New pre/pro around the corner - 970?

Check out the following link:
http://www.avrev.com/equip/top_100_of_2005/

They mention an Outlaw 970 ( which they rank
above the Denon 4806! ) in the top 100 products
of 2005...

Is there a new pre/pro around the corner?

P.S. I posted this here since there is no
970 forum...

This certainly is a hot topic this weekend. Tonygeno seems to have originally spotted it and posted in an AVS thread. The most likely scenario is that they're pulling the amps out of the 1070, which would give them about the only price competitor on the market for AV123's LMC-1. Of course, it's all just speculation at the moment...

Gonk it is funny you should mention the LMC-1 because I was going to post and ask if anyone had read or heard much about this "soon" to be released product. AT $699 alone or
$998 for the combo with their 125 wattx6 amp this would almost seem to good to be true. The other Emotive amp the MPS-1 I believe it is,has gotten some very good reviews. It will be intresting to see if AV-123s budget combo has the goods sound wise.

I've been watching the beta for the last five or six weeks. The LMC-1 processor has hit some snags during beta testing - fixes are reported to be in the works, but time will tell how well they work out. The amp may prove to be more appealing to some than the processor (built overseas, which is probably why it is listed for only $600 for 125Wx6) but it appears to be pretty far removed from the $2000 MPS-1. The processor has a very minimal feature set for a modern processor (the old 950 had more robust bass management and a better remote, for example).

I did notice the lack of variable crossover points but other than that the feature set seemed to me like it would meet the needs for most who would be looking in the under$1000 price range. That being said though the lack of crossover points sure could make it hard to optimize its performance with a large variety of speakers.

It will be interesting to see what the LMC-1 ends up being. It is well over a year late, and as Gonk mentions, still being sorted out. One would have thought it would be ready, but they seem to have had problems with the video and the menu system.

You have to believe it will sound good, but based on the information that is available, it is terribly under-featured for the price: no lip-sync delay, little or no bass management, no software upgradeability, fewer input/output choices than most receivers, and it appears to be based on the older, CS 49326 DSP chip. (Though, in fairness, no one has officially confirmed if the DSP is the '326 or a '400.)

The other thing I've always found peculiar is the choice of a 6x125 configuration for the UL amp. It's also configurable to 5x125 + 2x50. Fine, and undoubtedly a great amp, but given the general feeling these days that "equal power across all channels" is the way to go, it's an odd animal when used in 7.1 systems.

I thought it was pretty well determined that the DSP was the 49326 and that there was no way to step up to the 49400 - that was the reason that internal lipsync adjustment had been ruled out, and it explains some of the other features that are so reminscient of the Model 950 (a 49326-based unit with similar speaker distance adjustment options as the LMC-1).

The whole concept behind the LMC-1 is sort of an extreme version of the 950's concept four years ago: uber-affordable with good sound quality a priority over features. It must hit the sound quality nail on the head - the feature set is going to be a marketing challenge (bass management is not even as sophisticated as Outlaw's Model 1050 receiver was back in 2000, and in some ways a used 950 would give you more capabilities).

I am still not sure other than the bass managment what the LMC-1 is missing that I would like to see it have. I find the inputs to be more then I would ever use and the hdmi and dvi thing is a non factor for me because my tv has two hdmi three component and two RGB hookups. I have to run everything to my tv because the wife hates to have to turn on the receiver to watch tv. Other than the bass managment the features seem to me to match up to alot of the Adcom,Rotel and the likes preamps that still sell for over a $1000.

THe problem for me with the LMC-1 isn't what it has, but what it doesn't have, and it's more than no bass management (though if you don't have speakers that match, that's a potential problem all by itself.

In addition to the lack of bass management, I am in the same boat as probably many others in needed some way to delay to audio for sync to picture. Between digital cable, TiVo and delay caused internally in my HD set by scaling, I get quite a bit delay. Unfortunately, it varies from source to source. That is where the need for lip-sync delay comes in handy. Outlaw has it in the 990 and 1070; the LMC-1 doesn't.

I also am troubled by the lack of ability to upgrade the software. The 950 didn't have that and it was a pain to replace the chips. I guess the Outlaws saw the light and added an RS-232 port to both the 990 and 1070. The LMC-1 doesn't have that either.

At the end of the day it's a toss-up, as I suspect they will both sound good, but the extra features of the Outlaw stuff tip the scales for me. I wonder if there is a 970, and what it will have.

