New Dolby Sound

In the new issue (April/May 2009) of "Sound and Vision" magazine, a new audio format is described in the "Tech Trends '09 section on page 48.

It is described as "PLllz" and adds 2 channels to the front, above (above the screen or video display) the main left and right channels.

"Peter Triberman, president of both speaker maker Atlantic Technology and electronics company Outlaw Audio, likes the idea of repurposing surround speakers for height channels. "In my opinion, the benefits of conventional 7.1 are marginal", he said. "Applying those channels to height speakers in the front has a profound effect. All of a sudden, it goes from the three front speakers to a total re-creation of the stage".

Triberman also said he liked it so much he has created an Atlantic Technology speaker specifically for height-channel use. However, Dolby says any standard surround speaker will work.

Test subjects at Dolby Labs claim this new speaker configuration was the best in the samplings they listened too. The author of the article claims that listening to the begining of Ratatouille blew him away.

So, we have a new 997 that someday will be available, and now it looks like another audio format has already been designed. Onkyo will be releasing a new receiver this spring (the first of six) that will have Dolbys new Pro Logic llz.

The president of Outlaw is aware of this and likes it. I am curious what his plans are for this new format and its implementation into Outlaw Audio products.

This is interesting, Yamaha and probably a few others have offered "ambience" channels for some time, and I believe the original SACD 5.1 configuration used the .1 channel for an extra pair of high front speakers placed above and just outside the mains insted of for LFE.
I've never heard a set-up like this , but I'd love to. ( It would provide a use for some old Polk satelite speakers that have been collecting dust).
When will outlaw ever get around to releasing the 999 ? If it doesnt beat the 997 to market I may have to buy a Krell something-or-other.

I owned a Yamaha DSP1 in 1986 that used front surround speakers mounted exactly in the same place. In fact, I still have a pair of speakers mounted in my home theater room there, although they have not been in use since I replaced that dsp 1 years ago.

It's a shame that S&V mispelled PeterT's name.

I have a few questions about this that I think need some thought before we start re-wiring our rooms. How do existing 7.1 tracks work out in a system like this? Do you need to downmix to 5.1 and then apply PLIIz processing to that 5.1 track? Or do you need a 9.1 receiver/processor that supports that 7.1 track in its entirety and uses PLIIz to expand to 9.1? If it's the former, I see a lot of existing 7.1 installations that will have little interest in adding it. If it's the latter, I don't see Outlaw being able to support it in the 997 at any point - firmware updates can't add additional output channels, even if the DSP section can handle the processing. That means we'll need to wait for a future generation. We'll also need more channels of amplification, which is sort of a pain (I've already got three power amps).

Here's an oddball tangential thought, though. The original Pro Logic processing could be achieved in the analog domain, and I think there were even some analog PLII circuits at one time. If the same is true of PLIIz, can you picture an outboard box that the left, center, and right channels go through that applies "PLIIz" processing to them and spits out left, center, right, left height, and right height channels? Heck, you could even build in a modest two-channel power amp to drive the height channels...

It sounds to me like two of the 7 channels are placed above the front speakers instead of being used as side channels. Which would only require the PLIIz and moving the speakers around.

There are a few differences:

Yamaha presence speakers are placed higher and wider than the L/R mains. PLIIz recommends the height speakers be placed directly above the L/R mains.

Yamaha uses ambience generation, adding reverb and early reflections that weren't in the original recording. PLIIz is ambience extraction, using only information from the recording itself.

Yamaha's presence speakers are typically used for their room simulation DSP modes (to give the impression of being in a larges space). Some of these modes even have the names of the actual venues that Yamaha measured in order to generate the appropriate reverb.

By comparison, PLIIz only attempts to give a sense of height (z-axis), using decorrelated and non-directional information extracted from the surround channels. Think of it as taking a ring of sound and making it more of a bubble of sound.

Depends on the manufacturer. If they release a full 9.1 receiver, then you'll be able to have height channels AND the standard 7.1 speaker layout. If they release a 7.1 receiver, then two of the surround speaker outputs will have to be used for the height channels, which means the 4 surround channels of 7.1 soundtracks will have to be downmixed to 2 surround channels. I don't know how many output traces the 997's DSP chips has. Can it play, for example, 7.1 in the main zone and 2.0 in the second zone simultaneously? If so, some clever code writing and signal re-routing may allow it to have 9.1 outputs. If not, maybe the 7.1 outputs can allow for two options: 5.1 plus surround-back or 5.1 plus height.

