newer specs of the 998 and how much Outlaw desires to have both a solid and cutting-edge product, they have my full support. My little Pioneer receiver is doing just fine so I don't have an immediate need to buy something else. Besides, I've been waiting several years to go separates, I think I can go a bit longer. Also, it gives me the chance to pay down some debts to more easily afford this unit.

I did audition a Pioneer Elite receiver, but didn't want to deal with HDMI issues and not being able to easily update the unit (In the event the problem was ever taken care of...) Then the other day I was rather unhappy about our Kenmore washing machine that will not properly wash clothes if you only throw in a couple items at a time (So what do you do if you only have a couple of red shirts and you aren't supposed to mix colors? Use the bathtub and ring them out by hand?!) so I can appreciate having a product that is not 'half-baked' and thrust upon the consumer, so many thanks to Outlaw for respecting me as a customer for not wanting to sell me a product that's not fully functional.

Same for me, my 990 is doing just fine and I had not figured I would jump on the 997 anytime soon. I will be more open to upgrading when a new pre/pro from Outlaw arrives.

I would also like to thank Outlaw for being upfront with us. The honesty is another reason I will recommend Outlaw to others.

Just wish they were upfront sooner. I have a 950 that I've been waiting to upgrade and last year would have been easier to afford an upgrade. Now that the 997 was so late and now cancelled with a replacement not slated until the end of the year I seriously doubt I'll be able to upgrade anytime soon. My window for updating has pretty much closed based upon what I'm guessing the price will be.

Hey! Good to see Outlaw is sticking with the 'too small to see jack squat from more than 2 feet away" display window.

Also, strange to see that the demise of the 997 will allow Outlaw to now refocus all their their time to work on a pile of other more neglected products/partnerships *AND* put all their time/energy into a lightning fast release of the 998. Outlaw staff must be thrilled to work two full time jobs in 2010.

Also, a $2000+ receiver will make buying Outlaw more than a little stretch over the mass market receivers.

Kind of funny to see the 997 in the "Discontinued Products" section of the Forum now...A discontinued product that was never produced...

Put me dowm as a Beta tester for the 998 if you need one. I can compare it against the 990 and the 886 in the same system.

Since this is a pre-amp having 9.2 outputs for the main room shouldn't be that hard. It's not like they have to fit in 2 more amps for the front heights. Also, having two independantly controlled sub outs for the main room could really help even out the frequency response. If Trinnov could be programmed to account for that type of speaker layout, they could work wonders. I'm lucky enough to have a R972... and although it has been frustrating, there is real potential. Hopefully Outlaw will be able to do a better job implementing the technology. One other note, having experienced Trinnov first hand, having front wides like Audyssey DSX is completely unnecessary, but I think the heights could really add some realism. Having DPLIIz to work from might make that easier, too.

You guys gotta be kidding!! They could have told us this a while ago. They let their valued customers hang until the last possible moment. Do you think this decision was made yesterday? Do you really think this "998" is going to appear by the end of the year, HA

I am sooooooo glad I jumped ship. The Onkyo PRSC5507P works flawlessly, sounds beautiful, looks professional. Good luck to you guys waiting for the next mythical Outlaw product, but I am glad I am not.

My guess is that I will get 2 or more years out of this Onkyo and by then the 3D standards will have settled, new 3D displays will be reasonable and the Outlaw 998, the Emotiva XMC-1, etc will be actually ready. Of course Onkyo, Integra, etc will still be ahead of them. Then we'll see what my next processor is.

You know when Outlaw offered the 886 at such a good price I thought there was some hidden meaning, but at that time I trusted them and decided to wait for the 997. I only wish I jumped sooner.

We don't know when the decision was made, nor do we know when they were allowed to make an announcement. They had a contract with Inkel. None of us know if the contract allowed them an out at any time and none of us know if they were contractually bound by a non-disclosure agreement. In terms of timing on the 998, none of us know when it will be available, but it sounds like it may be worth the wait. In the mean time, have fun with your Onkyo.

