OUTLAW, PLEASE FIX THE NO-AUDIO PROBLEM NOW!

I am now adding a "fix no-audio problem" button to my programmable remote in my home theatre which basically cycles power to the 970.

It is absolutely ridiculous that it has come to that. It is the audiophile equivalent of "jiggle the handle". And just like jiggling the handle, you are left looking at crap when it doesn't work.
Isn't this hurting Outlaw's reputation in any way?

I'm guessing that you're running the latest "beta" firmware and still having the problem? This is an issue that Outlaw's been working on a fix for since at least early this year, but it's apparently proven difficult to pinpoint because it is inconsistent and doesn't effect all users. If you can reproduce the bug with any sort of consistency, I bet that Scott would greatly appreciate a call.

Probably not. The 970 is relatively cheap for the quality sound you get. I have also suffered greatly from the no audio problem but the latest firmware has practically eliminated it. Only once, last night, did I have "no audio" problem. Was watching a show on the DVR, then switched to an hdtv cable channel and got no audio. Switched to another channel and back and heard audio. Go figure.

There's no question that this unit is buggy, but at this price, what are the alternatives?

If only I could get rid of this darn popping noise I hear when turning on the 970. :rolleyes:

Interesting. I never hear a popping noise, but of course my amp comes on a second after the 970.

But I've been running the beta sofware now for a while and still get the lost audio issue several times a week. Sounds like I'm not alone, from what I read from other users here, and my correspondance with tech support.

What keeps me from using something else? The poster above got it right, the only alternatives are significantly more expensive, and don't include HDMI 1.1 with full audio capability -- which is a definite requirement for my next controller.

Did you restore your factory defualt settings after the firmware update? I experienced similar problems, and according to Steve, the update may not take full effect unless you also restore the defaults.

In the past, my experience with this problem was just as an intermittent nuisance issue; that is until the time I was running calibration test tones and massive feedback struck my right front speaker, which smoked the tweeter and damaged the woofer. According to Steve, that too was a phenomenon related to the "no audio" problem.

Since that horrible day, I restored the factory defaults. I still experience the problem -- but rarely -- and usually only when I'm channel surfing cable TV. I've noticed the problem when the processor switches from a Pro Logic mode to Dolby digital. It seems the processor is momentarily confused when it sense a change to the incoming digital signal.

Anyway, like you I'm willing to suffer a few bugs due the the unit's otherwise excellent performance, flexibility and price point.

I had the no audio problem on 4 occassions so far and I just got the 970 last week. I will be making a call to Outlaw in the next few days. I asked about the current software when I ordered it and they told me that it came with the latest update. So, I assume that the latest update does not fix the problem. So far, aside from this glitch, I love the 970, very easy to use and set-up for a novice. I hate to think that after the months of researching my home theater set-up, that I may send this thing back.

Call Outlaw, and see what they suggest. If the problems continue, maybe they'd be willing to exchange the unit and you can give the 970 another chance. Their customer support is excellent.

That said, I have noticed in my years in this hobby that performance and reliability of good gear is often inversely proportional. The comsumer should certainly have a resonable expectation that the equipment they buy will preform flawlessly right out of the box and for an extended lifetime. And the manufacturer should see to it that it is built accordingly.

But as you go up the ladder performance-wise, I have noticed the care and feeding of your audio/video system goes way up and the gear is often finicky. I look back on the days of the Mapleknoll and Versa Dynamics turntables -- yeah, they sounded great, when they worked -- which was about 50% of the time.

I digress a bit, but let's face it, the average system of members on this board far surpasses the home theater-in-a-box from Circuit City. Friends / family who have heard my system are blown away, but they run screaming when they see all of the equipment and wiring that goes along with it.

Lord knows what they'll think when I finally get an SMS-1.

My question is I bought a 970 early october my firmware starts with a 1070 the web page current firmware for the 970 starts with a 970. Why would they ship a new 970 with bad firmware or better yet wrong firmware? Can anybody please check there firmware that has bought in the last couple months and see if you have simaler firmware issues.

Yes, I have the latest firmware and confirmed the release number following the steps in the owner's manual. I also went as far as upgrading the firmware in my Oppo DV-970HD DVD player, since the no-audio problem got more frequent after I added that unit.

I don't particularly buy the "good enough for the price" argument and I don't think that's Outlaw's strategy (God, I hope not). The $250 Technics SH-AC5000D digital processor I had before I bought the Outlaw 970 was "good enough for the price". I hope Outlaw wants to be just as good as the more expensive units (just not as pretty) and not like the $250 units. That, I'm OK with. If I "got what I paid for" then now I wish I would have paid more.

