Current HDTV and DVI fears

I think that this subject has been broached a few times in the past but with the current push for this DVI encrypted HDTV connector standard on newer HDTV models I am beginning to worry that we "early" adopters may very well be left out in the cold. To galvanize my concerns I have recently seen a picture of a final prototype of Dish Networks new PVR 921 HD reciever and it from what I see and read of it's specs, there are NO component outputs and in place of them is a DVI connection. I have also heard that both Dish Network and DirecTV have the capability when asked to by Hollywood studios, to switch to an encripted DVI signal for HD programs that those studios are worried about being pirated or copied, so that those of us with "standard" HDTV's without DVI interfaces get sent 480p or 480i signals even though we have HDTV capability! If anyone has any more new information on this issue I would most appreciate hearing about it.

Here is a link to the site with the PVR 921 pictures:

http://www.dishretailer.com/ts2002/Index.html

-Jeremy

A similar topic has started in Outlaw to Outlaw: future use (sorry, I don't know how to make links yet). This is very interesting to see what happens to HDTV. I can see adding in digital connections, but not having the older analog ones is just screaming for trouble. I would hope that they are making adapters as well.

If Jeremy's heard what I've heard, he has good reason to be concerned. Earlier this year, when I first heard about the industry's plan to move to DVI for all HD video, part of the plan included phasing analog HD video out very aggressively -- future HDTV decoders would be allowed to include analog outputs, but those outputs could not provide higher than 480p resolution. So owners of the current crop of HDTV's (which almost universally lack DVI inputs) would end up not able to get higher than 480p resolution on sets capable of providing 720p or 1080i. It's a nasty, nasty deal, and one of the reasons that I'm glad I'm not in a position to be ready to buy an HD set right now.

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

Is the DVI the only change coming down the road? I am looking at the new Samsung DLP HDTV and after reading this went back and checked and it does in fact have a DVI connection. So I guess my question is... am I safe buying now? or will there be more changes down the road to render this investment obsolete?

I’m not in a position to watch the current play out of this format war.
When I gave it up, (and purchased the Sony HDTV) I let go worrying for now.

Isn’t there a question that the current DVI (and near future releases) will not be the final connection approved by the studios etc? And the possible final version of DVI quite possibly will not be backward compatible to those on the market coming out?
Or have they finally settled that possible twist to the issue?

I would wish that if this were implemented (worse scenario). Broadening and enlarging the number of consumers impacted who have purchased, that there were be such a stink raised (secret hope that some high impact lawyers who live on AV forums, will class action a ‘force’ at barest minimum creating a ‘work around’, grandfathered solution….

Just some general musings I’m in the soup regardless.

I haven't heard anything about the DVI standard being officially adopted or finalized or anything, so it's probably safe to say that anything's possible. A DVI input alone may not be enough, if they come along in six months and pick a new video encryption scheme that the set will need as well.

Lena makes a good point -- the current crop of analog-only HDTV's are most likely not completely future-proof, because there is a push to go encrypted digital for the video feed in the future. But the way that standards like that go typically, waiting for it to be resolved may involve its own set of problems -- namely, winding up without a perfectly good TV for years.

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

IMHO the horses are already out of the corral. With several million HD capable sets now in use, it would precipitate a riot if they were all suddenly denied 1080i or 720p broadcasts and rendered useless because they do not have a DVI or some other designated connection. But, having said that, if you own one of these sets, it might be worth the effort to let your Representative in Congress know your feelings on this subject as I think this whole mess may only be resolved at this level- uh, maybe!

I've only heard rumors on various websites, so I don't want to be too strong in my statements. It is hard to believe (but not impossible) that HDTV broadcasters would stick it to so many people. I think someone will come out with a third party converter to go from DVI to component (I think they might exist already), but I wouldn't put money on that.

If I've heard correctly, isn't this whole thing coming about because HDTV is supposedly higher quality than DVDs even? I've never seen HDTV so I wouldn't know.

TurnerF- I would like to have that new Samsung DLP RPTV myself- but since it isn't in the cards right now for me- go for it! I think right now it's as "future proof" as any now on the market regards connections. Gonk and Lena are right,you could wait for all these issues to be ironed out, but you probably will be waiting for several years to come. So if you 're ready buy now and have a great time with your new set. I don't even think you'd be considered an "early adapter" anymore! Reminds me of one of my neighbors when years ago I demo'd my first Dolby Pro Logic system for him. He was impressed. A month or so later I asked him if he was ready to set up his own system to which he replied that he was going to wait to see what changes were coming to make sure he got the latest and greatest. He's still waiting! Me, I think I'll wait to see what my neighbor buys...

