More Frequent Updates

Alot of people are wondering about product updates on the 978. I am one of them. I am wondering about product updates on several Outlaw products. Is there any reason why we can't get a monthly update on this stuff. I asked a simple question on ICBM-2 thread about an update of any kind. I posted that back in February and still have not gotten anything. How about speakers? The old saying "no news is good news", is a load of crap. Something to let us know that at least there is a minute bit of progress, would be great. Either the owners have accumulated a hellacious pile of cash, and they just don't care about losing customers, or they've already gone broke over the 997 and 978 and just don't care anymore. I would still buy this thing when or if it came out, but there have been some pretty aggressive-sounding posts in the past about the delays. Personally, I don't think it's the delay that is irritating people or turning them to alternative products, I think it's the lack of communication to the customer. If all you sell is Audio/Video equipment and you are only developing one new product for 2 years and everybody is going nuts waiting for a simple update, then why not email everyone an update that takes 10 minutes a month to type?! I'm a loyal customer and a small business owner and I don't want to sound like a prick, but it's just a tad bit unprofessional to not send out an update to people more than twice a year. We're not looking for financial statements from Outlaw, LLC. We're trying to figure out where to invest our money and who to invest it with. We would like Outlaw to help us decide. So can we get some kind of an official update on the 978? And for crying out loud, how long does it take to respond to a simple question about the ICBM 2?

I agree completely of course, not that it does or will matter.

jkvoth, I must say I tend to agree. Just let us know. I love all the Outlaw equipment I currently own and sometimes loan items out to friends to try to turn them on to them. I must say I'm a loyal customer as well AND try to promote your awesome products. Updates, regardless of what they are should not be too much to ask IMHO. And where I read the post that stated something about being called 'liars' because there wasn't a deadline made or something, I think should be taken as a grain of salt. There are always setbacks. Just my few cents. Since the Marantz 6006 (I believe) is offered is this a sign we should look at other products? UGH!

>Perhaps as a Marantz dealer they need to carry x number of products to maintain status. Just a guess.<

That too, Bob.

I too, love my Outlaw equipment but I have moved on to other processors. I don't upgrade my equipment enough to care about the latest stuff out there. At this point though I really think PeterT is either not communicating because he wants to surprise the gang or it is bad news and he doesn't want to lose us. Either way, people are tired of waiting and want some news.

Update please?!?!

It is ironic to note that it is a year to the day we saw the picture of the forthcoming 978. I must admit it is very unusual that in almost three years two units were announced that eventually fell by the wayside and now a third which hasn't even approached the pre-order stage. I do love Outlaw products but given the amount of water that has traveled underneath that consumer electronics technology bridge, one has to really wonder.

Peter hasn't posted anything on any of the forums since the first week of January. Scott hasn't posted anything on any forums since early December except a note to explain how a previous 978 update got deleted (by accident) a couple of weeks ago. Not particularly confidence inspiring.

Best,

It has been quite a while since I've posted here. I forgot my password and the account was linked to an old email account that no longer exists, so instead of "Cadboy" I am now as you see my new username.

Anyhow, I felt the need to post an opinion about this.

Outlaws, I understand the tight-lipped stance here. If nothing is said than there is no liability. Let the consumers theories run wild, then simply spring the big surprise on them when the unit is ready to ship. WHAM!! All is forgiven and everyone who has been waiting will now have their new toy.

Well, I also think such loyalty from your customers deserves a little respect. A small progress update every few months goes a long way. Not a comittal on a release date, but just a few words to all the loyal customers as to how things are going. Like, for example:"Hey guys, we are shooting for a target release in July, however, there are several technical issues we are working with our supplier to resolve, so this date is VERY tentative. We will post updates as the date draws closer."

Something like that at least aknowledges that there are consumers waiting for updates, and are basing buying decisions on this.

As an internet company with a public forum, it should be a priority to keep the public informed as much is reasonable without having to cast a date in stone. We are adults, we can handle it if things get delayed. Just keep us informed and remove all doubt.

I have been following the progress of some new speakers on another site. The owner frequently posts updates so those who are waiting to place orders have a clue as to how long it will be, and then can adapt as needed. Nobody is going to condemn you for supplying some real info.

Just my opinion Outlaws. I hope we hear something soon.

Let's see if Cadboy64's carrot works better than jkvoth's stick.

Or is the horse already dead?

