Request for more patience re: 997 release

As excited as I am to get my hands on a 997 I personally am in no rush for Outlaw to release it.

Memories here seem to be selective regarding the 990. It took Outlaw 3 years to straighten out the 990 bass management. 3 years! Remember that? So my plea to Outlaw is take whatever time you need to get it right. And that's not saying I expect a perfect machine out of the shoot.

I believe that most people looking toward the 997 are being relatively patient compared to some of the other product discussions that I have visited.

I'm still sticking to my guns in waiting for the 997 release. I haven't discovered anything else I would prefer at this point.

I'm do not mind waiting either. No rush as an upgrade is not required. I'm quite happy with the 990. I really excited for reviews on the Tinnov technology.

As much as I am willing to be patient (and have been since taking receipt of my 7125 amp damned neer a year ago), I am not so willing to give room for error. The whole point of this prolonged delay is to "get it right".
Any thing less is unacceptable. We have been fed the company line, "we will not release until we have it right", so, it had better be right.
...crickets, chirp, chirp, chirp

I proudly own the 990/7700 combo and I have to agree with Retep that an upgrade is not a necessity at this moment as I am quite happy with my setup from Outlaw.
Not to say that I would not upgrade in the future but I would rather wait for Outlaw to get it right the first time instead of doing upgrades for improved....well anything.
I want to plug, play, and enjoy.

It may be because I was around here for the Model 950 launch, but I think the 997's roll-out has so far been remarkably smooth for something that appears to have had at least a year of delay beyond what Outlaw had anticipated. I think part of it is because Outlaw has generally refrained from naming dates - that inevitably creates frustration among folks who are waiting. Having something like the 990 already out there probably helps, though. My wife still misses our 990. At times, so do I.

As the 997 development-through-delivery time continues to stretch further and further, (If I were ‘Outlaw’, I don’t know if I would trust all the same members of the 997 development team again, especially if some of them were the same ones that developed some of the original 990 ‘foibles’), other manufacturers have moved on and are preparing their next generation gear. Do you think that the 997’s feature set is being revamped to include developments that will generally be expected in receivers/processors by the time the 997 becomes available for purchase, or, despite a potentially excellent quality-for-value ratio, will the 997 seem slightly ‘behind the times’ the day it arrives?

I think that changing feature sets now is almost certainly not on the table. I could be wrong, but I think they are more focused on finishing it. Just considering what happens with design work in my industry and trying to relate it to what is happening with the 997, they appear to be somewhere between the final push to get construction documents, the tail end of the bid period, or perhaps the actual construction process itself. Late design is perhaps the worst possible time to start making changes to building systems, second only to after design is done. The same is going to be true for development of something like the 997: beta testing is probably the worst time to start trying to add significant new features.

what additional feature sets would anyone be looking for outside of trinnov, dolby and dts's lossless sound, and hdmi? i'll be starting in on a home theater project within the next year and i'm just curious.

I would think that 9.1 functionality and wi-fi connectivity for things like Netflix and a built in phono stage would probably be the 3 biggest features missing from the 997.

It may seem super minor, but Dolby Volume. Those damn commercials. That would make a definite impact on my TV watching experience. It's also the biggest complaint I get from the other half. When commercials go on, they are loud and it's annoying.

I wonder if it could be added to the 997 via software?

Dolby Volume. Does any "reasonably" priced pre-pro apart from the Emotiva have it (or I should say plan to have it)?

Who in their right mind is even looking forward to 9.2?

And commercials? That's what DVRs are for.

Seriously, other than more HDMI inputs/outputs, there's nothing that the upcoming Onkyo preamp has to offer over the 997 and the 997 has Trinnov plus much better support.

Buy an Onkyo and you'll be wishing that you had a 5 year warranty.

Wifi sounds interesting. I can't see going to a 9.1 or 9.2 system though. I think i'll stick at 7.2.

Has anyone out there heard a 9.1 or 9.2. Was it really more immersive than a properly calibrated 7.2 system?

