Outlaw 997 vs. Onkyo 886

Hopefully this is an ok question to ask in here. What are the advantages to either? I realize they have different calibration techniques but not sure about anything else.

Thanks!

I see no problem with asking this. Since we don't yet have first-hand experience with the 997, though, it is a hard question to answer.

Both are using the Reon video processing chip, so they have that in common. The 886 is THX certified with the associated processing that goes with that (although personally I've quit using the THX modes on my 885 and gone back to simply using PLIIx). I expect the 886 to have somewhat "fancier" looking menus, based on what I've seen of the 885, but that comes at a price - the 885 is a complex beast, and the 886 will only be more so. They crammed lots of handy bells and whistles in there, but I question how much care they put into making it easy to use.

The big difference that everyone wants to know about is room correction. The 886 has Audyssey MultEQ. Audyssey is probably the best room correction available aside from possibly some of the proprietary stuff from Lexicon or Anthem (both of which require owning processors that cost $6000 or more), but Trinnov has the potential to dethrone Audyssey. What I found interesting while testing the BDP-83 with an Onkyo 885 was that we often used the analog outputs (with no Audyssey applied) and found the results equal to or even superior to the digital output (with Audyssey applied). My room is relatively well-behaved, so it's not a good test of Audyssey's full potential, but in my space Audyssey was not a significant factor. Will Trinnov's remapping offer something really significant that Audyssey couldn't? We don't know yet - but I'm really looking forward to the opportunity to find out.

So far with my 886 I have preferred to leave the Audyssey MultEQ XT disengaged. The down side is that this means that I cannot engage Dynamic EQ - which I really like. (Dynamic Volume I've found no need for.) Since I was not happy with the level settings that Audyssey chose after calibration, I do not trust its judgement regarding EQ. Now if the designers had allowed me to display a before and after curve AND make tweaks to the after, that might be a whole different ballgame. But right now you i) can't display before or after curves of any kind, ii) can't even see the EQ setting changes that it has made, and iii) if you want to manually EQ you must start from scratch (ie. no tweaking!). That's my single biggest disappointment - and if Outlaw is listening I hope that their implementation of Trinnov does not have these limitations and does have these missing features.

In any case the differences between Audyssey MultEQ on and off are fairly small (to the ear) in my room. Vocals are more forward with it on, there's a brighter high end, but no noticeable difference in the bass. (But as I have posted before, I'm starting with perfectly flat bass from 15-100Hz anyhow, so I would not expect to hear any difference there.)

Dynamic EQ works incredibly well. Shame I can't use it alone.

All of the other functions and features on the 886 are perfect. Flat frequency response, no distortion. No noise. (All as I would have expected - again as I have posted previously). There are so many features, and so much flexibility, that this has raised my one other problem with the 886: the owner's manual skimps out far too much on necessary detail. No problems with Chenglish. The problem is that there are simply no explanations for many things. For example there are sub outputs in any addition to the stereo RCA outputs for Zones 2 and 3. But nowhere does it say anything about that sub output. Does it have a crossover, filters, level control, etc? You'd never know from the manual. All it says is "Zone 2 sub output." Hope you're still taking notes Outlaws!

My bottom line is that I aim extremely happy with the 886 - even with what I have mentioned above. It cost me no more than what I would likely have paid for a delivered 997. It easily accommodates my numerous component connections. And best of all: it's NOT made in China! Hope you noted that one too Outlaws!

Right now a refurbished Onkyo (pro) 886 can be had for $999. Plus, get 10% off directly from Onkyo until August 15th.

This is very, very tempting. I wish we were receiving more updates on the 997. Amazon is selling Sherwoods 972.

Will we be told when the 60 day countdown (delay between the two releases) starts, or will we only find out that the 997 is "now available"?

"Amazon is selling Sherwoods 972."

Tthat doesn't mean they're available.

Last word from Jeff was that they would be late this month.

I stand corrected. I thought I read some posts on avsforum that they were actually in peoples hands....

They are in a very select few people's hands, just no major quantity release as yet.

Amazon has no listing for the 972. Only the older equipment is listed.

I am in the same place. The 886 is pretty tempting at the sales price. I love my 990 and have been trying to patiently wait for the 997. But I am getting tired of waiting and would like to get a pre-pro that handles hdmi and the new audio formats. I don't mind waiting a couple more months but since there has been little news from outlaw I am not sure if the 997 will be out in a couple months. I totally understand the need to release a quality product but at some point you need to release a product. The promise of a product does not produce much enjoyment for me. I guess I will wait to Friday then decide if I will pull the trigger on the 886.

I just hope that Outlaw takes whatever time it needs between the commercial availability of the 972 and the release of its own 997 to get it right. By all accounts this is a very complex piece of gear and I'd hate for them to not take the time to learn from (and fix) the numerous problems that the 972 is likely to have.

It's better this way for Outlaw - and for consumers.

Patience people, patience!

I am torn as well the Dynamic EQ and Volume features are very interesting to me but I could pass them up if Trinnov turns out to live up to the hype.

I am VERY curious about the implementation of the Reon, the ISF calibration is a big plus to me.

It was yesterday.....

I have also been very patiently waiting the 997, but it has been a very, very long wait, and no recent updates. The fact that beta units are out is encouraging, but seeing that the 972 is not out yet (and they were supposed to released mid july), Outlaw is not even close to the 60 day wait for release. It is August, the 997 will not be out until winter at least. The rumor started last year that it would be out last winter. Very, very dissapointing

And sorry, the banner at the top of the page said 10% off thru Aug 15th, but when I signed up for their "club" or whatever, it only dropped the price from $999 to $949.

