processing through 7.1 analog

Does anyone know exactly what processing takes place when using the 7.1 analog inputs? The manual doesn't really say and the chart on the web site doesn't really specify either. I'm looking for information on bass management specifically. For instance, if I went from my blu ray player 5.1 outs to the 990 7.1 inputs does the blu ray player bass management apply? The 990 bass management? neither? both?

Bass management, channel trim, and delays are all that I know of.
Both apply. As a result, I disable bass management in my player (set all speakers to large, set sub to on, and leave all delay and trim settings at 0).

Thanks for the reply. Can you hear the difference in the high resolution audio tracks? I can hear it quite clearly.

I don't have a Blu-ray player hooked up to multichannel analog - I have that input reserved for DVD-A/SACD. Having said that, I'll add that yes, I can hear a benefit from those high-resolution audio discs.

Scott, Gonk and all Outlaws member,
Any suggestion where to buy a "5.1" or even "7.1" analog switcher for the 990? Need one to connect 1 up convertion dvd player which pay SUPER ADUIO CD and DVD-A with its 5.1 analog outputs and another blue ray dvd player (Sony BDP-S550) which has 7.1 analog outs. The 990 only has 1 7.1 analog input, so anyone of you need to hook up 2 players with 7.1 anolog outs, we must need a switcher. Any recommendation?
Thanks in advance.
Kwok Lau

Kwok,

I have had similar concerns about the analog inputs as well, but I have not found an answer. I like Gonk have just settled on using the 7.1 inputs for my SACS/DVD-A. However the future doesn't look entirely bad, I am looking forward to the new Oppo BD-83 as that will be both a high quality SACD/DVD-A player and BD player. Problem solved for me!

Mdrconsult,
Any time when the Oppo BD-83 available ?
Kwok

I'm waiting until I can get all of those formats in one player to make this sort of connection (fingers crossed that OPPO's BDP-83 will pull that particular trick off), but I've seen a few options. The top end of the scale is one of the few that does 7.1 analog easily: the Zektor MAS7.1 , which runs anywhere from $500 to $600. At the other end of the scale, you can use something like this component video switch or one of the numerous similar devices as a 5.1 analog switch (using the three component connections, two analog audio connections, and one composite video connection to get the six audio channels covered) for $25 or so.

Nothing definite, but their goal is "winter" - which could apparently be as soon as December or as late as March. Based on the CEDIA announcement, they are still trying to work out getting DVD-Audio support integrated into the firmware.

Gonk, thanks for your quick advice. I check the link you sent me on that compnent video switcher, but it said to be for video switching. I assume the back of that swither must have 2 sets of component outports and 1 set of component inport. In this case, we can only switch 3 cables' sound signal (say front right, center and left). Then how to swith the other channels (back right/left and the woofer)?
Need to buy 2 component switcher?
Any idea?
Kwok

I might need to hold up the purchase of the sony BDP-s550 right now, as too many re-connection.
Kwok

It's a component video switcher, but as I mentioned in my post there are three other pathways for each input (using the three component connections, two analog audio connections, and one composite video connection to get the six audio channels covered). It's been a standard technique for folks trying to switch 5.1 for several years now.
I think there are a lot of people close to pulling the trigger on a Blu-ray player who are thinking seriously about waiting for the BDP-83 to arrive before committing cash to the format. I'm also keeping a close eye on the '83 as well...

Gonk,
Well, appears the most basic method is to get 6 sets of coexial cable which splits two 2 at one ends. The single end goes to the 990 and the split ends for both players. Just ensure we do not turn on and play two players at same time.
Am I right?
Kwok

That's one approach, but I'm leery of actually doing it.

Gonk, I could not find any details of Oppo blue ray dvd player in their web site. Where is the documentation of the BD83.
thanks.
Kwok Lau

There's nothing on their site yet - once I get Kate tucked in, I'll point you to some information online.

OK, she's settled in pretty well. Here's a local Saloon link that may interest you: butchgo\'s thread . It references the much larger thread at AVS , but there's not much more actual information to be had there than exists in butchgo's thread. At this point, we are probably looking at all the information about the BDP-83 we'll see available for a while to come. OPPO won't add it to their site until they are ready to take orders (as has been the case with their previous players). It's possible that they will let some information out at some point, probably through emails answering direct inquiries or by allowing individual testers (or, more specifically, neuromancer at AVS) to provide more details, but I don't expect much.

