Thread to bash the integrity of whatever...

Hate a specific country's manufacturing ineptitude? Come here to bash away...

Got a bone to pick with the troubles associated with production issues? Open your spleen...

Want to point out the other products that will relieve you of a need to wait for the 978? Type away...

(admins -- no offense taken if this thread is soon locked / deleted, but I would appreciate not being banned as I have been a lurker for almost a decade....)

Lurk away... we'll discuss what we want.

I saw some other posts in a Model 978 thread that thought I'd use this thread to make a few observations. These may be impacted by exhaustion and the distraction of a painfully long task list that needs to get dealt with before the end of next week, but for whatever reason I'm compelled to toss them into the mix...

1. The posts that triggered this thread seemed fairly benign to me. Outlaw accepts that the delays bringing a new processor to market are going to lead some consumers to look elsewhere - they've never shied away from this reality - and the competitors being discussed were all pretty solid options. Some have experienced problems, such as some HDMI board failures in a few Onkyo models, which is useful information to have when trying to make decisions. Most of the products being discussed in that thread were similar in price to the Model 978 or more expensive, if it matters. So far, no one has ever been taken to task by Outlaw for discussing other products in this forum, and as long as such discussions are kept civil and open-minded I don't see that changing, even when it occurs as somewhat off-topic chatter in a thread about an Outlaw product.

2. That particular thread (at least in recent weeks) hadn't focused much on where products were manufactured, but it has been discussed before in a number of threads and it will come up again. There are some people whose purchasing decisions are strongly swayed by the product's country of origin. Some of it is done as a way to avoid "higher risk" manufacturing sources, but it is more often done as a way to support alternatives that (potentially with higher first cost) are not built in those countries. The main country that people are avoiding in this regard is China - quality products can be built there with proper supervision and care in selecting a manufacturing partner, but the global economic impact of shifting more and more manufacturing there is something that not everyone wants to support with their own dollars. That is their choice, and it is going to be a subject of discussion whether you choose to make the same choice or not. I commend folks in this forum for making significant efforts to keep such discussion civil, and Outlaw has in past discussions been open about how economic pressures have led them to certain decisions while respecting some customers' decision to pass on Chinese-built products. (They've also made efforts to stick with domestic manufacturing for some product lines, even though it means they have to charge more.)

3. I've spent time in some forums where moderation is fairly active (even got banned from one of them, although that was a pretty extreme situation). This is not such a forum. It helps that traffic is light, but we also try to keep each other honest. The only formal moderation that I've seen done recently is nuking obvious spammers every so often. Only a handful of threads have ever been locked, and only a couple users ever banned. I don't know why you or your thread would be a turning point in this regard.

4. All that having been said, if folks wish to use this thread for its intended purpose, they of course can and will do so.

I am guilty of being one that tries to buy domestically made products. It gets harder as the years progress. As hard as I have tried only 7 out of 12 of my components are made in the US. (Fortunately for me, my Maggies are made in Minnesota)

It was hard for me to handle the fact that even Craftsman is manufacturing tools in China. That was my mainstay of “Made in USA”.

Lexicon is coming out with a new processor. I believe it will be made in the US. But at over $10,000, it is beyond what I would be willing to spend. My point being that if you are willing to spend significantly more, you can get products NOT made in China. And you have to be diligent in doing so. But if bang for your buck is paramount, you won’t find it domestically made products.

The reality is, and this has been the case for years now, something can qualify and advertise as being "Made in the USA" or should I qualify that by saying it is "Assembled in the USA", however, if you open it up and look inside you will find most assuredly that the parts come from the "Far East".

While that may be true, I personally (perhaps I'm in the minority) prefer to spend my money with companies that:

a. Produce/assemble product here.
b. If (a) is not possible, then I would prefer to NOT have my dollars feed a country that is actively hostile to the United States to the extent possible.

I have spent years working with and in China. Make no mistake...they consider us an enemy. However, they are content to do business with us to make money so that they can develop their businesses to the point that they don't have to deal with us (at least not from a position of weakness). They are at war with us economically and we're not even putting up a fight. I refuse to participate in the gutting of our economy to the extent I can. It isn't always possible to avoid, but I do the best I can.

So....do you want to help the Chinese government actively subvert our economy and our children's future economic prospects? I don't. There are plenty of other Asian countries with large affordable labor pools that are not trying to hurt us.

Best,

Very well said.

Glad I'm not the only one carrying the "not-made-in-China" torch!

And for the record, they're not just the US' enemy. A big target certainly, but they have their sights set on everyone.

I agree with the above two posters. When given the choice, I will gladly pay a little more to buy something made here, Canada, Europe, or Japan.

(I had an MC-12, and I just laughed when I saw the proposed MSRP for the new one.)

One thing that has dumbfounded me for years ... It is no secret that China undervalues its currency to artificially make its products cheaper overseas. In addition to the fact they don't really support the same environmental, social security, health care, pension, union costs, etc, that we and other developed countries have.

But this doesn't just affect us. I have Mirage speakers, made in Canada. No more. All their stuff is made in China now. And now there's word that newer Marantz AV7005's are made in China and not Japan. So my bewilderment is at *all* the countries of the world that put up with "the giant sucking sound" of jobs moving from their respective countries to China.

I don't get it. Not at all.

I think it has more to do with the Ferengi Rule of Acquisition #6:

Never allow family to stand in the way of opportunity.

Like it or not, US laws are such that the Ferengi choose to pray to their god rather than stand on principle. Take the case off your equipment and look at the innards. The word CHINA is in there and even if it is "assembled" in the US only 50% of that has to be done to say built in the US. I agree with the patriotic feelings that most of us share, but the reality ship sailed a long, long time ago. Hopefully Outlaw is able to control the quality as well as the cost.

I think rubber just might hit the road (or perhaps aluminum/composite hitting the [fill-in-the-blank]) when the American consumer is able to choose to fly in a "made-in-China" aircraft.

Jeff, China is entering the commercial aircraft market. You may get the chance very soon to fly on one.

China Commercial Aircraft

Kevin, I still am using an MC-12, and appreciate the build quality.

It must be that there are not enough folks like us for manufacturers to risk selling more expensive US made products. I call it "The Walmart Mentality". Folks are going to buy the cheapest product no matter where it is made.

Let's assume Outlaw decided that the 998 is going to be built in the US, let's say by ATI. How much more would building it in the US raise the price? Is it 30%, 50% double? I would be willing to spend more on a premium product if it was made in the US, and I bet others would too. SVS had good press when they advertised their subs were made in the US.

There is plenty enough to bash the government about rather than blaming it for your or my greed. The reality is while many American consumers don't care, American corporations (both on the buying and selling side) have sought to maximize their profits and in doing so largely removed the manufacturing location as an item of choice.

Ummm...

I know.

I've been in the aerospace business, on the technology side, for over two decades.

I've seen the Chinese in action first hand during that period.

I've met with hundreds of their scientists, engineers, managers, handlers, and spies.

Because I use my real name on everything I post, that's all I'll say except that while the opinion that I have formed about the danger that is China is personal, my professional life has given me insight(s) that the average person most certainly has not been privy to.

ps. I went through the C919 mock-up at last year's Paris Airshow.

While I'm not in the aircraft business, I can relate to the handlers/spies thing. Nothing like getting followed out from a conference by a couple of guys with earphones who also show up at your hotel, restaurants you visit, etc. The PRC is treating this as a war....while we roll our eyes and treat it as an inconvenience. Sending money to people that are actively trying to hurt us is self defeating. We, as consumers, can either play along or do what we can to not participate.

Re: C919

It was interesting to note that along with the gaggle of Chinese airlines that submitted orders, GE Capital Aviation was among them. Turns my stomach.

