Web site changes

Well, would you look at that... Not only are there product pages for the 7500 and 7700 on Outlaw's site, but there's even been a change to the layout of the order page that shows both amps for sale. It looks like they really are close to shipping these puppies.

Both the 7500 and 7700 list maximum power consumption at 1800W. How is that possible?

The 755 and 770 were rated the same way - that's the maximum power that they can theoretically receive from the standard residential 15A circuit.

gonk: the circuits in my house are wired at 20A. Why? Who knows, but they are.

I am very interested in the 7500. I just bought an Onkyo 703 and plan to use it as a pre/pro.

Why didn't I buy one of the Outlaw's pre/pros? I just couldn't convince myself that there was more value with the Outlaw. Considering all the features, they really was not much of a comparison. I got the Onkyo for $600, shipped free.

Now, for the amps, I can't wait for some reviews!!!!

Rat:

I think you sold yourself short on the pre.

As far as the power ratings are concerned, I really really don't understand what Outlaw is doing. If they are claiming that that amps can only draw X because X lies within what a typical 15A circuit can provide, I wish that would be conveyed clearly. Am I to understand if you have 20A or 30A available that the amp will happily gobble it up and feed it to your speakers?

Cheers,

Ritz: I have been looking at receivers and pre/pros for over a year now. I have carefully studied all the performance specifications. I have read numerous professional and user reviews and comments.

Quite frankly I believe all the comments about something being warm, bright, etc. is just so much BS. If you believe the specifications on frequency spectrum and THD, there is NO engineering way that one can be warmer or brighter or more neutral than any other unless there is something going on in the digital signal processing.

Then for the digital processing, we have the specifications for Dolby Digital, THX, and other certification. If you believe the manufacturer specifications that they meet certification then there is no difference there, either.

The ONLY difference I can find is in the power supply as to whether ALL channels can be driven simultaneously. Most receivers can not do this. Most receivers suffer from this. That's why I am going to use the Onkyo as a pre/ pro and get some "honkin" amps.

I also believe the notion that you should do video switching and conversion in your audio gear to be wrong. Do your audio stuff in your audio gear, and, do your video stuff in your video gear. I have a new Sony SXRD and a OPPO DVD, I don't need my audio gear to do anything with video signals.

After over a year of looking, I have some pretty strong opinions.

Hey, we've all got our opinions. I'm sure some of mine aren't so popular either. My background is as a studio engineer and EE wannabe (switched to economics/finance so I could actually find at job after the Reagan years). I have not heard a receiver of any brand that I think compares to the 990 until you get to the range of 2-3 times the price of the 990.

Cheers,

I used to own the Denon 5800 receiver which was 5 times the price of the 990 after upgrading the 5800. I realize it is an older unit, but what has changed in DD/DTS decoding? The algorithms are still the same. The 5800 does not even come close to the 990.

Ratpack,

While I am not familiar with the Onkyo 703, I used to have a Yamaha 2500 used as a pre/pro and went to the 990. There was a big difference in performance. More of my thoughts/comparisons can be found here:

http://processors.dblattman.com

I wish they all could sound the same(as long as it was good),if you've owned enough gear you'll know there are many factors in"good sound".It's no accident and its not "standards"its the mfr.design/process and quality of parts used that make the sound.I've personally never heard two prepro or avr units that sounded the same,even from the same company when at different price levels.

You'll never know what a good amp sounds like without a decent pre/pro(even if its one in a avr),but they are not created equal,all imo.

I agree with Ritz, doug and edzepplin. My background is the opposite of ritz, I'm an EE and a wannaba studio engineer. As a hobby I do some recording but I mostly do sound restorations (Reel to reel, LP's etc.). Specifications unfortunately do not convey how something will sound. Too many factors involved not to mention how all those factors interact. As basic as an amplifier is, I have never heard 2 sound the same. They interct with the load (speaker), the source, the power supply, even what temperature it is running at.
The problem is also compounded by the fact that the specifications change depending on how they are measured. An amplifier will sound different at 1W, 10W and 100W. What specifications do tell us is that the product is designed to meet the need. Great specifications are a start. Then its up to preference. Its sort of like a car, its in the driving, not just the engine, or tires, or shocks, etc. etc.
Just my 2 cents.

gband and others: as an electronic engineer, you know that the sound from a linear amplifier SHOULD sound the same (just amplified) at 1W, 10W or 100W OR IT ISN'T A LINEAR AMPLIFIER!!!