It seems logical (to me anyway) that if steady progress was being made then they would want to share some of that with the community. However, they may not want their competitors to know the status of an unreleased product. Also, as high-tech audio devices become more complex the debugging phase can become quite long and unexpected bugs can delay the development. On top of that the rapid changes in technology and the obsolescence of parts just a few years old can cause more headaches. Each problem potentially compounds into several others. The design specification can also become a moving target as time passes and new technologies become available and others become dated and less desirable.

I have no idea what's happening inside Outlaw but as an Engineer I would hate to have to give updates on a blog about the products that I have in development.

If you worked at GE or some other traditional manufacturer, I'd agree. But this is a "virtual" company that has always prided itself on the lack of brick and mortar distractions, has always marketed and fulfilled orders via the Internet, and has previously had an active voice on their own forums. Their customers have come to expect a regular flow of information/chatter from the company. Outlaw employees more or less stopped posting here, on ANY topic on anything approaching a regular basis. Check Peter and Scott's public profiles.

I'll go further and say that very little of consequence has been released by Outlaw in a couple of years. A tabletop ipod dock? Really? I don't claim to know anything about the financial state of the company, but as an outsider looking in, things appear bleak.

Best,

I see a fair number of online ads for their non-AV receiver. It seems like a good value for those that need / want a two channel receiver. The broader audio forums seem to have a decent number of people that recommend the Outlaw amp for both those initially creating a home theater setup as well as those upgrading from "box store" systems.

Bleak is really hard to define given the ongoing economic problems that are giving fits to all kinds fairly well funded retailers...
http://business.financialpost.com/2011/12/14/best-buy-woes-suggest-more-troubles-for-u-s-retailers/

Gentlemen, the fact that Gonk has not posted lately, I think means that the unit is beta testing. All we need to do is wait on gonk to post again.

I certainly hope I didn't come off as someone who is angry or anything like that, because I'm certainly not. But it does look like the horse is dead. First, M&K. Is Outlaw next? Crap, maybe I need to stop being so loyal to these companies. I'm starting to think my money causes bankruptcy.

mj wrote: "Gentlemen, the fact that Gonk has not posted lately, I think means that the unit is beta testing."

That would be my guess.

I think many of us surmised that 2 or 3 months ago.

I guess as normal these days, we're not going to hear from anyone. :-/

Maybe Gonk has found so many problems they don't know what to do?

Or maybe Gonk is in audio nirvana and forgot about everyone.

If that was the case then Outlaw would have a pre order page up already. I would bet my bottom dollar they are having some serious issues that they can't figure out and have no idea when and if they will.

Outlaw will not release anything that they don’t feel is ready which is certainly admirable and good business practice.

Is it possible that designing a modern processor from the ground up is an insurmountable task for a small company outsourcing to a foreign design team? Sure they will throw out some features like networking, multiple DSP modes, fancy UI,...., but they still have room correction, video processing and other required features to handle. The final product will surely meet the expectations of their niche target customers but I would also think it is a stretch to believe the SQ and durability would surpass products from larger companies with dedicated design teams. I am rooting for Outlaw and hope they produce another game changer like they did with the 950. -Bob

Well, Scott went to China a bit over 2 months ago and we still haven't heard a peep. Hopefully, he at least got to catch some fireworks during Chinese New Year.

I suspect they'll eventually get around to releasing the product and that it just won't sell in any significant numbers. After 2 Mulligans, I don't think they can afford to whiff the ball again. However, it does make me wonder how they plan to support this product going forward if they can't even get/keep the attention of the Chinese engineers at this stage of the game. Normally, this is the time when the Chinese manufacturer would be all hot and bothered and smell money in the air...eager to please...and all that. Seems like they skipped straight from the honeymoon to mid-life crisis.

Best,

This is one of my greatest concerns, also. It is admirable that Outlaw wants to release a bug-free product but it is inevitable that occasional firmware updates will be required... indeed, Outlaw makes specific mention, in each of their rare announcements, of how painless a process this will be. Will we wait forever for these updates once the urgency of releasing the product has abated?

Also, I remain dumbfounded by the ongoing silence regarding the status of this product. Countless examples show that there is nothing to lose and everything to gain by keeping the lines of communication open.

I agree GaryB. While I enjoy my 990/7700 combo I wish that the marketing side of Outlaw Audio had kept their mouths shut about an upcoming, updated, brand spanking new processor. The audio video market is ripe for some good sales in all areas of Home Theater AND two channel listening.
There is a High quality Home and Audio store not to far from me that is giving 20% for equipment that you want to upgrade.
They made me an offer of $400.00 for my 990 sight unseen.

