A changing of the guards...

Well, gunslingers, I'm about to conduct a little experiment that will likely interest a number of you. It's been almost exactly seven years since I made any significant change to my home theater speaker line-up (although there have been a few adjustments along the way, such as changing side surrounds when we moved and using two different subwoofers). My Paradigm Reference speakers have been very good to me during those seven years. Nonetheless, I'm going to try something a bit different shortly: changing out the front trio for some Outlaw speakers. I've put in an order for a pair of cherry Bookshelves and a cherry LCR. I've been mulling it over for quite a few months now, but have finally pulled the trigger. I will, of course, report back with details once I have them here and running...

Cool beans...would have liked to hear your experiences on three LCRs, but it will be interesting to see what you think of that setup.

My co-worker has three LCR's (paired with a 990 and a stack of M2200's), but we haven't arranged a gathering at his place yet to hear them.

gonk -- did you audition any other speakers before deciding to try out the Outlaws? If so, I'd be interested in any comparisons and, in any event, look forward to your report on the new set-up.

Bob

Gonk,
It will be interesting to read your thoughts on the sights and sounds.....

That's great Gonk.
Congratulaions on your upgrade, I hope one of your reviews will be forthcomming. We'll be anxious to get your opinnions.

Gonk:
Regarding new spkrs: I believe I read on another forum (AVS?)that these are made by SNELL. Do you know? Any evidence, or is this simply hearsay?

Mornin', fellas...
Not beyond having listened to various other systems over the last few years, which gave me a little exposure to B&W, Spendor, PSB, Martin Logan, and AV123's X-series.
Need to start setting up an HTML file for it, I guess...
I also saw that on AVS . It doesn't appear to have been officially confirmed by any company sources (Outlaw or Snell), but the AVS'er who reported it had a picture (which I've got saved around here somewhere) of Outlaw-stickered drivers in a Snell facility. That matches up well with the fact that Outlaw's having them built domestically (Snell is in Massachusetts, the same state as Outlaw's offices). I'd call it "compelling hearsay."

It is true. The Outlaw BLS and LCR are manufactured by Snell.

Best,

Scott

- OK, so I guess it does appear to be officially confirmed. Thanks, Scott.

That is very good to know.

I have been waiting patiently for you to upgrade your speakers

Gonk, if you have the opportunity to get a hold of a pair of Ascend Acoustics Sierra-1's I would be very interested in your opinions comparing them to the Outlaw bookshelf speaker as those are what I am currently using for front L/R duty.

I've heard good things about the Sierra-1's, but haven't had a chance to hear them myself.

Hey gonk,

What led you to try the Outlaws with so many other choices of speakers in that price range? You must have put a lot of thought and effort into choosing those speakers, I'd be interested in hearing how you narrowed down the field.

I'm curious as I'm currently doing the same sort of search to replace my aging Kenwood LCRs.

Eventually I'll need to start listening to some speakers, and at the top of my list are the Triad Inroom Silver LCR, Klipsch KL-650-THX, Monitor Audio GSLCR for stuff I can buy locally and Ascend CMT-340SE and Outlaw LCR (although I've also looked at the AV123 x-cs, possibly with the Ninja mods) for stuff I can get through ID.

One thing that helped me keep the list short is lack of local shops that carry a lot of the brands. Plus I'm primarily interested in MTM type designs or other designs that have the same/similar effect.

Other than the Triads I'm not interested in buying speakers that I can't try for 30 days. I would have crossed the Triads off the list for this reason as well, but they are locally made and have demo rooms. For this reason RBH and Atlantic Technologies were crossed off as was Snell.

I'm not the type of guy who can spend $3000 on 3 speakers without hearing them and with no return guarantee.

Anyhow...to make a long post short. I just wanted to hear your thoughts on the process you went through to purchase the Outlaws and if you are going to try any other speakers as an in home comparison.

Hi Gonk. I think you'll be pleased. What's great about the BLS is that it makes music but can also give you some nice output for home theater (I can hit reference in my 3000 CF room, provided they're crossed over at 80). The switches really do work and help tailor the sound both with regards to placement as well as environment.