Until the LMC-1 is finished and a manual made available, it's hard to say for sure. It has some valuable features - PLIIx processing, transcoding of video from s-video/ composite to component (assuming the video switching gets fixed), second zone with a little 25Wx2 amp - but curiously it has some of the same design omissions that the 950 caught a great deal of grief for back in early 2002 (no software upgrade support/RS-232 and no discrete speaker distance settings) as well as the lack of bass management and some question as to how/if stereo analog bypass is included. Does that mean that it's not worthy of consideration? Nope - but if a unit based on the 1070 (which is what started this discussion a few posts back) that were priced several hundred dollars under a grand would add some interesting spice to the (currently non-existent) +/-$500 new SSP market that the LMC-1 would otherwise have to itself once it comes to market.

Not to split hairs, but the original promise date of the LMC-1 was in March of this year. So its still 4 months short of being a year late, let alone "well over a year."

I am also interested in this processor. The lack of features doesn't really bother me, except the one that nobody except me really cares about I think. I love the 990's ability to change the input name. Very useful. Would've liked that on the LMC-1. Seeing the 1070 without amps would be really cool too.

Actually, Jed, the editable input names is perhaps my wife's favorite feature on the 990 (one of mine, too) - it's a great touch.

PodBoy may have been thinking of when the pre-order list opened for the LMC-1. I was thinking it had once been targeted for a January release, but that may have been the target for starting beta testing.

Correct as usual, Gonkster. I am referring to when the LMC-1 reservation list was started.

I checked AVS and some members are discussing
an unannounced processor from Outlaw that
would be be on par with the Anthem AVM30 and
would run around $2,000.

That is something I personally would be very
interested in - any truth to the rumour?

According to the Newsletter posted in Announcements, it seems to be a rumour no longer!

"On a par with the Anthem"? Hmmm, that's a tough question, but then again, it's $699!

I don't believe this is the processor they
were talking about :-)

Interesting nevertheless...

I think they were theorizing as to what the 970 might be - with both the 990 and 970 in the line-up, I doubt there will be a third model.

Just for reference, this was posted by Mark Schifter on 10-13-04, the day the UL was announced.
So if the LMC-1 would have been released in March, as promised originally, you would claim it was 5 months late since the preorders started in October? Interesting. Not saying you are wrong, I just never thought of it like that.

As far as the the new 970 goes, this is really an exciting product. That is a whole lot of love for $699. This may find its way into my parents HT.

gonk, I believe you probably right...

How about 995? They could put what appears to be a superior tuner in the rr2150, the rr2150 motorized volume control from the rr2150, more dvi input(s), audiophile cap/resistor upgrades on the stereo channels, EQ functionality, and a (cheap?) second dac so we can use digital sources on the zone 2 preamp.

And a partridge in a pair tree too please.

Rob

They'd probably hold off on something like that until the HD disc format war kicks off next year so they could include more complete support for those formats (two or more HDMI inputs, in other words - I'd vote for at least three and possibly four). It would also give them time to find an EQ solution that they like.

I believe you need 1.2 HDMI to digitally
transport the new audio formats...

I am going to use a separate video processor -
its the audio processing I am more interested
in - and yes, I won't be buying a processor
until it can either decode the new audio
formats or receive over HDMI 1.2 ...


I doubt there will be much of a war - its
Blue Ray all the Way - HD-DVD doesn't have
a snowballs chance in hell of winning - I am
really doubt that they will even come to market.

I hope that you are right about Blu-Ray. I would prefer that to be the "winner". I have $400 worth of Sony points burning a hole in my pocket!

As I said in another thread I think that the 970 is a nice stop gap piece of equipment until HDMI is sorted out. I really don't expect that type of availability in the Outlaw products for about 3 years.

I thought that HDMI 1.1 was needed for backward compatibility with a standard DD or DTS track. I thought that 1.3 would be necessary for the newer versions of DD and DTS in 7 channell uncompressed audio.

Regards,

Charlie

HDMI 1.1 and 1.2 will pass multichannel PCM; neither will pass a bitstream of DD+, DTS-HD, or Dolby TrueHD (that's reserved for HDMI 1.3 based on some Dolby literature I've seen). The only difference I've found between HDMI 1.1 and 1.2 is that 1.2 adds support for SACD (1.1 already supported DVD-Audio).