Best,

Change our tax laws and regulations and you may get manufactures to comeback to the US, eventually. Just look at the video of Steve Wynn saying that the way to be profitable is to be in China and that it's hard to be profitable here in the US. When I lived in Cali my neighbor was a VC and he sent his sons to China to see how things are being done. Like Wynn he said we could never compete with China with our current laws and regulations.

In the long run we have created this monster ourselves. We convinced the rest of the world that capitalism was the way to go but failed to foresee what would happen when all those countries with lower standards of living and labor costs realized thay could play the game and beat us at it. At the same time we went out of our way to invite cheaper markets here whereas we can't challenge them in their markets (NAFTA anyone). Trying to reverse 40 years of playing dead in the manufacturing arena by refusing to send $$$ to regimes who are competing against us is IMHO futile. When my equipment gives up the ghost or just becomes seriously obsolete, I will look for the best bang for the buck piece of equipment I can buy no matter where it is built or who gets the money.

I don't want this "we" label applied to me. I try very hard to avoid products made in China (where possible and reasonably affordable) and am willing to spend somewhat more for that. As a simple example, I buy Allen Edmund and New Balance shoes that are made/assembled in the USA and don't buy clothes that are made in China. I wish Outlaw would contract with someone like ATI to make their preamps and receivers.

>Outlaw would contract with someone like ATI to make their preamps and receivers.<
That would be nice but do you think ATI could do it sucessfully in the current market? I just looked at their web site and they don't have a current prepro nor does B&K unless I missed it.

Bob

B&K had been trying to develop one when they folded, but it had been severely delayed. I have no idea what sort of resources they had in place that ATI might have picked up when they bought the company.

It's precisely this attitude that has gotten us (as a country) into the pickle we're in. So do you continue the madness or do you try to fix it? Personally, I'd prefer to try to fix it instead of throwing up my hands and resigning myself to the fact that we're being co-opted. I'm not picking on you, in particular, since there are obviously a lot of people who simply don't care and follow the cheapest price wherever that may lead.

Best,

I live in Silicon Valley, and I cannot tell you how many letters to the editor in the local paper show up ragging on Apple, for example. The gist always is, they are making money hand over fist, they should take some of that money and invest in manufacturing in the U.S.

What those people fail to understand, is that it's the fiduciary duty of the board and executives of the company to maximize profits for the shareholders. And to do that, they have to make their products in China. If they did try and bring manufacturing back here, profit margins would go down, and they could be sued.

I love capitalism and our market economy. But it is far from perfect.

With that said, what I would love to see, for example, is once Outlaw gets the 978 out and rolling, do a "higher" end version, made here in the US (by ATI), with better parts, and see what it would cost. But then the issue becomes, for those of us that would pay more for something made here, how much more would we pay? And are there enough of us for Outlaw (or any company, for that matter) to do a version made here?

"Proudly made in the U.S.A."

Personally, I've never put a number figure on it, but I could see paying up to 50% more for something of higher quality made here.

Free enterprise is a core value of this country and has been since before its inception. We as a nation have consistently passed laws and regulations which make it hard to produce a quality product in the USA for a fair price. There is no viable way to change it since we pretty much spent 200+ years building it. Although some patriots refuse to sell our souls to others willing to make a profit, I prefer to recognize reality and buy items which I can afford which provide quality for a lower cost. Realistically how much more would we be willing to pay for the 978 if it were made in America. I maintain that the current price will be close to $1500. I would expect it to cost 50% more if made in America. Would the vast majority of OUTLAW customers be willing to pay that price when Marantz, Denon and Onkyo would then be the best bang for the buck. I expect most would not since we are almost all either owners or potential owners of Outlaw equipment.

I am not sure that a 50% mark-up for something assembled in the USA is accurate. This price differential doesn't show up in the price of automobiles made in China (for example the Buick Regal is made for the Chinese market by GM Shanghai). I won't say that this is a fully accurate analysis, but based upon what I could find in Google and doing a currency conversion, the prices are very comparable to what the same US model costs. I have seen arguments that the portion of the price of Apple iPhone that is the result of the manufacturing process is almost a nit, implying that the product could be assembled almost anywhere with very little impact on its price or margin.

Nonsense -- the Buick Regal for the North American market is assembled in Ontario.

For products like the iPhone the component cost is far more important than the actual "labor" of assembly and those components are made in China and other SE Asia countries.

It is fair to say that if the components were to be shipped across the Pacific the odds of saving more than a modest amount of money for assembly would be rather small, but that presupposes that whole manufacturing pipeline could survive the inefficiency of having slow downs like shipping in the lowest value rung of the final assembly stage. The various environmental and logistic concerns of having a mass scale product assembled in the US would likely prove impossible to overcome...

For a more limited scale product, like the 978, the various hurdles to domestic production might seem be easier to deal with, but the reality is that the techniques needed to build even limited distribution products like an audio receiver in anywhere other than SE Asia are have been hard to come by for probably 4 decades or more. Honestly take a "time machine" back to before CD playerss were commmon placewhen vinyl and 8-tracks rules and the products from Sansui, Pioneer, Luxman, Yamaha, Teac were built in Singapore or Japan.

The $12,000 McIntosh MX150 carries a very noticeable little screen printed tag: "Assembled in the USA from USA and imported parts". And I am sure the good people run D&M Holdings are at not making any excess profits from their "flagship"...

I suspect that the Outlaws did all they could to try to source a domestic source of assembly and found no suitable solution. Somehow I doubt that any "economic war" will be won by firms like McIntosh or Peachtree doing "final assembly" in the USA while the "guts" are put together in SE Asia...

Try to apply the UAWs wage scale in China with their benefits package and the requirements to have their factory comply with OSHA, ADA, EPA, Oxley-Sarbanesand a host of other requirements WE as a populace of the US of America have enacted over the last 20 years and see if anyone but the factory owners can afford one. Next time you are over there check to see if the elevators in their building have the annual inspection certificate required in the US. Also, if you check closely you will see that the Buick Regal is a rebadged Opel Insignia. It is assembled in China but it is a significantly different car than the one assembled in Canada and IMPORTED into the US.

Let's pull apart any US built piece of electronic equipment and see if the word China is inside. Anyway you shave it your $$$ is going to someone outside the US. Cheap labor and lack of stupid regulations are the drivers. Our minimum wage of $7.65/hr is as much as many in asia make i a whole day.

The point I was making was that the Buick Regal made and sold in China (probably with some US and EU made components) sells for approximately the same price as the Buick Regal made in Canada for the North American market. They are basically the same cars with perhaps engine, safety and trim differences http://carscoop.blogspot.com/2010/01/new-buick-regal-gs-gm-rebadges-opel.html or if you prefer http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedans/112_0905_2010_buick_regal_drive/viewall.html

Similarly with the iPhone, I was pointing out that manufacturing cost was a very small part of the overall cost of the device (the primary portion being Apple's profit).

Consequently, it is my belief, that it is possible to assemble (at minimum) a device like a pre-pro in the United States from components that are all not Chinese at a price mark-up that is substantially less than 50%.

Renov8r: As for the $12,000 McIntosh, I would not be surprised if more than half the total cost was either dealer or manufacturer profit. I would guess that the actual manufactured cost to be more like $4500 per unit (perhaps less).

If it could be done at the same profit margin I am pretty sure companies would want to use American labor because it is generally much more productive and the government is less corrupt and more stable.

I have not professionally dealt with Chinese firms, but have experience in Mexico. It is sad to see the working conditions and poor pay. I would invite all of the Wall Street occupiers to visit a Mexican border town. Those of us in the 99% have it pretty darn good.