"Has anyone out there heard a 9.1 or 9.2. Was it really more immersive than a properly calibrated 7.2 system?"

Apparently so.

There's a thread in the AVS Receiver forum called "dolby IIz vs Audussey DSX" or something like that, which also has a link to a recent article.

Of course it was. More importantly, the greater immersion/envelopment was stable.

With 3 speakers across the front, I routinely get phantom imaging outside the soundstage and ocassionally get phantom imaging above the soundstage. However, it's not stable. If I move out of the sweet spot, the phantom images move with me (or collapse to the nearest front speaker).

With 5 or 7 speakers up front (heights and/or wides), imaging outside and above the soundstage always appears to come from those locations no matter where I'm sitting. No magic involved, just speakers at those locations (making it hard for those sounds to come from anywhere else).

We don't all watch are sports games via DVR.

You seem to enjoy knocking everyone's wishes down unless it's something you want. I think the question was what additional feature sets would anyone be looking for outside of trinnov.

That stability argument makes sense. Hadn't thought about it that way. I'll still stick with outlaw vs the competition but it lessens the excitement of the purchase knowing the next big thing is already out. of course, with that being said, the audio/visual world seems to be changing faster than ever so what ever you buy is bound to be out dated with in a year.

No, I enjoy knocking features that make no sense in an already overly complex market that is seeing sales plummet like turds from an elephant's rump. More complexity is the last thing this market needs.

9.2 makes even less sense when you consider that movies are not recorded, mixed or mastered in such a format and nor are movie theaters equipped with this format either. If the goal is to get your home to replicate the director's and sound mixer's intentions as accurately as possible (it is HOME THEATER after all), 9.2 makes absolutely no sense.

It just needlessly complicates an already convoluted market and will further push away acceptance by the general populace.

My comment a few posts up was aimed at buyer impressions more than actual usefulness. If buyers of all consumer goods acted only out of a wealth of information in proper context following well-reasoned thought, what people buy, from housing and vehicles all the way down to toilet paper, would be markedly different.

I’m not one to chase the latest feature set. Only the sellers of ‘the latest’ gear promote that concept. Even the larger overall changes, such as consumer HD, IMHO weren’t/aren’t worth paying for until the content was/is readily available.

So in that sense, the 997 will incorporate many important advances and have a few positive things others don’t, likely making it a very reasoned value for those in the market for a pre/pro even if some may whine about the lack of whatever the latest hoopla is that comes along.

Right, right.. make volume go down during commercials is a needless feature that complicates things. Very complicated indeed.

You sound like a guy that I worked with at Nortel Networks years ago. He told me that cell phone and pda's would never converge and that it would be too complicated for the average person etc etc.

If manufacturer's didn't keep up with the latest technologies and keep pushing the envelope there would be less of a reason for people to upgrade. So your scenario could work against itself as well. When automation of setup systems and walk through setups are simplified, these technologies tend to benefit the end user. It's when manufacturer's don't simplify use for the end user, complaints occur, then your scenario is true.

Same thing goes for operating systems. Keep adding features without simplifying the usability and you end up discouraging the end user. Doesn't mean added features don't benefit the user. It just means the developer has to implement it in a way that doesn't get in the way, isn't confusing and seamless to use.

I believe the main purpose of the front height speakers in a 9.1 system is to make music sound more like a live perfprmance rather than make movies sound like your in a theater.
I would think that all of the folks that couldn't live a day longer without being able to decode the new blu-ray sound formats in their processors, even though only a few dozen discs offered them as an option, will soon be unable to live without 9.1 processing.

If you buy a preamp/receiver solely based on whether it has Dolby Dynamic Volume, you get what you deserve.

As for comparing a preamp to a cell-phone? A convergent cell phone with a good camera and all the whizbang features saves you money and really only works when it's designed well.

