Alternatives to the 1070?

I've had my 1070 for almost a year now. It still sounds as great to me as it did when I first hooked it up. But despite repeated firmware updates, it's just too buggy in my system... freeze-ups, audio drop-outs, etc. It's worst with my Dish Network DVR, but this stuff happens occasionally with other sources too.

Is there any other receiver that sounds as good as the 1070? I can't afford much over $1000 or so. Separates are out for me due to space limitations. I'm considering the Emotiva DMR-1.

I'm hoping "Gonk" still hangs out here, because he appears to have knowledge of both brands.

My apologies to Outlaw if my question breaks forum rules... I'll understand if it's deleted. But I'm kinda desperate for suggestions. Thanks in advance.

Not sure if it will work for you, but the Onkyo 805 is less than your limit at crutchfield.com. Suprisingly it is also THX Ultra 2 certified. Not looking to break any forum rules, just trying to help someone out.

The DMR-1 is in the process of being discontinued, and as a result they have been dropping the price significantly. It is based on the Sunfire Theater Grand IV platform, with the balanced pre-amp outputs dropped and internal amps added. I haven't ever heard one, but it should be a pretty decent choice for a sub-$1000 receiver (especially if you aren't looking to dive into the HDMI generation just yet).

I think it would be a little sad if we resorted to deleting threads that propose alternatives to the 1070. I think everyone knows it's a little buggy and I could see how someone might give in. I resolved a lot of my audio-dropouts w/ my cable box by putting Auto-polling back on. I love the sound put out by my 1070 so I'm going to hang in there. A lot of people have been high on the Onkyo receivers just released. I wouldn't mind demo'ing one.

I agree - there is no need to fear thread deletion for something like this.

Receivers from NAD look interesting. Didn't Peter Tribeman work for NAD?

Peter was the main man for NAD USA. As an Audiophile, I hate receivers yet the 1070 is getting me through a very tough time in my life until I get my feet back on the ground. I am a former Systems Engineer making $100,000 back in 1999 and now I can't find any work and when I do, it is BS temp for really low pay.

I use Audiophile grade speakers (Alon 2 Mk2) as fronts and I have a really great DVD player (Denon 3930CI) which I had modified by Matt at SACDmods.com. These two Audiophile grade pieces in my system are way about the 1070 yet the 1070 performs way above is price point. Is the 1070 perfect, I say no. It is without doubt, the audiophile's pathway into HT.

The 1070 plays Music, not some fake crap that most receivers play.

The next Gen should be nice, HDMI 1.3 inputs, full HD Audio decoding, and good sound. I hope that add more power , say 75 x 7 channels and use less IC's and maybe better DAC's

I applaud Outlaw for making such a fine component to please a really fickle Audiophile like me.

I want to mention to all that the main man to ask for help is the one and only Jim P aka Gonk.

Liz out

Thanks for the replies! Frankly, I half-expected my post to have disappeared when I checked back tonight. It's great that Outlaw allows frank discussions of their products in their forum.

I especially appreciate Gonk's reply. I didn't know the Emotiva is based on a Sunfire platform. This is not good news, as I've never been particularly impressed with the Carver products I've heard and I think Sunfire is/was one of his products (?)

The bottom line for me is that the 1070 sounds really, really good to my ears and I'm afraid anything else I try won't measure up. Yet it drives me nuts with dropping the audio and freeze-ups. I sometimes have to unplug it from the wall socket for half an hour to get it going again.

I'm undecided what to do. One option would be to rebuild my entertainment center so I'd have room for Outlaw's separates. Their current specials are enticing. But my entertainment center is a built-in and I'm afraid it'd cost like $1000 to have it rebuilt. but maybe it would be worth it.

Upgrade the Firmware!

Yep, Sunfire is one of Carver's products.

Well, I decided to give the Emotiva receiver a try. What with the Carver platform and digital amps, I doubt it'll sound as good as the Outlaw, but I'm tired of fighting the bugs in the 1070.

And yes... I updated the firmware each time a new version was available. The weird thing is that the updates always seemed to fix things at first, but then the same old bugs returned. I've always thought there must be some significance to this, but I have no idea what it might be.

I don't know what other receiver to try besides the Emotiva... I hauled home and returned several Japanese-brand receivers before buying the 1070. None of them sounded very good to me. Ditto for the NAD receiver I tried (wasn't impressed by that one at all).

So I've got my fingers crossed about the Emotiva

David,

Stay with Outlaw!!!!!!!!

I'll always deal with the bugs and the wife's irked comments (like last night when I'm switching inputs 5 times to get my HD-DVD video onscreen) for that Outlaw sound

but do get back to us with your feedback David.

I'm in the same boat David...spoiled by the sound, but frustrated with the bugs. Let us know how the Emotiva compares.

One thing Emotiva doesn't seem to have is the lip synch, a feature I, one, truly feel I wouldn't be able to do without.

I have it at 40ms and bump it up to roughly 100ms for Comcast's "On demand".

That is correct - none of the Emotiva products have lip sync adjustment. The DMC, MMC, and DMR use an older Sunfire platform and the LMC uses the same DSP chip as Outlaw's old Model 950 - in both cases, the processor doesn't support AV sync.

I have a feeling that this is David's impression about Emotiva DMR-1, but I might be wrong, of course.

Here it is

Yeah, that's the link to my "never-ending" review of the Emotiva

As you'll note there, I ended up returning the Emotiva. It's a very powerful-sounding and pretty darn awesome receiver, but there's something not quite right with the high-frequency response. And it lacks the open sound of the Outlaw 1070.

