Nice Bookshelf Speakers

Outlaw,

Very nice looking speaker with a good list of features. SEAS drivers have an excellent reputation. I will be very interested to get a report on how the speakers sound with the 2150 and one of your subs. Can you provide the frequency graphs? What crossover point would you recommend?

It looks like we have an answer to our question of what was being announced this month...

The FAQ says the following:
"The loudspeakers have a -3dB down point of 52Hz."
Based on that, I'd lean toward a crossover point no lower than 60Hz - and I'd probably give 80Hz a try just to see how it compares.

look great - nice to know what's coming (although I don't quite see how their design complements, as the press release claims, the look of the retroreceiver). I don't see info about their sensitivity here (yet) - will be interesting to see what use people will put them to: which outlaw products/alternatives...

Wow,

The Outlaws are finally getting into speakers. I am thinking about Ascend Acoustics bookshelves now I must wait for Outlaw.

It seems the tweeter is a take off on the Seas 27TDFC. The woofer is the Seas CA15RLY. I wonder if the xover is the typical 4th order acoustic, or did they step out and go for a 2nd order acoustic? It would be very interesting to see the frequency response and compare it to a similar CA15RLY speaker such as this DIY one. Seas drivers are some of the best money can buy so they didn't skimp there.



Well Outlaw give us the rest of the details!


Tim

Has anyone on this site been involved with a beta test? Any dimensional info on these?

At $1,000 per pair...there is alot of competition out there from many top line speaker mfr's.
I would be very interested in hearing how these stack up against B&W 602's and Paradigm Studio 20's

Yeah, why should we want those speakes over say offerings from Tyler Acoustics which uses
SEAS top of the line drivers for the same price. That's not to mention that you can get them in any finish you desire!

Not to be a sour puss, but considerable resources must have been used in designing these speakers. This can only mean no one cares to fix or is able to fix the bugs carried by the 970. I, like pretty much most 970 owners, am still waiting for the no audio fix. Sorry, these speakers could win Product of The Year honors but Outlaw gets no more of my money until the 970's 'features' (a cruel connotation given by my audiophile friends) are corrected.

The resources invested in speaker design and the resources invested in software debugging probably share very little in common.

It would seem that Outlaw's announcement has stirred a fair bit of interest - I don't that I've ever seen 198 guests on the forum before.

This is a mighty big announcement for Outlaw - they've clearly put some effort into this. As with any speaker, we'll have to wait to hear some user feedback to know the full story. It should be interesting...

Nice step Outlaws!

My only disappointment is that, in your introductory message, you failed to mention a single Canadian loudspeaker manufacturer. Us Canucks know where the best speakers in the world come from. Paradigm, Energy, psb, Totem, to name but a few.

I'll take your ommission as a shrewd marketing ploy to not draw attention to your only real competition!

Jeff Mackwood

SEAS makes good drivers as does Vifa and Scanspeak. All of those drivers can be bought in the same size as used in the Outlaws for less than $50.00 USD each from reputable and authorized sources. Unless Outlaw is designing their own cabinets and crossovers then why the high price? Keep in mind that I am extremely satisfied with my Outlaw Equipment.

POST REMOVED FOR OFFENSIVE LANGUAGE AND PERSONAL ATTACK

Arthur,

I can understand your frustration with the model 970 no audio problem, however I will never understand such a vicious personel attack on a fellow Outlaw! Particulary one who has on a regular basis helped so many.

I understand the frustration of unresolved problems, Arthur - but my point was that the resources that remain focused on fixing the problem that you and others have been stuck with for a long time now are pretty specialized. Remember, please, that part of Outlaw's structure is to not operate their own factories - they contract with very large entities such as Eastech, Etronics, and ATI to use those companies' facilities and resources. It's become pretty common practice. In the case of the 970 and 1070, the partner is Eastech, and the burden of fixing the 1070/970 problems would have to be shared by Eastech. At both the Outlaw and Eastech ends, the work is going to be software-based to a huge degree - digging through raw data, debugging code, testing new code. These speakers, on the other hand, are being built somewhere else entirely and aren't going to be involving programmers. Outlaw isn't building them in the spare conference room, for that matter. Their announcement explains that these are US-made speakers (and the testing tolerances suggest a fairly sophisticated facility at that). Eastech isn't building these - even if they did make speakers, they don't make them in the US. Outlaw and their partnerships are big enough to run multiple projects in parallel - they have to be, if they want to make more than one or two things. My purpose in posting was to try to reassure you that this announcement did not mean that your problem had become any less of a priority. It was not my intent to be patronizing.