Comparing doing business in China or Mexico it is obvious why made in the US carries a heavy premium. And to me, it is obvious why so many of us have the Walmart mentality. We want to maximize our return just like big business. I wonder how many crazy people there are like me, that when they go into Home Depot or their local department store, actually look on the packaging for country of origin? I bet it is a very small percentage.

Not trying to get into politics, (had that on AVS) but would Outlaw gain any customers if they built (assembled) the 998 in the US? I guarantee you I would buy it. That’s at least one. I would pay up to twice the price of the 997.

It seems logical to me that ATI has the capability to assemble complex electronic hardware. I suspect there are other factories in the US that could as well. Heck I have a switcher from Zektor that is made in the US. Outlaw could advertise “The only home theater processor made in the US for under $XXX”.

Come on Outlaw, build us a processor made in the US.

You may be short a digit or two. My point is the country or origin of the parts is still not the good old USA and never will be again. Most of us are Outlaws because we don't want to go with the whole big box store thing and want the best bang for our hard earned 1% $$$.

The original argument was about buying products made in China. My point was that assembly could be done in the USA. I can't speak for all of the components, but it was my understanding that at least some of the key parts for the 978 were from Japan (which was part of the reason for the delay). I would be willing to bet that between the USA, Japan, Singapore, Thailand, and Taiwan almost all of the component parts could be acquired without resorting to Chinese suppliers. The biggest unknown is probably the software. I have to believe the Outlaw got a huge deal there.

I for one will wait until the 978 is out a few years and then reserve one if it is as good as advertised. Regardless of where it is constructed, if the quality control doesn't support the design then it will not succeed.

I understand your point about all the components will never be made in the USA. However, a company can buy parts from competent suppliers, but build the darn thing in the states.

I also agree that the big box store is not the best bang for the buck. And you may not think buying domestic products are the best bang for the buck, and not worth any extra expense. I prefer to support domestic suppliers whenever possible.

Change of topic: I was in Home Depot today and found light bulbs made in Poland. It is a global economy if you can build light bulbs in Poland and ship them to the states cheaper than you can build them here. Light bulbs are pretty light by volume. Maybe it is because they were incandescent and Congress is outlawing incandescent bulbs and we have to get them from Poland now.

Another regulation that is changing the way our economy functions. Even though it seems inconsequential, apply the process across everything we consume and the effect becomes incomprehensibly large. I own a lot of quality equipment from the 70s that was built in the USA and is still functioning perfectly. When I bought it the trend towards Japanese stuff was in full swing and gradually their equipment became the mainstream as I could not afford Macintosh, or Phase Linear anymore. I still enjoy music and now HT which means I buy what is available at a cost I am able to justify. I agree that a company CAN buy components and assemble a piece of gear here in the states, but the cost always seems to be jacked up partly, I am sure, because they can say it was built in the states and partly because of extra costs involved. Being a BBFTB kinda guy, I don't see paying a premium to allow a manufacturer to take advantage of my pride in America.

XenonMan, let's agree to disagree on this subject. I am sure I am in the minority.

Jacket_Fan: I hope not. And I just wish I could find LED lights that weren't made in China.

An interesting article about offshoring. Kind of detailed if you can slog through it. The gist is: it isn't as profitable as you think to offshore manufacturing.

http://www.manufacturing.net/articles/2012/01/miscalculations-in-moving-production-overseas?et_cid=2426427&et_rid=54689337&linkid=http%3a%2f%2fwww.manufacturing.net%2farticles%2f2012%2f01%2fmiscalculations-in-moving-production-overseas

Interesting article but I suspect that the scale that the author has experience with is wholly out of the league of an audio products firm doing business today.

I suspect that very low volume product (under 1000 units / yr) will never make sense to send over seas, as the risk is just too great.

Further I suspect that firms that have shifted VERY high volume manufacturing to multiple overseas facilities likely have learned the hard way that overhead costs virtually force them into consolidation in the lowest cost country regardless of how badly that hurts return rate and similar quality metrics. That seems the main point of the linked article.

My guess is that the Outlaws' target is far higher than 1000 units / year (though well below the sky high volume of the linked article) and their current efforts are needed to ensure the "return rate" is very small...

Another one:

http://www.manufacturing.net/articles/2012/01/will-re-shoring-take-off-in-2012?et_cid=2427218&et_rid=54689337&linkid=http%3a%2f%2fwww.manufacturing.net%2farticles%2f2012%2f01%2fwill-re-shoring-take-off-in-2012

Kevin, a positive note. Listen up Outlaws, there may be a case for some domestic manufacturing, and you guys are just the ones to lead the way.

I have my reservations about whether a small firm like Outlaw could pull off manufacturing here in the states where larger firms have failed. Two firms that come to mind here in the USA that have survived over the years are Macintosh and Magnepan. Both of them have sterling reputations and fill a niche in the market. They also don't over-reach. They know there strong areas and tend to stick to them.

Acquiring a building and staffing it with clerical, assembly line and security people, not to mention training the workforce to assemble product would be a multi-year project which would probably result in a reduction in quality in the short term. I just read where controlling interest in Onkyo USA was purchased by Gibson Guitar and they are now the second largest owner of Onkyo Corp. If a big company like Onkyo needs investment funds where does a small firm stand a chance?

In recent years, there has been considerable consolidation in the CE industry and I am afraid even the venerable brand McIntosh is no longer a US based company having been purchased a number of years ago by D&M holdings the Japanese organization makers of Denon and Marantz, and along the way they have purchased other brands like, among others, Snell and Boston Acoustic speakers. Magnepan is one of the few still manufacturing domestically in Minnesota.

I suspect it won't be long before D&M gradually guts McIntosh, using some of their generic "platforms" assembled in China, slapping a McIntosh faceplate on it, and profiting off the brand. It sounds laughable, but in a world where "audiophiles" will spend hundreds or thousands of dollars on relatively generic cabling with fancy techflex covers and (mumble)-plated connectors, anything is possible.

Best,

I think your comments just further exemplify how gullible some of the so-called "high-end" community is that in the case of McIntosh specifically, as long as they can have that characteristic front panel, they will continue to pay no matter the cost. Also, in reference to that, I can recall a recent review of McIntosh's new Blu-Ray player($8,000) that when all was said and done, sadly, its overall performance and features didn't even measure up to a mainstream $200 player(but of course, there is that McIntosh front panel).

Grado still manufactures their stuff here. Not "electronics" per se, but their headphone amps have some electronics in them.

In can be done. And it can be done cost competitively.

I know. I work in one of the few remaining semiconductor fabs in Si valley, and our costs believe it or not are still competitive with the Chinese fabs that come knocking at our door every year trying to take the business away from us. But we are a low volume, high performance analog/mixed signal house. (Digital is easy peasy, analog is more of an art.)

Although they have been owned by D&M since 2003 and by Clarion since 1990 Mcintosh still assembles their equipment in the USA in Binghamton as far as I know. Anyone know anything to the contrary? I agree eventually their name will be put on some garbage electronics and sold to some knothead for a huge markup but I hope that day is a ways off.

Personally, I was hoping that Outlaw would work with D&M to have McIntosh build the 978/998 for Outlaw. It would certainly give them more profit out of their factory than they have been likely to get otherwise. The differentiation could have been a combination of components (e.g. higher quality DAC's, more memory/faster CPU) and functions/features that are in other D&M products (e.g. Networking). I know that Gonk said D&M would have no interest in this, but it made some sense to me.

I would think it would be similar to asking Ford to build the Camaro on the side.

