What if made in US - a poll

What if the 978 had been made in the US. It certainly would have cost more. For lack of a better rule of thumb, lets say it cost $2499. Would there be any takers.

My rational is that it is not quite double the price.

I would be on a pre-order list. Just curious if the cost is the major driver for Outlaw products?

Only if the US made unit had Trinnov. Couldn't justify paying that much for what the 978 offered on paper.

Cost is definately a factor for me, at $2.5k, the Marantz would be an easy decision for me as an alternative.

The $1,500 price point was already getting to be a stretch for many people. Jumping to $2,500 would further narrow the field. I know that I'd have a real hard time making that price point work within my home theater budget.

Sounds like I am in the minority.

Just curious as to the value proposition of made in the USA.

Made is the USA certainly has value to me. I do not belong the the "more features is better" camp but the build and SQ would have to be top shelf for me to consider anything over 2K.

I suspect that among the VAST majority of consumers the "value" of "Made in the USA" is almost nil , at least in terms of what they will actually open their wallets to support.

The other side of the coin is that going back to the first Outlaw products made overseas there were real differences in the ability to find firms in the US with the willingness to participate in the design and construction of the kinds of products that Outlaw wanted to offer. The lead Outlaw, Peter T, has been quoted as saying so much and other CE firms have expressed a similar set of frustrations when they wanted to scale up US based production too...

Personally I believe that some things may have changed with regard to utilizing US based design team(s) and then getting final assembly done in the US. Perhaps more thought should be given to breaking down the various analogue output stages / phono inputs from the more "specification oriented" DACs, DSP/room correction, format decoding, digital video features. I might be way off base but my gut tells me that some of those things could be done by "board level" build contracts which ought to isolate Outlaw from any one firm killing the project. Of course the downside is that a mindset of such a de-integrated manufacturing process is that some kind of "assembly line test / validation" process (including perhaps specialized test equipment...) would have be developed and each subcontractor would have to adhere to high standards to ensure all the boards can be successfully assembled into working units at the final production step. That likely will add cost / complexity. The upside is that construction of each sub-assembly can happen more quickly and the odds of the entire project seeing the light of day would increase. It is even conceivable that some US based firms might be interested in the board level work, in contrast to being uninterested in "the whole enchilada". The fact is the changing landscape of DOD contracts has created a fairly decent boom in firms that have designed and built a wide range of drones / remote sensing equipment to give the US a technological edge in Iraq and Afghanistan, The wind-down of those efforts may be causing the smarter firms to look for other avenues to keep their workforce productive. There very well may be an opportunity to find firms that can do better / higher level work on a time table that is not possible with SE Asian manufacturers. (of course if the guys at the top of those firms have no desire to go from DOD level markup sin the 5 figures per board to the CE world were board level margins typically are measured in cents then the blame for more folks ending up on unemployment rolls falls to the their bosses not any overseas competition...)

Finally I think that too many folks forget that not too long ago Japan was a major hub of actual CE manufacturing. The long downturn in the Japanese economy almost certainly has created opportunities to revive some of the once mighty productivity of Japan. The culture of Japan's business has been shaped by being a very long term ally of the US; its workforce is generally regarded as not just technically proficient but also motivated to bring democratic participation to the factory floor in positive ways. Japanese workers as well Japanese business leaders and political / thought leaders have been known to all behave in much more collaborative manner than those in countries were human rights abuses were central to the rise of political leaders. In short I would value a "Made in Japan" designation nearly as highly as something made domestically -- in fine optics Japan's precision is largely seen as unrivaled, so to are the CE offerings from the past...

Being made in the USA would add close to zero value for me. It's all about the finished product, and if it had come to fruition, I don't think building it in the US would have increased the quality.

The issue with USA production is that a lot of people in the US are lazy. There are too many firms who are simply not interested in making money unless it's a bucketload of money and comes nearly for free, without any effort expended. As soon as it comes time to actually put in work, all bets are off. Don't get me wrong, it's almost the same situation in Canada and even many parts of Europe. The fact is that many overseas companies are much hungrier for income and it shows in their willingness to work and develop.
Willingness to sweat.

You'll see a lot of talk about the depressed economy in the media and the lack of work, etc... And it's a shame that a lot of the folks affected don't have opportunities while may of their compatriots regularly refuse potential work.

I tend to agree that countries with a nice cushy set of "support mechanisms" do foster a degree of laziness BUT I honestly believe that more than the laziness there is factor that comes from higher levels of leadership -- the folks that assume if you can't make "internet billionaire" type money from a project it ain't worth trying are a big part of the reason that start-up activity has been depressed. Even more of a factor are the policies of too many level of government that bend over backwards to accommodate the lobbying of bigger activists while ignoring the "little guy". Some of the screwy results of this sort of thinking can be seen in the ever escalating costs that all levels of government seem willing to accept while regular working stiffs are forced to pick up the tab.