If some of the receivers and pre/pros REALLY sound different, then we have problems with the different manufacturers specifications. Plain and simple, it just can't be.

I have also seen a number of articles of double blind tests where some noted audiophiles just could not tell the difference between a $400 reciver and something costing in the $1000s.

Go Figure.

Anyhow, I'm still eagerly awaiting the new amps.

I attempted to order a 7700 this evening but kept getting a server error after the last step of filling everything out. So either they aren't accepting orders for these yet or their website is having problems.

except that at 1W, 10W, and 100W our ears percieve sounds in different ways. Our perception of low and high frequency noise is much different at low volumes than at high volumes.

lanion: I was talking about the specific electronic performance of the amplifier.

I have not seen anything about hearing perception versus loudness. Could be that you are right. I don't know about that.

Wharf: when you get your new 770, please give us a series of reports about its operation and how you like it.

TIA.

Equal loudness curves:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/sound/eqloud.html

this is why some preamps have a 'loudness' button; so that it boost the bass levels and make it sound like it is supposed to.

lanion: thanks for the link. Those are some interesting charts. While I was referencing the linear amplifier being linear, I now suspect that each individual must also take into account his/ her hearing for optimal listening pleasure. Those with either very good or very bad hearing may want to take specific note. I think that those chart were probably a generalized ensemble of a group.

Great post.

ratpack, linearity also is not perfect and has errors. Power delivered is a function of impedance and a speakers load is NOT linear. Therefore the load the amplfier sees at 1W, 10W and 100W is different. Unfortunately it is also not purely resistive, it is reactive and has a direct impact on an amplifiers performance, particularly in the frequency response.
If everything were equal, loads were purely resistive, then yes it would be linear and we could all rest easy.
I am merely pointing out that specifications are done at a particular set of criteria, in the case of amplifiers full power out at an 8 ohm resistive load. Given a different set of criteria, the specifications would be different, and therefore probably sound different.

I was able to get the order placed tonight for a 7700. Turns out I was entering 1-866-xxx-xxxx in the field for the credit card number on back of the card. The leading "1-" is not required and causes the whole script to bomb out, not give a warning to fix it like it should do.

Regardless, the 7700 be on the way soon.

Ratpack, as others have testified, there is a rather large difference going from receiver to dedicated pre/pro. If you were to do an A/B comparison between the 990 and your Onkyo, I think you'd be shocked at the differences.

Differences between amps are rather minor, however, they are more evident between processors. But, sounds like you are happy with the Onkyo and that is great!!! Ignorance is bliss!!

Ratpack, as others have testified, there is a rather large difference going from receiver to dedicated pre/pro. If you were to do an A/B comparison between the 990 and your Onkyo, I think you'd be shocked at the differences.

Differences between amps are rather minor, however, they are more evident between processors. But, sounds like you are happy with the Onkyo and that is great!!! Ignorance is bliss!!

Note that photos of both of our new amps (7500 and 7700) are now posted in the products section. Enjoy!

All: I may eventually get a chance to compare the Onkyo to a pre/ pro of some type. Who knows what I will find out or decide. While I currently remain unconvinced, it ought to be fun to find out if there is a difference that I can hear.

gband: I appreciate your point on linear amplifier operation.

Warf: I was reading on the avs board some comments about a ATI amp that had high frequency hiss when it was turned off. It was returned for a second which also had the same issue. The owner contacted ATI again and they said that it was a function of the capacitors discharging. I would be interested in knowing if you observe this characteristic when you turn it off.

Hi All,

I have been reading the back and forths about if there is a difference sonically from a Pre-Pro to a receiver. I was able to A/B compare the same set of speakers through the Rotel 1067 receiver, versus their 1068 Pre/Pro. The receiver sounded great but the pre/pro was just a bit clearer with dialog and to me sounded more forward.

Several things to remember:

1. In reality you probably won't have a pre/pro and a receiver setup at home. So, if you are pleased with the sound of your receiver, great!

2. No two people are alike. What you hear may not be what I hear. I would encourage you to try the 990 (what the heck, it's risk free!) and see if your ears hear a difference.

I have been using HK receivers for years (currently have an HK AVR 435 and love it). But, since I was able to AB test some pre/pro vs receiver combos (Denon 5805 vs rotel 1098) and some others in the lower range, my curiousity has been perked. I plan on auditioning the 990 in the near future as the models mentioned above are out of my range.

In the end, it only matters what you think and what you like.