I am considering the Integra...DHC 80.3/DHC 80.2. The $400.00 was based on the 80.3.
I have to do some comparisons. I know that the 80.3 has a lot of bells and whistles along with 9 channels.
That's three channels I will never use since I have a dedicated HT room and I only have the capability of using six channels b/c of speaker placement.
Again I have to rob the piggy bank and I have negotiated with my better half but I am still at this point holding back from pulling the trigger b/c of the 978s arrival.
It's not easy.
Hearing no information for months frustrates me. I want to remain loyal to the Outlaw team. They make a wonderful product and there support (Scott) is excellent but I am beginning to think that they will have to make a better offer for people like myself and I believe many others for them not to jump ship.
Price point and the bells and whistles are going to have to be substantial with today's market climate given the competition.

Certainly support issues are a valid point, but given the overall length of time that Outlaw has been doing the direct internet sales thing with the range of amplifiers, receivers, processors, speakers and accessories it strikes me as more than a bit "chicken little-ish" to suggest that the viability of the model is collapsing -- I still see banner ads for the two channel receiver on many internet sites every day.
While I too am a little annoyed that several months have passed since the publicized trip to China w/o any update I wonder if that is necessarily a sign of anything bad about the product. Reality suggests that in a small organization the impact of even minor problems that may creep up, from employee health to demands on one's time may not have allowed for a fully thought out response to the progress that has been made with the product. Further, while I seem to recall that there was originally a target mentioned in the announcement of the 978, which has long since past, there has never been a firm shipping date talked about -- probably to avoid any finger pointing, though that does not seem to have been avoided...

For all we know the evil manufacturing partners intent on destroying a nonexistent US based consumer electronics assembly business have more than lived up to their end of the deal, with a dozen or so fully functional production line roll-offs that are fully tweaked with software that is "golden master" but global currency conditions have driven the price of the commodity electronic components too high for Outlaw to seriously consider moving forward for with marketing. Bigger firms routinely will exert pressure on their suppliers to absorb a temporary loss in margin and/or allow substation of lower fidelity components in the audio chain to meet a price point, neither of those options would make sense given the Outlaw size / positioning...

That said the announcement of the availability of the Marantz receiver a few weeks ago did mention that Outlaw would have other developments in the coming weeks and months. Traditional electronic stores have often timed sale events to coincide with people's spring tax refund, a period that generally happens near to the tax filing deadlines -- if there is no announcement about the 978 in that time frame maybe that would be indicative of a more major change in direction.

Fellow outlaws, it is my humble opinion we boycott this forum. Maybe the utter silence will entice these guys to give us an update. I don't care what it is, but I am getting extremely annoyed. This is extremely unprofessional. As an outside sales rep, even if you have to tell the customer "I don't know" or ultimaley deliver bad news, that is what you do. This silence is maddening. Either this is truly the most secretive lot in the business, the 978 is in development hell, it's never coming out, or these guys are simply closing shop and trying to get every last amp sale. I have a feeling one day I'll click on my hotlink to the forum, only to find nothing here. So, fellow outlaws, I urge you, do not respond to this. Simply give them their silence right back.

LOL. I suspect their silence being met with apathy and/or more silence is what they're after until they figure out what's going on.

To be honest, I just don't see any value being offered by the Outlaw brand anymore. While I'm rooting for them and hope they'll pull a rabbit out of their hat, I'm having trouble visualizing how they'll get there. So what do you do when you own a brand with little perceived value, even from your existing clients? Throw lots of money at it to re-build the brand? Doubtful. Sell it to someone else who can fold it into their own brand(s)...perhaps another D&M Holdings stub? Maybe. Become the next "Audioadvisor.com" and attempt to make a living sifting through products and offering value to customers by distilling things down to product/price mixes from diverse brands that your clients might want? They're almost there now. If they're able to keep inventories at a very low level, it's possible that it isn't costing them much to keep the lights on...as long as they're able to maintain some operating cash flow. But I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for anything "revolutionary" or unique to their brand. That costs money and, as they say, that isn't growing on trees these days.

I look forward to seeing "the plan" if/when their management team decides it's time to reveal it to their customer base.

Best,

Fellow Outlaws:

Please know that we hear your comments and concerns about the lack of an update on the Model 978. We had planned to bring you our status late last month, but that newsletter was delayed until we had the results of some testing that is currently underway.
It will take another few days to fully analyze the data as it impacts the schedule, but the headline for today is that the results are favorable in a key area that means we will soon resolve the toughest part of this product, the implementation of XT-32. Our concerns over memory requirements have been addressed, and we'll now be on a path to completion that will be more fully described in the forthcoming newsletter.