If you need something now, I can't fault the choice of the 5507.

I can't say I'm in the market for a new pre-pro in the very near future. I was looking more and more at an Onkyo/Integra solution for one primary reason. A year ago I moved all of my media to a Windows Home Server (WHS), all dubbed in lossless WMA format for audio and ISO files for video. For this reason, any pre-pro that I may purchase will almost assuredly have to be DLNA 1.5+ certified so that I can stream music and video from my WHS. The Integra DHC-40.1 and 80.1 are already DLNA certified. Given the 998 will most likely not be available until 2011, I would highly recommend any new product ship with an ethernet port for upgradability and with DLNA compliance. If Outlaw can deliver a product sometime in 2011 with DLNA compliance, they would most likely get my business again (current 990 owner). Just my .02!

I'm excited and I'm going to wait. They're putting nearly all the goodies I want and some that I didn't know I want.

Hitchhiker

FYI

I connected the Onkyo PR-SC5507P to my home network last night and after doing a flawless and painless (no USB drive needed as touted by Outlaw as a new feature on the 998, they are already behind) update to the firmware I searched for music. I have all my music in FLAC and on various computers and a NAS throughout the house. It worked beutifully. It found the files fast and played them beautifully.

I read the specs on the 998 and they already look behind and do you belive the end of 2010 delivery date. I doubt it.

I'm curious what you see in the specs that already looks behind. HDMI v1.4a was published last month. Trinnov is still new tech for the consumer market. PLIIz has been available for maybe a little over six months or so (don't recall a specific date).

You may be talking about network support. There's no mention of network connectivity, but even if it's not present that's a philosophical debate. We see folks wanting this sort of support in Blu-ray players and surround receivers. We even see it in HDTV's. Do we really want to own three or four different devices that can all access a DLNA server? Onkyo's been adhering to a "kitchen sink" approach to receiver design for several years now - if they see a feature that they might be able to shoe-horn in there, they add it. They're a bit obsessive that way. That doesn't mean every manufacturer should follow the same formula. Personally, I think that it starts to forget one of the benefits of separates. If I want a good network media appliance, I can get a separate unit - just like I already do for a Blu-ray player, cable/satellite box, and game console.

I've done firmware updates via network and USB. Both have their advantages. Some folks actually prefer the USB approach, as it tends to be faster and you have less chance of a power outage bricking the unit. USB also avoids the conundrum many folks still face of how to get a network connection at their equipment rack. From that standpoint, USB is easier to support. I'm equally content to do either.

Sad news for the people who waited and even those of us who didn't.

I applaud the announcement but do wonder why the inevitable took so long. I wish Outlaw nothing but well, but the processor market is feature driven and moving at great pace. The bigger brands seem to be refreshing at regular intervals and the cycle seems to actually be getting even quicker.

Outlaw is not in the extreme high end, so I do worry about these slow product development cycles.

Good luck
Rob

Yes I am referring to USB in lieu of a network connection. I disagree. The network connection not only offers a very easy way to update firmware (lov it on the Oppo unit as well), but allows things like music server ability and internet radio connection. My high end stereo system will have a PS Audio Perfect DAC and Bridge as soon as they are finished (I have more trust in them, especially since I seen heard and played with the prototype at CES) so I understand your point on seperates, but for my HT system I do not need a sperate unit to play FLAC files. I listened to the ONKYO and it sounds very, very good and I have a discerning ear.

I also like internet radio. Not the normally internet radio of various stations with various content, I mean Pandora radio. It connected to my existing pandora account and started to play songs and styles Pandora knows I like, this was way cool and sounded a lot better than from my PC. However it is only mp3 quality but with the various "kitchen sink" dolby/THX/DTS surrond settings and the Audessy Multi EQ 8 point correction it sounded pretty darn good.

As for other things, who knows as they have given us little real detail as of now (what DACS, what video chip, 9.2, 7.1?), which leads me to belive they do not know the detail right now.