Gonk, thank you for the forwarding. Igot a reply from Oppo yesterday. They said the similar thing you said. No time and price as of yet. Please let me know when you get more information in future. Tks.
Kwok

Gonk, by the way, why you do NOT recommend to use coexial cable splits to connect both players outs and the single end to the 990 ins?
To my opinion, if the split cables are of good quality, there should be no loss of the 7.1 surround sound. Am I right?
Kwok

Gonk,I am still thinking of using the cable spliters, because my BD-S550 has already shipped out. The return cost should be enough to buy 5 cable splits from Monoprice or even RadioShack.
Do you agree with me? Any other suggestion?
Kwok

I'm not worried about sound quality so much as I am about having a pathway between the output of two components - shouldn't matter as long as you only have one on at a time, but I just don't know what possible problems might arise for the sources' output sections if both get turned on at once.

Gonk, your point is well received, but 990 is controlling the output and just allow 1 source going out at one time. Besides, the chance of turning on both sources is rare but not impossible. I just ensure I do not turn on both players would be safe and I have a habbit of just turn on 1 player at a time and turn it off if not in use..,,, saving energy.
I might try the "RCA 2 FEMALE TO 1 MALE" cable spliter,from RadioSheck, which is of about $4 each. The cost is cheaper than the return cost of the S550 back to Sony. Tks.
Kwok

The concern I have is upsteam of the 990 - those two source players' outputs will be joined by a single, uninterrupted conductive pathway that is bridged just before the splitter reaches the 990. I simply don't know what the ramifications of that might be for those two sources. If we were dealing with air or water, I'd know what to do - and I'd look at a backdraft damper or check valve because I would not want flow in the wrong direction. In this case, though, all I have is some anxiety about it. I'd talk to Outlaw support or some other manufacturer before hooking my gear up that way - my concerns may be unfounded...

Gonk, your concern is my concern too. Thanks.
Scott of Outlaw in reading this. Please advise your thought.
After all, as I said before, if I only turn on 1 source, not both, our concern should be eliminated. Right?

Scott, please revert. Tks.

Kwok

It is not a good idea to connect two line (or speaker) outputs together unless they are isolated from each other by buildout resistors (not an option to most consumers). Even when one component is "off", the output stage of the "off" component can either act as a short or act as a non linear rectifier, which will cause distortion in the component which is active. The resistors which are normally inline with the outputs of most equipment, and which establish their nominal output impedance, are too low of a value to have any isolation effect.

In short, don't do this type of hookup. If you're technician enough to do some fancy soldering, you can place a buildout resistor of 4K7 inline with the hot (center) leads of both legs of the "Y". This will eliminate the problem, but then the impedance is higher, so the output of the "Y" should connect directly into the input of the receiving gear.

Altec,thanks for your advice. What about if I unplug the non-active component from the electricity outlet? Will it help? I am no expert of soldering as your recommend.
Kwok

Altec, another question....besides causing distortion in the component which is active, what else will happen? Will that damage the active component and the non-active one?

Kwok

Altec, another question....besides causing distortion in the component which is active, what else will happen? Will that damage the active component and the non-active one?

Kwok

I figured there was some sort of audio equivalent of a check valve out there somewhere - thanks for the save...
The danger I see there is Murphy's Law - one instance of inadvertently having both plugged in at once, and you're back to the place we're trying to avoid.

The only thing which will help is if you unplug the outputs of the unused player from the "Y" adapter. Whether a component is turned "off" or unplugged, it does not matter.

I doubt that damage will result from connecting two line outputs, but anything is possible. If you did this to two outputs of your -power amp- then damage would certainly result.

Altec, you mean the power amp will be damaged if play both player at same time?

No. I was trying to make the point that you never want to parallel the outputs of two power amplifiers, as this will cause harm. This has nothing to do with what you are doing.

Altec,
I still do not understand why you pointed out your point of parallel the outputs of 2 pwer amplifiers" if it has nothing to do with what I would do. Please explain in layman term. I am no electrician. Excuse me ignorance. Thank you.