I thought that I had read that most of the new hd-dvd and blu-ray players will decode the dd+ and dts-hd internally and will be able to pass the signal on via the toslink and coaxial output to the digital inputs on existing receivers and preamps for amplification. Was I mistaken or is this going to be possible.

All HD-DVD and Blu-ray players will have to decode DD+, DTS-HD, and Dolby TrueHD internally as long as HDMI 1.3 available (and they'll probably need to decode internally for a long time afterward, since it will take years for HDMI 1.3 at the processor/receiver level to spread through the user base). Most or all players will also convert the PCM output of those decoders to analog. The obvious (and possibly) only exception to the "analog audio output" rule is Sony's PS3, which will output DD and DTS across optical digital and will presumably output 7.1 PCM across HDMI; dedicated Blu-ray and HD-DVD players will need to offer the analog output for the first generation or two to support the huge userbase of non-HDMI receivers and processors.

I think that you are a little mistaken. The player will be able to decode them and send them out over 7.1 channel analog outputs. Over a standard Toslink or Coax you will get a stadard DTS or DD track (compressed audio). If you want the full benefits of the new formats you will need 7.1 channel analog input or HDMI v1.3.

So if you are only ever going to have one 7.1 source than any of the new products today should fit the bill.

Regards,

Charlie

- That is how I know it. Please correct me if I am wrong.-

Thanks for the info guys I think I understand a little better now how the new audio formats will be used by current products. Gonk it is intresting that you brought up the ps3 since I am wondering if Sony has maybe bit off more than they can chew with the inclusion of the Blu-Ray in this system. I thought that the stand alone Blu-Ray players were supposed to be out by now but since they are not I suspect that they will be released after the CES show in January which will put them in stores in Febuary. Now I have heard starting price points of around $1000 for these units so what are the odds that Sony will be able to include this technology along with the hardware for a next gen game console for under $700 or $800. It would seem to me that they will either have to push back the launch till after next christmas or price the thing out of most peoples budget. Either way Microsoft is poised to take a big part of Sonys marketshare.

There's been no slip in Sony's schedule. Blu-way was never due to launch until next year (probably around mid-year, about the same time the PS3 is approximately scheduled to launch). HD-DVD was due to launch late this year (November was what I was expecting) to hit the holiday shopping season, but a lack of studio support was at least part of the reason that Toshiba pushed it off into 2006.

Both formats will likely have players selling for right around the $1000 mark by the time summer 2006 is here, while Sony is going to presumably try to get around the $400 or $500 mark with the PS3. Dedicated players will include DAC's that the PS3 will not have, much more robust chassis (they better for $1000), and will be made in much smaller volume. The PS3 will have a big honking processor, RAM, bluetooth, and a hard drive tucked into a fairly inexpensive chassis. Both will have some sort of transport capable of handling Blu-ray, DVD, and CD media. Standalone players will also be sold for a profit, while game consoles typically sell in much larger volumes for no profit or even a loss. I'm keeping an eye on the PS3, since I think it's going to have a pretty prominent role in the format war (which I think is probably going to go Blu-ray's way).

I would have to say that SONY is in a unique position to include Blu_ray in the PS3 because they make the Blu-Ray players. What will cost the consumer $1,000 will cost SONY internally much less. Also all the PS3 needs is the drive itself. They already have budgeted for the other internal components for the PS3 (Power Supply , Processors, etc). The stand alone Blu-Ray players have to include much more than just the drive to be functional. They will need an AV processing chip to decode DD+ and DTS+ (plus the other formats). I'll bet that this cost is a significant part of the cost of stand alone Blu-Ray players.


Regards,


PS- This is why Microsoft could not include HD-DVD in the launch of XBox360. They have no control over what Toshiba does with it and they couldn't be guarenteed a time line. Plus Microsoft will have to pay more than internal cost for the products. Although it appears that Toshiba would have done themselves a favor by giving the drives to Microsoft for the XBox 360.

Regards,

Charlie

Thanks for the insight Gonk. I know that I got off a little off the 970 topic sorry guys. Speaking of which I need get off here now and figure out how to talk my wife into letting me spend another $700 at christmas so that I can order a 970 tommorow. Thanks again for helping to inform me a little more on the new hd dvd formats.

I believe Gonk is right with 1.3 HDMI and yes
you could use the Analog outs of the Blue Ray
DVD player...

Note that an AVS member released the Blu Ray
scoop earlier today on AVS Forum:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=612977