2 channel Sub Offset

I am puzzled and wondering if anyone else has this problem. I read all about the 2 channel sub offset and understand what it is for (great feature btw) but have had the exact opposite problem. I am mainly a 2 channel listener but do pop in a DVD from time to time. My trouble is after I have all the levels, crossover setting, delay, etc set for upsample mode to listen to CDs, I find that the sub level is much too high when watching DVDs with Dolby Digital or DTS. So it seems I have the normal problem of most but in reverse. Or I am an idiot and missed the obvious. Any thoughts guys?

Not that I currently have that situation, but I have in the past wished the sub offset went in both directions. I think I must have things dialed in to middle ground somehow and haven't noticed it in a long time.

I may have an idea...

In the 990 channel calibration setup menu, what is your current sub level in dB for multichannel? What is your current 2-CH offset when UPSAMPLE sounds right?

How many dB do you need to turn down your sub for DD/DTS to be correct?

On yeah, are your front speakers set for SMALL or LARGE? If you are set to LARGE, there may be more questions!

You might also want to play around with the crossover settings for your surround channels. It may be set too high. [edit] or too low? (i.e. all speakers large)

Another "gotcha" is that some CD/DVD players apply their own bass management and/or speaker size settings.

Also keep in mind that musical material doesn't usually produce nearly the bass demand of your typical blockbuster movie.

All speakers set to small and cross'ed @ 80hz, I need to back up the sub about 6 or 7db.

The sub level for stereo/upsample is a combination of the overall sub calibration level in the multichannel setup and the 2-ch sub offset. They add together. DVDs in DD/DTS/PLIIx/7.1 analog are only set by the main multichannel calibration levels.

If your 2-ch offset is -6 or -7 dB, you should probably try turning down the overall multichannel sub calibration off by something like -4 or -5 dB below where it is now and then increasing the 2-ch sub offset by the same 4 or 5 dB up to -2 or -3 dB. As long as you down with one and up with the other by the same amount, the DVD sub level will decrease and the CD sub level will be back where you like it.

That is why I asked for both you 2-ch sub offset and the overall sub calibration level in the multichannel setup menu.

Does this make sense, or am I totally misunderstanding your problem?

Now I am confused. I have the sub level set perfect in upsample but if I go to a dvd 5.1 music concert, the sub is over powering and I need to cut it back about 6 or 7db. The offset will only cut back the sub level when I return to upsample, not increase it right??

I haven't followed this thread like I should, so you may have already done this, but I'd start out by calibrating the system in a surround mode (either using the internal test tones or a disc like Digital Video Essentials, AVIA, or GetGray) first, such that 5.1 content sounds right first. Then I'd dial in my sub for two-channel, looking at both front crossover and two-channel sub offset. Also, you might want to try more than one 5.1 concert disc to make sure your original setup is good. I was checking out one disc with another forum member (UMtiger) a few weeks ago, and we both found that the surround mix was very disappointing - no fault of the player, processor, amp, or speakers, but simply because the sound mix was weak. We were focusing mostly on the front soundstage (dialing in a few new speakers) and there was no sub present, but the same principle could apply here. In that case, using the stereo audio track was much more pleasing, and some other 5.1 music samples I brought along sounded fine.

I tried all the obvious stuff, I am just surprised that this is the case. Usually the exact opposite is the case. Perhaps a firmware update which would allow the user to adjust up or down would solve the problem. I am stumped at this point.

Now I am confused. I have the sub level set perfect in upsample but if I go to a dvd 5.1 music concert, the sub is over powering and I need to cut it back about 6 or 7db. The offset will only cut back the sub level when I return to upsample, not increase it right??


I refrained for going back to recommend you set up from the beginning as Gonk said, but that is the best (he always knows best!). Set up completely for multichannel, get the sub level set well for a few disks. Then set the 2-ch sub offset for CDs in upsample.