I promise that if they get a new funtional improved processor out by the end of the year as promised in the email I will come on this forum and eat my words.

That would be grrrrrrrrrrreat!

I have to say, I think you're trolling a bit. I see post after post in several threads of you bashing Outlaw. I understand you're disappointed and upset, but you've moved on, so move on.

I think I jumped ship at the right time. I got the 886 in November in the big sale. With 3D coming out all the big displays that are currently out there without it are going to get cheaper faster. I don't want 3D so 1.4 is not needed at this point. I will not watch a movie at home with those stupid glasses on my face so I can see a special effect which is going to cost big $$$ for very little. I have settled in for the long haul and won't need any more front gear for a while.

I agree with Retep, move on, this is the Outlaw forum. If you can't contain your boundless mirth at their expense, get over to the Onkyo forum which lets you in for free to bash them all you want. Oh, my mistake, there isn't one is there? Get over yourself. I jumped ship to the 886 but in a few years I may need a new processor. Also, good luck when your 2 year warranty is up, finding someone who can fix your 5507 at a decent rate. Get over to AVSforum and read all the wonderful things they have to say about Onkyos' firmware update methods. I had mine sent back to Outlaw at the Outlaws' expense to get the latest firmware installed and had it back in my system in less than 10 days. I love the idea of just using a USB port on the front of the unit to update the firmware. If it is fast and painless then the firmware won't be so scary to update and new versions will be able to be put out all the time.

I am confident that rubbersoul and tkntz are on target here. I was up all last night working so the e-mail notice from Outlaw popped up, and I was too punch drunk to do anything but post the news and get back to work.

Having some rest and the time to think about a couple of conversations I have had with Scott in the past 18 months, it was clear he was frustrated, but also very upbeat about some of the technologies employed in the 997 and other products he indicated I might like to see (but could not talk about).

The fact that ...

1) so many of the technologies that would have been part of the Model 997 are adapted or improved in the Model 998 and,

2) there are significant design elements completed with prototype parts already coming this month and,

3) the price point and promotional pricing of the Model 998 will be essentially the same as the aborted Model 997 ...

... would support the belief that Outlaw has been planning this move for a long time. The nature of partnerships is always tricky when the expectations of joint ventures are not met, and this is clearly an extreme example.

It is likely that Outlaw would expose itself to contractual liabilities if it abandoned it's business partners without a significant effort to maintain the best economic outcome for all, even if this meant limiting losses instead of realizing profits. Of course, contracts between partners often have performance clauses that give each party the right to terminate the agreement, but these can be subordinate to other concerns which involve other agreements and relationships outside the direct umbrella of a joint venture such as the Model 997.

The success of a relatively small company like Outlaw depends heavily on trust. Outlaw customers are certainly of great importance, but the business integrity of Outlaw with it's industry partners is also vital to it's future success. As I understand, the Outlaws are a gang that has professional experience and continuing business interests in independently active companies. This has been a great asset, and the integrated industry required to bring complex products to market is something they clearly understand. That being said, invention and economics do not exist in a perfect world, and there are always risks, some of which are almost impossible to anticipate.

I have every confidence that the Outlaws have always had our interests at heart. But I am also sure they must have struggled to complete and maintain business obligations that have precluded them from communicating to us the messy details of a venture that ultimately failed. In a company that has been a champion of transparency, this must have been very difficult for the Outlaws to accept.

And finally ... to all those who have been so eager to denigrate the Outlaws, while crowing about how flawless and sonically pure their HT systems are ...
GREAT FOR YOU. But understand, there many of us who own Outlaw equipment that are very serious about quality and value too. And we have made repeated investments in this company because it has been such a uniquely pleasurable experience.

In fact, the Outlaws only design equipment that they themselves would put in their own homes and studios. So it is not hard to say the Outlaws have well understood their customer.

Thank you to all those who have supported this forum, and the exchange of valuable information.

Allan

cheers! good listening ahead.