In my thinking, hooking up 2 dvd players' 7.1 analog output cables,using the Y-cable splitters, and contact to the same 7.1 analog input ports of 990 (i.e. sharing 990's single 7.1 analog inputs by 2 dvd players), shall not be a problem, as long as I do NOT play both dvd players at same time with the 7.1 analog outputs.
Besides, The 990 has selection of which 7.1 analog input which dvd player per pre-allocation (i.e. video 1 for first player & video 2 for second dvd player respectively). In this case 990 will never take in 2 analog outputs from both players at same time and send them to the power amp. Even 990 mistakenly send both analog signals from both players to the power amp (which I do not think it will happen), the power amp will shut down itself if the input signals are not "safe" to the power amp itself.
I buy your point that to play safe, by unplug 1 set of the 7.1 analog cable from the Y spliter when using the other 7.1 cables, which is combersome. That's why I prefer permanent hooking up if my thinking is right.

What is your furher expectised opinion.

Gonk, Scott and other outlaw memembers - well come to add in your comments. Thank you all.

Kwok

Hello Kwok,

As has been mentioned here, using Y-adapters to enable two separate source components into the same input is highly discouraged. Even while powered down, the "unused" source will be seen by the processor/receiver as a bad load. I would encourage you to consider a multi-channel switcher. I believe Zektor still manufactures one that may meet your requirements.

Best,

Scott

Let me toss out a less expensive option to the Zektor 7.1 switch that I think might work, since only one of your sources has a 7.1 analog output (the 981HD being 5.1 analog):

Use a component video switch or a similar unit to provide 5.1 analog switching between the 981HD and the front/center/side surround/sub channels of the S550. As mentioned previously, you'll be using a combination of component channels, composite channel, and left/right analog channels to handle the six analog audio connections. Then connect the back surround channels of the S550 directly to the 990. When using the 981HD, the back surrounds would appear to be unused channels (similar to what my 983H does when decoding a 5.1 source via the 7.1 analog outputs) - or at worst (if you had both players running at once) you would get back surround data from the S550 and realize that you ought to at very least pause the S550. It's less elegant than the Zektor, of course, but it will also cost several hundred dollars less...

Altec, Scott, or anyone else see a potential pitfall in this scenario that I'm overlooking?

No, actually what I'm hearing from both Altec and Scott is that this arrangement is not recommended because the Y-cables create a direct bridge between the two players' output sections (something that the designers of the players and the processor do not expect to see happen) and they do not recommend creating that condition. It is likely to create audible distortion, and I don't think the risk of actual damage has been entirely ruled out. If there were to be damage to the 981HD, S550, or 990 as a result (although the 990's comparatively safe in this situation, it sounds like), I doubt any of the companies involved would treat it as a warranty issue if they knew how the system was connected at the time.
The 7.1 direct input cannot be assigned to different sources (it is a source unto itself, with its own video input assignment available), and since it is a single connection it will have no control over what portion of the incoming signal is passed on - if both players are on and playing, it will pass both signals in some sort of unappealing summed mess. Even without taking that into consideration the amp won't know or care what's happening prior to the 990 - it will play whatever the 990 puts out.

Altec's comments about amps were not directly related to what you are proposing - they were simply applying the same electrical principles to a slightly more extreme case. He was describing the case of connecting two separate amplifiers to the same speaker, which is basically just moving the Y-adapter down the signal chain a step or two. Think of two separate systems (such as a stereo setup and a home theater setup) that share a room and a pair of speakers. Connecting the amp output from both systems to the same speaker would mimic what you are talking about doing with the 981HD and S550. In that amp/speaker scenario, the risk of amplifier damage is significant. Doing it with players and a processor may remove risk of damage, but you still get the distortion that Altec warned of.

I can attest to this. Last year was asked to diagnose a problem in a boardroom av setup. Some networking guy set it up so that a dvd player and computer dock were connected across the room from the big flatscreen, and used y cables to send both sets of signals through one set of 75ohm cabling. We had to replace the DVD player, and the rca audio on the computer was dead (still could use the headphone jack, though). Fortunately, they didn't share the same video signals...

Ouch...

