software upgrade and freeze

I just upgraded my 970 to the latest software. Now everytime I turn it on, it goes through the normal boot process and then freezes. No sound, I can't turn it off via remote and the front panel buttons have no effect.

If I push the power button on the back, then turn it back on it seems to work fine until I turn it off again... Any ideas?

I would reload the software and be sure to perform a complete reset.

I think I may have botched the front panel reset (yes the easiest portion, I know).

So I went through the whole process again, nailed the front panel reset. I'll post up again in the morning if I'm still having the issue.

I'm not sure the software update really fixes the problem. I have a unit that supposedly had the update when I purchased it, but I still experience 'freeze up' and no audio from time to time. Just had it happen last night...went to play a cd, powered 970 via remote...no sound, no audio control. I was able to power it off via the remote though. Turned it back on (via remote) and no change. I had to power it off using the back master switch then all was well. I think unfortunately this is something we'll have to live with as it doesn't appear the software update really fixed the problem. Wish I'd kept my 990.

Nope. Mine still freezes on boot up. It's not everytime, but often. I'll hit "Video 1" to turn the unit on and it goes through the normal boot process then displays "Video 1" as per normal, but no sound comes out and all the buttons on both the remote and the front panel are nonfunctional, including power. I had to pull the plug to power it off, then after that it powered up fine.

I'm wishing I'd bought a 990 to start with...

This is what warranties are for...

Lee,

I agree..however this was a problem that was supposedly corrected with the software update (which seems to mitigate the problem to a degree for some or eliminate it for others). I don't believe Outlaw has any other solution at this point...if there was one I'm sure we'd have seen something about it.

Hmm, I'm barely still under warranty and it seems this issue won't go away with another hardware device.

<...>

Openhelix,
I wouldn't go that far...I'm not happy that it doesn't perform flawlessly, but I'm not ready to just 'dump' mine. I think that Outlaw is trying to make it right, but I don't know if they will be able to; short of a recall to replace the chipset.

<...>

I'd love for there to be a recall. Not sure why one hasn't happened with all the buggy units that have been sold.

...or a trade in program for the 970. My 970 still has the no audio problem even with the latest firmware upgrade.
I am curious that Outlaw has a trade in program for the Emotiva LMC-1 but none for their own problem unit.
I hope they have a solution to the 970 no audio problem, I may have to reconsider getting another Outlaw for my next pre/pro.

I would have to agree it should be fixed. I've used a Denon 3803 receiver for 4 years now, it's used every single day, and it has NEVER had a lockup or any other issues such as I've read here about the 970. It too uses internal processors for performing its functions. While there are statements in the literature that one can expect occasional lockups, having the same issues over and over again is a problem inherent in the code or hardware of the system, and should definitely be fixed.

I opted for the model 990 after reading all the posts here about these 'issues' with the 970. I'm hoping I fare better with my choice.

I, one, am certain that the no audio bug will never be fixed, and this is a black eye for Outlaw, no matter what the real cause of the problem is.

Any hopes for 1070 were squashed by the announcement that it is discontinued and I expect 970 to follow soon.

Sometimes I wonder whether there is a "lemon law" for audio equipment...

I sent a PM to Scott, no answer yet. Looks like PM isn't the best method of communication. I'll try calling the Outlaws.

Given the current price on the 970, you would think it would be an excellent pre/pro for someone with a tight budget. Can you imagine how someone would feel if they ordered a combo with the 970 for the "benefit" of separates and runs into this bug? For many people I know that would be a showstopper. Especially if a "mass market" receiver does NOT have the issue as Lee Bailey has said, his receiver is used every day and with zero problems. (No insult meant to your receiver Lee).

The fact that the issue has gone on so long despite the excellent efforts to try and fix it is unfortunate and disappointing.

Hello openhelix,

I was out of the office yesterday, I apologize that I was unable to respond. Give me a call today as I will be in the office all day.

Thanks,

Scott

Openhelix,
What has stopped you from sending in your unit for repair?

No insult taken. My receiver is still working fine after reading your post to it.

What is strange to me is that the 990 and 970 share the same Cirrus Processor, yet the 990 does not seem to share the 970's issues.

<..>

...my post 6 months ago.........

http://ubb.outlawaudio.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/ubb/get_topic/f/37/t/000259/p/1.html#000033

What prevented you for sending your unit in for repair or replacement when the issue first surfaced? If it were me, I would not have put up with a failure of this nature for that amount of time. I have not used Outlaw for this function, but I have dealt with warranty support for many electronics items over the years and from what I see of other users postings, Outlaw is very responsive compared to other companies I have dealt with.