I was looking around on the net and ran across this company who makes a DVI-to-VGA converter, but I'm sure that the encryption algorythim would still keep us from being able to recieve a true 1080i HD signal, until hackers cracked the sucker that is! I am extremely pissed at the gaul that Hollywood in general has shown in escentially black-mailing electronics manufactures and broadcasters into alienating it's core supporters just because they are afraid of loosing any money basicly on movies and shows that consumers have already watched to death, not to mention garnering truckloads of cash for their pockets, and the few of us (at least at this time) who are willing to go the extra mile and support a new product line to bring HDTV into the mainstream are then disregarded as what, foolish early adopters!?! Without people like us to fund what was a fledgling new standard, where the HELL do these people think they would be? I have heard some buzz about "class action lawsuits" but haven't heard much else, and need to find out if anything is currently happening to bridge the gap between the DVI standard and our current soon-to-be phased out analog component HD standard. We really cannot afford to let Hollywood pull this crap with us!

Here is the link for the DVI-to-VGA converter. I'll post again when I learn more about it's capabilities.

http://store.kayye.com/kayye/dvitovgacon.html

Also, take a look at the new Blu-Ray HD-DVD players coming to market in the near future to also institute the DVI encrypted output for HD signal transmission! Here's that link, but be warned, it's in japanese.

http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20020911/sony1.htm

If you would like to read a little more about it, check the "My Two Cents" archive on thedigitalbits.com

Ya'll take care now!

-Jeremy

IMO DVI is not the final word. Certainly when receivers and dvd players start having DVI you are going to need another inpput on your TV. I thought I had read that HDCP was actually smaller than DVI, and that there would be some kind of adapter. Anyway if there is one thing you can be certain of is that there will always be change. I say buy your TV now and enjoy it. If you wait for the next best thing you will never have anything.

Sometimes I still feel confused about the whole thing. Everybody says we sell HDTVs yet very few are actually capable of displaying true 1920x1080 lines of resolution. They either have 1280x720 or 840x600 or whatever. I feel that a true HDTV should be a TV that has 1920x1080 lines of resolution. Not a tv that is able to take that signal and scale it down to whatever their native resolution is. I still feel I am losing out. Very few tv manufacturers have really explained this or have satisfied our HDTV needs. Certainly the technology has not come out yet for LCDs and DLPs. Although I thought I heard that the sharp 24" display can do 1920x1080.

Anyway the bottom line is if you can wait a year better for you. Prices are only going to get cheaper. It also allows for the bugs to get worked out on newer products. It is amazing how many nightmare stories you here from people on forums like this one. They spent anywhere from 3 to 8 thousand on their display units and they have burn-in, dead pixels, dust blobs. Or with the recent release of the Samsung DLP-TVs, the PQ is bad on 480i sources.

If you are really anxious about getting a TV now at least wait for the reports at cedia, and then make a choice. Enjoy your TV and when something really extraordinary comes out you can sell it, or give it to the folks, or put it in the bedroom, or stick it in the basement, or and this is the best one, give it to your old pal Jeff.

Happy Shopping



[This message has been edited by JeffreyMercado (edited September 19, 2002).]

In my experience, manufacturers have been labelling as "HDTV" anything whose native resolution is higher than 480p. I would expect, however, that a proper HDTV set should scale everything it receives up to 1920x1080. It's a pain, though, that there's no easy scaling to convert 1280x720 to 1920x1080... why couldn't they have set the standards as integer multiples of each other? It seems as though they chose 1.5 multiples which makes things harier for scalers.

Another thing that confuses me. We've had computer monitors for years that can display resolutions higher than 1920x1080, and prices on those have fallen through the floor lately; especially CRTs. Why, then, is it so hard and so expensive to produce TVs with higher than 640x480 resolution? Why not just slap a TV tuner on a 19" monitor and call it a TV?



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Matthew J. Hill
matt@idsi.net

Already done here! I actually have a 17" now, but the idea is still there. Can't wait to get something like a 21" Sony CPD-G520.