Lots of questions here and at AVS regarding release dates and when Outlaw is able to sell the 997 and very little responses. I get the idea that with all of the delays that have happened and with the villagers half-read to grab for torches and pitchforks at the announcement of any more delays, Outlaw would rather not commit to any sort of availability date.

I do remember a poster at AVS with the user name of StereoJeff made some comment about the 997 would be available my Memorial Day, though I'd be really surprised if the 997 was available, it gives me the impression that Outlaw will be able to sell the 997 by then and the 60 day wait window will be over by about this time next month. Also seems to coincide with the fact that there are people on AVS who say they have 972's in their possession from a little more than a month ago.

My humorous side has the idea that at this point Outlaw just might wait to announce preorders when they have 997's in their offices ready to sell. Or in a nearby warehouse. However it works. When they have them on hand, anyway.

I can't say I'd really blame them, to be honest.

StereoJeff works for Sherwood, but I will leave my credit card in my wallet until Peter or Scott says Memorial Day. They are likely to do something very similar to the 990 release, which was announced when the first shipment (loaded with final production firmware) was on a freighter from Korea and less than four weeks away from shipping to customers.

I don't think that there have been ANY delays attributable to Outlaw - so far.

And if it turns out that they need more than 60 days after the 972 is released in order to get the 997 right, then so be it.

Come on guys. Do you really want them, or anyone for that matter, to sell you a hardware carcass with "working firmware to follow"?

You'll be buying this next unit to last four or five years. What's a few more months?

The ONLY reason that I jumped at the 886 was that the 997 was made in China. That's my own personal moral choice. I could have easily lived many more months with my Model 950 if I knew that I was going to eventually buy a 997. But since I knew it wasn't going to be a 997, I jumped to the 886.

I was one of the ones calling for Outlaw to tell us their plans for the new pre/pro. They told us. They've been clear. We can see what's happening over at Sherwood. And I'm concerned that Sherwood might be feeling so much pressure that they'll release something that's not quite ready for prime time. That will only make it harder on Outlaw. Then again Outlaw might benefit (in a somewhat perverse way) from seeing the tons of negative feedback that a poorly launched 972 will bring.

Thanks for the input, Gonk and Jeff!

It seems to me that Outlaw has a wiser way of handling release info and has more self-restraint in what to inform their customers on upcoming products. Other than their newsletter of declaring hopes that the 997 would be out 1st quarter of '09, that's been about it. (unless I've missed something.) Maybe I got caught up in the excitement of the progress of the 972; I'll admit blame, but this 997 sounds so promising, it's kinda hard to not get excited. I also miss the better sound that came from my old Pioneer Elite receiver. This Pioneer 1017 I'm currently with, I'd not call a slouch, but I do miss the better sound the 27TX had. Plus the newer sound formats with Blu-ray and this Trinnov sounds very promising... Control, Control must learn control!

I too would much rather have a product that's been worked through than buggy. I have been confused with people already owning the 972 but word that Sherwood is working out the bugs. Has Sherwood sold buggy units? Or are these in fact Beta testers and they can't acknowledge that? Are these beta testers little green men from a distant galaxy? Is my tinfoil hat on too tight? I had a Pioneer CD-R/RW deck that had just been released and it had really annoying issues, so I'm very much glad that Outlaw wants to sell a solid product.

Just like a lot of other people, some sort of release date would be nice, but in the meantime I just gotta remember to be patient. Oh, and breathe... that's it, breathe.

Oh, and I also wanted to clarify my earlier post. I didn't state it very well, and might have given the impression that I thought Outlaw had a reason to be concerned with anything they might have done to imply fault in upset customers due to the delay. I think Sherwood might have made some missteps in doing this, though, and that Outlaw is simply not giving out info to give their customers similar grievances, which both of you stated good evidence and reasons. Thanks again!

For what its worth, I've only seen two posters on AVS that have actual R-972s in their systems. One appears to be some sort of insider, the other does truly appear to be an average Joe. Both of them have stated that they have experienced no bugs. It is possible that these early units have each been individually tested and only those that are bug free have been released. They may not be releasing the individual units that have bugs while tweaking the production process to fix what issues have developed from the production versions. My guess is that we'll never know. But it does sound like the 972 has not had any issues so far (other than the obvious delays).

Fair enough.

I feel like a traitor but after 5 years with the 950 and finding the Onkyo 806 for less than $700, I pulled the plug on my 950 and went fully HDMI. I love Outlaw but the wait was too long. To make myself feel better I hooked up my Outlaw amp to the 806 and now use it as a preamp. I love all the features on the Onkyo.

I have one concern that I haven't seen addressed: what is the financial hit that Outlaw is taking because of the 997 delayed release? With the "defections" I've read about (probably just the tip of the iceberg) I'm guessing there is some serious handwringing going on.

I think I've noticed a big increase in promotions and discounts this year, a bit unusual for a direct sales company who claims a smaller markup than companies using a multilevel marketing channel. I also found their partnering with other companies surprising, possibly also a last ditch effort to improve sales without making much of an investment.

In today's financial market, I suspect that two factors have come together to make life difficult for Outlaw: lower sales due to credit card issues for customers, and borrowing restraints for the company itself to make up for a possible lack of cash flow.