I have done much to improve the acceptability of my system. I invested in one of those expensive universal, internet programmable remotes where my wife and kids just push the "watch a movie" button and everything happens. Everything, except for the 970 putting out any sound. My system might as well be sitting on milk crates and wire-hanger-rabbit-ears poking from behind everything, because I now have turned into my dad who I remember having to smack the TV, twist the channel knob, or the rabbit ears in order to get the thing to work.

Does the 990 suffer from the same condition?

da88: Outlaw's return policy lasts 30 days. I checked. I wasted a few weeks waiting for my home theatre to be built, so the 30 days passed in my case. My credit card company gives me 6 months consummer potection on any defective product, though. So I might go that route.

The 990 does not suffer from the no audio bug, because it is a completely different platform. Like you, Outlaw does not take the "good enough for the price" approach to supporting their products - my understanding of this issue is that it has been a significant challenge to isolate and resolve, but that they have not simply given up on it. That's why I suggested calling them: an additional input from users who are experiencing it is likely to help further isolate the problem.

Hello Videodrome. I have seen your very insightful posts in other threads. Thanks for your suggestions. I completely agree that Outlaws are some savvy users.

That being said, I hope that nobody infers from those comments that it takes some higher degree of technical know-how to own and operate Outlaw gear or that you have to deal with the no-sound issue as a badge of geekdom honor.

I am a computer scientist/systems analyst for a DOD contractor but even we get tired now and then and want to take a break from having to hack everything.

So please, I know everyone means well. Heck, I like Outlaw gear (my 7125 is not going anywhere). But I can't tell my wife that "honey, you are just not smart enough" or "it doesn't work all the time, but that's good for the money".

My system:
Samsung SP-P4231 42” plasma display
Oppo DV-970HD Universal DVD Player
RCA DTC210 HDTV Tuner
Outlaw 970 preamplifier/processor
Carver m1.5t amplifier
Outlaw 7125 amplifier
Monster Power Center HTS3500 MKII
Polk Audio RTA-12C vintage speakers (1 pair)
Polk Audio CSI-5 center speaker
Polk Audio RC85i surrounds (4)
Sunfire True Subwoofer MK IV

Not to insight a riot but more importantly just an observation. Looking at your equipment list I notice you have direct tv HD box. I really think that is your problem. I have a DTV hr10-250 and it has magor issues. I'm running the new firmware and yet i get no audio, hiss and pops all the time. It has alot to do with the source going from HD channels to regular channels, or switching source from say a dvd to watch tv. I have been wrestling with this issue from day 1.
I hope this helps I know how fustrating it can be spending big money (700 bucks is a 2 week salary for some) and not having said equipment work flawlessly.

I still have the no audio as well. The software has helped but I still get it several times a week. I also get a distorted signal periodically.
Frustrating!

Thanks iadfilm, I too suspected that the HDTV tuner was part of the problem. I noticed that if I unplugged the S/PDIF connector on the preamp side, there was always a signal (light) being sent from the tuner even in standby.
However, I ruled that out weeks ago when I removed the HDTV tuner entirely out of the equation. I simplified my system to the Oppo->Outlaw970->CARVER m1.5t->One pair of speakers. I experienced the no-sound problem the very first time I turned the system on and tried to play a music CD. As a matter of fact, even the remote went wacky and wouldn't respond. To verify the problem was not the Oppo, I replaced the 970 with a CARVER C-1 preamplifier from my other system and everything worked flawlessly.
I also tried turning polling off and that had no effect whatsoever.
So yeah, I do think the HDTV tuner fits the profile of problematic sources but I don't think is the smoking gun.

BTW, I almost exclusively experience the no-audio problem when the 970 is coming off standby, not when changing sources or channels. It's really a problem when my kids want to watch a movie and press the "watch a movie" button on the remote and no sound comes out. In my HT setup, turning on the 970 triggers two amplifiers and a subwoofer to power up after a 1 second delay. Needless to say, cycling power to the 970 via the "fix no audio" button I programmed in the remote is really exercising my gear. Worse yet, the kids and the wife have gotten trigger happy pressing the button and tend to jump the gun even while the Oppo screensaver is showing the "loading" icon. In other words, they are not Outlaws like us.
I was hoping my days of having to train the family on how to use the gear were over...

garcianc2003:

No, I did not mean to imply that the 970 is an esoteric piece of gear. Far from it. I guess what I was trying to convey in my rambling post, is that I've become somewhat inured to bug issues simply because I have owned equipment over the years that has tended to be more fickle and less set-and-forget. Granted, the 970 is not in that camp. It was designed as a set-and-forget piece and should perform as such.

