Getting an amp!

Hi all

I'm new to this forum and have read a great deal in the amp section. My AVR, an older Elite, isn't capable of driving my speakers.  I confirmed this when I borrowed a Bryston 4B amp to drive the mains/fronts.  These speakers came alive and the rest of the system's sound improved as well.  This is what lead me to this and other sites to find an amp solution. I had several questions about adding an amp to my HT.  I've read many posts and have found answers to these questions and concerns.  Here is what I've found - please correct me if I misunderstood.

1)  I'm running an Axiom M80 HT system, minus the sub - 2 M80 fronts, a VP180 center and 2 QS8 surrounds.  The 3 fronts are 4 ohm and the surrounds are 8 ohm.  I realize mixing different ohm speaker isn't an issue when running through an capable amp. 

2) There may be some AVR's that would run my setup but most, if not all, would benefit from a seperate power amp. Dollar for dollar, getting a seperate amp instead of a high priced AVR will have the greatest return on my investment.

3)  My HT room measures 20' x 11.5' x 7.5' (LWH).  Due to my room size my amp requirements would be satisfied with a 125 WPC @ 8 ohms (7125) but a 200 WPC @ 8 ohm (7200, 7500 or 7700) would give me more headroom/reserves.  Not to be mistaken with louder playback as the difference would be just a few db's in overall SPL's. Clarity and dynamics get the biggest increase, from a seperate amp.  The power of a 200 WPC amp would only be needed in those rare moments when demand was at it's peak and I was listening at 'high volumes', if not insane levels.  200 vs 125 wpc, while not really adding to the sound is more like not limiting the sound - this is a subjective issue for the listener as any additional power is an act of diminshing returns. However, many here have noted the 200 vs 125 wpc amps are clearer and more dynamic at all volumes.

4)  I currently need a 5 channel system.  If I go to 7 channels I can run additional speakers off my AVR.  However, if I stay with 5 channels, and I go to a Pre/Pro, I'll have to add additional amp(s) to drive any extra speakers.  If I wish to ensure future upgrades, with a Pre/Pro, I have to decide whether to go 7 channels now or plan on adding more amp(s) later...or trade up.  Either are an added costs and are up to each owner how best to proceed...pay now or pay later!  Or, just stay with 5 channel as very few 7 channel movies are avaiable. My last system was a 7.1 and my HT room is pre-wired for a 7.1 setup. Cost was the only limiting factor this time around, that and WAF!

I've been looking at Outlaw for my next amp. Ok, Emotiva as well, but I like the overall design of the Outlaws better! Since the amp will be visible from my seating position I don't want it to interfere with my HT viewing. Something about the overly bright power switch light on the front isn't really condusive to HT. I know I could always put a piece if tape over it...but ugh! Does that sound shallow!?

Something I didn't see was whether the 3.5 mm mono plug for the remote power switch was included? Oops, just found a post talking about the included cable...never mind

I like the Outlaw 7500 and 7700, or the 7200 as a mid price solution. From user and professional reviews I've read here and elsewhere, it appears that Outlaw has a very capable and competively priced product.  I'm waiting on a guy, who knows a guy...good gawd, we've all heard that one before...that installs HT and has some equipment for sale. However this turns out I'll be an amp owner very soon with Outlaw high on my list!

Thanks for listening and please feel free to chime in!

1) You are correct. Different impedances are not a concern, and neither are low impedances.

2) I would agree with that.

3) Your summary looks pretty solid - the 200W amp would offer a bit more headroom.

4) Getting the extra two channels now could involve less total cost compared to buying five channels now and adding two more channels later. It would also mean a single chassis instead of two or three later.

Thanks gonk

As I said I read lots of reviews and post over the last week. Since I've only owned AVR's before and never had issue with the sound, until now, this is new territory for me! Yes, you're absolutly right about #4. Now I just have to convince the wife that we need a 7 channel amp...which means I'll have to get another set of rears too!

If I drop your name to her do you think you could do a guy a solid?

Thanks again!

Heh... Don't hold your breath...

If you factor in real world use, you can save the $$$ and get the 7125. The M80s are 95 db efficient and you will never use all that power into them. Remember also that the 7125 is rated at 190 watts into 4 ohms. The surrounds certainly will never use all that power and don't need the headroom. In all practicality, the headroom for the 200 watt amp is way, way, overhead. You likely don't push more than 30 watts to your speakers even when you are crankin it up. 30 watts would give you an SPL around 110 db. Thats like really freaking loud and you still have 160 watts of real headroom and likely even more given Outlaws conservative ratings. Make your wallet and the spouse happy and get the 7125 and invest the savings in those rears surrounds if you like. Also don't forget the rating is an all channels driven rating and can't be compared to most AVR ratings for power output. The 7125 is a beast compared to almost any AVR amplifier. I have the 7125 and a 7500 and they are both killer equipment.

Thanks XenonMan

Another good point! The 7125 would allow me to get a couple more QS8's and stay well below $2K. That, and I'd be back to 7 channel again...I do miss the rears it my current setup. I could save even more if I bought B stock...something to think about!

I wouldn't think twice about the 7125s ability to power your speakers. I almost bought the same setup you have before I decided to go with the Maggies. It would be real interesting to have four QS8s in the same system.

Hey Zuter,

Good to see ya around these parts, I'm new to the Outlaw forum as well but have monitored this board for years. I am also considering getting an Outlaw amp in the near future.