What really strikes me about the sound is the huge soundstaging and excellent imaging of the speakers. Joe D (or whoever designed them) really hit the sweet spot in this regard. The actual sound is on the very slightest side of warm (at least in my room), so classical winds, for instance, have a wonderful roundness that is addictive. Let us know what you think!

Tony

A brief update is in order - I've had the Outlaws hooked up since late Tuesday night, but have done very little critical listening yet. I haven't even re-calibrated the 990, which I have tried to do the last two mornings before things got in the way. They have been getting broken in a fair bit (leaving the radio playing while at work each day), but that's about the only thing I've acheived with them that I'd wanted to this week. Between this being my wife's last week at her current job, my car breaking down (the working theory is a tank of bad gas, although I won't know that for certain for another hour or so), and a couple late nights of work, my impressions so far are brief, preliminary, and based on too little setup to give the speakers a chance to be their best.

Having said all that, I'll also repeat what I told a co-worker yesterday afternoon. He's listened to my old Paradigms several times and is very fond of my system, and after asking how the Outlaws sounded he asked, "They don't sound better than the Paradigms, do they?" Despite not having set things up at all yet, I found myself saying, "Yes, I think they do - at least a little." My wife is also pleased with both the sound (as the daughter of a hard-core audiophile, she has a tendency to notice changes to the system even when she isn't paying attention) and the appearance. The finish is beautiful - pictures on the site and the ones I've taken don't really do them justice - and I really like the metal grilles. I'll post a picture or two shortly as a little something to tide the thread over until I can spend a weekend really putting them through their paces (calibrated, placement tweaked, switches experimented with, and some good listening fun).
It was an odd process, to be honest. For several years now (probably around four years, actually), my wife has been interested in the possibility of replacing our tower speakers with bookshelf speakers, but I never pursued it too far. The arrival of Outlaw's speakers (and particularly some of Tonygeno's early comments about them) piqued my curiousity enough to get me thinking about actually doing a speaker upgrade of some sort. I might have gone back to Paradigm and demo'ed some Studio/20's and a new matching center, but the local representation dried up and I'm not sure if anybody has picked the line back up. Because the Bookshelves were what triggered the discussions of an upgrade, I talked a bit with Outlaw about the speakers and their design. I liked the approach that they were taking with the speaker products, and after some discussion with Scott I decided to give them a try...
Will do, Tony. I'm looking forward to it...

OK, here are two pics. Note that I've got some plans for building stands eventually and need to try to borrow a set from my father-in-law as a starting point, but for the moment the mains are at a non-optimal mounting height on top of the side cabinets. First is a shot of the left channel, followed by an overall shot.





The flash makes the grilles more transparent than they are in real life, by the way.

Thanks for the update Gonk! They look great.

Same thing happens when i take pics of my B&W center. It has a metal center-section to the grill that vanishes from the flash.

Looking forward to your in-depth review.

Gonk,

Looks great!!!!!!

Is it possible to move the Outlaw logo badge?
The center channel looks odd with the logo on the end.

You know that someday you are going to have to upgrade your display.

The badge on the LCR has to be on that end of the grille, but it can be rotated so that it is upright in any orientation (top or bottom for a vertical LCR placement, left or right for a horizontal LCR placement). I've contemplated flipping the grille 180 degrees to see if I like it better on the right or the left.

Ah, yes, my TV... Believe me, you're not to first person to comment on my use of a CRT, but part of the negotiations associated with putting a 7.1 system in the den was putting it in a nice piece of furniture. I should be able to a 37" flat panel in that cabinet without problems (so long as there are no side-mounted speakers), which is a decent sized image at our viewing distance, but right now I don't think I could find any flat screen display that could match the picture quality of my trusty Zenith CRT. It may weigh a ton and be 4:3 aspect ratio, but I figure it'll be a few more years before something that can provide better picture quality in that footprint will be affordable. Once something like that does come along (OLED, perhaps?), trust that I'll be doing a bit of upgrading. Of course, there's also the occasional thoughts of a retractable projection screen and an LCoS front projector, but that's much more of a "wouldn't it be cool if" than a "let me get the credit card out" sort of thought...

I figured the video display would be next!

Are you still using the LFM-1?

I am still using the LFM-1, and it's still going strong after more than four years.