Hay, Guys! Extremely appreciated all you warning and recommendation. Yap, use the component switcher recommended by Gonk should be the right and cheapest choice. I will go ahead to get one from Monoprice, to do the switching of 5.1 analogy btw 2 players.
Only the back surround analog inputs at 990 will be used by the blue ray hook-up, not the other player.
Gonk and Scott - then how about when 990 sending 6.1 signals upon PL IIx or DTS Neo:6 or 7-ch stero by the 990 processing. We haven't talk about this if using the component swticher.
Sorry to bother you guys.
Kwok

Yeah, Sluggo's response is a bit scarely. Tks. Sluggo, Good warning.
Kwok

I'm not sure what the question is. The 7.1 Direct input does not allow any matrix processing such as PLIIx or NEO:6, and 7 Stereo only works with a two-channel analog or PCM source anyway. If you want to do any matrix processing to expand 5.1 sources out to 7.1, you need to do it upstream of the 7.1 Direct input.

Gonk, I am sorry.....I am confused myself and also confused you. PLiiX or DTS Neo:6 or 7 Stero are on digital domin for 7.1 out to the power amp. I mixed up with 7.1 analog in, on my last question. Stupid me. Sorry.
Kwok

No sweat...

Gonk, Sluggo and other outlaws:
The S550 came 2 days ago. Hooked it up with 990 with 7.1 analog directly. The HD lossless surrounds definity better than DTS and DD.
s550 provides speaker size, distance to sitting position, x-over settings. The difference from S-350 which I have, is a additional light button on the remote and the 7.1 analog outs which pass all lossless surrounds after decoding by the S-550 itself. The picture quality is similar btw S550 and S350, upon my own nick eye comparison.
I am now awaiting the compoent switcher from Monoprice. Expecting it will arrive latest by Saturday. With it I can then switch between 2 the S-550 and another player which plays DVD-A and SACD. Very excited.
Many thanks for all your former suggestions. Will advise how the switcher works out next week. Regards.
Kwok Lau

Since you are connecting to the Model 990, you already will get bass management, channel trim, and delay as long as you have any speakers set to small. I would recommend setting all speakers to large, the sub to on, distances to 0, and channel trims to 0.

Gonk, 990 also applies bass management to 7.1 analog direct input?? Your recommend setting, as above, is to be set at the S-550, right?
Kwok

That is correct, and yes.

Gonk, Yes Sir. Will do exactly your command. Thanks again. Will tell you the difference after the new setting. I had set speaker =small,with xover =40/80/100/120 and the distances last night when briefly test the system. I had to boom up the Subwoofer to +10db to get balance with other channels. I used the sound meter (RadioShack) to do the calibrations.
Kwok

By having the speakers set to small at both places, you are stacking crossovers, and you may have some bass lost around those crossover points as a result. It's possible that contributed to your need to boost the sub to compensate.

You are right! Gonk. Tks.
Kwok

Gonk and others,
The component video switcher works, but not perfect. The audio outs using the Red/Blue/Green video cable port is very week comparing to the Red and White audio out. The digital out also very week.
To help out the situation a bit, by using the audio (red/white) ports for the front right and left; the digital port for subwoofer; the component ports for the center and both side right and left. I tream down the front left and right to balance the other speakers, but the center speaker is still week (at least 3 dbs weaker than the fron right and left. Not much can be done.
Kwok Lau.

What switcher are you using? I've heard of too many people using this technique for it to be a standard problem with all of them.

The component video switcher from Monoprice. The one you suggested me.
Kwok.

That's frustrating - I'm pretty sure I've seen posts from others using it for this purpose...

Gonk, your suggest is still a workable solution to share 1 x 7.1 analog input at 990 even it is not perfect. Well, nothing is perfect in this world. Please do not concern too much the switcher's limitation. It is still a good suggest with little compromisation. Thank you again. Have a nice day.
Kwok

I use a patchbay, though not for all tastes.
Not only is it handy, but I can move channels should I desire to so do.

Nfaguys,
Please advise more details of the Patchbay. How does it work, where to buy and how much? Thank you.
Kwok

Here is a link to the patchbay. There are many vendors. Price usually about same.