I have wondered about these things because I have a warranty issue with my 990 and haven't had the time to pull it and send it back. I don't doubt for a minute that OL is doing everything in its power to bring the 997 to reality. I hope their efforts are enough.

We don't know what impact the 997 delays have created. The whole industry has been having a tough year or two, of course, so the timing can't be great. On the other hand, surround processors are not the only product Outlaw offers. As for the partnerships, I'd offer a couple observations. One, Atlantic Technology is indirectly tied to Outlaw. I don't think any ownership overlaps, but management does: Peter Tribeman is president of both companies. The Vudu deal is unusual, certainly, but not unprecedented. When they were looking into subwoofer equalization they elected to sell Velodyne's SMS-1 because it wasn't worth trying to re-package a perfectly good niche product. Vudu is the same way: too expensive by far for them to develop something similar in-house, and not worth the hassle to try to develop a variant of the Vudu player.

I'm not sure how indicative it is of overall sales, but the number of postings in these forums is a trickle compared to what it was a couple of years ago. The delay of what I'd consider to be one of their flagship products can't be helping.

Forum traffic has always fluctuated some. I'm sure a new surround processor would create a big upswing on chatter. Some of the biggest sources of activity have been setup questions for new surround processors, as they involve the most complexity and thus the most questions. Amps, speakers, and subs are easier to set up and less likely to cause folks to come into the forum to ask questions, and mature products like the 990 probably generate less activity because there's such a large information resource in the form of old posts. So those could be selling extremely well and we wouldn't see much forum traffic as a result.

I think a lot of potential buyers of the 997 are just tired of hearing about a machine which might not be out for Xmas. Has the 60 day clock even started yet? I agree that the economy has probably put a damper on peoples desire to follow a machine they may not be able to afford no matter how it is priced. Some will move on to the other platforms but some of us who do not need the machine right now are waiting, patiently. If the 997 did not have Trinnov and HDMI processing, I would have moved on. As it is, I have a spare 7500 sitting here in its box waiting for the 997 to show up. It would be nice to get some update as to whether the clock is running or if the 997 beta testing is progressing as expected. Onkyo is doing their best to ensure that they capture as much market share as possible.

We are soon approaching one year from the announcement of the 997. Outlaw has only given two official updates and maybe a few informal posts since that time. Hard to believe they're going to start a more active dialogue about what's going on with the 997 at this point. We can't even get a picture of the darn thing! I too have been waiting for Outlaw primarily for the Trinnov processor. I just wish I knew how much longer I must wait...

the economy is a given and even getting new products 'right' is another...

I'm with tkntz ... by this time i would think the front layout is 90% complete.

A picture/image is not much to ask for....

Later,
Mark

The front panel would be 100% complete at this stage, I'd expect.

I also don't think it's helping any with Stereojeff over on the AVS forum making repeated statements of when the 972 (as well as the 997) is to be released with nothing happening. I think at this point to several forum members over there his words are probably considered dubious at best and probably hanging by a thread.

I'm just waiting for the heyday if it reaches Sept. 1 and the 972 still isn't available. I do have to admit I'm probably going to miss the drama on that thread. Rather like a train wreck. Gastly to look at but hard to tear your eyes away!

Wow. Outlaw is selling the 886 now? How weird is that? Even weirder, I started contacting sellers today to get prices on an 886 since I was tired of waiting for the 997.

Vurrrryyyy Eeeeennnteresting

Well waddya know!

I just received an "997 Update" e-mail from Outlaw. Apparently they have decided to offer Onkyo 886's through Outlaw for $1649. The rollout of 997 may be a bit longer than 90 days after the S/N 872.

Hello All,
Its been a very long time since I've entered this forum. Gonk, nice to see that you are still here. I'm back because I'm looking forward to the release of the 997. I've been running an Aragon Soundstage for quite awhile, but its tech is getting a bit aged. I'm still an Audio engineer, and for those that haven't invested in Outlaw, I can give you a very hearty endorsement. Outlaw quality is top-notch. I still run a few different Outlaw pieces in my main rig. Good Wishes!
J.

LOL! You must have ESP, or insider information, with the release of the Onkyo information and all.

I am much in the same boat, buying a 7125 last year during the Thanksgiving sale. It is patiently waiting for my 950 to be replaced, and moved upstairs, by the 997 which will then run the 770 downstairs.

With all the delays, I would have bought the Integra 9.9 by now, if but for 2 reasons:
1. Too expensive ($2000), compared to the Outlaw. Although I did get prematurely excited when Sound & Vision ran a test report and said the MSRP was $999, LOL! It was obviously wrong and they ran a correction in the next issue. Their website had the correct price though.
2. Apparently nobody in WI carries it.

Thus I still await the 997, praying it does not have the problems the 970 had, and my 7125 is being used by an old HK AVR-20mkII for the center and surrounds for now, (sigh).

Funny... after the most recent comments about progress on the 997 I had a feeling we might get a response. Outlaw Audio definitely responded. Thanks Outlaw!

With this announcement I have to wonder if the 997 is further behind than we can guess. No one is sure when the 972 will be "released" and at least 2 months later the 997 may appear. The reasons I am waiting are also related to warranty and service. What happens to those aspects if Onkyo buys Outlaw outright? In this market it is not too farfetched.

This is amazing. To start selling and recommending your competitor's pre/pro? My goodness. I couldn't believe it last night when I got that email. This signals that there definitely are issues with the R-972/997 and that those issues will not be resolved quickly.