It's worth pointing out that there are other pieces of the puzzle that could quickly contribute to a higher price. The cabinets very likely are being made specifically for Outlaw, as are the crossovers. The crossover is said to be using "audiophile grade" components - those pieces alone can get expensive. The boundary compensation stuff is also custom from what we've seen described so far. The tweeter is also not an off-the-shelf item based on the FAQ, which will again add some cost. Toss in the issue of manufacturing labor (assembled in the US, with a corresponding labor cost) and I'd suspect that the drivers end up being a smaller part of the cost than it might at first appear. As Svet pointed out earlier, there are a number of other companies making very good speakers with similar drivers - and at similar (or even higher) price tags.

I'm looking forward to some listener feedback on these, as that will be where the rubber really meets the road. I just have to keep my wife from seeing the pictures posted this weekend - it's been a couple years since the last pitched the idea of smaller front speakers, but she might find the idea of an Outlaw bookshelf a nice way to scale down our Paradigm towers...

I love outlaw, but while these speakers may sound great, they look kinda . . . .[nice way to put it] like something I would have purchased at Montgomery Wards [basic electronics store like Sears] 10 years ago.



p.s. they are more expensive (cherry version)than my Polk LSi9's. Tough price point. Would they really sound better than the LSi9's?? I'd love to know.

Interesting, I suppose the proof will be in the pudding when it comes to whether or not the $1000 price is justified vs. the competition.

Whether they "sound better" is going to be subjective. My HT is all Polk Audio as well, and we polkies tend to like that sound. I am more of a vintage polkie (a nice way to say old) and may be a while before a part with my RTA-12Cs of 20 years. However, I have been intrigued by the Rockets by Onyx line of speakers. It sounds like the Outlaws are targeting a similar line and I think that's very smart. The brick-and-mortar showroom speakers are getting outrageously expensive (B&W, et. al.) and, sad to say, my polkies will not live forever.

I would have thought a Sat system would have been the first entry to this market as they already have the subs.

Interesting product.

My 990 has been a charm with not problems. Im a big fan of this company.

But if I had a 970 with the aformentioned problem I would be pissed!

Can't wait to hear the reviews on these. Probably will not be buying another pair of speakers for a while but it's always interesting when a company like Outlaw branches out in a new direction.

I suppose that since they are planning to offer individual speakers, somebody could get a package with five or seven of these plus a sub.

Hi Gonk, could you please answer my question over on the 7500 forum if you know the answer? Thanks

How about an apology to gonk and the other readers here Mr. Pappas? You may be frustrated my the problems you are having but that's no excuse for your childish outburst and attack against someone who openly tries to help people here. If you're having a problem with Outlaw Audio you should take it up with Outlaw rather than acting the unhappy fool here, it accomplishes nothing.

Many other audio boards are crawling with similar pointless personal attacks and abusive comments all issued from behind the shield of the Internet. If you can't be civil then take your comments to one of those forums please.

Sat/Sub enthusiasts: just think of this bookshelf speaker as a ‘large satellite’ speaker. While I have not spent much time pursuing small satellite speakers for my own use, in any of the trade shows or conventions I have attended – quite a few – I have not heard any small satellite speaker that would satisfy me. That’s one reason I have three-way speakers all around that the manufacturer called ‘mini-monitors.’ With a 6” woofer, 6” mid-range and 1” tweeter, they are 18 7/8" x 8.5" x 10.5" and weigh in at about 40 lbs. each. For performance reasons, I’d even like to see them have a second 6” woofer and a larger enclosure, but then that would be stretching the term ‘mini-monitor’ beyond it’s meaning by a great deal.

At least two things intrigue me about the Outlaw offering. One, the Outlaws have customizable response settings that I usually only see on internally amplified speakers. To be implement this properly, Outlaw’s passive crossovers have a level of complexity and flexibility not seen in many well-lauded loudspeakers. Two, the commitment to make sure that all speakers of the same model will perform within half-a-dB of spec so that a buyer could start with two and expand later without fear of unmatched sound.

(Don’t know if they ever would, but I’d like to see Outlaw offer versions of their budding loudspeaker line available without any internal passive crossover components at all, instead matched to an active-crossover/multi-amplifier designed specifically to drive the associated loudspeaker(s). Of course Outlaw would likely have the majority of their business in the passive crossover configuration, since that what most of the market is used to buying and using. But having fully active crossover variants would certainly raise an eyebrow of interest on my face.)