In the context of my comments about defense electronics firms and the contrast to consumer electronics the history of so many things shows how wrong the "lobbyists" have been. Whether one looks from the perspective of what drove the FCC to move toward HD TV and subsequently delay the sunsetting of SD broadcasts from the perspective of either consumers or the heritage US electronics manufacturers it is pretty clear that there was no real benefit to either side -- regulatory interference was unable to "save" US based TV makers NOR give consumers access to a broader range of OTA options... In the world of huge defense electronics firms the lessons of the recent need for drones and other advanced technological systems has shown that tiny start-ups can deliver better products more quickly and with far more competitive pricing, yet the lobbyists for the traditional firms continue to manage to DOD officials to grossly overpay for the largely non-productive R&D of the giants...

The drive of innovators in the US and the dedication of small teams of dedicated folks that really want to do things a better way needs to be fostered and encouraged. IF there was some way to "vote with your dollars" for not just "Made in the USA" but "Innovated and Dedicated to building the USA" maybe folks would see more value.

I guess I am in the minority as well then. I wouldn't have batted an eye at paying $2500 for the 978 if it had been made here. Where a product is made, does matter to me. I work in the semiconductor industry, and way too many jobs have been moved offshore due to cost reasons. I for one do put my money where my mouth is.

There is no way an American made 978 would have come in at 2500. Are there even ANY processors made in the USA? Would there be any factories at present that could manufacture for Outlaw or would they have to build one.

I value the Made In the US approach, but in this case it would be way out of my price range.

Recall that B&K manufactured excellent product in the US and with street prices comparable.. I agree that Theta and Lexicon built processors with astronomical prices, but B&K would be a legit comparison.

B&K produced one HDMI-based processor (v1.3), the Reference 70. It had a list price of something like $3,800 but included some limitations on the audio processing side (couldn't support bitstreaming TrueHD or DTS-HD over HDMI, although I'm 99% sure it could accept multichannel PCM in addition to multichannel analog). They had plans to release an updated processor and a bitstreaming upgrade to the Ref70, but went bankrupt before they could get either into production. The remains of the company were bought by ATI, a long-standing partner of Outlaw's, but I don't know if there were enough resources there to help with the design of a current platform.

$1500 for a Chinese made 978 ... I could have swung that finanically, but would not be
happy about buying a Chinses made product.

$2500 for a US of A made 978 ... I would have to save up longer to swing it financially but would be very happy to buy a US of A made product.

Paul

I think gonk is 100% correct in associating the failure of B&K with its inability to dedicate RESOURCES to a modern pre-pro as any kind of financial difficulties.

I can fully envision that this was a huge part of the decision of Outlaw to find a "manufactuting partner" that was willing to bankroll the potential "money pit" of development in exchange for signing away any rights to the fruits of that effort. Sadly that decision was made when the competitive landscape was different.

It is my belief that the maturity that HDMI now has achieved makes such a trade off less likely to be a necessity for future designs. Think how many iterations of HDMI have been seen in the marketplace since Outlaw embarked on the 978 project -- it was once rare to encounter source components / displays / AV receivers - prepros with such connections and now it is essentially ubiquitous. Surely there are individuals that could be hired / contracted that could architect a design to be implemented on a relatively firm timetable.

Think too of the price premium that HDMI commanded just a few years ago. If we extrapolate both the scarcity of those with skills in implementing HDMI as well as the very different labor market that existed a few years back it is not a stretch to say that the premium for a US designed and assembled prepro may have been more than 2x than a similar product built in cooperation with an Asian manufacturing partner. I certainly could not have swung $3500 for a prepro.

The real question may be can a prepro be assembled NOW stateside with subassemblies built in in either in the US or overseas, with designs OWNED by Outlaw in a reasonable timeframe at a "competitive" price? Well if the Outlaws don't want to end up like B&K I suspect THAT is exactly what they are deciding upon...

renov8r, your assumption may or may not be correct about the failure of B&K. They released the Ref 70 a while back. You guys may very well be right that the Ref 70 was the last nail in the coffin. The advent and implementation of HDMI has cost many electronic integrators big, big problems.

I am banking on the ATI folks to come up with a US made processor. With Theta and B&K in the stable, they may have the talent to pull it off. Not sure if the Outlaws will be involved, but they are my best hope of being my next processor purchase.

I think a lot of folks are really interested in sound quality over bells and whistles. I followed the release of the Ref 70, and the street price was less that the $3,800 gonk reported. The comments on AVS on the limits of the unit made me wait. But I believe they had a quality sounding product. My situation is that I have a system that has a mixture of HDMI for video and digital for audio. When I buy another processor, I want something with superior audio quality over HDMI.

I have not seen any sort of rumors about ATI getting back into the pre-pro biddness in a long long time. Though there are lots of older ATI units still driving moderately complex residential & commercial installation -- when those fail who knows what the custom integrators will need to do... The speed with which firms went from "upstart" to "market leader" to "flame out" was a function of a whole lot of craziness in the residential real estate market and the pace of technology change. With the sorts of turmoil that still is the norm in China I would not be betting on anything.