Since I don't care about balanced connections, at least not at this point, I've been looking at the 7125 and 7200. As you may remember I was one of the folks that gave the Emotiva MPS-1 a chance years ago and during explosions in movies or jumps during dynamic passages in music, at not crazy levels, the amps would shut down. Emo blamed Axiom, which is a crock, but I don't want to go into that all over again.

Then, I moved to Odyssey Khartago Extreme mono's to drive my mains for a few years. They were fabulous, as those familiar with Odyssey would know. I ended up selling them because they would get very hot, especially stacked in the very confined AV cabinet I had at the time.

I am doing some remodeling of my basement HT/Recroom which was 31 x 30 x 9ft before. The theater was over in one corner. I am now enclosing the theater off to make it isolated. It should end up being around 17 x 18 x 9ft once completed.

I am interested in the new 978 planned to come out this year, especially with the new Audyssey offerings, and other features. However, initially I would use my Denon 3808ci as the Pre.

So I guess now I need to decide some of the same questions your pondering. With the smaller room, the 7125 probably would be adequate. I do occasionally like to crank up the tunes. The 7200 does interest me though.

Randy

Zuter,

Thanks for considering Outlaw for your amplifier choice. After reading about your goals, I too would have to agree that the best solution is to purchase the 7125 instead of the 7200. I would not worry about running out of headroom either. Here is a link to one of the most comprehensive reviews of this product:

http://www.ultimateavmag.com/content/outlaw-model-7125-amplifier

In particular, please check out the measurements section and you will find that we have actually understated the power that the 7125 delivers. Our feeling is that you will have plenty of headroom with even more to spare.


Incidentally, on that same site there is also a review of a competing power amplifier from Emotiva. Among other things, you can check out the results of the measurements and how they stack up against their own power claims.


Peter

Hey All

It's great to hear from everyone.

PeterT - The 7125 is looking real good to me. I've read the review, thanks for the link, and feel this would provide me with the solution I seek. XenonMan, yes, the QS8's are amazing, they were my first purchase from Axiom. I've never heard better surrounds, period! Being able to afford another pair, with a 7125, is just icing on the cake.

Sirquack, nice to see you here too! We are both on the same quest. Either the 7125 or the 7200 would put a smile on my face. In your case, since your HT room is a 1,000 cubic feet larger, I'd be leaning toward the 7200, IMHO. Like you I'll be changing my AVR for a pre/pro and I'm interested in Outlaw's planned 978 also, but that won't be for another year for me...damned upgradist I'm still toying with a couple Brystons but there are some minor issues within my setup that make me lean toward the Outlaw's. I'll be ready to purchase soon and $$$ for $$$ I'm confident that both you or I needn't look any further!

Zuter

I just did some math, and I think the room is going to be around 2600 cu ft. It was a bit hard to figure because it is not perfect square/rectangular and has some angled walls, but that is pretty close.

With the Axiom 80's being rated at 95dB 1w/1m inroom, they play pretty loud with little power. The price sure is attractive, especially if I consider a B-Stock item. Either way it is a nice price.

My main concern is I don't want to go down the patch of having shutdown/protection issues like I did with the Emo MPS-1, which at the time was Emo's top of the line. They blamed Axiom, saying the M80's in certain situations, were dipping way below 4ohms, kicking the amp into protection mode. In fact, the M80s are above 4ohm for the majority of the frequency range, they could almost be considered a 6ohm speaker. Other people have had issues with the XPA-2 and -5's as wall, again Emo blaims the Axiom design.

I haven't heard much with problems with the Outlaw amps, other than Tharkun, who was driving 5 M80's years ago with one of the older 200 watt amps. He had some issues and ended up returning it for some Parasound Halo's. Granted, Tharkun listed to music at insane volumes in a very large room, around 8,000 cu ft.

Anyway, I am anxious to do some more research and make a decision, I hope in the near future. These models have been out for some time, so I wonder if there are some new offerings that will be released at some point. Amp design hasn't changed much in A A/B designs for many years, so most likely there won't be.

Like you, the only instance I've heard of in with Outlaw amps have had problems driving Axioms was when they were in a tremendously large room (8,000 cu.ft. is off the charts big). There have been folks using the 200W Outlaw amps with Polk LSi towers (which are low impedance and low efficiency) with good results. There have also been a whole lot of people using Outlaw amps with various Axiom speakers over the last decade.

I drive 5 Klipsch speakers with my 7125 and although they are slightly more efficient than the Axioms, the amp never even gets warm. If you have protection issues with the 7125 then you need to send it back. 200W vs. 125W is only 2 db SPL and you don't need the power.

Ok, I've purchased the 7700 (b-stock) and should be arriving next week.

Thanks for everyones help and comments! I know the 7700 is more than I'll need but the savings were enough for me to go with this model over the 7125.

I'll be looking for pre/pro, in a year or so and I'll be following the new units that Outlaw will be offering soon.

Again thanks everyone!

I don't think you'll ever regret purchasing the 7700. It's an amp you'll probably never outgrow.

As a 7500 owner, I agree with KOYAAN.

Zuter, the 7125 is on sale, killer dealeo...

Contact Outlaw and they will probably give you the sale price on the 7700. Saves a bundle.

Well, the 7200 would be more in my price range, I've been considering a B-Stock as well. Of course, need the WAF.

my point was that the 7700 is on sale for $250 less than the 7200 right now.

True, and I have been considering that today. I was thinking that if the 7200 was on sale it would be even lower. But, the better design of the 7700 has be interested. And, something about the 7125 at $695 has my interest as well, but I hate upgradeitis.