What I need is the Outlaw sound in a more powerful and reliable product. And, of course, that'd be their separates. But I had a carpenter out Saturday to get an estimate on re-building my entertainment center... $2000! Even worse than I had thought. It's a beautiful piece of cabinet work, but I'm seriously thinking of just grabbing the Black and Decker and attacking it myself

The 1070 is aweome yet I just ordered a used Anthem MCA 5 Series 2 amp. Using a HQ amp will make the sound much more to me liking.

Liz

David - Is it the 990 that won't fit in your entertainment center...or just no room for a seperate amp?

I just replaced my second 1070 with a 970/7075 combo, and it's a very compact pair. I only had a few problems with the last 1070...and haven't had any issues with the 970 (yet). I'm planning on living with any issues until the 970's replacement is released.

Chas,

Please convey your impressions about the 970/7075 pair as opposed to the 1070?

Very very very similar performance. I would say bass sounds a little "drier" (for lack of a better term) with the 970/7075 combo....bass sounded a little "thicker" with the 1070 (maybe due to the shared large capacitance?). Sounds in movies seem a little crisper in each speaker with the 970/7075. For example I was trying out private ryan (dts) and background voices really popped out in a way that I don't ever remember before.

Hey Chas,

Do you use the Multi Channel Analog Input in Bypass mode with the toggle switch all the way up?

How is music sounding with the combo now?

I prefer bypass without a sub. Music sounds about the same to me on the 970/7075 and the 1070.

Argh, you put more money into the 970 and amp yet no gains :-(

The gain would be more available power. If I am not mistaken, the 1070 consumes 855watts, while the 7075 consumes 1200watts. While the specs show 65 w vs 75 w, I think the 7075 would provide more headroom. But I could be mistaken.

Gain doesn't necessarily mean more available power if I am not mistaken.

More headroom is really the only benefit I expected from the 970/7075 combo. The main reason for buying was to switch to seperates with a good deal on the combo, and build some Outlaw bucks towards the next generation processor.

chas,

Let the new units break in and then convey the changes in SQ compared to your 1070.

I am stil waiting for my Anthem MCA 5 series 2 amp to arrive.

David,

If you still looking for an alternative, perhaps the Sherwood Newcastle R-872 is worth a try. It supports HDMI 1.3a and decodes TrueHD and DTS-HD MA. Personally, I wouldn't buy a new receiver at this stage of the game without HDMI 1.3a support and support for the new codecs. Sherwood Newcastle also has a decent reputation for audio sound quality. I believe it's listed around $1000.

If you re-configure your cable box/satellite box to use the analog outputs does this help at all with the lock-ups? Just wondering if you can get your system in a usable state until the next round of Outlaw products come out...who knows, maybe they'll offer some sort of a trade-up program.

Good luck,
-John

I've been away over the Thanksgiving holiday, so haven't had time to do much more thinking about a replacement for my 1070.

I'd like to add a little something to my comments about the sound of the Emotiva DMR-1 I tried, as compared to the 1070. I finally got around to reconnecting the 1070 tonight, and I think I suddenly realized what the DMR-1 was lacking: It didn't do a good job of preserving low-level audio information at typical listening levels. It's not that any details were totally missing, but more like I threw a thin blanket over my speakers.

The DMR-1 did, however, just plain blow away the 1070 in terms of power. I'm not really talking here about how loud it could play, but rather how much crisper, tighter and dynamic the DMR-1 sounded even at low listening levels. If you'll pardon the expression, it sounded like it grabbed my speakers by the balls. The difference was quite dramatic, for both movies and music.

So I think you folks who are trying separates and/or external power amps are on the right track. My problem is I just don't have room in my entertainment center for a separate power amp. The space is only 10.5" high, and you have to leave some breathing room for ventilation, you know? Even the bigger Japanese receivers wouldn't fit comfortably.

chas - Please let us know your experiences with the 970... my understanding was that it's the same pre/pro as in the 1070, and I certainly don't want that!

Lizard King - I'll be interested to hear your impressions of the 1070 + Anthem when it arrives.

John Galt - HDMI (of any flavor) is not a factor for me in a replacement for the 1070. I prefer to run all my video direct, and I imagine it'll be at least a couple years before I will have any need for the audio capabilities of HDMI. And there'll probably be some new version by then In regard to connecting my Dish receiver via analog... I think that would at least partly solve my problems with the 1070, but I'd lose 5.1 audio when it's available.

If you don't need HDMI audio or video, you might also consider looking for a Sherwood R-965. Single chassis (albeit a large one: same dimensions as a Model 990, basically), and judging by the 990 that I have - which is built on the R-965/P-965 platform - it might appeal to you.

The Sherwood R-965 is a huge receiver, bulky, crap speaking posts, crap female RCA's, Good sound and a major pain in the butt to setup and use!

David-W, I will glady share my thoughts about the 1070/Anthem Amp. I believe the amp will arrive Monday or Tuesday.

I am also wating for 5 Signal Cables Analog 2 IC's with Bullets plugs. Using the bullets is better than the normal crap RCA.


A word for you new people, Gonk in the man!

Thanks for the additional input!

The Sherwood is intriguing... I Googled it and it seems pretty impressive, plus it's less than 8" high so it'd fit in my entertainment center.

A couple things concern me... is this the same Sherwood that makes the cheap stuff sold by Circuit City? Also, I don't quite understand what Lizard meant by "crap speaking posts, crap female RCA's". Could you elaborate on that please? Is this something that would impact sound quality, or is it more just an "aesthetic" thing?

Anyways... this receiver seems to be selling for around $1400, which is a bit above my desired price point, although it'd be cheaper than rebuilding my entertainment center for sure.

I kinda hate to give up on Outlaw though... I really like the sound of my 1070. In fact, with more power and less glitches, it'd be just about perfect in my view. I keep thinking it might be worth it to make space for their separates.

Gonk - What Outlaw amp(s) have you used with your 990?