There's nothing about a 9.2 preamp that is going to save you money. First off, the Onkyo preamp is slated to cost $3k. Second off you will need 2 more speakers than what you already have, you'll need even more wire and you'll have to most likely wall mount them, which is definitely not normal for most home theater consumers. There's nothing about that process that makes life easier for a consumer, particularly in this economic climate.

You are certainly welcome to keep looking for the next big thing in home theater...for me, I'm just looking for a quality piece that integrates HDMI 1.3. The 997 fits that bill more than well enough.

Blogging - I think you are the one missing the point. I have noticed the exact same problem as Retep with my better half. In addition to live sports, there are limits on the number of programs that can be recorded in a given time slot, when you exceed that and are watching live programming you have to deal with commercials. I would imagine that in many households functionality such as Dolby Volume is very compelling.

There's already a feature that has been included in every receiver/preamp for years now. It's called the mute button.

You really don't get it do you?

Easy, fellas.

Dynamic range compression isn't simply for commercial relief. That's just the easy sell dolby and audyssey are pushing.

I just recently upgraded my bedroom Denon unit with audyssey dynamic volume, and it's a must for watching movies at night when the kid's asleep. Now I can hear the dialogue without the walls shaking from the kabooms.

Some manufacturers have implemented DSP modes like "night" and "midnight movie" in the past, but they aren't as effective as ADV in my experience. I believe it was absolutlely worth the $100 price of entry.

"Right, right.. make volume go down during commercials is a needless feature that complicates things. Very complicated indeed."

You are not married, right?

No, I really don't care about these features and see no value to having them and find it extremely weird that people would gravitate towards an Onkyo preamp over the 997 simply based on these features.

Like I said, if you buy a preamp based on those features, you get what you deserve.

So to recap, the notion that the 997 is obsolete before it is even released is just so much nonsense.

I don't recall saying I would base my purchasing decision on any one or multiple features. I'm going to wait for the 997 to be released and read some reviews and earlier adopter feedback. However, that doesn't mean I wouldn't mind that particular feature being added.

I understand your whole issue about being as simple as possible or stripped down to just incorporate necessary features versus unnecessary - wherever you draw the line. I just think there's room for both and we definitely don't see eye to eye, but I do get where you're coming from.

As for 9.2, it's definitely not necessary for me, as I have a good setup and built my own credenza that has everything at the proper height, but some other people may want it and really appreciate it and therefore I see no reason to deny them of that luxury.

Sometimes sound quality isn't the only issue. Basic usability, features and functionality do matter as does price. I know my wife will throw a fit if I buy another Outlaw product and it has the same type knob problems as our 1050 and RR2150 (see those forums).

It makes "absolutely no sense" only to those that want to limit themselves to the current state of theatrical playback. If that's your goal (and it's a completely valid one), then you might as well get a 6.1-channel pre-pro (limiting yourself to 3 surrounds: left, right, back) and run everything in THX mode using dipole surrounds to mimic the diffuse surround field you hear at the local cineplex.

For those wanting to go beyond what commercial theatres are capable of, there's 7.1 and (soon) 9.1 and 11.1 systems. With current 7.1 playback, the rear speakers are run in stereo, allowing for smoother pans in the surround field and stereophonic imaging between speakers. Even the best theatrical sound systems can't do that.

If going beyond the limits of commercial cinemas makes "absolutely no sense" to you, then you need not participate. Nothing more complicated than that. Heck, surround sound makes no sense to 2-channel purists (we only have 2 ears, sound only comes from in front of us, etc), so you'll be in good company. If others don't want to limit themselves the way you do, then that's their prerogative (whether it makes sense to you or not).

Gosh, all I was suggesting is that Outlaw not rush the 997!

Why are we even arguing here???
This delay is what it is.
I am waiting for both the 997 and the Emotiva to finally be released.
To bad these units can not be released before Christmas… somehow I don’t think that will happen.
I don’t want all the whistles and bells that you see on receivers. I want the best possible sound I can achieve for the money. Nothing more… nothing less… If you want a receiver, than what are you waiting for? There are plenty of great receivers out on the market to scoop up.