Nah, I think the good people at Audio Note are really gonna assemble the 978. http://www.enjoythemusic.com/superioraudio/equipment/0810/audio_note_uk_ongaku.htm

btw I have sources telling me all new 2013 Mustangs are being hand assembled my some nice chaps that work in the McLaren plant in Surrey instead of the dreary old Ford plants,the higher volumes ought to really the help the bottom line of the Formula One champion, right? http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/nov/17/mclaren-new-sports-car-factory-david-cameron

XenonMan and renov8r:

I guess its a dumb idea, after all D&M Holdings would never agree to build speakers for Outlaw in competition with speakers Snell Acoustics was already making.

I should also have realized that Outlaw that would place too big a volume demand on McIntosh Labs. After all, if Outlaw sold 880 units per year, this would be perhaps 4 units a day.

TV's Made in the United States? Yes, if you believe this link:

TVs Made in Michigan

Can this be true? Also note the comment about manufacturing in Michigan vs. China. I'll be watching this closely.

Now that's what I'm talking about. It is possible to do if you WANT to manufacture/assemble here. As I've said before, I find it hard to believe that there is any significant cost savings by outsourcing *assembly* of electronic components to China and then shipping the resulting units to the US. But you've got to WANT to do it. However, based on Peter's previous comments, there does not appear to be any will to buck the outsourcing route.

Ritz2: While I agree with you in concept, I can also see that Outlaw, with its virtual model, would need to find a willing partner to take on the manufacturing role. Perhaps ATI and D&M Holdings wouldn't or couldn't and they couldn't find an alternate. In that case I can understand them going off-shore. I would just have preferred them going a non-Chinese route.

I agree. At the end of the day, it's a private company run with a handful of employees. Their reason(s) for pursuing their current offshore design/manufacturing is not a matter of public record and they certainly don't need to justify it to anyone. However, there are clearly a number people like myself who will not purchase a Chinese manufactured unit when other viable alternatives are available.

Best,

I the computer / cell phone you are posting from manufactured in Detroit?

www.computersmadeinusa.com

www.usstuff.com/cellphon.htm


I guess viable alternative is a relative term...

Actually, my phone is made in Korea (Samsung Galaxy S II). My work laptop (Dell) appears to be made in China. However, my home rig is self-built with (to the extent possible) parts from Taiwan, Japan, other countries in Asia. I think I ultimately had to settle for a power supply that was assembled in China and I'm quite sure that lots of the smaller sub-components were sourced there. The highest value parts (cpu, gpu, memory, hard disk, SSD) were all from places other than China. I do what I can. Sometimes there really isn't an alternative. Personally, I prefer not to hand bricks to the guy who is trying to dam the river that waters my farmland, even when it would be more convenient (in the short run) to do so.

Best,

I sure hope that Outlaw is not planning on using Foxcon as its manufacturing partner in China. And I hope that my RR2150 is not made by them either. <edit adding > or companies that operate in a similar manner.

http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-tic...-172800495.html

The stuff down in the link is even more interesting/depresssing.

Ignorance is bliss, aay?

Timely article --- http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/22/busine...;pagewanted=all

The key points touch on the fact that there are simply too many downsides beyond costs of trying to get anything built by US electronics assemblers. Given that it is a story in the NYTimes they bend themselves in knots trying to avoid implicating traditional supporters of the party of the donkey, but it is hard not to read the article and see where factory owners and investors undoubtedly would have loved to be able to offer firms like Apple the flexibalities that are impossible in an environment where the work situation / hiring status of every employee is subject to rules laid out by DOJ attorneys...


The perhaps unintended consquences of using legislation and collective bargaining to bolster the "rights" of American laborers has been to so severaly curtail the employment of such workers as to render them nearly extinct.

Ferengi rule of acquisition #181:

Not even dishonesty can tarnish the shine of profit.

---

Exploiting workers = "helping them out of poverty"

Nice.... <rolling eyes>

And I'm the farthest thing from a bleeding heart liberal that you'll meet...but this has to stop.

Depressing.

Who do you blame? The company for doing what they are supposed to do, which is to maximize value for the shareholders? The U.S. gov't for not doing a better job of promoting and subsidizing manufacturing here? The customer, who in general, just wants their products cheap and doesn't care where they are made?

Depressing.

I dunno if it is depressing so much as just "the way things currently are".

It is not just that American consumers want "inexpensive goods", they also want weekends off to watch their kids play soccer and they don't want to have factories anywhere in breathing distance that belch out noxious fumes.


Maybe in a decade or so Chinese consumers and workers will want these things and manufacturing will shift to Africa or some other even more lawless place...

Sounds like you would prefer going back to the pre-1863 set of labor laws that this country used to have. You might also prefer living in a third world country.

The problem is that the supply chain for the parts no longer is based in the US. In order to compete, companies build factories where they don't incur a lot of shipping costs. We are no longer the major consumer market that we once were and our regulations are way beyond any other manufacturing country. I read the article and was very impressed that a shift foreman could mobilize his workers (8000 of em) to start work and get the job at least working in the middle of the night. That kind of response is probably not available to a small company like Outlaw, the way it is to Apple, but it speaks volumes about the work ethic of both countries. It is unfortunate that getting an engineering degree in this country no longer guarantees you won't be flippin burgers to pay off the school loans. The asian markets also employ a lot of quasi engineers with the right skillset but not the diploma that has all the extraneous junk courses required in american colleges.

Neither. I think that the specializations that suit countries where low skill labor is the predominate form of industrialization are no longer suited to the US. The consequences of fewer people being involved in such employment in this country ought to be that more folks take on the greater value-add functions. To some extent this is true -- firms like Outlaw require people saavy in audio design, consumer marketing / communication (maybe they need to beef up that function),technical support and other areas that do not lend themselves to "line workers".

Yes, I am well aquainted with the arguement "every country needs some garbage collectors" but I simply reject extending that to say "every country ought to have a functioning high-value consumer electronics assembly business". For a whole multitude of reasons that seems unrealistic.

I might conceded that low volume /high cost audio firms have employees with skills similar enough to those working for proto-type shops / defense contractors, and in some stretched sense are conceivably part of the broad "strategic work force", though I have not really found that arguement to be convincng from the whole "I don't want my stuff made in some country trying to bury us" set.

Perhaps if the economics pressures that have presented themselves to the global economy result in more US workers being prepared to accept the conditions that exist in overseas factories the ability for high value firms to find a US workforce to fufill the "Made In Amercia" pleas of some will materialize.


I suppose the continued growth of wealthier workers in far away lands may also dampen their competitive edge.

From a global competitive standard point I suspect that the elite in China are probably already importing McIntosh electronics to show off their wealth. I wonder how that will work out...

Two things:

a) Just how many Outlaw 978's do you think will be sold in China?



*Something* has to be shipped *somewhere*. Whether it's the parts necessary to build a 978, or the final product. So that argument doesn't work for me. Whether you ship the final unit from China to the US, or the parts necessary to build one from there to here, there are still shipping costs.

b) Mobilizing a workforce to work at midnight. Work ethic? How about that that is really just a form of corporate slavery in China?

I hate to say it, but a lot of these seem to me to be "excuses" and not "reasons" why something can't be manufactured here.

There *are* products manufactured here, and those companies can compete just fine with the differences between here and there.

The point I was making was that as long as the rest of the world didn't buy so many products and the US consumer did, it made sense to have factories here. Now the rest of the world buys more stuff than we do and it costs much less to ship from over there than it does here. How many 978s do you think will be sold? If the 10000 threshhold gets crossed I think Outlaw will be able to break about even. Now think of how many much larger competitors will sell their equipment in orders of magnitude more. Like I said before, a small company like Outlaw has to be nimble and not invest in a lot of infrastructure in order to survive.