David_W,

I have a friend who uses the Sherwood Newcastle R-965. He curses it, hates the losuy support that the company seems to give him yet likes the sound quality

He has told me he will sell his one day and his is tired of it uses yet he does like the SQ. He does NOT use the remote control, is is the Mx-500 and it drains the batteries.

He asks me to help him since he struggles to use is as it is a tough unit to operate.

The unit is large, heavy and bulky. The Speaker posts and the female RCA plugs are cheap quality, not worthy of the unit.

The unit is like 2 years old so check with the company if there are updates .

Beware of the unit, it does sound good yet it is tough to use and needs a lot of patience.

Liz

David - can you give us a quick run down/comparison of the Japanese receivers you tried?

David,

If you don't need HDMI or the new audio support, I would try to get a demo Arcam AVR250 unit. These should be available in the $1000 range. The sound quality should be up there, although oddly enough they don't have pre-amp outputs, so adding an external amp if your thirst for power isn't satisifed won't be possible.

I don't get a lot of 5.1 content from my satellite provider, in fact almost none...so I was recommending switching to analog, however you may be in a different situation.

I would also seriously consider looking at used receivers / separates as these should becoming plentiful with the next upgrade cycle.

BTW...please refrain from these type of comments: or else you're going to push me into upgrading my 1070 Say, what kind of speakers are you using out of curiosity?

-John

David,

if Emotiva was much crisper, tighter and dynamic, even at low listening levels, why didn't you stick with it? Were those highs so bad to wash away all the other pluses? I'm only asking here, don't get me wrong.

I've tried a Yamaha over the weekend, the RX-V1800, which is loaded with features and sports 130W per channel.

It's HDMI 1.3a ready, works flawlessly, is loaded with features, including video upscaling. Has automatic setup which was "spot on".

But it didn't sound right to me and back to the store it went. It was initially $1600, recently $1080 and didn't stand up to my 65W per canannel 1070, which I got for $900, in sound quality.

The midrange was not right, the higs seemed to be "up in the air with nothing under them" and sounded in a way that made me think of white noise instead of cymbals. It was pulling attention to each speaker, the sound was not blending in. It was loud, allright, but I usually crank up my 1070 to -15 -10 dB while watching movies. Those 130W of power just didn't sound right and I, one, don't need them.

I know that my "review" seems terrible, but the unit is not that bad. Maybe, had I never heard the Outlaw sound, I would have found it pretty much OK, especially since I use my HT for just that, movies. Ignorance is bliss, but once I've tasted the Outkla sound, I become an "addict".

Damn, it's not at all easy to find a replacement for the 1070 to give you that sound for that money... Maybe not even possible!?

Avoid Yamaha and the expenisve Arcam units! The 1070 can be used an a full premap and it supports Analog Bass Management. I wil have my Anthem amp soon and report how much betetr it sounds so sit tight.

Liz

Well, first off, I've decided what I'm going to do.... I'm just going to sit tight with the 1070 for now. Despite my various quibbles with the unit, I have to say again that over-all it just plain sounds better to me than anything else I've heard at or even near its price.

Ultimately, as my budget permits (within 6 months hopefully), I'll bite the bullet and re-do my entertainment center so I can upgrade to separates. Very probably Outlaw, as I seem to like their sound. I'm afraid I would end up disappointed with anything else I might try in the meantime.

Lizard King - Thanks for the additional info on the Sherwood. It's feedback like this that helped me decide to just stick with the 1070.

chas - It was over a year ago (before I purchased the 1070) that I hauled home like four Japanese-brand receivers. My recollection of their specific sounds is hazy now, and I can't recall the model numbers... they were all $700-$800. The main thing I do remember is that none of them sounded very good to me. In fact, I had decided that if the Outlaw 1070 didn't float my boat, I was going to go back to just plain 2-channel stereo.

I do remember the receiver I really hated was a Pioneer. It was way too warm and fuzzy-sounding for my taste. I also tried a Yamaha and Denon... I can't recall much about either except that I wasn't happy with them. I do remember the Denon sounded flat and lifeless to me. The one receiver I could have lived with if necessary was a Marantz, but I found it to be too "polite"... it never really rocked, you know?

My speakers are Athena AS-B1's... cheap, not especially accurate or revealing... but efficient and punchy, and they sound *great* with the 1070!

John Galt - Thanks for the Arcam suggestion. I do, in fact, kinda like the "dry, crisp British sound" and I'd forgotten about Arcam. But as I said above, I've decided to stay with my 1070 for now. The Emotiva did make me a little power-hungry... I think the next upgrade for both of us should be some big, honkin separates

Alexandru - I hadn't read your post yet when I commented on my experience with Yamaha (above). Man, you nailed their sound right on the head as far as I'm concerned. Gobs of features, looks nice, works perfect, plays loud...... but doesn't sound right. You're much better at describing the audio qualities of stuff than I am... I can't really explain exactly what was wrong with the Emotiva. It just wasn't quite right. Grand pianos sounded like electronic keyboards. Banjos sounded like mandolins. etc.

Everybody - Jeez, sorry this got so long!!

Good post David...and many of us have been in the same boat. I've tried about 5 or 6 receivers just in the last year. I'm sure they all would have been fine if I hadn't lived with an Outlaw, but since I have they all sounded a bit dull.

Athena's are great speakers for the money (IMO)! I had them before moving to Ascends. The only one I really disliked was their center speaker.

I think you made a good choice David...thanks for the update.

I'll go on a limb and say that what we all like about Outlaw sound, the sweet midrange and full-bodied sound with the right dynamics, come from that oversized toroidal transformer, that very potent power supply.
That is also responsible for the "true power rating", those "honest" 65Wpc (in the case of the 1070) which leave other 130Wpc in the dust.