I think it's a horse race to see whether the 997 or the UMC-1 is released first. Neither company is doing a whole lot of talking about the source of the delays. I think the days of affordable niche players being able to roll out something as complex as a quality theater receiver/preamp are pretty much over. Unless you want to shell out for the likes of Lexicon, I suspect the only option for the next couple of years are going to come from the larger players (like Onkyo/Matsushita/Sony/etc).

In a couple of years you'll be able to do everything with a general computing device in something similar to a Mac Mini form factor and I suspect the final size of the device will be more driven by the number and type of input/output jacks it needs to support. Perhaps then there will be some opportunity in the software development side for the niche players. We live in interesting times.

Remember the old Chinese curse:

"May you live in interesting times."

Well, after going through the Sherwood 972 thread on AVS, the Trinnov seems to be a disappointment.
It almost seems to be hamstringing the potential the SN 972 is capable of.
Don't get me wrong. It is early. But if first indications hold true, the 997 will be a disappointment IMO.

I haven't checked the 972 thread in a while, but last time I checked it wasn't clear if Noah Katz had gotten it running yet. With the problems he was having, it sounded like it might be appropriate to wait a bit before passing judgment.

"With the problems he was having, it sounded like it might be appropriate to wait a bit before passing judgment."

Right

So a group of audio afficianados can't get it working correctly after quite some time fiddling with it. Yeah, that bodes well....

I went to the AVS thread referred to here, and the posts on the R-972 are disconcerting to say the least. I still have faith in the Outlaws to come through, and am still anxiously awaiting a release date for the 997. The Trinnov feature seems "interesting," but I have held off buying elsewhere primarily due to my prior experiences with Outlaw gear and service.

"So a group of audio afficianados can't get it working correctly after quite some time fiddling with it."

What group? And how could they get it working right w/malfunctioning f/w?

I'm Noah Katz BTW

I know how much of an "adventure" beta testing can be, Noah. When you agree to do it on the front end, it is a challenge that is offset by the knowledge that your hard work will improve the product. When you stumble into it with a product that you purchased, it is just plain frustrating with a sprinkling of irritation. It sounds as if you have done the latter with the 972.

There will be one additional challenge awaiting you once properly functioning firmware arrives (assuming you decide to give Sherwood and the 972 a chance to deliver it): separating the user experience of this initial setup from the behavior of the unit when it operates properly. My hope is that the problems you are currently running into can be straightened out, but there is a first impression that has already been made and can influence your feelings long-term. We all must now try to weigh the influence of that disappointing first impression when evaluating the unit with firmware that works. If you get a single firmware update that does the trick all at once, that may be easy to do. If it takes a couple of iterations, it will be harder.

I wasn't expecting this, but after all the delays and problems, I'm not surprised.

I was willing to be a guinea pig at the price I got.

I don't think Outlaw's hints at delays have anything to do with producing the physical units, but with the integrating the Trinnov s/w.

That's good news, at least.
It certainly sounds like a reasonable hypothesis at this point.

At this point, please don't release until next March. Any funds I had set aside for the 997 will evaporate between now and Christmas. It will take about three months to recover, so March 2010 is OK by me. Truly, I was ready to pull the trigger in March of '09, but summer projects came along, bought a few tools and things this fall, planned a fishing trip. Long story short, "Life" came along, cash gone.

Yes, I gathered you were the same Noah. I am referring to messages from yourself and another guy (deeeg-something) on AVS, though you seem to be having more problems than he is.

It's also interesting to note that the other guy is reporting that Trinnov isn't that big of a deal in terms of sound improvement. Is everything else working OK for you other than the seemingly broken Trinnov setup process?

Best,

Pretty much.