Sorry if you think I am trolling

just pissed I guess

yes I am moving on

I will not say anything more bad about outlaw

good luck to you all

I guess I am a little pissed and suprised at how accepting you all are

I will let you guys get back to saying how great outlaw is

all in fun

later

I've been quietly following the 972/997 for a while. I was starting to look at separates right around the 997 being announced; after seeing the issues over the last few months with the 972, I can't say I'm surprised by the cancellation. Personally I think it is a good move.

As far as network connectivity, the idea of having an AVR or AVP that can stream media from a server is a nice option for those that don't want another device. For me though, i already have a dedicated PC for this job.

What I do want a network connection for (besides updates) is control; I'm in the process of switching over to iRule with an ipod touch for my HT remote. Being able to control equipment via LAN is pretty cool; no IR extenders or anything, just wifi and a lan cable and you are good to go. If Outlaw implements network control that would be the best use of LAN IMHO.


Either way, I'm looking forward to the 998!

The announcement from Outlaw states:



So we'll see just how close "close" is.

I agree that there must have been many contractual reasons, the details of which have not been released, for the delay in finally pulling the plug. Sure will be interesting to see the impact of Outlaw's decision on the 972.

I hear you and understand. That said, the future clearly indicates that with the increasing penetration of broadband and with TB disks selling for well under $100.00, the need to buy physical media is becoming unnecessary. Already, with the advent of iPods and MP3 players, more and more people purchase music via the internet. Movies are going the same route, although more slowly given the much larger sizes of DVD's. Also, the pre-pro is the "center" of most a/v systems. Could I invest in another media device to handle the DLNA streams? Yes, but that's one more device I have to have in my a/v system, one more device to remote control, etc. I'd much rather have the pre-pro be able to stream media, especially music. Again, just my .02!

Do you want it in the pre/pro (which may or may not already have a use for a network connection)? Or do you want it in the Blu-ray player, which because of BD-Live has a legitimate "need" for a network connection? I ask because I've been watching the tremendous debate surrounding and pressure regarding inclusion of network streaming capabilities in BD players since last year. We've been talking off and on for a few years now about a pre/pro as a media client, but in the last year the emphasis on these sorts of features in Blu-ray players has picked up a ton. Personally, I think that we're shoe-horning unnecessary functionality into the device either way, but if we've got the shoe-horn out, I wonder if the attention makes more sense aimed at a BD player?

IMO: My Tv, PS-3, VUDU and Blu-ray player all are hooked up to the internet. Other than the ease of updating firmware,I don't see the need. I like having separate units for specific functions. I also have a universal remote for control of all(so another unit is not a hassle). Music is not a main function for my needs in a processor. I think including the ability to receive satellite radio like the PR-SC886 would be good.

I fall in the camp of wanting the connectivity in the unit itself. After having purchased one Squeezebox, I really don't want to have to buy another to extend the functionality, especially when the new owner Logitech keeps reducing the quality of the DACs. Having some sort of embedded Linux system (in conjunction with network connectivity and firmware refreshes) seems like an excellent way to gain significant flexibility and future proofing for the entire system. After all, its not like Oppo has added the capability to use Netflix to its BD-83.

This is one of my pet peeves. Why would we want multiple pieces of equipment in our systems with redundant functionality ?
If you have a DVD/blue ray player, an AV receiver/pre-pro and an HD TV in your system, you probably have 3 sets of video scaling software. This is of no benifit to anyone and drives costs up for everyone.
We use components to get the best-of-breed for each function, redundancy is simply a waste of recources that eventually drives the price up.
If Wi-fi has become the province of DVD/Blue Ray players , why duplicate it in your pre-pro ?