I’ll be waiting to see a few reviews of these, although reviews of loudspeakers tend to vary much more than the electronics as loudspeakers tend to influence the ‘flavor’ of the sound more than almost any other component. I almost feel sorry for a loudspeaker heading for reviewers’ auditions. Even if the sound were somehow perfect, reviewers still have to find details of differentiation – and Outlaw is not claiming perfection. Watch out for the slings and arrows!

Mr. Pappas
One can understand frustration, but not an irrational, unprofessional, and crude attack on another persons' integrity. Could it be that Gonks' posts along with others on the forum helped guide you to an Outlaw purchase, and now you feel betrayed. I for one take your tirade personally as a member of the Outlaw family, and I hope we never see another such post again on this site from you or anyone else.
UMtiger

Hats off to Gonk for his dignified repsonse to Mr. Pappas. His remarks were totally uncalled for. Gonk is a true gentleman and has helped many people on this board -- myself included.

I don't want this thread to veer further off topic, but as a fellow 970 owner, I cannot fathom why Art's 970 problems are so severe it has been banished to the closet. I encountered problems with my 970 that have been previously enumerated on the 970 board. But I have since had minimal issues since the firmware upgrade; and now that I understand the basis of the problem -- which seems to relate to an inability (at times) to lock onto the correct surround mode when switching sources / channels -- I have been able to mitigate it.

The unit has otherwise served me faithfully and has certainly exceeded my expectations in bypass mode as a 2-channel preamp. Is it perfect? No; but it's a darn sight easier and less expensive to maintain than my previous $2K vacuum tube preamp (1988 dollars) and a lot less noisy.

Art mentioned his audiophile friends' snub about the 970's "features." As someone who has been both a hobbyist and, at one time, a seller of high end gear, I guess I'm a bit jaded since I've been around the block a time or two. But I have to scratch my head at how a few minor issues with a budget unit like the 970 have grown to such huge proportions.

True frustration is a $40K pair of IRS Series III speakers that you can't demo because they keep blowing EMIMs and EMITs; or hoping the silicone goo in the tonearm well of a $2,000 turntable will make it to your customer's house without spilling all over the platter. The 970 --warts and all -- is a cake-walk compared to the mega-buck, finicky audiophile-grade stuff out there. Put that in your audiophile pipe and smoke it. :p

I hope Outlaw fixes the last of the 970's issues soon so we can all put them behind us; but I hope owners keep things in perspective on an otherwise great pre/pro and will enjoy the unit for something other than an expensive door stop.

I am surprised and slightly disappointed that Outlaw did not consider a horn type of speaker ie. Klipsch. After all , Klipsch speakers are used in more theaters nationwide than any other speaker system. The speakers that they are making look very much like Polk Audio, which is a fine speaker but again, it is not found in AMX theaters.

"All of the loudspeakers will be manufactured here in the US to our strict criteria"

Kudos to the Outlaws for paying the price for quality components and craftmanship.

The room response settings sound very interesting and I would think folks with narrow rooms would find the feature particularly attractive.

It will be interesting to see how these fare in a pretty tough market.

Using that type of speaker technology would make it a bit large for a bookshelf, and that appears to be their goal here.


If you look at the speakers in a typical cinema, the only ones with horn type drivers are the speakers behind the screen. Look on the side walls of your local mega-plex and you'll see speakers with more conventional drivers. Those speakers are more akin to a bookshelf speaker than a large line-array or other type of "big venue" speaker. In addition, I might suggest that Klipsch is not the leader in cinema installations, that is probably a title held by JBL Professional. Look in an AMC Cinema and you'll probably find JBL or something else, but NOT Klipsch.

Don't be too disappointed if Outlaw is not chasing a 'genuine' movie theater 'sound.' I find that the majority of movie theater sound is actually, as a total system, quite disappointing – rather dreadful for ‘close your eyes and listen to the details of those musical instruments.’ There are exceptions of course. I find that a home system that is exceptional with music in a surround mode, such as 5.1 SACD, will, for the most part, also be exceptional for acoustic reproduction, on a reduced scale, that meets or exceeds many wonderful movie theaters at 5.1 or better soundtrack playback. (Assuming that environmental concerns are properly addressed.)

Yes, there are fine speakers that are at least partially horn-based. I think the Outlaw designers know this and probably considered one or more horn drivers. I also trust that Outlaw made some rather wise choices in regard to their loudspeaker design. If a horn-based driver would have been truly better in their bookshelf system, I don’t think Outlaw would have shied away from the concept.