I have two questions for all you Outlaws out there:

• Is Outlaw saying that the R-972 has not been officialy launched by saying, "When you hear news of the Sherwood R-972's introduction, consider it a sign that the Model 997 is moving forward, but not the start of a precise "60 day countdown clock"?"
• Are they saying that the differences between the two units are now much bigger than they anticipated by essentailly saying it will take longer than 60 days to release the 997?

I am sad today. But with that said, thank you Outlaw for the open and honest update. Thank you for making sure this pre/pro is right. I will wait.

I doubt that we'd see that. Never say "never" of course, but I don't see the business case that would justify this for Onkyo.

I believe that is true. It matches what I've seen elsewhere - the R-972 has not launched yet, and the handful that are out "in the wild" are mainly with dealers or past customers who are providing some testing services.
That's harder to say. Maybe they plan to make some changes to the interface, which will require resources that may still be focused more on the 972. Maybe they are going to add or modify some functionality. It may also simply be that they are saying what I and some others have long suggested: just because the factory only needs 60 days, doesn't mean that Outlaw is going to sign off on the firmware at the same point in development that Sherwood does, so they may need more than 60 days to wrap up pre-production bug-fixing.
I'm a bit torn, myself.

On the one hand, I think it's a smart move by Outlaw, and it's an option that (aside from the Audyssey/Trinnov consideration) isn't going to be any particular compromise. The 886 is a mighty fine piece (nobody around here has ever suggested otherwise) and it gives Outlaw something to offer customers right now. That's good for the company, and doing this doesn't restrict what they do with the 997 at all. As an 885 owner, I particularly like the "Outlaw Guide" - I've gotten spoiled by Outlaw and OPPO Digital manuals. (What's really funny is my knack for buying too soon. I got the SMS-1 before Outlaw posted their guide for it, and I got the 885 before this 886 guide arrived.)

On the other hand, my wife has never liked our 885. Sonically it performs as well as the 990 did, but it's slower to acquire audio streams, the video processing creates some delays in the picture appearing, and the smorgasbord of features leads to a wickedly complicated interface. She preferred the 990, and so she's fully in support of giving the 997 a try (which gives me both an excuse to upgrade and a chance to try Trinnov). This deal does suggest that we've got more than a couple more months to wait. As you point out, though, I'd much rather they get it right than they get it to me right now.

There's an awful lot of whining and speculation going on here. It should be pretty simple. If you need/want a processor now, and don't want to wait, then buy one! If you want the 997, with all of the features that it promises at a price point that can't be touched by the competition, then wait. Personally, I've studied the Trinnov gear, and I very much want it in my next processor. Outlaw has served me well over the years. Be patient and let them get the thing right. Just my two cents.
J.

-Aragon Soundstage - Processor, w/ Video Switching, and Factory Upgraded Chipset
-HKPA200 (4 Channel)x2 - Amplifiers, Front and Surrounds
-Outlaw Model 200 - Amplifier Center
-Wharfedale Pacific PI-40 - Front, bi-amped
-Wharfedale Pacific PI-20 - Surround, bi-amped
-Wharfedale Pacific - Center
-Outlaw LFM-2 - Subwoofer
-Music Hall MMF-5 - Turntable w/MMF Phonopac preamp
-Dish VIP622DVR - w/ Optical Audio Interconnect
-Sony DVPNS700P - DVD/CD, w/ Optical Interconnect
-Yamaha TX-950 - Tuner w/ Terk Amplified Antennae
-Monster HTS500 - Power
All Outlaw Interconnects

Any advice on a BluRay player?

My recommendation right now is the OPPO Digital BDP-83 , especially since you have a processor right now that doesn't include HDMI.

Thanks Gonk,
I'll begin the research.
J.

Regarding the 60 day delay... I don't think it has anything to do with production or debugging. From something I read (long ago) I recall this is mandatory and part of the "price" Outlaw had to pay in order to get a partner (with deeper pockets) to share development costs. While OL may well use it to technical advantage and extend it if they need to buy even additional time, it's a business based decision.

The 60 day delay is contractual, but Outlaw may choose to wait longer if there are things they want corrected.

Honestly I'm starting to think that the whole project is dead. This processor is so late to market that its obsolete, perhaps Outlaw finally realized it and has opted to partner with Onkyo for the next iteration of the 997. I really want to wait a little longer but anymore and I might just get the new PR-SC887. Even if the 997 isn't dead I just don't think its worth owning anymore. This latest annoucement has really tainted the whole thing for me.

I'm wondering the same. I would hope and expect that the Outlaws are actively trying to figure out what needs to be in the 999, and also trying to figure out a better partnering strategy.

The 886 is a good move to keep them in the prepro business, but it's got to be a stopgap to the next generation, not the 997 (RIP).

I don't think it's dead. Sherwood is going ahead with their receiver, and (as I noted in another thread yesterday) this 886 deal had to be at least a few months in the making. The 886 can't be a long-term solution because Onkyo won't be keeping it in production that long. I'd guess that the 886 will be discontinued by the time we see 2010 on our calendars, based on the way Onkyo handles product cycles. The 997 is late, and they wanted to offer something comparable to the 990 that included HDMI for folks who didn't want to wait any longer. The 886 was a sensible choice for that. I'm not sure how much it changes the launch plans for the 997. They're still going to release it as soon as it is ready and they can get production space at the factory, and that schedule still depends to varying degrees on what other people are doing.