The issue of having to part with your electronics device during the repair or replacement is standard fare in the electronics industry, so while this is inconvenient, it is just something we deal with in order to get lower cost devices. If manufacturers had to send out replacements for what could potentially not be failures, we would all pay the price in the added mark ups needed to cover this service.

alpha, when I called originally I was told it was a sw problem and there was nothing they could do but they were working on a fix. The promised fix came in the latest patch, and seems to have resolved the issue for some. For me, it made the device unusable. I spoke with the Outlaws today and I know they're working on a resolution for me. I feel a bit better after talking with them on the phone than I did previously. I would definitely recommend that method over email/PM.

I feel pretty confident they'll work out something to make me a satisfied Outlaw customer. I'll be sure to post up then as well. I know you have to offer the good feedback in addition to the bad.

Glad to hear that the receiver is working after you read my post to it, Lee.

This has always puzzled me. As a programmer/engineer I would LOVE to look at the source code for the 2 units. Then look more at the errata about the Cirrus processor used in the processor and see what to make of it. I expect the Outlaws have been through that road many times, and nothing has come of it [despite their excellent attempts]. However, from my viewpoint, as an intellectual exercise it would be fascinating.
(Removes pointed ears now)

The 49400 is used in lots of different products, but the 990 and 970 have little else in common. The 970/1070 platform was developed from the ground up in partnership with Eastech (the company that does the actual manufacturing of the units), while the 990 was built on Etronics' P-965 platform and is manufactured by Etronics. Different hardware, different software, different manufacturers.

Agreed Gonk. It would require a LOT of time to diagnose WHAT the factor ( or worse ), combination of factors cause this ( "no audio") bug to occur. However, it would be of interest. ( I hate not solving a puzzle!)

I am another disappointed 970 owner, I bought mine this Summer and feel a little misled. If all of these issues were going on, why did they keep shipping out units that were buggy?? Mine has exactly the same symptoms everyone else has described, about 4 times out of 10 I turn it on. I have to think that trying to sell a 970 used would not bring much, so a trade-in program would definitely get my vote! It is strange that you can trade an Emotiva in but not a 970.

Hypothetically, and ONLY Hypothetically....

[Hmmmm....a trade in program for the 970. Perhaps something like 970 + $X=990? That would be an excellent method of clearing out remaining stock of 990 VERY quickly, just when the Outlaws announce when the next gen processors will be ready to go. As a Customer service move, it would be, frankly, a major victory over anyone's objections with the 970. However, it could also open up a can of worms legally, unless the deal was offered to any ORIGINAL owner of the 970, something that a small company like the Outlaws might not be able to swing. ]

End of Hypothetically and only Hypothetically.

Bob,
I would agree that your hypothetical scenario would be a customer service coup for the Outlaws, since frankly I don't see a market at all for a used 970. Since we're dealing with hypothetical scenarios, here's mine: The Outlaws offer a 'double down' deal for 970 owners...$400 toward their new processors next year. I don't know if they could afford to do that either, but it would be a way of stepping up and dealing with the problems that they know we are putting up with. End of my hypothetical rant.

og33,

Hypothetically, Wow. That would be indeed interesting, maybe as you say financially not a good thing, for the company, but interesting nonetheless. It would also tick off most people who went for the double down deal. ( since they only get 200 towards a new processor, regardless of which one they own ). Given this unfortunate situation (with the "no audio" bug), I don't see an answer that would be economically feasible/fair for all concerned. I wish I did. End of Hypothetically.

Does EVERY 970 owner experience these problems?

Personally from what I've read in the past from Mr. Tribeman, and the good customer experiences that others have had with him and his company, I figure since he was willing to help out Mr. Schifter@AV123 on offering the LMC-1 trade-in program that Outlaw will in-deed do the right thing and make good with their own customers and offer some kind of software fix, credit or trade-in offer.

I would prefer credit towards future pre-amp.

/dreaming

Are you thinking of a credit above and beyond the $200 credit already available ?

Sounds like a good time to offer a "double down" for us 970 owners, $ 400 would ease the pain.

Well, I'm still within my 30 day trial period, and I'm seriously considering upgrading to the 990. I've experienced the 'No Audio' bug about 4 times already, and I worry what the future holds. The only thing slowing me down is having to pay all the import/brokerage/tax on the new one too!

You *may* be able to not pay twice if you have the second labeled RMA replacement. The company I work for does this for our international customers on RMA and demo equipment to avoid "double" fees when appropriate.