But I think the answer to your question is yes, BUT... The offset only changes the sub level for 2-channel (stereo/upsample), BUT it is relative to however you have the main sub level set in the main multichannel calibration. So if the main one is too high (which you indicate is the case for DVDs) then you need too large a negative offset for CDs to sound good. If you set the 2-ch offset to 0 dB and then compensated in the main multichannel sub level by turning it down 6 or 7 dB from wherever it is set now, it sound like both CDs and DVDs might both be OK. As you suspect most people here find once the sub level is set for 5.1, they need to back off the 2-ch offset by a couple of dB for 2-channel CDs.

Then set the 2-ch sub offset for CDs in upsample.


This what is puzzling to me, I need the sub level increased in upsample mode, not decreased... doesn't the offset feature only cut the sub level in upsample mode, not increase it??

The more I think about this, are you saying that if I set multichannel to the proper level and leave the 2 channel offset to 0db the upsample sub level will not decrease when I go back to upsample from my Dolby Digital source?

Upsample isn't directly associated with any particular sub trim - it is just a processing mode. If you use it with a two-channel source (which subsequently rules out any matrix surround processing, as upsample can't be combined with processing modes like that), the two-channel sub offset will be in use only because you're in a stereo mode. If you use upsample with a Dolby Digital or DTS 5.1 source (which also rules out matrix surround processing modes that would produce 6.1 or 7.1 from these 5.1 sources), the two-channel sub offset isn't applied because you're not in a stereo mode.

If you have too little bass in two-channel mode after configuring the system to work properly in multichannel, then there may be some other settings that need checking. First, I'd make sure (just to cover all the bases) that the tone controls are zero'd out - or just turn "tone defeat" on to bypass tone controls - so that there's no funny business going on with bass and treble controls. Next, I'd look at the material being used to evaluate bass response: make sure the multichannel source using to calibrate isn't somehow weak in the bass area, and that the two-channel source being used subsequently isn't too hot in the low end. After those two, I'd take a second look at my bass management settings - if the sub seems too strong in music playback, you may want to dial the front channel crossover down some. I had to do this with my SVS 25-31PCi in our old house, as any crossover higher than 40Hz made the sub way too noticeable with music playback. You might also check sub phase to see if reversing the phase works better.

Bass is a very subjective thing and I also don't know what speakers you are running, so take this with a grain of salt. I just think that 80hz is too high of a crossover to set *all* your speakers.

If I set all my speakers at 80hz, based on my speaker mix and how I listen to my system, that would just send too much low frequency information to my two subwoofers for my taste.

Also, based on how the 990 "combines" the signals from various channels (in certain modes) to send to the subwoofer, I would notice drastically more bass in a mode like Stereo-7 than I would in other modes - even more so at 80hz. So all my speakers are crossed-over at 40hz (your mileage may vary).

Just my 2 cents' worth. I hope it helps.

[edit] I just noticed that gonk's post also mentioned turning down the cross-over setting as a possible solution. Sorry for being repetitive.

I appreciate everyones input, I have tried all your suggestions. I am not new to most of this and the source material I am using I am very familiar with. I guess the long and short answer is this is the way things are with the 990.

With your current normal settings, your 2-channel programs (like CDs in UPSAMPLE that you mentioned) sound good, but 5.1 programs (like audio DTS DVDs like you also mentioned) have too much sub by 6 or 7 dB. Is that correct?

Like Gonk says there are many, many possible combinations of modes that can be used with different sources and connections, but I tried to frame my answer using only the two that you mentioned. I do know that UPSAMPLE can be used with DD5.1, for example, and there are 2-channel synthesized modes for DD5.1 and DTS digital sources, but you are not using any of those. Clearly all the things that the others have mentioned here are also true, like crossover frequencies effecting the perceived bass levels, but so does the room and the subwoofer placement.

In my first email I asked you what two of your settings were, but you only gave me one answer, and now I am not sure which one your answer was for. When your sub level is good for a 2-channel mode like a CD in UPSAMPLE but is too loud for a 5.1 channel mode like a DD5.1 or DTS DVD:
1. What is your SUB level in the full speaker calibration setup menu?
2. What is your 2-channel sub offset?

You need to enter the setup from a surround mode to answer the first question and from a 2-channel mode to answer the second.