There are quality electronics built in the USA but they are way out of my league and I make quite a bit of $$$. I want bang for the buck and if it means China builds it, so be it.

10,000 978's? Really? I would be surprised if Outlaw sold a total of 10,000 990's and 1050's combined over their product lives. Consequently, I was expecting that the 978 would might sell 3,000 to 5,000 units over the product's life depending upon the length of the product cycle and whether the 998 cannibalizes sales after it is introduced.

You're expecting the 998 to be introduced? Really?

I asked a while back how many 990s were sold. Does anyone have a older version of the 990 so we can compare serial numbers? Might get us an educated guess. Remember too that the 978 has to cover the 997 R&D to to break even.

Unions killed manufacturing in America and sent the factories packing and they ain’t coming back for good reasons. Americans have a sense of self-entitlement, they think because they were born in the wealthiest Nation in the world they are owed a standard of living well beyond what the rest have. They, or their Unions, demand $25 hr. for an illiterate employee with a 5th grade education to pull a lever on a production line. A GM production line employee puts in only 5 years on the job and yet has a pension & healthcare for life – what do you think those billions we gave them recently went to, we bailed out the Unions not GM and yet the Unions are still here, and ready to strike again. Union construction jobs require a “union” elevator operator to push the buttons on the elevator at a jobsite and when he does not show up – the entire jobsite shuts down because no one else can push that damn button! Seen that on happen myself.

And people wonder why American’s don’t make anything anymore? American's don't want low paying jobs, we don't starve to death in the streets if we don't work as I have seen in many countries, in fact America is the only Nation in the world who's poor are obese!

I have an American two-channel system, got my Manly Stingray II last February for $2,800. Same integrated Amp today is $5,600 because they are made in “Chino not China” and raised their prices 80%. Why anyone would want to run a manufacturing plant in the most business-unfriendly State in the union is beyond me, and the consumer pays for that honor. It’s a very sweet tube integrated and I love its sound, but it’s not worth $6,000. Just this week the volume knob went out on it - is that the Union America Quality I paid so much for?


Unions were necessary at one time, they did great things for the workers of America but there time has LONG passed and with orgnizations like OSHA we don't need them as watchdogs.


Another thing that really pisses me off about Unions as a Vetran who has fought for this country; in every war since WWI Unions who were producing vital wartime supplies had held strikes for higher wages. FDR had to intervene in WWII and most recently in Iraqi Freedom the Commanding Officer had to relieve Union dock workers and replaced them with his own troops because they refused to work longer then 8 hours and demanded breaks every 2 hours. The 101 Airborne had a Goddamn WAR to get to and these great American Union workers could not even put aside their "union values" long enough to help send these boys off to kill and die for them. It makes me sick every time I see those "Union Pride" bumper-stickers, what a friggin oxymoron - Union PRIDE!!!

Did you know that the labor cost on a union made car in Detroit is TWICE that of a non-union BMW or Nissan build car in Georgia, and that these Georgia non-union autoworkers actually make more money then their union counterparts? The Unions have tried like hell to to get into these plants and the workers DO NOT WANT THEM!


Unions are on their way out, the sooner the better.

I read the above union-bashing rant, and then plopped a cd into my system - the rant didn't improve the sound of my gear at all - doesn't FOX news have a forum for this kind of vitriol?

Well at least it is the correct thread for bashing... ;^)

Please, please Outlaw-in-Chief, won't you share with us some news so that we can speculate on actual product delivery???

NBRQLou

Of course it might help if Zo-fo even had a clue about what he was talking about. For example Manly makes its products in the USA and apparently always has.

http://www.manleylabs.com/galleria/factory.html

Not quite the same company since EveAnna took over after winning the company from David during their divorce, but their gear is indeed still made in America. I'm more of a VTL man, myself. I miss my compact 100's dearly. They are what got me on the "audiophile" bandwagon in the first place.

Best,

I believe that she has been in control of the company since 1996.

The Manley "factory tour" is a very interesting feature of their web site. I have no idea if all those in house operations add up to a higher quality sound reproduction than if the functions were done by contracted shop elsewhere, though it certainly does help to explain where all the overhead costs. For the sake of all those good people in the photos I hope that Manley can continue to find buyer for its pricey products

Just wanted to comment on Zofu's union rant,I am a union man and have been An elevator operator,I am not an illiterate, I was tought first aid, cpr,I am licensed and certified in quite a few different machines and specialities.If it wasn't for unions you would be working 7 days a week for a pittance with no benefits such as health insurance,vacation and sick time,and if I didn't show up for my elevator job,I would be out of a job,I don't just operate it I have maintain it and know the safety aspects of it also I have to be licensed by MY STATE to operate it.SO get your facts straight before you rant.

Hi loopy:
>If it wasn't for unions you would be working 7 days a week for a pittance with no benefits such as health insurance, vacation and sick time<

All very good things and I am sure you could include increased safety in your list as well? But I think this goes back to some of the earlier points in the thread. Overseas manufacturing has none of this which makes it very difficult for the US to compete. Interestingly after the state of union address there has been a big push to bring manufacturing back. I see that Apple is being targeted and the president spoke about Master Lock.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/michelinemay...cts-in-the-u-s/

-Bob

Understood,I myself am in the Constuction segment,but some of the manufactureing unions seem to take advantage of their benefits and it's too bad because we need as many jobs as possible back in the US,read somewhere recently about the cost of human life is built in to some of Apples products such as the I phone and such,some of the Chinese worker were commiting suicide.

Years ago, after I got out of the Navy, I worked as an ET at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory. It was operated by the University of California. There was a vote for us technicians to unionize. I did not feel the need for a union and voted that way. A majority of those that voted felt the same way and so the union did not get into LLNL. LLNL is now under different management and I have heard that it is nowwhere near as benign as UC was.

I now work at SLAC, which is managed by Stanford University. There is a union for various trades. It strikes me as a fairly weak union, but it does afford some basic protections. I can see the need for a union at SLAC due to the way management treats people. If there was a vote again for a union and I was allowed to vote, I would vote for one at SLAC.

That's what I am saying just protection so you are paid a descent wage and treated fairly by management.

I have been a union worker for close to 35 years. The above is true that unions for the most part work to ensure good wages, benefits and that members are treated fairly. I will say that unions are not perfect and I have seen the good and the bad. But in the end I am very glad to have worked in a union environment for as long as I have.

The biggest issue I see from some members in my union is they do not get involved in local matters. Those members are the ones usually complaining the most about one thing or the other. Pretty much like the person that complains about goverment affairs but doesn't vote.

Bill

The union bash is a red herring. While I agree that the labor unions in the US have been complicit in the mass exodus of industry from the US and have largely outlived their usefulness, it doesn't really factor in here. The cost of labor as a percentage of the cost of producing an audio receiver is relatively small. The bottom line is that small companies like Outlaw don't WANT to own their own production capacity. They are simply creating a product using a mixture of components already in production and designed by others to create a finished product with their name plate on it. Their value proposition is limited to a friendly service staff, quality documentation and (to the extent possible) software tweaks on top of the commodity hardware. So if they want to maximize their profit, they need to keep their supply chain lean and confine production to where all the components are produced. That doesn't mean they couldn't assemble things here, but that doesn't maximize their return on what is likely going to be units shipped in the low thousands.

To be honest, it hardly seems worth the effort when the large players in the industry are able to more quickly come to market with current product and enjoy more profitable economies of scale in the production process. I'll be curious to see what the Outlaw (and Emotiva) product looks like under the covers and see how it differs (if at all) on the software front from whoever is selling it to them as an OEM.