Ahh! See that sounds better. Hopefully today I'll get a chance to give them a call. Thanks openhelix!

I've owned a 1070, 990 and now a 970. The no audio bug was present in both the 1070 and 970, but I never had one problem with the 990. It performed flawlessly for me the whole time I had it. If the 990's size isn't a problem in your setup (my issue) I'd go with it in a second over the 970. I've noticed the no audio bug strikes mostly after I've been using the 970 for HT duties. The next time I power it on it is frozen. It happens at least once a week in my case.
Outlaw knows this is a problem. I would think if it can be fixed they would do so...their silence seems to indicate (to me at least) that it can't be fixed.
I would like to remain a loyal Outlaw customer when the next generation of processors come out, but it really concerns me that there will be problematic issues like the no-audio bug we 970/1070 owners deal with now.

openhelix,
Have you had any resolution to your problem?

They came up with a solution that fits my requirements and I'd prefer to leave it at that.

Cryptic you are, very...hmm?

So, did you have enough room in your rack for the 990?

So vocal about the problem, so silent about the resolution...

Well I finally got my new 990 up and running today. So far everything has been flawless. I guess I was lucky that my 970 was still within 30 days of purchase. Overall I think the 990 is the better choice. The 970 I had did give me the no audio glich a handfull of times, and I was worried about what the future held for it.

I would have gotten the 990 as well but you can't adjust settings via a front display like with the 970.

That's an important feature for me as I prefer to route my video cables directly to my projector.

I'm surprised that the Outlaws have been quiet about this "No Audio" issue. I wonder if there is a firmware fix in the future seeing that this issue is definitely a problem for several 970 owners???

Interesting that there has been no reply from Outlaw on the 970 no audio/firmware problem. More so ironic was the trade-in offer for the now out of production Emotiva LMC-1 processor. Sure the LMC-1 had it's problems but at least they were finally addressed with a fix. Will Outlaw have a fix for the "no-audio" problem before its replacement comes out???

I have found that the problem occurs when you turn on the 970 before the source that is selected is powered on. If I always turn on my DVD player first and then the 970 I don't have a problem. Whenever I have had a problem the DVD player was not on first or in bootup.

Interesting dvenardos. I hadn't thought of that. I wonder if the outlaws will do some bug-huntin'?

My 970 is the opposite. If I turn on the source first, then the 970, it freezes. But turning the 970 on first and then the source works in my case. So much for consistency.

My 970 had exhibited the 'freeze' both when the source is turned on before the 970 and when the 970 is turned on prior to the source. I usually try to turn on the 970 first, as it seems it occurs less that way. Fortunately, it doesn't happen so much to me anymore, and I just deal with it when it happens. It's a pain but the sound quality is still worth it. As I mentioned before I don't think there will ever be a fix at this point.

I too am another disappointed 970 owner, I bought a 970/7075 combo in 2006. I did all the research and read all the reviews about the 970/7075 and came to the logical conclusion it has the best bang for your buck. Well its 2008, and I have to say boy was I wrong. The problems with this unit are staggering. I have experienced all the usual complaints with my unit as well. And misery loves company because all you have to do is read any number of posts in this forum to get the same sense of disappointment I have with the Outlaw 970. I will say that Outlaw does bend over backwards to help resolve any problems you have with their product, but in the end no matter how accommodating they are no resolution will make the unit perform any better than it does. My final stand (short of shelling out 300 more dollars for the 990) was to sell the 970/7075 on eBay, but after several listing and even sweetening the deal with AXIOM speakers (LCR+surrounds) nobody would buy it. So now I’m still an Outlaw, and I just take the quirks the 970 throws at me with a lesson learned. In the end, I hope that people read this and make the conclusion to NOT buy the 970 but spend the extra 300 and buy the 990. Then they can spend their Outlaw days as a happy consumer. Knowing they not only have the flagship unit but the best customer service any compnay can have.

Agreed 100%.

I bought the LFM 1-EX on sale, so I wouldn't have that I should have bought feeling, although, it appears that all the Outlaw subs are excellent products, just like their amps.

My first Outlaw purchase was the 7100 amp, which was the bottom of the line at the time, and I was totally blown away by the clean, powerful sound from that amp. I thought it would be the same with the 970, but, sad to say, it is not.

I contacted them suggesting that they give us 970 owners an at cost final run of the 990 when the new processor comes out, but didn't get anywhere with that. Of course, my biggest beef is the two-channel performance. I just purchased the wrong unit, that was my fault.