I live in Sweden and for me it isn't that important if it's made in Germany, use, Canada or whatever. I avoid products being made in china since it's impossible to have a good quality control then. it's a myth products not made in china has poor value, often it's the opposite, especially with speakers, high quality speakers last longer and sound better. ELAC make their high quality speakers in Germany and their budget speakers in china, their quality control seams to pay of in both sound and durability.

lets take two speakers A,B. speaker A is made in Germany for the prize $5000 while speaker B is made in china for the prize $4000, if speaker B lasts 5 years and speaker A during 15 years until you sell it for $1000 which speaker has been most expensive to own?

Anjora, you don't know what you're talking about. As previously mentioned, some of the best products in the world are made in China. So long as quality control is in place, where something is made doesn't matter. It's all about WHO is making it.

PSB Speakers used to make all their products in Canada, but for years now they have had many built in China, including the amazing, award-winning and super high quality built Imagine series.

Apple builds everything in China. I dare you to find a single consumer electronics product with even half the same quality as Apple products built in any other country.

Apple dont offers that good quality but still better than the avarage maby. Apple managed to get people beleave their products have superior qality, this is a combination of marketing and only releasing pruducts in the premium segment.

This is what i would consider as high quality https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ua95wiuIa4I the 10 year driver warranty is mostly a way to sell since it's almiost impossible to brake a elac driver.

Some of the best products in the world are made in China? I suppose that's true, but it's also true that some of the worst products in the world are made there too. They still can't make anything near cutting edge missiles and such and that is what they've been putting much of their resources to for the last decade or more. Anything good from them tends to be someone else's design that they've 'borrowed' or the foreign corporation has control from beginning to end. For the most part. I think that's Apple's situation too.

A better question might be which Chinese national corporation makes some of the best products in the world? They might get there one day.

Apple doesn't offer good quality... Hmm, OK then. Sounds like someone who's never designed or built anything, nor taken anything apart. Someone who doesn't know the cost of materials and machining, let alone specialized technologies to accomplish that machining.

Who cares about Chinese national corporations. We're talking about fabless manufacturing here. Anyone can design and have products built in China. I recognize a ton of crap comes from China. But honestly, people bashing don't know why.

It's not crap because it comes from China. It's crap because it's designed to be crap and CHEAP. The companies buying it to resell aren't concerned about the quality, they're concerned about the price. And it can't be made equally crap for the same price elsewhere. Even crap costs money to make. Try pricing out some of the stuff you consider garbage with the same level of quality in the US some time. I have - and know plenty of others who have also, dozens and dozens of times over the past 15 or more years.

Missiles? Seriously, who cares. That's more to do with politics than engineering. You know what though, I should just quit now. Why bother in the face of bigotry and xenophobia.

Bigotry? Gee man, get off your soap box.

macbook pro offers good built quality but other companies offers that as well, i am more scectical against other apple products like iphone and ipod.

there have been examples of companies moving back from china to Europe due to issues with quality control. another reason for companies to avoid china is the lack of IP right etc, just look at what happened to outlaw 978, seriously what did they expect from a Chinese company?

I think the situation that resulted in Outlaw being left up a creek without a paddle was not just the location of their "manufacturing partner" but the circumstances that brought them together in the first place. Outlaw likely did not want to get stuck pouring ten or hundreds thousands of dollars into a design effort. Firms that are willing to assume that kind of risk are pretty rare in the US, but when there is such a firm it generally either has some legal wizards to ensure that no one gets left holding the bag OR some "daddy warbucks" of financial backers to ensure that even if things go south the firm / team stays viable. Neither of those situations is currently the case in China. Outlaw made a decision that, when they embarked on the project, did not seem as risky as other partnerships BUT THE LANDSCAPE CHANGED and the inherent risks of doing business in China with the kind of firm that both has the capabilities to deliver such a product AND work with others came back to doom the project.

I suspect the competitive landscape may have AGAIN recently shifted and if Outlaw learned the lessons it needs from this episode AND can adapt quickly there is a strong possibility that there will be other products that offers value soon. If they can't adapt no amount of "boycotting the competition" will help Outlaw's bottom-line...

Agree renov8r. My thought is the fault lies with the managment at the manufacturing plant for assuming there was no conflict of interest instead of actually checking with their main customer. I can easily imagine that things were fine until their main customer showed up for a quality audit or product launch or something, saw the line being setup for the 978, asked "What's that?" then the proverbial fan and feces met. That can happen anywhere you have weak/clueless managment.

However there is the possibility the plant just lied to both Outlaw and their other customer, got caught and had to sack Outlaw or loose their big customer. I can see this happening in China more than elsewhere...

It could also be a mix of these. Based on personal experience with building owners during design of new buildings, I could see the manufacturing partner's other client deciding that they need to impose new restrictions prior to starting some new project(s) - either because they feel it is necessary for their business, or because they feel that they have enough authority to do it and it makes them feel better, or some other (possibly crazy) reason.