PodBoy makes an excellent point about theater speakers. Something that is equally important to consider is the application (EDIT: as pointed out by bestbang4thebuck) - a home theater is a very different environment from a commercial movie theater, with different design goals and acoustical issues. Horns tend to be more efficient (thus taking less power to drive), but I don't see any reason to find a horn design essential to good sound.

The only horn bookshelf I can think of is the HSU Research HB-1 - proof that horns can find a place in applications like this, but their novelty as a horn-loaded design just reinforces the fact that the absence of horns does not a bad home theater speaker make.

This new offering falls in-line with where I thought Outlaw would go once they got into speakers: they offer subs already, a sat/sub system limits their market to HT and they want something to match the 2150 and they may also want to test the waters with a smaller speaker before jumping into a full range that would take more resources to develop.

I'm positive that the new speaker will sound great. I am the happy owner of a pair of M200's. I went through three other amps (Arcam, Adcom and T&A) before I could find an amp that would drive my speakers to a level and clarity to my liking. I also own a 1070. True, it has had a few bugs. However, they have mostly been taken care of and I know all of the problems with it will be fixed. The 1070 is hands down the best receiver I have ever owned, and I've owned many many with price tags far exceeding the 1070.

I believe in Outlaw and their business model - great products with on-line pricing/value and outstanding customer service. I'm sure the new speaker will not disappoint. However, I'll be holding out for the full range model.

While horns are high efficiency, they also are generally high distortion. Actually the speakers used in many theaters are JBL Pro products. A horn is also not a great Hi-Fi stereo speaker for this same reason. The tweeter they have chosen, "modified", is one of the lowest distortion tweeters made today. So there decision on drivers is IMHO excellent. Good driver do not add up to good design though. It's all in the crossover!

Tim

Unlike some others here, I think the appearance of the speakers is fine, and will probably be more impressive in reality than in pictures. They are very similar to the KEF RDM2's that currently reside in my bookshelf and nearly disappear from notice. These are something to listen to, not look at. If they could be designed with the appearance of an actual book so much the better for actual bookshelf placement. Heresy to some, but it actually works well and fits in with the aesthetics of many rooms very easily.

Dave

Hello to all again,

I just read all the way thru and also am looking forward to reading the reviews on these speakers. I too am disappointed in pappas attack on Gonk. It was removed before I read it but I get the picture. Myself like many others on this forum have been helped out many time by Gonk.

Thanks again to you Gonk for all your help.

Dbissett, as someone who is still looking for a place to add bookshelves to the house to make room for all of my books, your idea of a "book" speaker gave me a really fun mental picture - made me grin in the midst of a crazy-hectic day. And for what it's worth, the idea of a simple, traditional bookshelf-sized speaker seemed to appeal to my wife quite a bit.

Thanks for the kind words, vp8000.

Very interesting, even to this Magneplanar owner. I wonder if these speakers might be compared to the nOrh units - also 2-way but with Scanspeak drivers, and very unusual enclosures (see www.nOrh.com) that might have both stand and spouse acceptance problems. As for why not horns, Klipsch or otherwise, their 95+ db sensitivity would be the worst possible match for Outlaw's current amplifiers. Now if Outlaw wanted to make a multichannel 10-watt tube amp, or even (dream big) a musically impeccable low-wattage Class D digital amp at a <$1K price, and then turn toward high-sensitivity, crossoverless Lowther-type speakers that could deliver down to, say, 60Hz AND mate well with their subs - !!
Like I said, dream big.

The release says Seas parts on the tweeter it does not say a Seas tweeter. What the heck does Seas parts mean? That could be just the dome or something. That woofer is one of the cheapest woofers Seas makes. It is availible for DIY for around $40 so figure the wholesale price is between 25-33% of that. This speaker is going to have a whole lot of competiton at the $1K mark.

BTW- The Taylo Mini Svet mentions is $1350 on sale presently for $1200. The Seas woofers in those would run you around $140 retail for the DIY market.

What speakers would you put on a short list of the best competition at this price point?

Saw these on AVS.


[img]http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=71857[/img]

If the speakers are mounted horizontally the tweeter and woofer are on the same horizontal axis instead of the same vertical axis. What happens to clarity in the crossover area, and to stereo imaging?

The obvious competition to compare this speaker to is the Dynaudio Audience 52.

If it can top the Dynaudio then they will have created a high value speaker.

I do want to add a couple more comments about horn style speakers, in particular Klipsch. These speakers don't have a lot of distortion as some has said. Their main selling point is that they produce clear music and music that is loud without distortion. Plus they are used exclusively by the Hard Rock Cafe franchise. Speakers are almost as subjective as politics and religion.