What I do wonder is if Outlaw is evaluating options for manufacturing partners on the 999 as an alternative to Sherwood/Inkel. Those sorts of changes take years to produce actual product, and whatever decisions get made this year regarding a successor to the 997 will take a long while to reach our ears.

I find the whole thing very odd. Why would you sell your competitors product. It seems risky to intentionally dilute you customer base with another brand of processor. I guess it's possible that this might help with amp sales. Seems like a big gamble just to have something to sell.

I really don't find this offering odd at all. Anyone who's been following this forum must be aware that many in Outlaw's customer base have been at least impatient for a pre/pro with more advanced features than the 990. As the 997 has not been forthcomming, Outlaw is offering a product which they are endowing with their considerable prestiege to address that demand as they did with SMS. Though they are offering it at a price point that is not particularly encouraging a lot of sales.
I think this is merely an expression of sensitivity to a vocal part of the user base.
They can't be particularly pleased with Sherwood at this point, but I would think an alliance between Outlaw and Onkyo would be very unlikely as it doesn't suit the market model of either company.

999? Why not a 998?

Model 998, Model 999, Model 9500, Model 997.925 - whatever...

Koyaan I see your point but I still find the strategy odd. I do follow this forum daily and anyone can easily sense the frustration and impatience with not having a more advanced prepro but selling your competitors product doesn't solve the problem. Most Outlaw customers who want the 997 want it because it's an Outlaw product which includes all benefits that go along with that. There is a difference between selling the Onkyo 886 and selling the SMS-1, they don't offer a competing product to the SMS so adding it to their product line seems like a better fit. I liken Outlaw selling the 886 to Emotiva selling the 990 just to appease some of their customers.

Reading Outlaw's own words describe why this doesn't fit their business model, especially the second paragragh:

About Outlaw Audio

Outlaw Audio is a completely different kind of consumer electronics company. Our high performance products are available to you exclusively on the Internet. The only place you can evaluate our products is in your own home, where it counts the most.

While there are other Internet retailers that sell consumer electronics products, most of them are merely reselling the same merchandise that is commonly available through traditional sales channels. By contrast, Outlaw designs and manufactures its own brand of high performance audio/video components. The advantage of this approach is obvious. By offering these products directly to you via the Internet, we can eliminate the additional markup required to support a traditional "bricks and mortar" retail store. As a result of this new approach, an Outlaw designed component offers you substantially more performance for a much lower price than any competing product.

Whatever it is, if it's got all that 9.2 crap in it, I don't want it. Home theater is expensive enough/complicated enough as it is with 7.1. Sure, it would be nice to have more HDMI inputs than 4 and 2 matrixed HDMI outputs, but we are at the point where the technology of adding more speakers/complexity to the systems is just ridiculous.

It's more than odd; to me, acting as an e-tailor for Onkyo gear looks like an act of desperation. Makes me wonder if Outlaw's having trouble meeting payroll. I'm sure the 997 was expected to be a big seller but it's been repeatedly pushed out. Most people are either holding onto their $$$ or have jumped ship. I'd hate to see them go out of business but it would not be too surprising in this environment. I think they're a decent bunch of people who bring exceptional value to the market.

Bring it Outlaws. Don't give up on us just because we don't understand your motives. Get the dang thing done and bring it out. I am in it for the long haul and I want a machine which is as good as my 990 and with the service and warranty to back it up.

- I'm with ya', XenonMan.

I have wondered the same thing.
First Vudu and now the Onyko but still no 997!
I really feel that the 997 will be more that worth the wait so if they need to peddle someone else's product in the mean time then so be it.
They need new products to sell and the 997 is still a long way out it seems so maybe they are trying to come up with something to generate some revenue in the mean time.

I suspect they make very little reselling Onkyo gear. What it does is keep them in the home theater processor business during the time frame between their stock of 970/990 processors running out and the nebulous date that the 997 becomes available for sale. Given their pricing of the Onkyo gear (65% pricier than another e-tailer), they probably won't be moving too many, but at least they'll have product on the shelves. I doubt Outlaw is circling the financial drain, but I can't imagine that anyone's dancing a jig either.

I respect Outlaw for not wanting to release a product full of bugs, but at what point are they going to lose the majority of their 997 customers. I guess most are waiting to upgrade. If you look at my equipment list, this is kind of crazy but it's all been sitting in its original packaging for about 2 years now, the last year of it has been waiting for the new Outlaw processor. I'm currently looking at lcd TVs. When that decision is final, it will be time for the processor, probably 12/09. If still no 997, then I will probably go with Integra. I don't know of many other companies currently that have a line of people waiting to throw money at them , I just wish the progress on the 997 would be shared as we patiently wait. And if I wanted an Onkyo, then I would have already bought one. Stop making user guides for other companies products and use that resource on your own equipment.

This was strictly a business decision on the part of both Outlaw and Onkyo. Most people who have abandoned Outlaw have jumped into an Onkyo and most of the diehards still waiting have been contemplating jumping over to Onkyo for a while but have been unwilling to pull the trigger because of our loyalty to the brand. With no end in sight (I predict the delay to go well into 2010) what better way to help those who have been holding out than to endorse the very product we swore not to buy. This, in Outlaw's mind, is a win win. We get a processor now without the guilt, and they get kick backs from Onkyo and maybe even sell a few amps in the process. Why Onkyo, because we gave the idea. They read these posts and know that if the plug were pulled on the 997 today most of us would buy the Onkyo. Like another poster said "people are ready to throw money at Outlaw" but they have no product. So in comes Onkyo with their aging processor and slowing sales to the rescue. The bottom line is Outlaw has the customer and Onkyo has the product…absolutely shameless.