So it's ultimately up to consumers like us to decide if we want to feed this system that is encouraging a transfer of wealth to a hostile country or do we shop for brands that choose another path (potentially a more expensive path for the consumer) that results in trade with domestic companies and/or companies trading in countries that aren't actively trying to subvert our economy (and ultimately our ability to buy their gadgets).

Best,

I think the different viewpoints that have come out in this thread are very interesting, and that most of them, while different, are all still valid in one way or another.

It's a complicated issue to be sure.

Do you seriously think Emotiva and Outlaw are using the same manufacturer? Or are you suggesting there is some manufacturer that is selling another "box" with the same features as the forth coming Outlaw pre-pro? Or one from Emotiva?

???

I think you are mistaken in how low volume electronics contract manufacturing works.


Even when Outlaw was still using the parent of Sherwood-Newcastle as a "manufacturing partner" there was NO reciever under development for Outlaw and there was no non-powered pre-pro being cooked up for SherNew...

The world of contract electronics is not like the days of Buick slapping a different label on the same platform as Chevy / Olds / Poncho. The "VALUE ADD" work is done by electronic designers / engineers that own / work for the stateside firms. Often they build a "wire wrap" hand built proto-type to verify that the stuff that, on paper, ought to sound good / not melt down / emits nothing scary REALLY does all that it is supposed to. The contract shop MIGHT have folks to do PCB boards OR they'll expect the client to deliver "production ready" board layouts that came together AFTER the wire wrap stage... There is no "upsell name plate" nor is the same product going to another firm. The "leanness" truly mean that the low value / low skill stuff that is better done by contractors close to the component supplier(s) makes not just a price point possible, but a whole "laborless assembly" firm to exist.

{btw I don't have enough evidence to either support or refute the assertion that there is some kind of strategy to "subvert our economy" by anyone either inside or outside our borders but somehow I think it is an awful long stretch to think the best way to do this is by pitting folks like the crew in EveAnna's photo tour against who knows how many / few folks in China that probably prefer life in a crowded factory dorm to life in a subsistence level Mao era farm town, but then again Kurschev probably had three shoes with him at the UN...}

Suggest you take in less caffeine and re-read my posting slowly. I doubt Outlaw and Emotiva are using the same OEM. My comment is simply that they're both very low volume niche sales outlets for gear assembled by 3rd parties in China for them. As such, I'll be curious to see what lives inside the boxes when they (eventually) ship.

And if you can't see the Chinese government strategy to subvert our manufacturing economy then there's not a whole lot I can say. Pick up any newspaper, search google, and open your eyes. They're not even particularly interested in hiding it anymore.

Best,

Most pre/pros and receivers from all of the various manufacturers share some common components such as DAC's, video processing chips and room correction software. However, with receivers you will notice that for the most part the amplifier architecture is different between brands. With prep/pros it's a little more vague, but most companies develop their own product prototypes and then outsource the manufacturing. Some may be produced by the same foreign manufacturing firm, but the end results are unique.

I'm sure when the 978 arrives and it can be compared to the Emotiva products as well as others, there will be noticeable differences.

I'm not going to touch the Chinese topic but being in the furniture and cabinet making field, it pains me to learn of the closing of numerous North and South Carolina furniture and cabinetmaking companies as they move production over seas. I don't have the answers as to why, but it's painful to read the stories.

Are stateside firms designing the 978 or is that all done overseas as well?

Bob

IIRC, Peter T had previously posted that the software/firmware programming was being done in China. I have not seen any comments about the electrical design.

http://www.outlawaudio.com/about/factory.html

"Factory? We're Outlaws! We don't need no stinkin' factory!!"
It's true, we have no factory, and we never will. If you are not building huge quantities of products, factories are very inefficient and add unnecessary overhead to the final manufacturing cost. We are designers and engineers. First we spec and design our products, and then we locate the best possible venue for their manufacture.
We are convinced that by matching a specific product to its ideal manufacturing venue, we will always deliver the best and most cost-effective A/V components. This development and manufacturing model, combined with a direct sales channel exclusive to the Internet, allows us to offer the best possible values to our customers.

The software and firmware bits are what is important here. The hardware platform is likely to be someone else's commoditized design. What actually gets "designed" by Outlaw other than the dimensions of the box and faceplate would be interesting to know. Anyone? I think Peter mentioned something about Scott going to China. I could be mistaken, but unless there's another Scott @ Outlaw, Scott Jackson is a sales/marketing person, not an engineer.

Best,

Again, I most respectfully ask what it is that is duplicative of the upcoming 978?

I would be curious to hear you explain your view of who / what is offering a "commoditized" overall design for any prepro...

Walk into any sort of store that sells ANYTHING related to "audio" in the broadest sense and while the functionality may be similar from a "30,000 foot level" the fact is there are relativeluy few offerings with the feature set that has been promised of the 978, and here I don't just mean the "software", but the analog portion of any pre-pro has LOTS of design decisions. Everything from what sorts of input tolerances are allowed to how the volume controls are designed have a rather immportant impact on what ultimately is sent to the amps. As has been discussed before there are only a handful of pre-pro units that could be considered "electrical peers" of the presumed features of the 978 and the value proposition of most of that small group is considerably more constrained -- many can only be considered the sorts of products that the top 1% of earners would ever be in a position to buy.

I find it odd that the skills /qualifications of a founder of Outlaw are being questioned. Scott Jackson's title, as Director of Sales, has included a hands-on role in product development, internal and external testing, logistics, QC, vendor relations and many other tasks that in a larger firm would certainly fall onto more specialized staff. The leanness of the firm and the past success have probably forced many competitors to re-evaluate how much overhead makes sense in this day of highly virtualized production.

Finally I find it most curious that you consider the "software and firmware" as so important, yet continue to suggest that there is something bad / cheap / undesirable about "standardized offerings". Taking that literally I would suggest that highest value software in the 978, the room equalization, is definately a "product" of the LOS ANGLES CA, USA based Audysssey LLC ( founded by Tomlison Holman & Chris Kyriakis of USC's Imersive Audio Lab) which is certainly offered, in admittedly a wide range of variations, by a huge variety of firms, all of whom do a substantial portion of their assembly in a part of the world that you are vehment in your distaste for...

Jeebus, you're going far afield...to what end...who knows? Wow, Tom Holman...there's a name I haven't heard in ages. I've still got an original Apt pre-amp that was designed by Tom. Not sure what your fascination is with EveAnna, though I suspect she'd get a kick out of it. We actually went to college together and I started off my audiophile odyssey with a pair of VTL compact 100's. Not sure what that has to do with anything, but since you're sharing, I felt obligated to contribute. LOL

As for the Outlaw pre-amp, you're fooling yourself if you think it's going to turn out to be anything more than a reference design from some other player in an Outlaw box with (perhaps) some firmware bits unique to Outlaw's "design." If/when the darned thing ever ships, surely someone can open one up and confirm that. Given the cozy relationship with D&M Holdings, that's where I'd place my bet. That doesn't make Outlaw bad or incompetent, but nobody is going to design and build a custom unit at that price point and with what I'd imagine are going to be relatively low production numbers.

Re: Scott

He's a great guy and I've spoken to him a couple of times on the phone. However, he's not an engineer or a software developer. Call Outlaw's number and ask him for yourself.

As for my distaste for production in China, I think we all know where I stand. Feed that monster at your own peril.

Best,

I am not sure what the argument is here. I don't recall Outlaw proclaiming that any of their products are designed from the ground up by Outlaw. The amps are from ATI with a different faceplate, at least the high power ones. (Which are manufactured in the USA by the way).

I have only seen that they sell products that they have oversight in development and stand by their product with superior service.

I am curious to know if there is any permanent engineering staff at the Outlaw hideout. Does anyone know? Gonk?