Sorry if the other post came off negative or haranguing, as that was not my intent.

No sweat Videodrome, I know you as a fair and stand-up guy from your other posts. I just didn't want anybody else to get the wrong impression.
I am dealing with tech-support as you suggested.
Thanks.

[dreaming]

Is there any chance Outlaw will allow those of us who are still suffering from the "No Audio" bug (and others) to trade in the 970 for the 990. For a fee of course, but not the difference.

[/dreaming]

That would be very tempting.

I just bought my 970 znd I would trade my 970 for a 990 in a heartbeat. For a small price of course 100 bucks + shipping

I also have the no audio problem even after the software upgrade. It only happens when power up the 970 from standby.

I contacted Outlaw and this is the last email I got from Outlaw on September 13, 2006 regarding the no audio issue:

"We are committed to resolving this issue, however I do not know exactly when our engineers will have the next revision ready. We will have an announcement as soon as we post the update.
Please let me know if you have any further questions or concerns.
Best Regards,
Steve"


It's been frustrating...

unl1983, that response sounds very familiar.

I have had 5 no-audio incidents in the last 3 days. Considering that there is still beta firmware out there since May, I can't help but feel like all Outlaw 970 owners are nothing but beta testers. Before anybody says "woah, not me" and that they don't have the no-audio problem, qualify that with "today", because tomorrow when you change something, you may be one of us.

Who knows if the no-audio issue is something that can be resolved via a firmware update (I hope so). I can't help but fear that one of these days the no-audio issue may become a permanent condition and I would become the proud owner of a black plastic brick.

I get the no audio problem at least 50% of the time when I turn on the pre amp. I have installed the beta firmware and restored to factory settings as well. It's really a joke that its taking them this long to get it fixed. I mean the last update was in May and its almost November. What takes so long???

Typically I'm powering it up with a DirecTV R15 DVR unit via optical digital output, but it also happens when I power up with the Xbox 360 as well. I've even tried powering up with the radio tuner and it is sitll plagued by the no audio problem. The only solution thus far has been to walk up to the unit and turn it off, wait a few seconds, and then turn it back on.

If they can't get it to work properly, then they need to make some sort of recall on the units and replace it with something that does work.

In all fairness to Outlaw Audio, the no-audio issue has plagged other manufacturers like Lexicon and yes, even Sunfire. However, that was generations of their products ago. Lexicon has a 3-year manufacturer's warranty, and Sunfire has an impressive support program. For instance, the Sunfire Theatre Grand II suffered from "audio drop outs", as they called them, years ago which I believe were fixed by a hardware upgrade (eeprom chip). The TG3s were fixed via firmware upgrade and Sunfire went as far as offering "hardware upgrades" to turn TG3s into essentially TG4s in a TG3 box. Sunfire is now in generation 5 of that platform and yet, if you are a TG1, 2, 3 or 4 owner, you can still trade yours in for a TG5... Sometimes paying more is cheaper...

I don't mean to tell Outlaw Audio how to run their business but, despite my rantings, I think the 970 and 990 are priced way too low for what they offer. They could each stand a $200 price hike (sorry everyone). Now let's say Outlaw offered a trade-up to a 990 from a 970 for a $400 credit, most of us would seriously think about it. If you consider that you just hiked the price by a combined $400, you are still making the same profit as before AND keeping your customers loyal. As a customer, even if you know that you are really paying for a deposit on your trade-up value, don't you think that's a fair price for a trade-up guarantee?

I don't mean to put you on the spot but can you give examples as to why you feel, at least for the 970, it could be priced $200 higher?

Thanks.

The 970 and 990 would probably still sell with a $200 higher price, but Outlaw has gotten where they are by being fairly aggressive on their pricing. The Model 950 was $900 when it came out (and fell to $800 and eventually even $700 before being discontinued), even though clones of it were selling through dealer networks with MSRP's of $1500+. Raising their prices might help some buyers perceive a higher value, but the prices they are at have led to many people who wouldn't otherwise have gotten into separates (or who would have used receivers as pre/pros) to take the plunge.

Outlaw hasn't pursued trade-in programs in the past. Instead, one point that they've made in the past is that their equipment holds its value well on the used market (thanks to the transferrable warranty, reputation, and at least in part to the original pricing). If you bought a Model 950 in 2003 for $800 or $900, you could have sold it on Audiogon in 2005 for $500+ and only had to pull $600 or so out of your pocket to buy a new 990.