The good news is that PLIIz requires little to no increase in MIPs over PLIIx processing, allowing the new code to fit on current DSP chips. The bad news is that this isn't really Outlaw's decision, since the 997 (like any pre-pro) uses DSP solutions from OEM chip makers. So even if Outlaw is willing to upgrade to add PLIIz, the chip maker first has to come up with the code to do so. What if they decide that rather than flashing their current chipsets, they'd rather introduce PLIIz in their next-gen line of chips? While there was an all-analogue (and all-tube) PLII surround processor from Fosgate, PLIIx and PLIIz have only been implemented in the digital domain. So an outboard box would work, but would need to convert the analogue signal to digital in order to extract the height channels.

BTW, the height info is extracted from the surround channels (discrete or derived), not the front L/C/R channels. So you would input up to 4 surround channels (depending on soundtrack) and the box would output newer versions of those channels (with decorrelated information removed) plus the two height channels.

I'm going to have to do a little research over at Dolby's site - curious to know what the installation recommendations are for these speakers (height off floor, etc.).
Clever! Of course, all we have right now is the 990 (no first-hand experience with the 997 and no details / manual), and the 990's second zone is an independent analog pre-amp with no ties to the DSP or DAC. If the 997 follows the 990's lead in that regard, there would be no physical connection available to steer data from the DSP to that output. You're right, though - if there is any sort of connection there, the second zone could be made to offer a "PLIIz mode" that disabled the second zone and instead made it into the last two channels of a 9.1 pre-amp.
I wondered about this, too. After all, the 990 is one of a number of processors that do exactly that with the 7.1 analog input.
This may be "un-purist" of me and may be partly because I've needed to give my side surround speakers an upgrade for a few years now, but I am a little less picky about extra manipulation of my surround channel signals than I am of my fronts. An A/D/A cycle on those after the processor would be less of a concern for me, assuming it was done clealy. A four-in/six-out box could work if you gave it decent ADC and DAC chips. You might include a switch to select 5.1 or 7.1 operation (to tell it whether to expect anything on the rear surrounds), although there would still be the potential for a 7.1 setup to play back purely 5.1 tracks at times. And I'd think that if PLIIz is functionally similar to PLIIx, an older-generation DSP chip like the Cirrus 49400 could handle the processing requirements pretty comfortably (especially with extra duties removed in a scaled-back application such as this).

Right, but I'm sure you've seen gear that allows two channels to be assigned to either surround-back OR second zone duties. We don't which way the 997 will operate, since we don't have enough info on it (or its Sherwood counterpart receiver) to do anything more than take wild guesses at this time. And quite well too. A friend of mine used to re-digitize SACD/DVD-A through his 990, and the degradation was negligible to none when compared to pure analogue bypass. Modern A/D conversion is actually much more transparent than many folks think. The Audyssey outboard SEQ box is another good example. And, as you said, it becomes even less of a concern when limited only to the surround channels.

It's definitely a possibility, depending on how the hardware is built.
I found the 990's A/D/A of the 7.1 Direct input to be surprisingly transparent. When I swapped it out for an Onkyo 885 (which is a straight analog bypass), I found the two to be very closely matched.

Before we get too concerned if the unreleased processor is obsolete or not, we might first consider how many people are interested in adding 2 more speakers to the front. Based on how many people added 2 more speakers to the sides/back, I say not very many. So not having a capability that few people are interested in does not make a product obsolete.

So while some number of enthusiasts may fret, even hard-core home theater fans like me will yawn over this.

I would have to hear it first. I didn't add channels 6 and 7 due to wiring (built in wiring for 5.1 when the house was built). Additional front channels in my set up would be easy to add so I would consider it....just can't imagine what you would really gain.

Sounds like one more way for the Electronics Industry to get more revenue as technophiles upgrade. :p

Very true. The height channel may be easier to fit into a lot of rooms than the rear surrounds were (haven't got to go as far with wires and it should work reasonably well even if your listening position is up against the back wall), but it's still not going to work for every user (two extra speakers to buy, two extra amp channels, and a pretty high likelihood that you'll need to do a wall mount for it to be worth your while).

The only "danger" that may exist for Outlaw is that the 997 is too close to launch to get PLIIz added now unless it can be added after-the-fact somehow (as Sanjay was pointing out), but it will need to remain in production for a few years. Outlaw doesn't (and can't) do the 9-12 month production cycles that you get from Onkyo or Denon. By the time the 997's been out for a year or two, folks may expect to see PLIIz - even if they will never be able to use it in their homes. This is always an issue for a processor that needs to stay in the marketplace for several years, and it's not anything that Outlaw hasn't faced before. If the format did start to get popular, though, an outboard PLIIz processor could be an interesting option for a lot of people (not just Outlaw owners). As you say, though, it's still very early.

Since my current front and side speakers already go literally from floor to ceiling in my main HT, I have neither the space, nor the desire to add two more speakers "above" the front L/R ones! Perhaps a pair of Minimus 7's (or something of similar size) at the ceiling and just inside the L/R speakers -0 since I assume that this extra channel or two will not need to be anything like full range.