I agree with Ritz, there is notthing wrong with this business model. It seems successful for Outlaw.

I would not call it an "arguement" so much as friendly speculation and refutation. My contention is that there is so limited a set of offerings in the pre-pro category that it is all but impossible for there to be some firm cranking out "generic reference designs" (whatever that might even mean is quite a mind twister) just waiting to order its yellow horde to slap name plaques on 'em to knock a death blow to a non-existant US based industry.

Just becuase the Outlaw business model includes reselling Marantz pre-pros does not mean that they have any more ability to tap into the D&M "supply chain" than a firm like Best Buy would tap Panasonic to build its house brand TV sets...

Similarly if one was to speculate that perhaps Outlaw partnered with a firm like ATI to supply some schematics / prototypes for the 978 I would wonder if there would ever be anything "under the covers" to link the "heritage" of that firm's costly solution to the likely much more affordable 978...

Firms like Denon, part of D&M, do not even offer a pre-pro. Other competitors, like Onkyo / Integra would seem highly averse to sharing technology / manufacturing with Outlaw and their much leaner business...

While it can be fun to speculate on "who makes what for whom" in my limited experience the similarities between the various products assembled by large off shore firms is all but nonexistant. The well built responsive iPads churned out by hundreds of thousands working in Foxconn plants are nothing likethe junkiy Chimei LCD monitors made by the same firm.

I do. This is from the announcement that the 997 was being cancelled, and replaced by the 998:

"Given our experience with the Model 997 project, it is important to emphasize that our new flagship processor will NOT be derived from an existing platform. It will be an Outlaw exclusive design, built from the ground up to our own specifications and manufactured for us by a well respected consumer electronics manufacturer."

FWIW, here is a quote from "Peter's Processor Update" (10/01/10) where he first introduced the Model 978:

renov8r:

I find your statements above almost bizarre given Outlaws own history which you appear to know little about. As an example here is the lineage of a previous Outlaw prepro the 950 as quoted from the 950 thread.



Now there are two Eastech's (possibly related). One in Malaysia (that OEM'ed the 1050, 950, 970 and 1070) and the other in Taiwan. The latter does manufacturing in China and is exactly the type of company you say doesn't exist. Note: I don't know if Eastech OEM'ed the 1050, 970 and 1070 to anyone else.

Going back to history for a bit. The 990 came from Inkel in Korea who owns Sherwood Newcastle. The 990 and Sherwood P-965 lines are extremely similar from the pre-pro perspective (as was the R-965 - Outlaw at one point sold the remaining R-965's). Inkel was also the partner on the failed 997 which had its own Newcastle equivalent the R-972 including the Trinnov.

A little bit of googling on Inkel found this:

Perhaps I should have included the limiting condition of "HDCP Compliant HDMI pre-pro with room correction" to clarify that my recollection of what the 978 has been promised to be is signficantly different than pre-amps of the previous era.

I rather doubt that Inkel will be the manufacturing partner for the 978 and like GaryB I tend to think that the only way to get a 978 will be through Outlaw.

I would agree that manufacturers have been having problems building reliable HDMI pre-pro/receivers of any sort with 1.4/1.4a perhaps being the most difficult (hence devices like the HDS-12). At this point there are a number of designs out there with HDMI 1.3 including room correction including the Sherwood R-972 (which has pre-outs).

FWIW, I don't think that room correction with the exception of Trinnov has been all that difficult as many manufacturers have released room correction using Audysssey based chipsets as well as room correction from others.

I suspect that "going it alone" (as opposed to being beholden to other manufacturing partners that left them in the lurch -- like Inkel) as well as the level of difficulty of integrating all the features AND the OSD and having a bit of a "moving target" with regards to the competition have all factored into the delays with the 978.

Those same factors are also why I suspect other smaller manufacturers are so reluctant to enter this market space. It is a heckuva lot easier to offer some "sonically astonishing" new DAC, tube based two channel device or even things like speakers, power amps and black box "problem solvers" than it is to make a "clean sheet of paper" product that has to meet a high bar for simplifying what is often a complicated process of storing multiple room correction measurements for current advanced room correction.
The possibility certainly exists that Outlaw and its chosen manufacturing partner are not up to the task. I prefer to speculate on the more optimistic possibility that tweaks to the UI and/or similar adjustments to a mostly solid beta test that would elevate the upcoming product / make it as polished as any of the other offerings from Outlaw...

Check this one out. Pretty impressive pre that has been out for a while.

Denon Pre/pro

jacket_fan: I agree but did you notice the product is HDMI 1.3 compatible not 1.4 or 1.4a. I suspect that this is where Outlaw is having its greatest challenges with the 978.

Denon makes the AVR-3312CI that offers pre-outs as well as most of the other whizbang consumer-driven features on modern theater receivers....all for an MSRP of $1099.

http://usa.denon.com/us/Product/Pages/ProductDetail.aspx?CatId=StreamingMedia(DenonNA)&PId=AVR3312CI(DenonNA)

When connected to a network, the AVR-3312CI lets you listen to Internet radio, play audio files, and display images via an Ethernet connection. The receiver also supports AirPlay, which allows you to stream music wirelessly from an iPhone, iPad, iPod touch, or iTunes. Or, connect an iPhone/iPod/iPad directly to the receiver with a USB cable.

With the Denon Remote App installed on your iPad, iPhone, or iPod touch, you can perform basic operations, like turning the AVR-3312CI's power on or off, adjusting the volume, and switching sources.

The AVR-3312CI is DLNA v1.5 Certified and compatible with Windows 7 for audio and photo streaming, as well as giving you convenient web control. This receiver provides online support for Pandora, Flickr, Napster, and Rhapsody, allowing you to enjoy a wide variety of online digital content at any time.


It's STILL made in China <groan>, but you can buy it today.

Best,

I think that Outlaw would do very well to be using a "generic reference design" that lists for roughly 5x the target price of the expected price of their up coming offering.

(I also wonder what Vann's is thinking by offering a whopping .00653% discount off of MSRP -- http://www.amazon.com/Denon-AVP-A1HDCI-Reference-Streaming-Preamplifier/dp/B0013XDE4M , really motivates to buy now, NOT!)

The Denon pre-pro unit I mentioned above is listed at an MSRP of $1099. Is Outlaw planning on selling their unit for $220???

Best,

Yep every reciever that has any kind of line level out is really just a pre-pro in disguise, PLUS they throw in those magically rated amps. Wow you've really uncovered quite a conspiracy.


Bugatti is really just selling a "reference design" Miata with a very fancy faceplate, eh?

If its a receiver with pre-amp outs, then yes its a pre-pro in disguise. Just ask Outlaw as they marketed their own 1050 and Sherwood R965's that way and continue to do so for the Martanz SR5005.

FWIW, your Bugatti comparison is pretty lame. Outlaw, by definition, is not and never will be a Bugatti type product. In this instance, comparing a Miata to a BMW Z4 is still a stretch with its approximate 2x price factor.

While I have NO illusions that the "top of the mountain" catchet of a "super car" is not what the 978 is targeting, I do think the sort of compromises (especially in regards to noise floor) that go along with utilizing any receiver as a pre-pro is probably similar to attempting to take any roadster out on even a SCCA course with "all season tires" -- you can do so but when you compromise on that piece other performance advantages are probably going to be quite masked...

These sorts of arguments get pretty silly, but on some level I guess it gets back to what one believes about how best to portion out one's home audio budget. Even if I had the dough to drop on the high dollar Denon pre-pro my personal bias is that all products from that nameplate are more about how the marketing can be done rather than how they perform sonically. I doubt I am alone in that judgement. My experience with other firms is that a different design philosophy infuses their firm and product offerings -- if something does not enhance listening / fidelity it is not offered...