Standard TV signals don't look quite as good on monitors as they are very blocky. I don't know if HDTV will be able to go into one. I vaguely remember something about how this was possible. DVDs still look fantastic though, even on my 3 year old Trinitron.

Yeah, I love to play DVDs on my PowerMac. They look sharp and beautiful; it's like having a 1200p TV (yeah I know there is no such thing) hooked up to a high-quality video scalar/deinterlacer. The downside is, it's in a different room from my HT and therefore not connected to it; so all sound is in stereo. Pretty nice speakers, but still not towers and not 5.1.

I never put a TV tuner card in it. Are there HDTV tuner cards available? If there were such a thing, and you could use it to capture to the HDD, it would be like having a HDTV DVR. I might just have to move the mac into the HT room and make it a HTMac.

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Matthew J. Hill
matt@idsi.net

I don't know what there is for a mac, but for a PC there's the AccessDTV Digital Media Receiver

http://computers.cnet.com/hardware/0-1110-404-6742800.html?tag=pdtl-list

How do you make a link anyway? How do you get smiley faces and other fun stuff in there too?

This thread has gotten me following HDTV developments - so last night read about Rep Tauzin pushing a bill to push up the deadline to turn off the analog broadcast signal. This morning I read that a while ago the FTC passed a ruling that as of '04 all 35"+ sets have to include a HDTV tuner. That's only 1 1/2 years away!! How can we still be discussing connectivity compatibility issues with time lines like that approaching? This has the feel of a train wreck approaching.

Ben, apparently you figured out how to make a link because it is there! I'll follow it as soon as I finish typing this. To make smileys type colon-right parenthesis. There are other variations available; see the "Smilies Legend" to the left of the text box.

TunerF, yes I can also see how this could be a Bad Thing.

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Matthew J. Hill
matt@idsi.net

I don't see anything on their site about Mac so I've sent them an e-mail... we'll see what they say. This thing could be great, if it will work for me.

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Matthew J. Hill
matt@idsi.net

Oh there's the smilies! I never saw that before.

Anyway, I think I just lucked out with that link as I typed the entire thing in (copied it really). I was wondering how to attach the link to words, like what Gonk does with "follow the link 'here'" so much.

[This message has been edited by BenjaminRigby (edited September 20, 2002).]

[This message has been edited by BenjaminRigby (edited September 20, 2002).]

You mean like this?

put [ url ] and [ /url ] around the link (without the spaces inside the brackets -- like [ url ]www.yahoo.com[ /url ] to get www.yahoo.com ) or put the link in the first brackets (like [ url=http://www.yahoo.com/ ]this[ /url ] without the spaces inside the brackets to get this ).



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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

Gotcha!

Thanks Gonk and Outlaws

DmC

I have tried to get the consumer advocate reporter at the newspaper I work at to write about this since thousands of people who own HDTV sets will basically be ripped off if this standard ever comes to pass. Not only that, but it is false and misleading advertising to say these sets are HD when they may not be able to get the true HD resolution. All the stores selling these sets are just pushing the product without letting the consumer know what is possible in the future. I know I would be ticked if i spent $2-$4000 on a supposedly "HD ready" tv only to find out i cannot get that resolution. The reporter and our TV writer claims it is "too" complicated for our readers to understand. Well, that's our job I told them, to make the story easy to understand and get the information out there.

Matthew,
Off topic, but from one Mac user to another, you might find this interesting:
http://www.m-audio.com/products/consumer/sonicaSite/alt_content/about.html
(Works with PCs also). I just got mine so I haven't evaluated the pseudo surround quality or how it sounds through the 950, but it's supposed to support DTS, DD, and DPL. I got it mainly for digital recording onto my minidisc player.

Yeah, that little job looks pretty cool. I've been thinking about it... :-) But if the 950 is incapable of processing a 96kHz signal, as I've read recently in another thread, that does reduce the usefulness of it a little bit, for stereo. It will still be great to have 5.1 support for DVDs, though. Now if I can only find a 30' Toslink cable... :-)

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Matthew J. Hill
matt@idsi.net

I thought the outcome of that thread was that the 950 can handle 96kHz in stereo, but will have to downconvert to 4kKHz if you want to do surround processing (PLII or NEO6).

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review