Audio electronics design is all a game of compromise, when below the high-end, stereophile, price-no-object league.

Given the price point, a designer has to carefully choose what has to go and what has to stay to hit the targeted price. I believe Outlaw made the right call. They put the money in the power supply, where it matters most for the analog audio quality. Of course, everything else, the other components, had to stay in a decent, audio enthusiast league as well, but the power supply stands above all else in this receiver, and this pays off.

I'll reiterate what I said numerous times. Had 1070 not had the "no audio" bug, it would have been the best in its league by a nautical mile. With the bug, it's only by a terrestrial mile, give or take a handful of yards.

Of course, I reserve the privilege of being wrong in my assessment, as with everything else in my life... ;-)

So the pressure is on the Outlaw engineers for the next generation 1070/970! Let's start with:

1. Maintain/improve the sound quality
2. Debugify

3. HDMI-ify

I keep trying to pronounce that in my mind and ending up with "humidify" - and visions of a 1070 chassis with a water line connected to the back and a plume of steam rising from the vents is really amusing...

Actually I think even the cost-no-object engineers have to make compromises too, just none based primarily on cost.

4. Digital Plus, TrueHD, DTS-HD decoders

Outlaw Audio makes a receiver (the 1070) that is much better than it's MSRP which is our course, $899 direct from the company. Fact, the SQ for music when using the Analog inout in bypass mode with full analog bass MGT. is much better than 90% of the other receivers out there which cost even more $. The fact than you can use the 1070 and a full preamp and you have 4 digital coax and 4 digitial Toslink inputs! The setup is so easy, the unit decodes digital signals on the fly when using digital inputs (MOVIE soundtracks!)

IMHO, in order for Outlaw to keep the cost down, they do use lesser grade DACS that work well yet do not please the audiophile such as myself.

My high end Denon DVD 3930CI uses thhe Burr Brown PCM1796 current output 2 channel DACs to drive the stereo outputs. This means that you effectively have two DACs per channel. Ideally this provides lower noise and reduces nonlinearities and other unwanted transients in the output signal. I also have mine modified and mine sounds like a serious audiophile grade unit with no digital timing erros or that lean sound. I have full bass, depth, etc.

The 1070 uses less grade, crystal dacs (thanks Gonk for the info). I feel the SQ when listening to 2 channel music, esp SACD to be a lot better than most movies.

I did research and thanks again to Gonk for telling me that DD 5.1 and DTS 5.1 are both compressed. I even spoke with someone at DTS to learn more about this once Gonk told me.

I have an amp that should arrive today from Fed Ex . I feel the sound Quality of DVDs when using the 1070 for most people is great yet for the dedicated audiophile, maybe not.

The amp should improve the SQ in many ways. Should I get into Blu-Ray (not HD-DVD), I will think about getting a new preamp that supports the full onboard decoding of the HD Audio formats all the way up to DTS master. Againg, In much talks with Gonk, I feel using a Sony PS3 that can decode these tracks hopefully with firmware upgrades. will work. I have too much Money, time and effort with my superb DVD that I do not want another player just for movies. At current, I have a Ps2 hooked up to the 1070 via an Outlaw PDO and that is a lot of fun. Have any of you played G-d of war or G-d of war2 in progressive mode?

Do I feel the 1070 is the final answer, I think not. Was the choice to get a 1070 as a entry path in HT and music playback for this audiophile, the answer is YES!

The 1070 when using a high end pair of speakers, sub and front end on the analog inputs really makes me pleased. The unit will pass what you put into it. If you put garbage in, expect garbage to be played through.

As far as allowing hardware upgrades to make available HDMI inputs and chipsets that have HD Audio ability, this will cuase Outlaw to increase the price way above the current set prices.

What I would like to see in the next Receiver and also the lower preamp from Outlaw is:

1). Improved SQ - Better Dacs, less Op amps.More power say 90 watts times 7 in the receiver.

2). More control over bass MGMT, esp analog, not default THX 80 Hz set. Also, allow 5 or 10HZ increments. This should alao be in the next 990.

3) Full support for HD Audio up to DTS master Audio with HDMI inputs up to current and hopefully future specs.

4) A feature that alows you to trim bass in the sub from rumbling like in Movies.

5) Better grade speaker posts and RCA female plugs, wire inside the unit, better grade Caps,etc.

6) Support for HD Radio: so I only need an antenna.

7) More analog inputs than just the One!

This is a good point. All engineering involves making compromises, whatever the design, whatever the budget.
Like the HDMI humidification, this one is a given for a next-generation product - Outlaw even confirmed as much when announced October's "double down" promotion. Both the 970's replacement and the 990's replacement will include these new processing modes.

Liz - I do agree the DAC's could use an upgrade. Bypass is great, but I do find music using the 1070/970 DAC's to be kinda disappointing.

Agreed Chas!

What are you using , your whole system these days? Mabe make a signature like mine?