OK, after a crazy couple days, I've got the system calibrated with the Outlaws. I still need to arrange for loaner stands, I think, as it'll be a while before the plans to design and build permanent stands yield any actual hardware, but even up high these puppies sound great! I spent a very theraputic hour on the couch after getting the calibration done (starting at almost 10:30), moving only to grab a different disc out of the cabinet after every couple of songs and toss it in the 983H. I'll definitely be doing more listening this weekend, and will tinker a bit with the controls on the speakers to see what fun they can bring to the mix. It'll probably be another week or more (probably more, considering current workload) before I get enough information gathered and compiled into a coherent form to post my review, but it's in the works...

Gonk, What are you using for surrounds and why did you not do the LCRs all around

One of the reasons behind this move was to transition from a large tower speaker to a relatively small bookshelf, assuming that it could be done without a sonic compromise. The LCR is smaller than my old center channel by a couple inches, but when you stand one up on end and put it on even the most inobtrusive stand you are still going to have something that presents a similar visual footprint in the space. Hence, the decision to go with a pair of Bookshelves and a single LCR. As I sit here at work, trying to get some stuff done for a deadline tomorrow, my little Logitech computer speakers keep reminding me of just how good the Bookshelves have proven themselves to be (needless to say, I'd prefer to be listening in the den at home). I've got plans in place to assemble a test pair of slim speaker stands in the very near future, and I'm looking forward to spending some time this weekend playing with the speaker switches. (I kept getting distracted by the sound during the listening sessions I've found time for over the last few days.) While they've already proven themselves a sonic upgrade in subtle but pleasing ways, I'm pretty sure that there's more they can do - particularly once I get them on some stands.

For now, I'm using Axiom M3ti side surrounds and Paradigm Studio ADP rear surrounds. The Studio ADP's are likely to remain, but I'm already contemplating a pair of black B-stock Bookshelves to replace the M3ti's. The side surround positions available in my room are limiting, which is why the ADP's are no longer filling that role. The M3ti's were a cost-effective way to fit within the architectural constraints that I had, but they were never quite up to the challenge of replacing the ADP's or of equaling the Paradigm Studios. Matching Bookshelves there would be great, but I'm thinking of those being black B-stocks both for cost reasons (the M3ti's won't fetch much to help offset the cost of the BLS's) and squeamishness (my surround locations will require that I mount these puppies on the wall, most likely using the existing brackets, and that means running screws into the cabinets - something that I don't like the idea of with the nice cherry finish).

Burning the midnight oil, are we! WOW! 2:56AM, Gonk? You da'man!!

Seriously, looking forward to your official review.

Edit: That's 1:56 Central Std Time....oops!

It's still officially way too late... That post got written a piece at a time over the course of about two or three hours last night, while I was up at work dealing with a problematic energy model that has to go out today.

OK, everybody, I'm going to toss a question out here...

I've spent some good quality time with these speakers over the last couple of weeks, and they will be staying. The Bookshelves will also be moving onto stands at some point, but I don't expect to have stands ready for at least another week (maybe longer). I've got most of my review written. Here's the question: do I leave the draft sitting on my hard drive until the stands are done and I've had a chance to listen to the Bookshelves at their optimal mounting height, or do I post the review this week and update it later once I've spent some time with the Bookshelves on stands?

Your call, fellas - I can go either way...

Gonk,
Initial response would be inviting.... w/ a
follow-up covering highlight w/ stands.
plus i would suggest a new thread...
call it "after the guards changed."

Gonk -- Agree with tmdlp; am very interested in your thoughts. But if it involves much extra work for you, I also can wait.

It's not any big deal either way. I still need to do some editing and proofing on a few spots, but I'll probably post it tonight or tomorrow and then add to it in a couple weeks after I've got the stands in place (picked up some shorter wood screws during lunch today so I can start assembly when I have a chance).

It may get some tweaking over the next few days and I'll add to the "Sound" section once I have the stands built, but my BLS and LCR review is now online. I'm off to edit my sig now...