Link to patchbay

I have the channels I want to use for the 7.1 "normalled", meaning that what goes into the top of a column of two (in the back) comes out the bottom. The bottom back jack is connected to 7.1 analog inputs. The top is connected to whatever I want as "normal" or default. Then I do nothing and it is connected. I have other equipment which I want to access the 7.1. These devices are connected to other jacks. Using patch cords I can then patch the others in, by passsing the defualt device.


Here is a link

Link to equipment in living room showing patchbay and various devices to patch int 7.1 analog


My equipment is mostly in a 19 inch rack. Very convenient. but not for most people and/or their wives. I'm fortunate in many regards. this being one.

There are also shorter racks a vailable. You can see in the second picture that my second 990 is mounted in a MIDDLE ATLANTIC RACK PANEL, made specifically to fit the 990.

Nfaguys,
Holly cow, your rack of gears scare me. I still do not understand how to work with that patchbay. Excuse my ignorance and please tell me how to how up 2 dvd players' 7.1 analogs into this patchbay at the front ports and how to link them (at the rear I suppose)to Outlaw 990? After the linkage, how to choose one of the dvd player when in use?
Is the linkage any loss of db? (i.e. are all the channels balanced without triming much)?

Thank you.
Kwok

I don't think you want to go the patchbay route. For starters, it requires doubling the number of interconnects - to the patchbay and from the patchbay to your equipment. Then you need the patch cords themselves.

I use a patchbay because my room contains professional gear which needs to be constantly and easily configured in a flexible manner. For you, I think it would be simply confusing.

Answering KWOK:

The patchbay is analog only. So since DVDs and CDs have a digital output (as well as analog) I don't use it for those, except when I want to patch an analog signal to a CD recorder or my hard drive recorder.

I agree with altec that it might be more than you need. I posted just to show an easy alternative for those so-inclined. I have had patchbays for more decades than I care to remember

A useful configuration for me is this: normalled analog outputs from my MILLENIUM dts decoder into 7.1....then I can listen to dts discs in either dts or thru analog. However I can patch in my Alesis hard drive recorder with also multi-channel recordings.

Sorry if confusing. Wife would agree with you, but she never goes near the thing.

So your suggestion is not suitable to my requirement.
I am now thinking of using a better coaxial cable btw the center channel (analog signal) from the switcher to my outlaw 990. Will see if there is any better (i.e. gain back a db or two from the output.
Kwok

Gonk and other fellows,
In order to boom up the db of the center channel, I make a spliter to contact the center chennel analog outputs from the Sony BDP-S550 and the other dvd player which decode SACD and DVD-A. Only the side channels and the subwoofer are using the inputs and outputs from the Component video switcher. The back channels also using the audio input and output from the switcher. I trim the speaker level at outlaw 990. Not balance exactly, but close to it.
Now I can switch the 7.1 analog outputs between 2 players more easier.
Kwok

You may want to try a different component switch (there are probably some available at Radio Shack) - and you might even send the MonoPrice switch back or ask for an exchange, as there is no reason I know of for the attenuation you were experiencing on the component video and coaxial digital audio connections.

Gank, Thanks for further advice. I try the present setup for a while and try fine tunning the sound level at 990 for a few days more. I might be able to do something better.
Anoter crazy idea is to get 3 units of audio swithers if can find in the market. Regards.
Kwok

There is a Q&A at Monoprice.com about this that says:

Question: Can I use this switch to switch 5.1 channel analog audio instead?
Answer: No, it won't work. Levels are not matched between the inputs.

Maybe it is because video connections are supposed to be 75 ohms, but the audio ones are not?

Wolverine, sorry to hear your advice late. I got the component switcher almost 1 week already and proved it does not match the levels, as you advised. Did Monoprice advise any alternatives?
Kwok

Not that I see.

Hi,

Another 7.1 analog question.

Is the "center width" control in the 990 available? I do not run a center channel. My fronts image very well and a center is unnecessary. I currently run hdmi in to my receiver and it processes with "none" set for center.

I don't know of Blu-ray players have settings for each speaker type. If so, I might be able to get the processing done there. I plan to buy the Oppo when available.

Thanks,

Jerry

The center width control is for Pro Logic II/IIx Music only, and it is relevant for that mode only if you have a center.

If you are using the 7.1 analog connection, your source needs to handle the phantom center. The OPPO BDP-83 should be able to handle this, as their DVD players provide this sort of control (small, large, or off).