I guess I'm not done with my rant.
What do we want a prr-pro to be ?
For me it needs to be the heart of my systom, able to accept whatever I throw at it and give me what I chose in return.
It needs a good analog section, though turntables could be supported by an outboard phono section.It needs great DACs,though again, Direct stream Digital and the like might be handled externally. In the current era, it also needs great video prodessing.
It should probably have both un-balanced and balanced ins and outs.
It should probably do a very good job with room correction/equalization, distance correction and bass management.
Wi-fi connectivity ? mabey.
So what else should a pre-pro do?

as someone who works with electronics all day and sees poor products all the time, i would rather buy quality componants in separate boxes rather than have one company jam it all in one box with only middle of the line parts and compromised design in order to make it all fit. not to mention they would then either sell a product much at a higher price than expected or they use lesser parts to keep prices down, either way its not good. more so i would rather see Outlaw design a pre-pro that does the main functions to the highest quality and performance, rather than force a bunch of extra novelties into one box just so it looks good on a features list but sounds like crap.

if you want every featuer under the sun with middle of the road peformance i believe one of the big brands already have your box waiting at target.

With regards to an Ethernet port and network ready I have two views of this.

First, I think I'm game for an a network ready pre/pro. Seeing other units being able to be configured though a web interface on a computer is pretty cool. I also like the ability to listen to net radio on the unit. Additionally being notified of an update is nice.

Second, I can go for no networking or radio at all in the unit. Just use the unit to process video and audio.

I really would prefer to have a box that tunes in radio, hd radio, satellite and net radio in one box. I listen to net radio more than OTA radio, but I tend to do it on my computer because it's too much of a hassle to setup on my entertainment system. I think those technologies should all be combined in one box instead of having radio and hd radio in a box and then having net radio in some separate box, that make no sense to me. Have all your radio regardless if it comes OTA or through the internet in one location. If it's a new separate, great! I'd actually prefer a new separate. But I agree that we don't need redundancy.

I gather a regular tuner is cheap and simple to add and an HD tuner isn't much more difficult, but when you get into net tuner you're adding a slew of new protocols and technology that significantly adds to the cost. Nonetheless, I rather buy them all in one separate unit or have them all combined in the pre/pro, but not separately.

it will be fun waiting for the 998.

Thanks for the heads up Peter T.

_Mark

Scooby wrote:
gonk wrote:

Yes, a couple of us 950 early adopters posted and Peter came back with a much-appreciated offer:

The 950 owners have been heard and recognized!

• Original owners of our "First Generation" products, the Model 1050 receiver and the Model 950 processor, will receive a $100 discount** on the purchase of a Model 997. Even though these products are long out of production, we want to show our appreciation for those who have been a part of the Outlaw family from the beginning.

Retep wrote:

+1 That's a good idea and would help keep the cost down and allow 100% focus on audio and video quality. And, Outlaw could make the Radio Box and have another product to sell.

And you might agree Hank, Austin radio is pretty lacking for a place known as the "Live Music Capital Of The World". I have no need for a tuner and your suggestion is spot on...focus on processing audio and video.

I live in Austin as well. KGSR is about the only decent station and even that isn't that great. But I travel a lot and the truth is most of the country has really bad terrestrial radio. That is why I am a huge fan of Sirius Satellite Radio. I would lobby for having the Satellite Ready interface on the new 998. It really doesn't cost that much at all. It takes very little real estate for the connections and the interface itself is very minimal as it really just needs access to the front panel display and very minor set of commands to tune the external Sat. Radio.

Memphis is the same way - city with tremendous musical heritage and not particularly good radio offerings.

What really surprises me is that ad-supported radio is still around at all. Other than NPR and classical here in DFW, most of the stations run their genre's 20-song playlists over and over again. It's a shame, but the ones that have changed this in the past usually fall flat in the ratings and go back to the old ways. The alternative (is it still called that?) station here has a few segments that emphasize talent over popularity, but at odd hours, of course.

I agree with the SR interface. It's silly to have a separate unit just for the proprietary connector for Sirius/XM. Same goes for the tuner. If I wanted to have one, I'm not sure I'd be keen on having to pay the couple of hundred extra for a separate unit. I don't really need more components right now.