I've learned to live with my 970 and its "quirks" as well. Its really frustrating that I can just about 100% guaranty when I start it up that I'll get no audio and I'll have to get up and power it on and off manually (yes I've run the latest firmware update).

I was happy with my 950, but decided to upgrade to the 970 for extra component and DVI inputs. I'm trying to decide if I should sell off by 755 amp and 970 processor and pick up a Denon AVR-3808 or just wait and see how the new Outlaw processor works. Hopefully Outlaw will throw us long suffering 970 customers a bone when the processors come out to help ease our pain and struggles with this buggy unit.

I too, share all of your frustrations and disappointments with the 970. See my last posting on the subject "970/990 signal delay" in which I posted this:

“Thinking about this issue, I look back to my semi-conductor manufacturing equipment experience where there are inherit hardware bugs that are sometimes corrected by software tweaks. Although sometimes the software tweaks do correct the hardware bugs, many times they alleviate the problem, but do not 100% fix the problem. Rather than replace the faulty hardware because it is too costly, we would tweak the software until there was a happy median. The system hardware bugs would still sporadically occur, but very infrequently. If they did, we would have a work around embedded in the software.
I'm wondering, is this what is happening to the 970?”

There were no further responses.

I'm really disillusioned with Outlaw because after running the latest firmware update on my 970 for several months now, I concluded that it is actually worse than the previous firmware revision. The reason I say this, is before the July 2, 2007 firmware update, I did experience the “no audio” bug, which still occurs, but I did not experience the new “freeze on power up” bug. Which is even more annoying since the only way to “unfreeze” the 970 is to power off via rear power switch.

But my latest concern disappoints me even more and I have yet to see any postings. Several times when I have turned on either my Denon DVD player(Toslink) or Denon CD player(Coax) along with my Outlaw 970 the audio output sounded like a scratched recorded, very garbled. It seemed as though the 970 did not fully finish processing the signal of the source and outputted garbage. Either my 970 is getting worse or the new firmware update has introduced yet another bug.

I’m definitely contacting the guys at Outlaw, but I was wondering if any one else has encounter this problem?

LM,
I've never encountered that issue (and I hope I don't). Just the no audio/freeze issue primarily with me.

well...my 1070 still has issues...somewhat similar to the 970...
I've noticed the unit is very sensitive as far as the digital domain goes...never mind HDCP...unplugging the headphones if the unit is off...or the occasional transcoding video issues...a reboot always works....
and on the bright side...
my buddy who has an AVM 30...now updated to an AVM 50...( 1070&970 many times over cash wise)has similar problems since the upgrade...

finally...can we be so upset
testing a manufacturer's goods when they come out to market ?
we seem impatient enough for the latest technology...that famed new processor...the latest software...that new format...etc.
in that frame of mind...I believe we accept as a group to be guinea pigs...and when you get that deal...I believe we should accept as well...that there's no free lunch...

altough as a caterer...I could never see myself serving meals that were unfinished...buggy or just not right...yet I know plenty of establishements do....

Interesting point view, but Outlaw is not giving the 1070/970s away for free. Although their pricing is very competitive, just because we're getting a good deal doesn't mean we should accept being "guinea pigs." Besides these products have been on the market quite some time (over two years), and in my opinion should be bug free by now.

Many people select Outlaw as their first introductory high end audio systems because of the reviews and excellent pricing. Like many of the postings say, if many us would have known about the issues of the 970 we would have elected going with the 990 or some other brand processors. In my case, like many of us, I was on a tight budget and wanted more power so I went with the 970/7125 combination.

The 970 has a 2 year warranty. If it is not performing as advertised, I'd be calling for an RMA number for them to repair it. Since the silence from Outlaw has lasted for a long period, it sounds as if the "no-audio" problems are getting swept under the rug!!! That's too bad!!!

It really sounds like a response is needed here from Outlaw as potential customers also read this.

Outlaw has kindly addressed the issues with my 970 and I will be sending it in for analysis/repair. I’ll find out what the outcome is in a few weeks.

Well, I got my 970 back from Outlaw only a couple of weeks after I shipped it to them. The turn around time was fairly quick. Unfortunately, I haven't had too much time to thoroughly test my unit enough to know if the repairs fixed the problems I was having with my 970. Within the next few weeks I will be heavily using my AV system and I will have more detailed results.

My 950 does what you guys are talking about except it does it with 5.1 analog in bypass mode. Have to toggle thru the various inputs and select stereo and then go back to the 5.1 bypass in and it will work. Was thinking about an upgrade to the 970 since my 950 is 5-6 years old. No thanks to the same bugs. Better the devil you know...