The Model 978 is only one of the things we have in the pipeline and you will begin to see the results of that soon. In the mean time, we ask for your patience until early next week when we'll have a more detailed update.

Peter,

Just so you know we keep an eye on this board at ALL hours of day and night, I'm responding to your post of 20 minutes ago.

Thanks for the update, and I look forward to reading more about the 978 early next week.

Ditto.

Peter,

I hope you recognized the sarcasm in my post. Wouldn't be here if it wasn't for my genuine interest in Outlaw and it's products. I too, check this forum daily. Thanks for the update and letting us know you're still here.

Thanks Peter - I was about to PM you to suggest an update for the restless gunslingers out here when I noticed you on-line yesterday morning. Looking forward to next week's update.

Thank you for the update Peter.

Thanks PT.

I'm a new forum member, though a long time lurker! I read with excitement the news that the 778 is much closer now. It sounds like a real option for me down the road and I really hope it is released before June.

Hmmm only one post, could this be Gonk in disguise

See. That wasn't hard now was it?

What happened to early next week. Its hump day already. After noon its late next week. Cmon give it up.

In my mind, early in the week is Monday or Tuesday - no later.

It's one of those new metric weeks. There's 10 days. So he's got until day 5. :P

In any event, I feel bad for them. It must be tough to face the music with your clients when you have very little control over the timing of the outcome.

Metric week - ;-)

I know the feeling - most products don't hit Marketing's desired launch date.

A week is Monday through Sunday, so they have until the end of today!

Seriously, I would love to hear something involving a new Outlaw receiver. I miss my old 1050 and the punch of its amplifier section!

Well, your update is here to see. Thank you Outlaws for sharing and I am very eager to see what those other new product are!

Yes... the update is here all right. I'm grateful to Scott for posting it but I'm still trying to figure out how I feel about it...

Thanks for the upgrade. The odds of the 978 coming out before fall don't look too promising.

I have continued to be a scarce presence around here lately, but a friend told me to check out the announcement about the Model 978 so here I am (however briefly). It's a very detailed update, and a clear picture of how much else is happening in the background to move the project forward. It looks to me like they stayed quiet so long because they wanted to get an answer to the hardware obstacles facing XT32 before they said anything, which I can understand. It's hard to be excited with plenty of work left to do, but it is heartening to see that they have cleared some hurdles that appear to have been significant delays up to this point and have a plan laid out in front of them to get through to completion.

I agree late summer or early fall considering there are 2-3 months just to get the various certifications and at least another 2 months for bug fixes. Not sure if these can be done concurrently.

I bet one of the new products will be a speaker featuring H-PAS.

-Bob

Those other products coming out have me curious. Something with a remote control, which is just about anything I guess.

Wow....just wow. End of summer or late fall is quite optimistic given what I saw in that update. I think the lesson here is that maybe it is better to keep new projects under wraps until they're finished (or mostly finished). Personally, I don't think the 978 is going to be relevant by the time it sees the light of day, but perhaps there are folks that will buy it "just because."

As for the HPAS, that would be interesting. A review I read of the Atlantic product said that it was made in China. Sigh....

Best,

^^^

Why would you say the 978 won't be relevant when it's released? There are VERY few pre/pros out there with XT32, with none I know of in development. That in itself makes it relevant. Plus, it sounds to me like the Outlaws are really trying to nail this thing and will cater to those of us with champagne tastes but beer budgets. Yes, it's taking longer then anyone would like but I appreciate Outlaw's honesty and sharing of the technical issues they are trying to overcome.

Firstly, I definitely appreciate the information flow, even when I felt the information was negative. The silent treatment was foolish.

MultEQ XT32 is available today (and has been available since 2010) on a number of Onkyo/Integra and Denon products. I'm assuming that it's also available (or will be soon) on Marantz products since those come from the same company that manufactures Denon gear. A nice feature, though I note that all the platforms that support it today are 9.2 rather than 7.1...interesting. However, it doesn't make up for the long list of missing features that are found even on low-end AVR's these days which have been discussed to death in these threads. I just don't see the appeal. But hey, maybe I'm wrong. It happens from time to time. Maybe the sound quality will be so mind-bending that people will be willing to overlook the missing features.

Best,

I would have liked some confirmation of a price point. It definitely sounds like the 978 is going to be more than $1500. Lots of R&D will do that to ya!!