I credit crappy OTA radio with allowing me to learn to appreciate talk radio.

Anyway, I think if a pre-pro wants to be "current" it needs to allow one to listen to internet radio offerings in HQ.

I live in SF bay area and we have quite a few radio stations that aren't too bad. Many broadcast in HD quality as well. I personally don't listen to FM very much. I keep mine on talk radio AM stations, which I don't believe had HD? I just can't imagine paying a monthly fee for satellite cause I'm such a cheap bastard. Just basic phone, cable internet and tv cost me well over $200 a month and I complain about that excessively.

I have a question about this Trinnov Optimizer for setting up your speaker levels.

After you finish running the Trinnov Optimizer, does this mean all speakers in your system, front main speakers and also surround speakers, will then be correctly calibrated to Dolby Digital Reference Level for watching movies on DVD at the listening position where you placed the microphone for the Trinnov Optimizer?

And if so, does this only work for the front main speakers and surround speakers, or will it also calibrate your subwoofer's dB levels for Dolby Digital Reference Level at the same time it's calibrating the front and surround speakers to all play together?

Or do you still have to calibrate the subwoofer manually (like with Avia) for Dolby Digital Reference Level?

Thanks for any info.

As I understand it, Trinnov will not just adjust the dB level of all speakers, including subwoofer ( even the 990 does this), but equalize the entire system optomizing the sound for the mic position(s).
Since none of us has heard Trinnov yet, details are a little sketchy.

Trinnov will adjust speaker levels and distances. It will also do a ton of other things, most notably room correction/equalization and even speaker placement compensation. After running Trinnov's setup, you should not need to use AVIA's or Digital Video Essentials' test tones.

gonk: Ah, that's cool. In addition to your main and surround speakers, does it also calibrate the subwoofer to the correct Dolby Digital Reference Level, or do you have to calibrate your subwoofer manually with Avia?

The only reason that Trinnov really works is that it adjusts all of the channels. That includes the subwoofer.

While I agree IN THEORY, I think the jury is still out on Trinnov's effectiveness on LF content, particularly multiple subs or problematic rooms. The folks at SVS, for example, would probably claim their sub equalizer can improve LF performance over and above full range equalization systems such as the various iterations of Audyssey, MCACC, etc.

But I sure hope Gonk is correct, as this would mean buying a stand alone LF equalizer is not necessary with the 998.

Technically, the question was about channel trim (whether to use AVIA to set the sub level or let Trinnov do it), and for that there should be no question that Trinnov will be able to do that. You raise a good point, though. The implementation of Trinnov is going to be key, of course, and we haven't seen what can be considered a definitive example of that in a consumer product yet. Sure, SVS and Velodyne are going to say that their subwoofer EQ's are still valuable in spite of tools like Audyssey MultEQ XT and Trinnov (not to mention proprietary tools like Anthem's ARC), and in some cases they would be right. Aside from unusual cases (multiple subs configured uniquely, acoustically terrible space, or users who want that "tweaking" capability), though, I would hope that Trinnov could offer effective subwoofer equalization by itself.

Well, that must mean that any receiver with this Trinnov system (like the new Sherwood Newcastle R-972 and the upcoming 998), in addition to being able to automatically set the correct trim dB levels for Dolby Digital Reference Level calibration of all your speakers, must also have full range equalizer hardware built into the receiver that can compensate for room interactions that can cause peaks and dips in the frequency response of your speakers at the listening position.

This means you could place the microphone at the listening position, turn on the Trinnov setup routine, leave the room, and when you come back, all speakers, subwoofer included, are now calibrated to Dolby Digital Reference Level and all the speakers are delivering a pretty flat frequency response all across the whole range of frequencies. From your tweeters in your main speakers to your subwoofer. That's pretty impressive, if it actually works that well.