Gonk, I'm not sure if you were replying to my post but I'm more interested in what features/hardware the 970 has that might make it worth $200 more.

I was replying to garcianc2003's post, actually. I can't identify any specific features or components that would be a justification for a higher price. For the 990, one might be able to make the case that adding the DVI switching and balanced outputs would justify a higher price than the P-965 on which it was built, even though the 990's price is $400 less than the 965's list price, but it's that $400 savings that has helped the 990 sell as many units as it has - raising the price would probably cost Outlaw some sales.

iardon, my $200 is just a SWAG to illustrate a point based on lately contemplating replacing my 970 with a Sunfire TG5 (around $3K) or an Aragon Stage One (also around $3K). They both have more features than the 970, but I think the 970 would still be an attractive alternative at just under $1K and the 990 at $1.5K.

One strategy could be to repackage both of those units under a different product line for sale at brick-and-mortar high-end stores (not Circuit City please) where they could go head to head with the pricier competition. That would have the advantage of sparing the internet customers from the new pricing scheme and offering their product to a whole new audience of discerning consumers who don't necessarily know or want to buy direct online. If you want to be a giant killer, you do need to run into giants every now and then.

Why do I feel like Robert Cringely all of a sudden?

I should add that I DO NOT want to pay more. I just think that the difference in price should not be attributed to the ownership experience or quality of the product.

Had another episode recently with the no audio problem...

While watching TV, the dreaded feedback noise struck my left speaker. Fortunately, the volume was down and I powered off quickly, so no damage was done (as happened with my right speaker a few weeks ago.)

I love the 970, but this is getting old. If this happens again and I blow another driver, I may consider another SSP.

I have the 1070 since they were first sold and have had a few of the no audio incidents. But a couple of weeks ago I turned on my 1070 and an extremely loud buzz came out of my speakers. Luckily I immediately turned off the power to the reciever and fortuately didn't damage my speakers. What the hell was that?

That's certainly out of the ordinary. I'd tend to suspect interference or a power problem of some sort, but I'd just be taking a shot in the dark. It hasn't recurred, I hope?

Ranger1000:

This is EXACTLY what happended to me that blew my right speaker a few weeks ago. I got another low-grade dose of it again yesterday when I fired up a DVD.

Fortunately, the past two episodes have been at low volume, so no damage done, but it is quite worrisome.

I was experiencing a loud buzz only when I turn on my amp before the 970. It lasted only a second, but sounded like it could damage my speakers so I now turn on my amp after the 970. Still get a jolt to my subs though.

How long does your loud buzz last?

Could your loud buzz be the power supply discharging the last of its stored power in the absence of an input signal? I've used my Panamax to turn my amps on after my processor and to turn them off at the same time as my processor for many years now, so my case may be different - just theorizing a bit...

I have a 1070 and incur the no-audio problem at least 50% of the time when powering up. It sometimes also happens when changing source material.

I also have the popping sound come from my speakers during what I'll call "power-warm-up". I've noticed that this happens when my unit has been turned off for a period and cooled down completely and then turned on cold. The popping noise lasts about 3 seconds and can be very loud and I imagine, damaging to my speakers. It seems to me that the popping noise is the 1070's amp attempting to reproduce a signal when it's not fully "powered-up".

How would I know if my speakers are damaged? What are the telltale signs?

iardon:

In my particular case, the telltale sign was smoke coming from my tweeter followed by no sound! (I'm not BS-ing you). The woofer damage was more subtle, but created a buzzing sound on certain bass frequencies. When I removed the woofer, I also noticed the cone would grate in places on the spider when you pushed on the driver. I think it must have melted part of the voice coil or something.

For less dramatic damage, listen closely to the tweeter(make sure the volume isn't too loud so you don't damage your hearing) and listen for any crackle or frying egg sounds. It's likely any damage caused by the feedback problem will take out the tweeter or midrange (if you have one) first before damaging the woofer. If you do try the push test (feeling for grating) on the woofer, make sure the music and/or power is off -- you don't want to push on a cone during playback. Also just push in on the driver carefully and shallowly, if the voice coil is in good shape, you should feel a smooth excursion on the driver as it moves back and forth.

Wow, haven't noticed smoke but I do hear what I would call noise (distortion) coming from my tweeters. I know that M&K are known for being accurate but I do wonder if the 970 with its popping/buzzing... you name it, may have damaged my tweeters.

Is it something you've only noticed recently? If you've only just started hearing things that are obviously amusical or laden with distortion since the buzz hit you, you may have a problem.