I am afraid that we are expecting too much out of Trinnov. Other than some CEDIA reports I have found nothing to lead me to believe it will have a significant impact on an already semi-corrected room. It is, after all, a room correction technology and if your listening area is not way out of whack, it may not do anything dramatic. Being able to remap your speakers to different areas may already possible with the 990s correction system. If I tell the system manually where a speaker is, does it not apply the delays expected for that position. It sounds like Trinnov is more complicated than some other similar devices but it does not sound like it will make your systems components sound better. If someone has first hand experience with the system, please correct my understanding.

Noah, how does the 972 sound? Is Trinnov ruining your experience or does the gear sound good?

I am reading reports that the Emotiva UMC-1 is almost ready to ship.
I currently have a Denon 3805 and want to replace it with a new pre-pro. The 997 and Emo UMC-1 have been my primary front runners to replace my Denon thus far.
Now, with the UMC-1 reportedly shipping in November... then add to the fact that first reports are that the Trinnov on the 997 is over hyped.
I am leaning towards the UMC-1.

The Emotiva site says they are shipping in November and the pre-order list is back up. Saw a post on their forum that the first units will be stateside by mid-November. I tend to agree with suffolk112000. With no info at all on the status of the 997 and Christmas coming up fast, my strong desire to wait for the 997 is being tested by the firm date for the Emo and the anecdotal reports on the "issues" with the Trinov implementaitons on other platforms. Any info from Outlaws on 997 status?

The only thing I can guess regarding the 997 is that the news from beta testing must be pretty bad. I can see no other reason for the Outlaw folks to not at least provide some sort of status information.
I was planning to get the 997, but I am having a hard time justifying why I should wait any longer with competitive products already released to the market and no information to help me understand if the 997 is coming out anytime soon.
For anyone from Outlaw who might be reading this, please remember that the people on these forums are mostly your loyal customers ... it's time for an update.

The reason that you are not hearing anything from us is that we have nothing new to report.

For the record, we have communicated our initial findings on the 997 hardware and firmware back to the factory. However, we cannot go any further until Sherwood Newcastle completes their own software for the 972 receiver and that final unit enters general release.

As you have might have read on other forums, there are reports on a handful of 972's out there. However, none of them contains completed software, especially involving Trinnov room correction.

We have been told that Newcastle is getting close to a final release. Until that occurs, we remain "on-hold" to continue our own testing. (Since the 997 is a processor it is different in some respects from the 972 and each of those differences must be vetted in a variety of set-ups.)

We understand everyone’s frustration. However, in this case, further progress on completing the 997 is in the hands of Inkel,(Newcastle’s factory.) You can be assured that when we have more to report on a reliable production date, we will communicate that to everyone in a timely manner.

Peter

Thanks for the update, Peter.

Even saying that there's nothing new to report is better than remaining silent. The way that Sherwood Newcastle has been handling this with their R-972 has been disastrous, from a PR perspective. Most people could understand delays due to firmware refinement, before finally putting them out for sale. But, for the receivers to still be far from complete is a puzzling decision. Especially when the one feature that sets this receiver apart from all the others doesn't seem to be working correctly yet.

Most of us are willing to wait for the 997, even if we are more than a little impatient. But, the wait will only be worth it if the product works as intended. The anticipation for improvements that the Trinnov feature add is really high, Sherwood isn't helping itself (and Outlaw, due to the connection between the two products), buy not being able to get it to work correctly.

Please keep us updated, even if it's just to say that you're still working on it or waiting for Inkel. Either is better than just letting us guess as to the progress, since some of the speculation could be damaging.

Scott

Let me echo that sentiment. Thanks so much for the status report. Much appreciated. It is good to feel that we are "in the loop." Will keep hoping for the best!

Mike

Thanks for the update, Peter. I dare say that you guys are as impatient as any of us are to have more substantial news to report.

Peter, let me add my thanks for the update. Even though you have nothing new to report, this "update" is very useful.
Cheers
Pete

I agree that "Nothing new to report" is much better than dead air.