Those are utterly different resources. One has nothing to do with the other.

If it were possible to distribute Xanax electronically, I would drop a huge bottle of it in this thread.

Bob has an excellent point. Technical writers are not the same people who are designing new products - at least, they shouldn't be. They likely need to ask those designers questions at times, but even that wouldn't detract from new product development in this case.

Employing dedicated technical writers is a luxury typically afforded only by larger companies. In smaller companies the engineers often double as tech writers. As an engineer working for a tiny (7500-person ) high-tech company I create both internal and customer documentation. The only thing we don't do is write end-user guides but that's what our customers do. However, I can't speak for Outlaw, only from my own experience working for tiny start-ups and also huge, multinational high-tech corporations.

I doubt that Outlaw has a full-time tech writer. The number of manuals that they've published in the last decade would make it clear that they don't have such a position. Their products are produced by a number of different engineers (including personnel employed by companies like Inkel, Eastech, and ATI), but their manuals have a certain consistency that suggests someone within the organization is involved in enforcing certain standards. That person may write the manuals, or in some cases they have have independent contractors do some of the tech writing.

Either way, I think it's safe to say that nobody was pulled off Sherwood/Inkel's work on the 997 to write a setup guide for Onkyo's 886.

I think the point is that Outlaw, as a company, has its focus somewhere else. Here we are waiting for the 997 and they roll out the 886 by Onkyo. I wish people would stop getting so technical about things. Who cares about how tech savvy you are. In the end we all have one thing in common...Outlaw...and being snubbed by them.

Not trying to start a war, but simply want to express my own personal opinion that I don't feel Outlaw has behaved poorly in what is a frustrating situation for all. I'll just have to continue to enjoy my 990 for a while longer.

I'm opening the Xanax...

Seriously, I'm sure the Outlaws would be elated to have the 997 shipping and not bringing in a "Plan B strategy" of offering the Onkyo in combination with Outlaws' superior documentation and customer support.

But the 997 isn't ready. And Peter T. and co. aren't "snubbing" us or teasing us, I'm sure. They're just laboring with the reality that a modern pre/pro is a complex (and international) hardware and software development project.

Heck, it takes us 2-4 years to develop a videogame these days for a fully-developed hardware platform (and often starting with a fully-developed software engine from a third-party). Developing a pre/pro has many more unknowns than that 2-4 year game project.

I also feel the frustration at not being able to add a new Outlaw pre/pro to my home theater, and I'm generally not inclined to be a corporate apologist; but some of the hostility and speculation in this thread is just ill-informed and out of place.

"Developing a pre/pro has many more unknowns than that 2-4 year game project."

I'd have guessed the opposite.

A pre/pro has a defined set of functions, whereas a game is trying to simulate the chaos of reality with it's multiplicity of possible outcomes.

It's just too bad SN is taking so long to deliver a final product. It creates difficulties for Outlaw and angst for those who are keenly awaiting the 997. In the meantime we have the forum equivalent of thumb twiddling.

Just frustrated...sold my 990 in anticipation of the 997 coming early this summer and have been without HT for 6 months. Maybe the pressure is getting to me...I'll take my dose of Xanax now and clam down...maybe its time to take up a new hobbie...

I've been getting in a lot of time on my Xbox 360.

What a drag. Thought I would stop by the saloon and read about the starting date for the new release. Nothing! This place is like a ghost town. I like Outlaw and always look forward to giving them my money because they offer such a bang for the buck, but the wait is killing me.
I thought when we sold our house last September and packed up the Home theater room, that I would have already upgraded with the new 997, what a disappointment. I will check back in a few months, and hope that things will be moving forward.
just some suggestions, the new NFL and collage football season is starting, Fall fishing is picking up and bowling season has already started in some areas. Find something to do, cause it might be a long while for sure.

Hmmm... if this thread needs Xanax, then I wonder what the R-972 thread on AVS would need? Maybe a full-strength tranquilizer? Probably from an elephant gun while were at it. At least no one here has been making personal attacks toward anyone at Outlaw like at least one did towards Stereojeff. Dang, that was getting ugly.

I fully understand and respect why some here have waited for the 997. But I do not understand why some here are not using their systems at all waiting for the 997. At the least go out and buy a low to mid level receiver till the 997 is available. I can not see having a whole HT system sitting there waiting for a prepro that could be delayed several more months. Just a thought .

Bill

Hello. Back again. I was just checking in with the progress, or "gossip" on the 997. I just read all of this page(2). Some of you all should maybe consider loosening up. I am itching to purchase the new prepro myself. Whether you have a 990, something else, or not. HDMI is the way to go, and has been for some time. Here is something for some of you to think about. I had made a post last December sometime inquiring about running wiring for my 990 in the house with a 12 foot wall. It wasn't easy, but it is done. With research, alot of thinking, and input from here, it got done. It took alot longer than I had figured....alot longer, but it is finished. With my line of work, every day is a challenge, and I like it. Sometimes we are handed something that should take a couple of hours to setup, and program, but takes up to 12 hours (one and a half working days) to complete a preprogramed configuration for a customer. It takes what it takes, but it has to be done. The end result is a product that is delivered as promised, or EXPECTED. Sometimes it takes longer than an anticipated amount of time, sometimes, not. Also, we always support the product in the field with updates, or solutions. Getting back to this post...I have Outlaw products for the same reason as my job. They offer superior products with quality, and value in mind, with excellent tech support. (This is my opinion)... If they are offering a product, such as Onkyo which is an alternative to keep customers, or keep them from running away.. so be it. You don't have to buy it, but they gave YOU an option before they released something in the long making. I am sure when the 997 is released, it will be worth the long wait. I can't wait, but I am going to. Have a nice day!