I would try several different sources with CDs / demos you're very familiar with just to rule out any normal audible hiss, noisy capacitors from older electronics, etc. Bear in mind, with your ear right against the speaker, the 970 and/or your electronics may generate a faint hiss at idle.

Also, when the buzz hit your speakers, how loud was it?

What smoked my tweeter was when the feedback hit during a test tone sweep in speaker calibration mode. This caused the buzz to be startingly loud and thus powerful enough to damage the voice coils.

No, I noticed the distortion from my tweeters for a while now. If it's related to the 970 or not, who knows. They were purchased at the same time so I guess I'll have to do some testing but from what you just wrote, it appears that other things could cause distortion and it's quite possible the 970 isn't doing it. Or did any damage, but with the occasional popping/buzzing I do worry.

The distortion usually happens when someone is screaming in a movie. It's quite embarrassing actually, but since it doesn't happen all the time, I don't know what is exactly the cause. Ruined tweeters, bad soundtrack.

The popping sound, on power up, is quite loud but is always the same level and doesn't change if my volume control is at a different point.

Thanks for the info.

Not sure how efficient your M&Ks are, but if they're power hungry and the distortion is only coming from peak volume swings like the screaming you described, it could be distortion that resulted from driving the 7100 into clipping.

Once the waveform "clips" it generates high frequency harmonics that we hear as a brightness or harshness that is abrasive or downright painful to listen to. These harmonics also deliver a lot of power to the drivers which can cause them to blow. Like happend to me!

As to the pop, not sure what that could be. Are you powering up your amp before or after the 970?

I doubt it's clipping since it happens on moderate volumes as well.

If I power up the 970 first, there is no popping. But this is my second 970 (returned first), and never had popping when my amp was on before the 970, with my first 970.

There seems to be an incosistancy with the quality of the units Outlaw is selling. I've noticed different issues between my two 970's.

Iardon,

This could be off in left field, but let me play this out. You said earlier that the "clipping" you're hearing is only happens when somebody is screaming in a movie. Are there any particular scenes in a particular movie that this happens in? If so, does the "clipping" happen everytime this scene is replayed?

I say this for this reason. One is that if you know where to look, maybe somebody else can watch the same movie on their set up and see if they have any "clipping" at the same point. It's truly possible that you're actually hearing distortion from either the microphones used in the scene or it's on the medium the soundtrack was recorded on. Your M&K speakers are known as very revealing and detailed speakers. It's possible you're hearing a mistake in the recording rather than a fault in the equipment.

If you had said that you heard "clipping" during explosions and loud scenes then it might point to the amplifier. But saying it happens when there is screaming makes me question the source.

Just thinking out loud...

Amplifiers should always only be engaged after the preamp is stabilized. Twenty year ago I blew a set of speakers powering both at the same time.

My current caver amp mutes for about 10 sec after power on and my monster power center holds back amp power for another 10 sec after the 970 signals it to turn on the amp. I never get any start up pops!

Watch out for clipping it destroys speakers.

But when is the firmware comming out of Beta it is better but still clunky

I recommend the movie "Scream."

Just kidding, Jason J has a good point and it would be interesting to try different demos and see if one or two movies are the culprits.

I recall in my retail days, a customer thought they had either a bad speaker or a bad CD. So they brought the CD to the store and we played it on our reference system (the CD was "Nojima Plays Liszt"). Turns out the equipment was not defective, but instead, so revealing of the source material, you could hear where the mic picked up the impact sounds of Nojima's finger nails striking the keys.

Lastly, regarding the pop, it's not unusual to hear a power-on noise if the preamp is turned on or off when the amp is on. Case in point, my amps and electronics are plugged into two Adcom ACE-515 AC enhancers that delay powering-up the amp sockets after the "accessories" sockets to prevent turn on thump. They cycle off in reverse order.

Next time I think about it, I'll try powering the 970 on and off with the amps on to see if I can duplicate the noise you're getting.

I am just catching up here after spending the day in meetings, but as I read through it I had the same thoughts as Jason - specifically because I've heard instances of clipping, static, distortion, and other audio artifacts before that were inherent to the recording and appeared at any volume. Having a better than average sound system actually makes these artifacts worse because they become more noticeable as the signal path becomes more transparent. I've rarely encountered it on DVD's, but I've noticed it any number of times on TV.

I haven't had the problem since the first ocurence. It was strange since it was an extremely loud bzzzz sound that kept going until I powered off the 1070. I use separate amps for the front and center speakers and have everything powered up automatically with a Harmony 880 remote. I wonder if it somehow had to do with how the amps came up when everything was powered up.