Yes, that's correct. The Model 990 already offers the ability to automatically calibrate all speakers' distances and levels to reference, but it doesn't include an EQ. Trinnov should be a significant step forward from that. We've seen receivers and processors with this sort of EQ hardware for a number of years now (Audyssey, MCACC, YPAO, and other systems). Trinnov is supposed to take what other systems offer and take it a step further by both providing a good EQ with spatial re-mapping (compensating for speaker positions that aren't optimal, such as a center channel that's too high or low or surrounds that are not symmetrical).

From this rather detailed review of the Sherwood Newcastle R-972, it doesn't sound like this Trinnov system works reliably.

Oh and both receivers he got for review, the first one and it's replacement, broke or didnt work right. Makes you wonder why Outlaw would even want a receiver based on this one, even if there weren't all the delays in it's release.

http://www.audaud.com/article.php?ArticleID=6969

Mabey the problem is more Sherwood than trinnov. The Outlaws feel that this is the best technology going and the haven't missed one so far.
This could be the feature that distinguishes the 998 from the rest of the market. I'm waiting with baited breath.

If you read the announcement that cancelled the Model 997 and announced the Model 998, they made the following statement:

"With this new product, we will implement Trinnov so that it works the way it is meant to be used - and heard!"

The Model 997 was to be based on the Sherwood R-972, but Outlaw cancelled it because it didn't do what they wanted from it. Was it because the Trinnov implementation didn't achieve what the technology is capable of? Was it due to reliability of hardware samples? Was it due to bugs? I don't know, but Outlaw decided to pursue the Model 997 long before a production sample of the R-972 was available to test-drive.

Why not keep the same face as the existing A/V products? They are far better looking than the RR2150, which is what this rendering resembles. Furthermore, keeping the same 970/990/1070 style face would maintain consistency with the appearance of the various Outlaw amplifiers.

Simply changing the appearance to keep it "fresh" is a poor move when the existing designs are clean and sharp.


RR2150 front view: http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/rr2150_gallery1.html

vs.

990 front view: http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/990_gallery1.html

I like the idea of a new face. Will the amps be updated to match?

I like the new face too!
The 990 is difficult to use, as it doesn't have nice dedicated source buttons. The tiny litle dots there is, are too close together, and so much you had to use a menu for. If you had the remote handy, this is less of a issue, but When I go to the 980, I don't like having to scroll through stuff to get to the input I need...my wife hates it...

I know that buttons cost a bit to add, and that's why many go with menus instead. However, we are not talking about a $200 receiver here; and yes, I know the the economy of scale isn't with us. Still, a world class machine needds to be easy to operate, and a well thought out ergonomic panal is one thing I need, please...

Add my vote to those who like the new face!

As a 970 owner, I like the old face. I am not big on changing something just for the sake of changing something!

I have no love for the old.






The new design is simple, which is fine and I'm not going to spend a lot of time looking at it. I think the only thing I'd like is a true black front instead of charcoal or the gray. Main reason is that my other components are black and the outlaw component looks like odd man out in the rack. In fact it doesn't look as strong or sturdy as a brushed metal look. Take the new design and incorporate a brushed meta look and it would look solid.

I'm waiting!!! Still!!! Bought a 7125 amp two years ago. Still in the box. Come on all ready.

tic toc

http://www.time.gov/timezone.cgi?Eastern/d/-5/java

barumba -
Wouldn't be a bad idea to get a temp pre/pro replacement since you have the amp just sitting there. I'm on my second temp replacement since the first announcement of the 997. I bought a 7500 in anticipation with a 970 purchase shortly after. I've since sold that and am using an Onkyo nr807 (using pre-outs to 7500). At the right price on the used market you can sell it for what you pay for it.

I am quite pleased with the Outlaw mono blocks and LFM-1 EX that are part of my set up. I am looking at picking up a new processor or receiver this year. It would be nice to see a list of current features as they become finalized in this implementation. I have seen the list of features from the initial announcement but I understand things can change between then and when the product hits the market. I am interested in the HDMI 1.4a implementation and the networking capabilities offered by this spec. Has this been ruled out for the 998?

Many thanks.