Wow this rhetoric is all too familiar... We went through this back in the days of the 950. Although there was a lot more date promises missed back then, if I remember right. I am going to put a different perspective than deadlines, being late or products killed.

I actually stumbled back onto this forum after digging through an old email account and finding a few OUTLAW emails. I personally don't have my theater gear anymore, sold off most of what I had. Now I am slowly getting back into the home theater thing. I've got a great 52" LCD TV and am trying to put finishing touches on my ever on going, pull my hair out HD-HTPC project. Now I am looking at the months ahead and where I want to be with my home theater.

Where am I going with this?? Here is my 2.5 cents.

Everything I do now has to have a value for my dollar and I am working on a tighter budget. Even more so now then way back in 2001/2002. I am a researchaholic. I am looking for quality, features at an amazing price. I am looking for that DEAL. The 997 may just be THAT deal.

So, lets be honest here. If your looking for bleeding edge top of line, feature packed pre pro, time to fork over 6k and be done with it and not worry if and when the 997 ever makes it to market. This forum doesn't need to be littered with "I can't wait any longer" posts. It's understandable that its frustrating, but you have to look at the times, economy and what outlaw is trying to do.

If you are looking for that deal. That great quality/price value you get with Outlaw. It may just be worth the wait. If you need HDMI switching and your looking for a deal right now, get the Onkyo deal that outlaw has. Onkyo makes some great stuff. I had a Integra 8.4 and was quite happy with it.

For me I'll wait a while longer, see what comes of this and see where they are headed. Worse comes to Worse I'll pick up an 886 or a Integra 9.9.

..:: Jeff ::..

This is an excellent point. If I had the cash, I'd have picked up an Anthem AVM50v instead of the 885, in which case I would only be interested in the 997 out of academic curiosity...

Yeah, if I had the cash, I'd get the latest and greatest Lexicon piece, but most of us here don't, which is why we are here.

What about the Integra 30.1 and 20.1 receivers?
How do all of you see these models stacking up against the 997?

The 30.1 and 20.1 look to be based on mid-level Onkyo receivers (the 30.1 from the TX-SR607, the 20.1 from perhaps the TX-SR507). Those Onkyo receivers sell for betwenn $600 and $400, possibly less if you find a discount. I would expect the analog sections to be a definite step down the food chain from the 997. The video section will be less robust, as well (the 30.1 has the old Faroudja chip, which was a good chip in its day but isn't as good as the Reon).

Thanks Gonk, if I were to get either, it would probobly be the 30.1.
I guess you can't expect either to compete with a something that is twice the price.
The 30.1 and the 20.1 do have one thing going for them... they are actually available to buy.

The upcoming Integra DHC-80.1 looks really really impressive. Probably has everything you could ask for including net radio.

Looking forward to the 997, but it'll be a generation or two behind some of the stuff announced at cedia, unless of course, Outlaw changes things up.

These new 9.2 receivers and preamps are beginning to make me understand why people stick with 2 channel and tube amps.

At this point, home theater has become way too complex. The vast majority of people looking for a preamp do not need and probably don't even want all the extra gewgaws on something like the 80.2.

I can see your point with regards to simplicity. I'm glad I kept my two channel system.

The great thing about something ilke the 80.2 is the ability to work with a wide range of setups. Net radio, HD radio, Satellite radio and networked media, awesome. I like the idea of a centralized system being able to work with nearly everything with a minimum of hassle.

Feature creep and the "swiss army knife" approach to feature sets really are a double-edged sword. On the one hand, marketing pressure and consumer demands create some very real, legitimate reasons for companies to build products with the sorts of never-ending feature lists that you see from something like the upcoming Onkyo receivers and processors. On the other hand, consumer education and consumer comfort with this sort of sophistication can be a real issue when it comes time to use these products.

Real world example time... I can name three co-workers who have relied on me to help work through setting up new AV technology at home. One bought a Rotel setup back in 2004 or so and the local dealer wouldn't even give him the time of day without charging for in-home setup at some nasty hourly rate. He'd come from very high-end two-channel gear, but the jump to surround sound and HD involved so many changes he didn't know what to do. There was no starting point for understanding how to do the setup. Another co-worker just started building his home theater last Christmas, and I helped him shop for some gear. His budget was tiny, so we went with some HSU Research speakers (a center and pair of bookshelves) and one of the cheapest Onkyo receivers on the market. The receiver will get upgraded later, probably to Outlaw separates, but setting up that little Onkyo intimidates him. (It has one coaxial and a couple optical inputs, minimal component and composite analog video switching, so basically it is a cheap 5.1 version of Outlaw's Model 1050 with just a couple newer features like PLII added. If we could have found a used 1050 for the same price as that Onkyo, we probably would have gotten that instead - it would have sounded better!) He'd be nervous about just operating something like the Onkyo 885 I have. The Model 990 would probably be a better fit (the menu structure is a lot shallower and manageable on the 990), but it would take some help from me initially. Then there's our office manager/secretary, who upgraded from old 19" and 21" TV's to DTV for the transition early this summer (she doesn't want cable or satellite). The process involved buying one new TV, a couple converter boxes for bedroom TV's, and one VCR/DVD-R player. I can't tell you how many questions that process generated: how to deal with the disappearance of the VCR for someone who records her soaps, different antenna needs, low power broadcasts prior to the transition, recording to DVD-R and how to delete a program from a DVD-RW when you're used to rewinding and going back over it, ... I could come up with other examples, and I've at times recommended that someone stay with a product like the 990 rather than upgrade to something like an Anthem specifically because of the complexity. This sort of stuff is why I tend to be critical about user interfaces and documentation.