I've pulled the trigger on a set of BLS's and an LFM-2(combo deal). I'm used to Paradigm Studio 100's and Studio 20's for the last ten years, so this should be an interesting comparison. I loved the Studios, but now that I live in an apartment instead of a house, I try to get the smallest speakers possible, in case I have to move.
I felt that the Paradigms were among the best I've heard, but at higher volumes, the top end was a bit too harsh. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the BLS's will be a bit smoother. : )

Gonk -- Nice review. Do you have any sense of what the difference in sound would be if you have gone with 3 LCRs? Thanks.

Hard to say how much difference there might be. The Bookshelves, being a ported design, can go lower, but I've got them crossed over high enough that it wouldn't be likely to be an issue. I would suspect that, with the same drivers in both and similar crossover networks, the differences would be pretty subtle.

Nice review, Gonk !
I believe Outlaw would find that their sales would improve if they had you Beta testing this stuff so that we could get early impressions from someone whose opinions we all hold in high regard.

Expect an update to my speaker review in the coming days. I was able to finish my stands and get the Bookshelves onto them last Saturday. Initial feelings were very positive, as the soundstage and imaging both seemed to benefit from the proper mounting height and the wider spacing. Unfortunately, I haven't had much time to listen to them - worked Sunday morning and all day Monday, then fell Monday night and succeeded in breaking my femur just below the hip joint. I got home from the hospital last night, and expect to spend some quality time in a rocking chair in front of the system over the next several days. That should let me get a good feel for what the Bookshelves sound like with the added benefit of the stands.

Geez, gonk, you had to break something to get a little quality time with your new speakers? Really sorry to hear that…

Yeah, not really the preferred way to arrange for some extended listening sessions. On the bright side, the speakers are on their stands and everything is set up so I can kick back and enjoy the system while my bone mends. I can feed DVD's and CD's to the 983H, Blu-rays to the BD30, and even HD-DVD's to the HD-A2. We've even got an old Dell laptop with a wifi card so I can surf from the couch or the rocking chair.

Hope You have a quick recovery!

Get well soon Gonk!

Ouch! Hope you are back on your feet soon, Gonk!

Thanks for the well wishes, guys. I hope to know more about how long my recovery is likely to last after Monday morning's appointment with the surgeon. It's been probably as hard on my wife as on me so far, especially since she's still getting settled into her new job and she and our daughter are both in a wedding tomorrow.

Best wishes for a quick recovery Gonk !

Long time reader, first time poster.

Get well soon...and I'm looking forward to the addendum. I'm planning on replacing my center channel with a LCR soon as it's my worst speaker, but my ancient dcm tf350's will be next...

Looks like a good bet...

Also looking forward to a product that supports HDMI so I can replace my trusty (yet aging) 1050!

I have made an update to my review today. It's not terribly in depth, but here it is:
No picture of the stands, and I've been officially instructed to stay off my right leg for three months (to allow the bone to heal completely before stressing it, since none of us are keen on me needing a hip replacement) so getting good pics of them may be tricky. In the meanwhile, though, my rather rough looking and unassuming stands will keep the Bookshelves at their recommended mounting height and I'll happily enjoy listening to them there.

Glad your stands are working.
What height did you make them?
Good luck with your leg.

Thanks. Per the manual, I'm using 30" stands.

Nice addition. Sure makes me want to try those speakers.

I've made two sets of stands with very different forms. The first set I made with baluster's. You can usually find nice balusters for a good price. I used 4 for each stand and then cut them to size. Great thing is you can do very plain and simple or super fancy. Plus you can either paint or stain them with ease since they're sanded and ready to go.

On another set of speakers, I needed a heavy base to support the speakers and I made a small box on the bottom and filled it with cement. Theirs a metal bole that extends from the base. Works great, but their super heavy.

In the future I'll combine the two methods and make the base with cement much smaller. The current base weigh 70lbs. Way overkill but they're not going to tip over anytime soon. The baluster stands look pretty good. Even made a pair for my desktop speakers, so their at ear level.

Oh and I'm by no means skilled with wo0d working. I don't even own a table saw. However, I'll buy one for future projects as it'll eliminate several mistakes I made, like not having one.

My stand design as intended to be visually low-profile. The support post is off-center (so it tucks in alongside the entertainment center), and I've got a piece of all-thread inside it to keep the base plate and top plate secured to the post in spite of the cantilever condition at the top. I did it with 3/4" MDF and no table saw. A table saw would have helped, but as a concept it turned out well.