It's interesting that 972 owners have their hands on product when (if I'm understanding PeterT correctly) the firmware isn't in a production state of finish/polish/functionality. That kind of faux pas can cripple a brand.

Ritz, you raise an interesting point. It is odd that production hardware was released into distribution channels without final firmware.

Yes, the people over at AVS are going to have a field day with those comments.

Thank you Peter for the update. It is actually nice to know that the poor results are due to an unfinished product. If that's the best there is to offer, it would be depressing to have waited this long.

All I want is a processor that handles the new HD audio formats & sounds at least as good as my 990. I really don't care about Trinnov. Has any thought been given to producing such an animal?

-Dave

If you are not interested in Trinnov how about processing the new audio formats in the BluRay player versus the pre/pro? If that works for you then the Oppo BDP-83 or its upgraded version feeding your 990 will meet your requirements. The Oppo has video processing on board that dramatically improves DVDs too. Now you won't have video processing on other inputs (e.g. TV, game consoles) or the convenience of single HDMI cables you'd get with the 997 but those things may or may not be a big deal for you.

Although I'm interested in the Trinnov I have to tell you I am extremely happy with my 990 and its analog inputs for movies and SACD from my Oppo-83.
The video goes straight to tht TV.

Outlaw really made a great product (990)

Although I'm interested in the Trinnov I have to tell you I am extremely happy with my 990 and its analog inputs for movies and SACD from my Oppo-83.
The video goes straight to tht TV.

Outlaw really made a great product (990)

I like that the 990 fits well with the BDP-83. But I hope the match with the PR-SC886 will be better for my main system. I don't expect big things from the Trinnov if your room is anywhere near normal. I am sure Audyssey will do a fine job of any correction I might need.

Well, my patience finally ran out, as did my willpower. Last year's Christmas gift was supposed to be a 997. This year's Christmas gift was supposed to be a 997. Looks like there was going to be another lump of coal this year, so today the wife OK'd pulling the trigger on an Integra DHC-80.1. Will have it in a week or two. It is a mix of joy and sadness. I do not blame the Outlaws as the delay is really beyond their control. The 997 will undoubtedly be a unit well worth the wait and delivering much more than it's cost will suggest. I will take another look once it is released to be sure. But the new Integra offering seems to have all I could want (my HT use is 95% for movies). Will hopefully make a fine match with my Outlaw amp.

It's a very reasonable idea. For all we know, something like that's in development - but at this point, I doubt we'll see much discussion of it until they have a product ready to ship.

Like mgdurand, my patience ran out as well. I get my DHC80.1 on Friday. Too bad, as I too held out for nearly two Christmas's.

Nice rig. I'd be curious to hear how that works out for you. Moving again soon so that's always a good time to sneak in an upgrade. To the casual non-audio observer, it looks enough like the 990. :p

thats the thing isnt it ritz2; some guys just say good luck; they have to do something to diss.

I've patiently waited and the 972 threads I've been following have been ominous on trinnov effectiveness. Outlaw has been very quiet, and the least they could have done is give the smallest update. Given that they chose silence; I bailed as I have a 15 amp system, and frankly I'm tired of waiting.

Good luck in your purchase; I'll be 9.2 on Saturday morning.

If it's time for someone to upgrade, I say "go for it" - there are some good options out there to be had, and the whole point of this hobby is to enjoy our movies and music. For what it's worth, though, Peter Tribeman came into a thread just a week or so ago and gave us a status report on the Model 997 because folks were asking. It's not like Outlaw is ignoring the delays or people's reaction to the delays. On the contrary, they are doing what Sherwood appears to have not done: refrain from releasing hardware prematurely even when the desire to ship a new product is huge. That's a courtesy to the people who need something now - they may end up buying something else, but at least they won't buy something with Outlaw's name on it that's not ready yet.

I Couldn't agree more with you Gonk. Besides it appears that they have to wait on Sherwood anyway before Outlaw can ship. I prefer to have a fully functional unit and if it means waiting a bit longer then so be it.