My 2 cents say that I’ve usually found movies sound best in direct, or pure audio mode on the onkyo I use as a processor and past recievers as well. The studio spent millions on sound processing/engineering to give the listener a particular experience, and I’ve found it seldom, in my opinion and experience, that any of the pro logic or thx formats etc can make many improvements, especially on a blu-ray. (changing 2 ch for an old movie is different) Dolby can handle 8 channels, but I have 50 blu-rays and 500 dvds and only 2 or 3 are actually even in 7.1. When if ever they begin using 7.1 more is anyone’s guess. I would love to see 9.1 on a blu-ray, and if they start making them that way I’ll buy speakers for the extra channels, but I don’t trust processing formats enough to believe they can make noticeable improvements changing 5.1 to 7.1, never mind height speakers. I want the engineer in Hollywood to decide what comes out of which of my speakers, not the computer in my pre/pro. Obviously, it’s just my opinion, and it may not be popular but I think receivers and pre/pros are great for making room corrections like distance delay, spl levels etc; but other than that feed it to me best you can as the artist or studio intended. Seems like Hollywood should get on the ball.

I agree with the comment that few people would even use this feature it was even possible to shoehorn it in at this late stage of the design game of the 997.

Kinda like....For every Pitts Special there are probably 20 or 30 Cessna 172's. A company like Outlaw needs to have a Cessna in order to do what they do and still earn a profit.

Best,

It doesn't matter how many people are currently interested in adding height speakers. If it becomes a check-list item, then everyone will have to carry it.

Even if a tiny minority are currently using surround-back speakers, it would be marketing suicide at this time for a manufacturer to come out with a pre-pro that was limited to 5.1 channels and didn't have PLIIx processing.

Besides, if pre-pros start coming out with PLIIz, then that may end up encouraging folks to add height speakers in the future. As gonk pointed out, Outlaw doesn't have the annual product cycles of the big Japanese manufacturers.

So Outlaw can't limit themselves to thinking about what their customers currently want, they have to consider what prospective customers may want in the future. If the competition is going to have PLIIz, then guess who else has to have it.

In that case, I'd like a fusion reactor as part of my next pre-amp so I can go off grid and have plenty of power for my Maggies. LOL

Outlaw, where's my tokamak?

The height channel stuff has been in development for some time so I hope they offer it.

The 997 has been in development for some time, as well, and until a format like this is finalized and specs are in hand it's difficult (and very risky) to try to develop hardware around it.

If the budget minded ($599) Onkyo TX-SR607 is already announced with PLIIz, then that means their chipmaker (Texas Instruments) already has the DSP solution in the works, which means Dolby has the specs finalized. Whoever is supplying the DSP chips for the 997 (I don't think it's Cirrus any more) should be announcing their solution some time this year. Anyone know the OEM chip supplier for the 997?

Yes, but how long has the spec been finalized?

The 997 uses TI chips as well, I believe, so it's very possible they could support it via firmware without terribly much hardship. It's the hardware side that's a question. The TX-SR607 is doing it by offering you a choice: rear surrounds or height channel (rear panel pic shows a label for the rear surround binding posts that says something along the lines of "rear surrounds or front high speakers"). It's not giving you the option of 9.1, probably because they didn't have time or desire to stop and add two more channels to the hardware. It's possible that Outlaw could do the same via a firmware update after the product launches.

That's my hope. Last spring I had and installer draw up some plans and rough estimates for my yet to be built basement theater and they had drawings for height speakers. At the time I wasn't sure I would ever want them but the more I've read about the technology (with respect to human sound perception) more I think the height channels would be better than the rear surrounds. I'll need to hear it first but it is very interesting. The Dolby Volume is more important (to my wife especially) but PLIIz stuff would be very nice.

Is it necessary to plan for either the front height speakers or the rear surrounds? Why not both (and run the speaker wire for both) so you can implement whichever approach makes the most sense in the future? It seems safe to assume the 997 will not easily permit the height front speakers, but in 3 years when the 999 comes out, wouldn't it be nice to be able to easily add the new amps for your 9.1 system?

I could/would wire for both but I am planning for Triad inwalls so I might want to make a decision before installation. This is all planning at this point because if the economy doesn't turn around there won't be any theater.

Ah OK, when you said "spec", I thought you meant from Dolby. Hardware implementation is going to be all over the place at first. Remember when PLIIx was first introduced? It ended up on plenty of 6.1 receivers, which nullified its main advantage (stereo rears) over EX decoding. Similarly, it may take a few models before we start seeing full 9.1-channel implementations of PLIIz.