Heck of a post, Lizard King. I've got to run to some meetings shortly, but want to toss out a few thoughts about what we might see in a future Outlaw receiver...
Price will drive this one. I have no doubt that they'll do the best they can for their target price point, but with everything else crammed under the hood of something like the 1070 there are only so many ways to control cost.
5Hz increments might be a bit more control than is really needed, but 10Hz increments could be handy. Analog bass management, however, is not likely to get any better than what the 1070 does now. Even a global adjustable crossover takes a lot to implement in the analog domain. Doing more than that would require a 7.1 version of the old ICBM, and it still doesn't allow for time delay or channel trim. That's a mighty big cost to add to any product, especially when the trend is to move away from analog input. The only folks using the multichannel analog input on a next-gen product are going to be folks with really high end sources (like a modded 3930) or folks with older DVD-A/SACD players that they don't want to replace. Everyone else will be using HDMI inputs to deliver multichannel PCM, DSD, or bitstreams of DD+, TrueHD, or DTS-HD to the receiver, and those signals will have no use for complex and expensive analog bass management. If the next generation Outlaw products retain the analog bass management that they introduced with the 950, I bet it'll also be the last generation to offer it. HDMI's support for multichannel PCM creates a digital pipe that comes very close to making multichannel analog inputs obsolete.
I think a few discrete controls like sub trim would be very well received - center trim would likely also fall into this category.
Like number 1 above, this is going to be a place where they have to balance cost and benefit.
I really doubt we'll see this one. Three or four years ago, this might have been more useful (when we had DVD-A and SACD standalone players in the last format war), but today the only time you'll see even a single multichannel analog source connected to an HDMI v1.x receiver will be an existing DVD-A/SACD player. Blu-ray and HD-DVD folks will be using the HDMI connections just as soon as they get the chance, because that is the connection around which the hardware for both formats has been built.

Almost forgot - it would be nice to have a display on the front of the unit that was readable from more than a few feet away.

I second this!!!!!

Personally on any future device, I'd rather it just overlay volume and other important information onto the video source.

These days there's so much info that has to be crammed onto the front display that it's hard to make any of it readable from far away, unless they go to an OLED or other type of pixel display, which would probably increase either the cost or system noise prohibitively.

Much easier these days with a modern video processor to just overlay it onto the video stream. As long as you can do that without adding noise to the video stream, that's the way to go.

That's my two cents on that anyhow.

I agree it's definitely nice to have the display on the video source...but I do like to turn this off for movie viewing so I can adjust the volume in "stealth" mode. It would also be nice to see the display when using a non-video source (like CD).

David_W,

I am please to tell you that I now have the Anthem amp in the system. At this time, I am using the amp just for the front speakers. I am hoping to hook up the other three on Thursday If my buddy can help me and if the 2 pair of Banana Plugs arrive from BlueJean Cables.

I am using brand new IC's with Bullet RCA's and also a brand new Power Cord that is used on the 1070.

New cables take time to break in and I am told to give these Ics and power cord 70 hours.

I was playing FM, My PC and then some HD broadcast material and the DVD player I have is very high resolution.

Before I went to bed, I stayed up really late and played two Rocks SACDS. SRV Texas flood sounds nice and when I played the live tracks, I was really loving them. The Bass is tighter, punchier and more detailed. The HF's are better and I hear more detail in the Mids. The transparesy is also better. The Rolling Stones Beggars Banquet SACD was next. The same traits apply to that one to, I was really into the music. I can say I have not heard these two Discs sound this good before.

I will report back soon yet I know to let the cables break in.

The 1070 is fine as a preamp, works well! I do not have the bugs the some people do so I say Hail Outlaw for this great unit!

The amp is an Anthem MCA 5 series two amp. What I really like is what I read about this amp. When listening at low levels, the music is more involving, esp the bass. I also like the transparent sound.

What I do not like is the lousy speaking posts. The ones on the 1070 are better than these buggers.

Should I decide to mod this amp, the first things I want is new speaking binding posts.


More to come.

Liz out


PS All hail GONK!

Liz:

Keep us posted. You have mixed a lot of new gear into the equation, so it may be hard to isolate just what's contributing what. So at some point, it would be interesting to swap out some of the new cables for old, and then put them back in, to get some individual A/B comparisons.

What power cord did you buy? You may want to play around with that on your amp and CD player too. That's where I've noticed the biggest differences. But get ready to don your asbestos suit when you report back on that one!

PS: (tongue firmly in cheek) If you really want to throw some extra napalm on that fire, name your power cord "Charlie."

VD,

The Power Cord that is on the 1070 is Signal cables MagicPower Digital Reference. Here is the link: http://signalcable.com/digitalpowerHC.html.

I do not like to A/B comparisons, they make me nuts.

As far as IC's go, you can't do better than using good cables with Bullet Plugs!


VD,

Interesting setup I was checking out your pics. Seems like you are more setup for HT than Audio Yet you do like Vinyl.

I really fell my modified Denon 3930CI DVD player when playing a goood sounding CD, esp SACD is the best sounding ANALOG like Player!

I was hoping otherwise, but I think you're right about this trend gonk. Although the 1070 is well suited for supporting future audio streams decoded externally such as TrueHD or DTS HD MA with its analog bass management capability and excellent signal path through the 7.1 connections, I don't see many of these type of HD DVD/Blu-ray players coming on the scene. In fact the trend in the under $600 players seem to be to provide limited decoding for analog outputs. Even if such players existed for an 'affordable' price it's debatable if the analog path would ever sound as good as the HDMI path...in fact there are a few threads on other forums on this very topic today with the concensus being the HDMI path sounds better. Certainly on my 1070 DD and DTS decoding in the receiver is superior to decoding on my DVD player, although the reverse is true for CDs.

I would definately like to see an upgrade in DACs for two channel audio in the 1070+ or at least in the 970+. In my mind, it's the main weak point in the 1070 since I'm fortunate enough not to be hit by the no-audio bug.

It'll be interesting to see if the Outlaws offer a trade-in on the 1070 for the purchase of Outlaw separates...I think they did something like this for the 1050. I'd certainly entertain moving from the 1070 to a 970+/7075 combination given a $500 or so trade-in. If not, I think I'd opt to keep the 1070 and add a 970+ rather than moving to a new receiver...would it make sense to use the 1070 purely as an amp?