I have to very respectfully disagree with Ritz2. I firmly believe that it is all the "features" that cause these types of units to be too complex and therefore prone to reliability issues. I for one would never need or use all the features that the 978 will not have. Heck it already has more than I personally will use now. The Outlaws promoted this from the begining as a "simple" processor with a focus on SQ. Well, simple it has proven not to be, but I am holding out for that mind bending SQ that we all love from previous Outlaw products. At the right price point, that is something I will still buy.

That's cool. I can't imagine how long the dev process would be if they hadn't left all those "complex" features out that have been integrated with even low budget AVRs from a raft of other manufacturers for quite some time now.

I think it would have to be pretty competitively priced to attract much attention. But we'll see what happens when it eventually ships.

Best,

OK, took me a while to find what y'all were referencing.



6 to 9 months would be my estimate.

I do appreciate the technical detail (and honesty thereof) about what they've been working on.

I read a post on AVSforum towards the end of the 2011 winter season where the poster was reporting that his Marantz dealer had been informed by Marantz that an AV8005 processor with MultEQ XT32 was coming out in the spring of 2011 to replace the very well reviewed but aging AV8003. Of course we all know what happened in March 2011; the earthquake may have changed some of those plans.

The newer Marantz model numbers now end on a "6" and a lot of folks are expecting an AV8006 to show up sometime soon. Considering that the lower end AV7005 has received excellent reviews, if an AV8006 MultEQ XT32 equipped processor with many more bells and whistles were to ship this year even at a $2500 price point (similar to the AV8003), it would definitely hurt Outlaw's sales of the 978.

If you visit Audyssey's web site there is a tool to search for products using MultEQ XT32. I didn't look at them all, but a number of them were in the $2-3K range. I suspect that number will creep downwards as it becomes available on more and more products. It basically seems to be the same as MultEQ XT with a higher resolution. It will be interesting to hear how it compares to the Emotiva Tact implementation. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that we might be seeing other AVR's with XT32 in the $1000-1500 range by the time the 978 ships. If that ends up being the case, the 978 will be up against much more full featured products at a price point that may be difficult for them to match with a low volume product like the 978. One thing that the 978 does have going for it is the inclusion of balanced pre-outs. It will be interesting to see how things shake out.

Best,

Bob wrote:
Yes, one will be a "sound bar" with H-PAS. As Peter told me, this is public knowledge because he mentioned it in an Atlantic Technology press conference at CEDIA. Peter demoed H-PAS speakers at CES2010 and the bass from them was impressive indeed.

Agreed Ritz2.



I agree, I would never use many of those extra features, but I would like to own a simple Pre/Pro that focused on SQ and contained a unique feature set that catered to the poor man Audiophile. The key is the right price point which I think should be around $1K? Much more than that and the competition closes as Ritx2 suggests. Just think if Audyssey releases an update (say MultEQ XT64?), we will see MultEQ XT32 below the $1K mark.

-Bob

If you look at the sparse MulEQ XT32 documentation available on Audyssey's website, they mention that XT32 is basically the same technology as XT but with 512X more filter resolution than their basic MultEQ 2EQ technology, i.e. 32X more resolution over plain XT for satellites and 4X more resolution for subwoofers. They also state that XT32 now has more than 10K control points (filter points). Tact Audio's digital room correction systems are also known to be over 10K filter points over the entire audio range (20-20KHz). It's been a criticism by Tact Audio aficionados and some audiophiles that Audyssey's MultEQ XT has an amount of filter points that's too low and somewhat insufficient. But I think maybe we should continue this topic on other threads like the: "Outlaw model 978 vs. Emotiva XMC1".

Interesting, Atlantic Technology is registered as an exhibitor at this weekend's Montreal audio exposition (Canada's largest audio show). I'll see what I can find there and report back.

bobm, looks like you'll be getting a lot of use out of your Yamaha. By the time the 978 arrives, you might be too attached to pull it out of your rack.

XT32 was announced Aug of 2010:

http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=127943

I'm a little surprised that it hasn't ended up in more products than it has. IOW, I don't think it's going to filter down to any more cheaper products than it already has.

Conjecture about something from Marantz with XT32 has been rampant for quite a while. But AFAIK, there has been nothing concrete that there ever will be a successor to the AV7005.

It’s been an eye opener for sure on many fronts. But it is always fun to think about new gear.

Did Peter ever make the other update this week? If so, I can't seem to find it.

Just the announcement from Scott 2 days ago. It's in the "announcements" section of the forums.

Best,

Thank you, I didn't see it.

In addition to the 978 Update in the Announcement forum, there was an email announcement for the OAWA3 Amplified Wireless Audio System.