The geek in me is drawn to the idea of something like an Anthem AVM50v (with tons of settings that can be endlessly tweaked and dialed in) or an Onkyo 885/886 (with more than its share of settings). The engineer in me looks at those interfaces and feels a strong urge to try to "fix" the interface, make it easier for people like my co-workers or friends to use. The husband in me likes the idea of something user-friendly so my wife won't gripe every time she tries to watch TV on her own. The 885 isn't particularly bad in this regard, but I think it could be improved. The Model 990 strikes a good balance, I think. It makes me curious to see what will happen with the Model 997.

Edit: I say all this not to condemn products like the Anthems or the Onkyos. They have their place in the market, and they exist for a good reason. The problem is that there doesn't seem to be a way today to get really good sound quality without taking on the extra baggage associated with these massive feature lists. There is probably some real value to be had in a product that offers Outlaw-style sound quality and effective integration into a modern home theater (HDMI for HDTV's and Blu-ray, for example) without all of the other bells and whistles.

That's why there's equipment at all levels. needs & wants

True. My point is that I don't know how much exists right now that offers the particular set of needs and wants that includes sound quality at a Model 970 or Model 990 level and features such as HDMI support without also having a lot of additional stuff. That particular niche may be a bit under-represented in the market right now...

I wasn't negating what you said, just stating a simple fact. It's the same in the cell phone market, some of us just want a phone that works as a phone without the bells and whistles.

But as you suggested when and where do you draw the line. Scope creep is problematic, but finding the balance to please a good portion of the audience is tough and it's impossible to please everyone. Personally I like options as long as it doesn't sacrifice sound/video.

I guess the question I have is, what would you strip away and what would you keep?

Keep the connectors, surround processing, video switching/scaling, and auto setup for sound etc and then forget the rest?

Actually looking at that link, the 40.1 has everything I would ever use. It looks like the 80.1 steps up to balanced outputs (which I would never use), and has a different processor. Not sure that validates a price of more than double the 40.1.

Phew! - I don't know where you draw the line, since each person will put the line in a different place. The audio processing and D/A conversion is important no matter what, and it would be at the heart of a high-performance basic unit. Video switching has a huge convenience factor, but I could see having something more akin to the old-style transcoding switching you have on the Model 990 (might need deinterlacing for 480i sources before converting from analog to HDMI because some TV's don't like to get 480i over HDMI, but anything past that would be open for debate). Basic auto setup is also a big convenience item, but it might be an opportunity to scale back - either just do something like the 990 (no room EQ) or remove it entirely.

Totally agree. I have a few more examples. I am very tech savvy, but just the initial change is always very intimidating.

When I first upgraded to the 950, that took some getting use to in terms of all the outputs, inputs, switching, multi-zone, surround modes, etc. Now it seems easy and actually LOW featured.

My first HDTV was confusing with all the tweaks for motion, NR, picture size, different settings for all the inputs, etc. I didn't even know .1 channels existed until I did a channel search! All of a sudden, I have 3 channel 4's as 4.1, 4.2, 4.3!

Switching from Tivo to DISH was hard. DISH had a COMPLETELY different interfcae for searches, timers, season passes. I called technical support because it would not let me add more than like 25 timers. They were no help. I had to go online in a Vip 722 forum to find out how to get around that. Turned out every skipped episode counts as a timer, so I had to specify the channel.

Last, and most recent, I did upgrade to the Onkyo 886, and I have not even gotten half way through the menus yet. It is upstairs temporarily to make sure it worked. I almost blasted my zone 2 speakers due to the huge difference in how the 950 vs Onkyo works, LOL! Audyssey is very nice BTW.

So I can definitely see how the lay person is very intimidated by some of these features. You talk about Audyssey, or processing, or multi-zone, and most people have no clue. HDMI is just getting to be commonplace. I think the 9.2 channel is getting a little ridiculous though. Just too much money, speakers, and space.

I actually think Onkyo and Denon have cornered this market. They have very up to date, mid-priced units in the $500-$800 range that are not overly packed with features, but have what you need (ie. HDMI switching, good power, good processing), and elminate some of the audiophile tweaks like balanced inputs/outputs, phono, satellite radio, zones, picture calibration, etc.

I just recommended some units to someone whose Yamaha died. Of course I recommended the 990/7075 or 7125 combo, but that may have been out of his price range. I think the biggest current drawback to the 990 is lack of HDMI support, despite still being able to utilize the optical/coax inputs.

I could see how removing everything would be attractive. I do not currently put any video through the 990. I just run strait into the TV.

Of course throwing out the tuner an everything else isn't such a bad idea. Just keep surround formats and make all speaker levels and distances manual settings. Call it the Plain Jane Processor. Then if you must, you could buy a box like a tuner to do your hd radio, net radio, network file stuff, ipod, zune etc. It certainly makes sense.