-John

I wouldn't entirely rule out the possibility of some fairly respectable-sounding HD players appearing eventually that could offer fairly complete internal decoding and decent 7.1 analog output. Unfortunately, I do agree with you that the current "tone" of the format war will make this unlikely in the near term - it's going to be left to companies like Denon/Marantz, LG, OPPO, and others on the periphery of the war who may be willing to try building a player (ideally a combo player that would support both formats) with some concern given to consumers who aren't willing to embrace HDMI. I guess I share your lack of overwhelming optimism...

As for the HDMI path sounding better, there are a number of variables to contend with there. The obvious first issue is DAC's and the overall analog signal path, an aspect where surround receivers and processors are more likely to excel than source players born amid a cost-sensitive format war. This is one that can be done very well in the player, if care is taken and a bit of money spent on that aspect of the player. The other issue is decoding and DSP, an aspect where the receiver will likely always dominate. The decoding itself isn't necessarily a big deal - especially with Blu-ray's multichannel PCM tracks that require no decoding at all and the TrueHD tracks that are relatively straightforward - but the associated DSP can make a big difference for things like bass management, time delay, and so forth.
It can be done - but there are some quirks associated with such an arrangement. I generally only recommend using a receiver as a power amp as a temporary measure. You would want to set the bass management switch to bypass, you'd have to set the 1070 to a fixed volume position and leave it there, and if you were using an Outlaw processor you'd have to work out how to turn it on and off without allowing it to pick up changes in input setting or volume setting sent to the processor. You'd be better off selling the 1070 to help pay for a 7075, as it would simplify setup and operation of the system - and I believe that it'd give you a larger power supply to boot.

Liz:

My system does double duty. And you've brought to my attention that those pics are pretty out of date! The amps have changed. My digital front end has changed. And all my cables have changed. Most of the updgrades were focused on improving two channel playback.

As to vinyl, I'm refocusing my attention on that for the moment: I've been experimenting with some dampening on the turntable; I'm going to upgrade my armboard; and I've been playing around with differnt tubes on my phono preamp. I also finally got around to repairing my record cleaning machine and am starting to hit the used record stores again! It's been fun. There's just something about vinyl. It sounds so darned good when you get things dialed in.

Best,

- VD

VD,

Glad to hear to read you are into Music in 2 channel. I do not like the sound so far and music in multi-channel unless it was recorded for that like in concert DVDs with the surrounds used for ambience.

I am debating on one day getting the Anthem amp modified to make it more like a tube amp with Liquidity, dimensionality, etc. It may the 1070 as the prwamp that keeps some of the dimensionality down.

Good grief... this thread seems to have sort of careened out of control

It's not my intent to offend anybody here... you all are a great bunch of guys! (and gals?? - are there any here??) But honestly, "wish-list" threads for audio products have always seemed silly to me. If any of the honchos at Outlaw get this far down in this topic, I'd be really interested to know how much attention they pay to these things.

Having said that... I agree with Gonk that full HDMI implementation is pretty much a must for all next-gen HT processors and receivers, from Outlaw or anybody else. And I must also agree that a bigger display on the 1070's successor would be welcome... H/K has nice big displays on even their lowest-priced models.

I must disagree with the several complaints about the 1070's DAC's. I actually like the sound of Cirrus DAC's and processors... even their cheap ones... it's kind of a "colder" sound than Burr-Brown and Wolfson. My personal favs have long been from Analog Devices, but I don't know if they even make DAC's anymore (?)

In any case, I have always found that the power supplies and analog portions of processors and amps make a bigger difference in sound quality anyway.

Alexandru - Gee, you seem to have a knack for describing what I hear in audio products, but can't quite describe myself. Your statement "the sweet midrange and full-bodied sound with the right dynamics" is *exactly* what I hear in the 1070, and that I don't hear in the competition. This is one sweet-sounding receiver that doesn't round-off or otherwise color the signal to get that sound.

Lizard King - Please continue posting about your new amp. It sounds like you're hearing the same improvements that I heard with the Emotiva, as compared to the 1070. I would use the 1070 as a pre/pro myself when I upgrade, except for one thing... my original reason for wanting to upgrade from the 1070 was to get rid of the darn bugs in the pre/pro section!

Videodrome - I have to say... I just don't understand why anybody still fiddles around with vinyl. Just too much hassle and expense to get it sounding right. The only phono cartridge I ever really liked (and this dates back like 20-30 years) was a kinda weird design from Decca, but half of 'em didn't work right out of the box, and the other half usually quit working after a month or two. Gotta love the Brits

David_W.

I hooked up my Surrounds and center channel to the amp last night. I have been playing signal through them since as the interconnects are brand new and require break in.

I can comment on 2.1 channel music. The 1070 is a fine receiver, it handled all functions well. When using it as a preamp it is flexible. My amp has twin Power supplies (toroids). That gives it an advantage, especially for reserves. The amp has more power (170W x 5. I was playing a live Led Zeppelin concert (Snow Jobs Vancouver 1975 SBD). I decided to turn up the volunme and I was amazed how John Henry Bonham was playing in my living room. The separate amp can play louder, sound fine at high volumes and that is expected.

Overall, I still find the HF to be better, the LF to be punchier, and tighter. I feel the SQ is more transprent. The music sounds betetr overall!

I have fallen asleep on my couch for 3 consecutive evenings, that's a first for me.

I would have to say that The 1070 feels cooler to the touchg since it the unit isn't driving the speakers.

When listening to DVDs , I still feel that SQ is compressed and I struggle with the center channel.

When playing older movies, esp Dolby 2.0, I use my modified Denon to decode movies so I hear better dialogue. Is my Center Channel (Ascend 340M (classic) not up to the task or is the 1070 lean sounding when decoding movies using the Crystal D/A's as opposed to the Burr Browns in the Denon?

Realize as I am not the typical HT type, I am an audiophile. When you have this disease it it is tough to be pleased.

The 1070 passes smy audiophile test for what it is. A receiver that can do it all till you move to separates.