I was actually thinking of both specs to a degree. On the one side, when did Dolby start to offer manufacturers enough detail (either a finalized or draft spec of PLIIz or even just a white paper and schedule for development) to justify including the support in hardware? On the other side, how long ago was the hardware for the R-972 finalized enough to make adding two more analog channels (or adding hardware to integrate a second zone into the main system) practical?

As you say, short of somebody like Lexicon adding support to the MC-12 (which has the advantage of significant flexibility in output channels), it may be a while before we see 9.1 hardware available to support PLIIz and rear surrounds simultaneously.

Sorry I didnt catch that!

Good question. I should drop into the Sherwood thread at AVS to see if there's any mention either way. Worst case, if it ends up that Sherwood/Outlaw can't do 9.1 out, then hopefully they'll at least allow for 5.1+back or 5.1+height. Options are always helpful. Unfortunately, Lex never activated the two "AUX" channels on the MC-12. I doubt they will, considering it's an 8-year-old platform and they're probably concentrating on its replacement.

I've loosely followed the thread. Details remain scarce, so we'll probably not know for sure if the hardware could offer 9.1 until we see a manual. The "5.1+height or 7.1" option still seems plausible, but unless they've already got the firmware in place I doubt they'll delay to get it included at launch. (I'd hope they wouldn't, at least, considering the delays they've already had.)

This cropped up in the Sherwood thread recently (from Jeff at Sherwood):
Sounds like we may see Pro Logic IIz in the 997 at some point, although not necessarily on day one.

That's good news. The Volume and the loudness compensation (compensation for not playing at reference level) are pretty important to me, more important than Height. I am looking forward to seeing what the 997 offers.

Mounting the speakers in wall after the fact is easy, IF the wiring is in place already. So, it would be best to put wiring in place for all possibilities.

Or, you could put pvc in place so it would be easy to run the wiring later, if you plan to use expensive speaker wire.

I think I'm going to prewire for both. I'm going to use 10 or 12 gauge belden so the cost won't be huge.

"That's good news. The Volume and the loudness compensation (compensation for not playing at reference level) are pretty important to me, more important than Height."

Jeff at Sherwood says the 972 isn't going to get Dolby Volume.

The prospect of the added height speakers has gotten me interested in HT again. I remember reading about 10.2 way back in the day. Seems like its almost available. I suspect the 997 won't do this though since its so overdue already

yeah, I think they need to build a 9 channel amp first . The PLIIz will be necessary for me to consider the Outlaw product weather its a 997 or some future version

I think a nine-channel amp would come after a nine-channel processor. Assuming that PLIIz is added to the 997 as a firmware update, there's a pretty decent chance that it will be done by re-assigning the surround back outputs for the height channels. Jeff didn't seem to rule out using the second zone outputs to drive the height channels, but I got the impression that it was significantly more likely that they'd have to use the surround backs instead. (This is what Onkyo is going to be doing, as well - and most likely anybody else who adds PLIIz in the near future, as hardware designs with the extra two output channels are going to take time to develop.)

Due to constraints in my family room I have my front speakers mounted high up near the ceiling aimed down. The tweeters are pointed at the seating area so they meet that requirement. I don't have any way to add height speakers therefore (unless they go IN the ceiling forward of the mains, but it's a flat roof with no room under the drywall of the ceiling).

My main right and left speakers are home brew, and taking an idea from an NHT design they are angled at about 20 degrees (the baffle board is tilted not the box). I also put the WOOFER on top of the tweeter with the idea that it would be mounted near the ceiling.

There are rooms where the height channel will be impractical, just as there are rooms where back surrounds are impractical. It sounds like your room will not support the height channel. My room could support it, but unless I used some really small or in-wall/in-ceiling height speakers I doubt the WAF factor would be very high on it.

Ah, if only we had high playback spaces in which we could sit in near the geometric center - it might be possible to achieve solid 360-degree sound images with just FOUR tracks feeding wide-dispersion speakers - arranged in a tetrahedron. I wonder if anyone has ever tried it.

The WAF is why I went with a wall mounted bookshelf sized speaker design. I had always wanted to try building my own (I love woodworking), and I was able to finish the speakers in white which didn't clash with the wall color (wife's suggestion).
The room won't work too well with rear surround either because our primary sitting position is a couch against the rear wall. The surround speakers are mounted on the rear wall to either side of the room. These are upward firing speakers similar to the GR Research surround design. I suppose I could place one or two rear speakers in the middle of rear wall (just above the couch) but this would be more of a 6.1 than a 7.1 system. Still, it might add something worthwhile.

Hint to Outlaw ... How about a wall mountable sealed box speaker design? Also consider a plain white finish with a white grill. Some wives think speakers should be heard and not seen (or at least not stand out).