Of course sometimes the differences between a high dollar offering and something more affordable can be quite signficant and other times not at all apparent, that is why respected reviewers are such an important part of the A/V scene. Sadly the majority of such reviews do not focus on nearly as objective a set of criteria as automotive reviews, maybe this is inevitable as the difficulty in boiling down performance in the audio realm is a far harder thing that reporting on "lap times"...

Suppose, just for kicks, that Outlaw paid folks like those that have primarily done work for ATI or Manley a fair hourly rate to create the specs, schematics, wire wrap prototypes, PCB layouts and other necessary "work product" to have the kind of device that would have "super car" levels of sonic fidelity. Would it be reasonable to accept some minor trade offs in the "laundry list" of features that more mainstream firms promote? Is it reasonable that perhaps some beta testers uncovered some quirks of usability that likely would result in confusion / dissatisfaction? Would I be engaging in Pollyanna-ish fantasy to think that Peter's recent trip was primarily to address those quirks that otherwise detract from a product that might "run circles" around other higher priced pre-pros? Gosh I hope not...

LOL. Someone said Denon didn't sell a pre-pro (not sure if it was you and I'm too lazy to go look). I provided an example of a unit that is for sale NOW, and it's also offering networking features which you feel are "not important" all at a price point that's likely to be less than the Outlaw product. They do have one thing in common though....both manufactured in China.

Your usage of misdirection and hyperbole simply shows the threadbare underpinnings of your position...whatever that may be...it seems to shift to all manner of things as you wiggle around the issue(s).

Let's confine ourselves to things that are factual, shall we?

1. Outlaw's pre-pro product is several YEARS late. First it was the 997...then the 998...then the 978. *yawn*
2. In the interim, the market has continued to mature and the 978 lacks some features that are common on similar gear available now at much lower price points.
3. Outlaw lacks any direct control over the production of the hardware or the software running on it. It is outsourcing both to "partners" located in China.
4. Outlaw hasn't been particularly open about the reasons for the delay.

That's pretty much all we "know" for now. The rest is all conjecture. I will say that I don't recognize the current "attitude" of Outlaw compared to what the company was like when I invested $4-5k in their equipment 7 years ago. Times change, I guess.

Best,

One more thing, renov8r, is it your position that this receiver from Denon (made by the same folks that manufacture the Marantz receivers being sold by Outlaw for use as pre-pros with their amps) are somehow "inferior" products? It sure appears that way. If that's the case, why would Outlaw market them to their customers? Are those just Miatas in Bugatti clothing too?

Best,

There have been precious few facts in far too long, that is why I created the thread -- so idle speculation which has become rampant will at least be in one place.

When it comes to audio quality I do beleive that the compromises that the marketing driven firms make do render their products sonically less neutral compared to the kinds of decisions made by firms that can cater to folks less concerned with the latest bells and blinking lights.

I guess there is too wide a gulf between people like me that do belive different products do have distinctive sound qualities and those that belive that the only think that matters is what sort of faceplate is affixed to a box.

Not that it makes me happy to agree, nor does it mean that I've ruled out the 978 - I haven't, yet - but that pretty much nails it.

Yep, that pretty much sums it up. Very sad....................

Well, we are halfway through the first quarter and no word on the street yet. Conspiracy theories abound as to why we have not heard any news. Gonk has gone missing and PeterT and others are rumored to be learning to speak Mandarin. D&M holdings, ATI, Mcintosh and Sears are all rumored to be building the 978 in a hangar in area 51 south of the great wall. Can anyone at Outlaw provide some truth to the matter or should we continue to create our own alternate reality?

Well said.

I'm not holding my breath for a reply, however.

I'm not holding my breath either. For the record, seeing Outlaw falter brings no joy to me either. But sweeping things under the rug doesn't help anyone. I'm finding it hard to imagine how this thing is going to sell in sufficient quantities to make it financially feasible. That's the stark reality (at least from where I'm sitting) of the situation. Surely, Outlaw can find a way to offer value to its customers, but I just don't see it in the home theater processor arena. This one is a dollar short and a day late.

Best,

sigh...

Wow. Some heavy breathing out there and I totally have BEEN having the same lack-luster feeling about any future Outlaw products that seem to be created on Disney's drawing boards.I
I have recently been speaking to Scott about a small problem I had with the 990 and he kindly help me out and solved my problem. I mentioned the 978 on how or what news he had about the it and the response was shall I say less than enthusiastic, or at least that's what I thought. I wanted to know if the 978 was being refitted perhaps to include Bluetooth and the response was negative. I just cannot figure out how Outlaw expects to kept the attention of even the most loyal customers.
Mind you I am very please with the performance of my 990/7700 combo however it would be nice to be excited about an upgrade. As mentioned there are many new processors out there that offer a lot more than what the 978 seems to be offering and the prices are in the same ballpark as what I expect Outlaw's 978 to be.
I think the 978 might be outdated before it even gets out of the gate competing against other processors for accolades that people want to hear and are looking for that in the market.
My friend just purchased the Integra DHC 80.3/DTA 70.1 combo a very impressive sounding couple. I was considering to pull the trigger on both of these pieces but the price of $4600 kepts me on the fence. Then I was toying with the idea of buying the processor alone ($2600) and adding a new amp sometime in the future but for financial reasons I will take a back seat on any new additions to my home theater.
Another reason. Maybe its my age and hearing loss since my younger days but I really appreciate the sound I get from my 990. I am just as wowed now as when I first purchased the Outlaw.
Sure I want the bells and whistles but at what cost? Besides, as stated before I like what I hear BUT the future of electronics is oh so tempting to taste.


Thanks for listening.

If the 978 comes out with a "list price" of $2600 it will redefine what "epic fail" means.

Keeping in mind that the $2600 Onkyo/Integra unit(s) would give you about $1000 of "buying power" IF the 978 comes out at its previously targeted point -- that would allow you to get AT LEAST the Outlaw 7 x 125 Watt Power Amplifier along with the 978 as part of package, of course if you believe that receivers with that sort of power "rating" are going to be able to deliver even 5 ch of juice (let alone 7...) you have not read the same reviews I have nor heard the units in real world conditions...

Fact is, the crop of HDMI 1.4a processors is still pretty thin, ESPECIALLY at the target price of the current 7005...

The Denon unit I referenced above has been on store shelves since last summer @ $1099, has done well in reviews and offers HDMI 1.4a. The only thing the 978 has over it in terms of features is balanced outputs, while the Denon has quite a few features that have become common that are lacking on the (still unreleased) 978. That would leave $1500 to spend on an external amp with a little more gusto than 7125...perhaps the 7500. Wonder why Outlaw wouldn't sell this unit instead of the Marantz 7005 since both come from the same OEM partner? That leaves a lot more money on the table to buy a quality amp...albeit at the expense of getting a receiver made in China (sigh).

Best,

Not fact but conjecture:

1. Gonk has gone AWOL. Reason: he is in full beta test mode putting the 978 through its paces.
2. Outlaw has once again paid the price for relying on offshore support. Reason: Cost avoidance.
3. Bringing a processor to market is a complex development process. Reason: Look at Lexicon, they have yet to bring their processor to market due to a myriad of problems.
4. Reminds me of waiting on the 950, 10 years ago. Reason: deleted

I am pulling for Outlaw. And hoping that someday they will build more products domestically so Ritz2 and I will be the first in line.

I project that by June all the bugs will be worked out on the 978 ant it will be shipping. Not sure how late that makes it to market, (or how late the 950 was versus the original projected date) but bet that it is a great bang for the buck processor.