Cd's esp original releases back in 80's suck! LP's rule big time over those. I do not use a turntable, I was never that meticulous.

Before I joined my old Audiophile club (I am no longer active though I am going to meeting tonight), I went to visit someone who plyed a 1st generation Sony CD player and then we played the same LP's on a Roksan Xerses turtable. The result was simple, the LP's sounded like music and the Cd's sounded like processed vomit.

Since that time there are remastered issues from the original labels using modern technicques, reissues by Steve Hoffman and MFSL.

Should you have an SACD player, I strongly urge you to look into SACD's. The SACD with it's DSD as opposed to PCM is really a quantam leap for most (not all) Discs I have listened too.

I will tell you I only had Pink Floyd DSOTM prior to my DVD player being modified. Now I have more and i want to get more yet there are not enogh titles available becuase teh stupid consumer market place is not demanding them, they get their bastart MP3's and stupid Itunes BS downloads. I cannot listen to Compressed music, It irritates me.

If the 1070 had a phono input and if i had a turntable, I feel confident the SQ would be fuller, more dimensional, more pleasing than most CD's.

They do - in fact the Model 990 uses Analog Device AD1852 24-bit/192kHz DAC's.

Better DAC's are needed ! I believe the Anthem Preamp processors use AKM AK4382 DAC's. These should sound better due to higher quality. Can anyone comment on these? Of course the Anthem are costly :-(

Yeah, but the Anthem processors cost between $4700 and $6700 - I doubt we'll see many parallels in critical chipset selection between those and a sub-$1000 receiver.

Since this thread is good and jacked anyway...

Because you can't always find gems like these on CD (just back from the used record store):
- Baroque Cello Concerti (Thomas Blees with the Stuttgart Soloists;
- Ravi Shankar, "Two Raga Moods;" and my favorite:
- Grant's Scotch Whisky 1979 Piping Championship, Piobaireachd

Hey Everyone,

I went to an audiophile meeting tonight and met a Cable manufacturer who is local here. He makes good stuff at real world prices

Check out his website: http://www.myaudiocables.com/.

I am gonna try some Dvd audio discs through the system

Lizard King - I'm kind of amazed that what you're hearing from your new amp is exactly what I noticed with the more powerful Emotiva receiver I tried, but (hopefully!) without the qualities I found undesirable in the Emotiva. It's becoming increasingly clear to me that more power provides benefits even for those of us who don't listen loud. I wonder why... I've read many times that even inefficient speakers are using only a few watts of power at normal listening levels.

And yeah... early CD's and CD players sounded *awful*. I remember thinking at the time... "this media ain't gonna make it" I have to disagree with you, to some extent, about compressed music files. I use 200 kps (or whatever the units are) MP4's on my Zune with a good set of 'phones, and it doesn't sound half-bad to me for the purpose. I never have been able to find an MP3 codec I like though.


Gonk - Hey, that's great news about the Analog Devices DAC in the 990. I think that's the exact same DAC used in my Philips CD player that I love so much. I'm getting more and more anxious to upgrade!


Videodrome - Valid point about out-of-print stuff on vinyl. Actually, I've got a couple hundred old LP's (lots of obscure stuff from the "British Invasion" back in the 60's) that I'd like to transfer to CD or FLAC or something. But I just haven't found the time or money to do it. I'd need to buy a decent TT, cart and phono-preamp, plus a good USB-type soundcard (I use a laptop), to get the job done to my satisfaction.

David,

No doubt we have the same type of gains. What is the rest of system?

This has been a good and interesting thread as I see myself in the same situation maybe with slightly different reasons. I've had my 1070 since July 2006. It's still buggy, mostly with no audio when first turned on, but that would not be a reason for me to switch as I just turn it off and back on and I'm good to go. The puzzling part of this is, I would think this would be easy to diagnose since it's so predictable. I've been through all the updates and even beta tested firmware for them at one point. Anyway, I'm interested in HDMI 1.3a technology for my new components in the next 6 months. I realize I can use analogue to pass the new uncompressed audio with a few of the new HD players but I just feel I want to try and tackle HDMI, and I know the problems I may have, I spend hours reading the forums on this subject. I don't think I will miss the SQ of the 1070 because of the less than ideal speaker setup I use in this particular room. I'm using 7 Speakercraft AIM8-Level-3 in ceiling speakers with a HSU MKIII sub with Behrenger DSP1124 to equalize the sub. The primary use is HT, then low to mid level background music. I'm thinking of trying either a Denon 3808 or Onkyo 8505, the Denon seems to be less buggy than the Onkyo in the forums. At any rate, what would the 1070 be worth? Half price? Anyone interested? It is mint condition with probably less than 70 hours.
Thanks,
Tom

Tom,

The Denon Recivers sound like crap when playing music.

Lizard King - Yes I know I have my work cut out for me finding something that will sound good AND have all the latest Audio Cdecs, features and HDMI inputs. I have a feeling it's going to be quite expensive.
Thanks,
Tom

Tom - As you probably know from reading this thread, I've listened to almost a half-dozen AVR's here in my home over the past year or so, and none of them sounded as good (most not nearly as good) as the 1070.

However, I seem to be much more critical of sound quality when listening to music in 2.1 mode. If I used my system solely for HT and background music as you do, I think I could have been reasonably satisfied with most of them I tried..... although the Denon receiver I brought home was *not* one of them. That thing sounded thin and lifeless to me even on old I Love Lucy reruns. Really!!

David_W - I will try no less than 3 or 4 brands when I do this, so I appreciate the heads up on Denon. I have a completely different room and 2 channel stereo for Redbook CD music listening so this will indead be 98% for HT.
Thanks,
Tom

The 1070 is an awesome receiver. I just bought a Anthem Premap and i wil have to sell my 1070. If someone wants it, send me a message.

I'm thinking about doing the same.... I loved the sound of my 1070, but I'm tired of all the dang bugs!!! Initially I was thinking about switching to an Outlaw 970/7075 combo, but I'm afraid to... I'm tired of the wife riding my back about the no audio, freeze, & hissing issues & being embrassed when one of these issues happens while I'm entertaining family and friends. So I'm afraid to take that chance again with an Outlaw product. I'm thinking about switching to Rotel RSX-1058, albeit this is more than your price point, but this is what I'm considering... Hopefully, this helps.

Hi LittleRockGator,

I'm guessing that you aren't looking at the 990 due to space constraints?

If you can fit it in your rack, that would be the way to go.

BloggingITGuy, I have space for the 990, just hadn't considered it. Actually, because of my experience with the 1070, I'm near the point of writing off Outlaw products. Although my 1070 sounds GREAT, but how can I really enjoy it if I never no if it's going to work on the first click of the power button, while playing it I never know if the audio is going to become garbled, when switching between sources I miss the first few seconds of sound, or I get no audio at all after switching?

I got tired of applying and removing firmware updates so I hadn't applied an update in a while, 1+ yrs. However, I did just apply the most recent one, I'll see if anything changes... If this update resolves my problems I won't be upgrading, I'm a happy Outlawer again. If not, I will check the 990 /970 forums to see what's up over there, before pulling the triggr on the Rotel. Honestly, it would be hard for me to go back Outlaw, knowing the problems that I experienced with the 1070.

Thanks for your input...

For what it's worth, the 990 and 1070/970 are completely different platforms.

Yeah, which is why I recommended the 990. Also, while the 990 does have certain small issues for some people, as far as I know it has none of the sorts of showstoppers that people seem to be having with the 1070.

And at $800 it's a great value.

Thanks Fellows, I've applied the upgrade I've only had to power it on & off once since last night..... Before upgrading I will consider the 990 as both of you have recommended....

Does Outlaw give any kind of credit for 1070 "trade-ins?"

For all of you newbie's! The industry no longer caters to good sounding music. The current trend is strictly HT and movies.

Normal stereo music, 2 channel should be kept in the analog domain.

To credit the people at Outlaw, they kept an analong input in the 970/1070 that can bypass digital circuits and be kept simple. To even make better sound, they allow Analog Bass MGMT so you can keep your sub in line! This great feature is not in the 990. I do belive you can bypass the digital crap but not use the sub with analog bass MGMT.

My system uses some audiophile componets such as my front end DVD (modified) player, my main speakers, subwoofer and amplifier.

I tried a high end Pre/pro which is wonderful for HT, Movies and HDTV. When I tried playing music, I was so let down.

All the current preamps and receivers are using digital this and digital that. I say Crap, crap, crap. Even Outlaw uses digital inputs as the times call for them yet the still keep in mind that people like me and others need the analog for Music which so many people do not take serious.

My 1070 A/V receiver is used as a preamp. I have to rate the 1070 as good for music and good for HT. The $3000 (new) pre/pro I tried I would rate as excellent for HT, lousy for music. The Outlaw product is the happy medium.

I am hoping that Outlaw makes the next generation 970/1070 and even the 990 to use the multi-channel ANALOG input in Bypass with Analog Bass Mgmt!

I want all of you who read this who may agree with me to pass this along to the folks at Oulaw. The more we tell them (Scott - Director, Edwin - Tech Support, Peter T (President), the better chance we have to see are desires come true.

Keep Analog alive!

If you were in your 30-day window, you could ship it back for a full refund. Outside that, you can always sell it on Audiogon...

Lots of people say "sound for the money". That's the key point. The 1070 beats any Denon at the same price point and matches the Rotel RSX-1057 ($1300 list?) for SQ but not reliability and some features. And it is nowhere near Sunfire seperates (and nor should it be for the price). You pays your money and takes your choice.

But the difference in $ is not that great between a Rotel and 1070 - that's where Outlaw falls down - why save $300 over the lifetime of a receiver for sound dropouts, DVI when everything else is HDMI (i.e., non-transferable cables), or renamable inputs for family convience? And Outlaw service is great compared to the airlines but try Anthem, Rotel and Rega - just as good and personal as Outlaw (they've all helped me out).

I get the brand loyalty thing, but the US is a capitalist economy and hopefully Outlaw understand the feedback that they get from this site to help them suceed.

Well, gonna duck the flak I'm sure to get and go help Santa deliver his goodies (esp. that Blue-Ray player labeled "To Daddy form Santa"- should make the wife believe). Merry Christmas everyone, and thanks to you all for such a great site.

No flak here, kjl - Merry Christmas, and enjoy that Blu-ray player that Santa snuck down the chimney.

KJL,

I use an Anthem MCA 5 series II amp and I love it. It is terrific for both Music and HT. I tried an AVM-30 which was terrific for HT and lousy for music.

Outlaw is the Happy medium.

kjl,

1070 used to sell for $899. The difference between it and the Rotel seems to be more like 44%, pretty significant, percent-wise. I know, you said "the difference in $".

The DVI switching is not that big of a deal. A set of HDMI-DVI adaptors ($10 total from Monoprice) made the cables absolutely transferrable, thus no problem there.

I totally agree that the net difference doesn't make up for the quirks, hence the very title of this thread , but, apparently, not everybody seems to have been hit by the bugs, thus there is a community of happy 1070 owners out there.

And something else, which I forgot to add to my post although I intended to add. Rotal is not a true 7 channel receiver, has only 5 power amps in there.

I wonder how the ADCOM GFR-700 compares, SQ-wise, as it can be found for $1000 on eBay, brand new.

Did anyone have a chance to try it?