I believe the solution will be that you need to set the sub level in the full speaker calibration setup menu (the multichannel one) lower by the 6 or 7 dB you mentioned as being needed, so 5.1 channel programs are balanced. Then you will need to change the 2-channel sub offset so that 2-channel programs are back in balance. The multichannel calibration settings apply to both 5.1 and 2-channel modes, but the 2-channel offset only applies to 2-channel modes. So if you change the multichannel sub level to be 6 dB lower than you have it now, you would end up having to raise the 2-channel offset by 6 dB, in order to bring the 2-channel modes (like CDs in STEREO or UPSAMPLE) back up to the level where you have it now, which is where you like it.

Finally, what Gonk said in his first email is the way to go. Use either the test tones in the 990 or a calibration disk to first set all the 5.1 speaker levels, entering the setup from some surround mode. You can even use the 990's microphone and the AUTO calibration feature. This should make DVDs playing in a 5.1 mode like DD5.1/PLIIx/DTS reasonably well balanced. Then you can listen to a 2-channel mode (a 2-channel source like a CD, the tuner or phono playing in STEREO or UPSAMPLE) and set the 2-channel sub offset accordingly.

Actually, his problem appears to be too little sub with 5.1 content when the sub is calibrated to work for two-channel material. Having said that, though, your advise about experimenting with crossover points may still be of use to him.

To clarify, my issue is perfect amount of sub with 2 channel upsample and too much sub with 5.1 material. If I set up the sub level with the test tones or AVIA in Dolby Digital 5.1, then when I switch to 2 channel upsample with a redbook CD, I need to turn the sub level up 5 or 6 db.

Clearly, my mind isn't in gear today (which along with the three meetings I've had so far explains why I haven't gotten anything done yet). Disregard my previous post...

OK. So assuming then that do already have the 2-channel offset at the maximum (0 dB), your problem does sound very odd. I know, sympathy doesn't help much. :-(

Sorry, but just to eliminate any crazy obvious things:

You are using digital connections for both your CDs and DVDs, right? If you were using your DVD player and its decoders into the 990's 7.1 analog input, then all your DVD player settings come into play too. (For those of us playing DVD-A and SACD through 7.1 analog, the player's levels are all set flat when using the 990's bass management.)

There was a bug in the first release of the 990 firmware update if the sub calibration level was set at -15 dB, but I assume you are not there anyway, and you probably have the second release anyway. Just something to eliminate.

I have never heard of any DVD player that can manipulate channel levels before sending out the digital signal, but that would be only other place to look. I do remember some discussion around the saloon of some universal player doing something odd with a weak sub level in some mode. Maybe Gonk remembers that? That was still probably analog output though. Hmmm...

It is hard to imagine that crossover settings could have this kind of 6 dB problem. That is pretty extreme.

This could be a question for Outlaw support--like a blown IC somewhere? They are very good and helpful.

Hi KMDonlon, is there any setting in the dvd player, such as it's own bass mgt? I know my Denon has a plus 10 db setting to help with the dolby processing. I'm sure Gonk must have suggested zeroing out everything in your dvd player,I know in my case the bass is a little more prominent in 7 channel stereo and almost nonexsistent in 2 channel and upsample.

No bass management. I have a Sony DVP-S9000ES, I use it as my main transport for CD & DVDs. I use coaxial digital in and the analog in for SACDs. That's it. I have been through all the obvious stuff as stated earlier and I am far from a newbie at this

I have tone set to 0, no other processing being done. All speakers set to small, crossed at 80hz. I have Monitor Audio Silver 7s as mains. I have had all my gear for many years so I am very familiar with how they sound and work. The only new piece is the Outlaw 990 and having to back down sub levels is new for me in 5.1. My old processor had the exact opposite problem, a 2channel sub offset would have been a nice feature then.

I do have 5.1 set to one of the video inputs and 2 channel upsample set to use the DVD input. I did this so I could easily go between inputs and not have to change the surround mode but I thought that since bass management is global, no worries right?

KMDonlon,

In my setup, I noticed that if I use upsample vs. bypass, upsample has less bass output vs. bypass when I listen to 2-channel material. Also, since I am using a high-end external DAC, it sounds more real and open than the 990's upsample mode to me. Maybe trying the bypass mode will fix the bass issue for you like it did for me.

I also get more bass from BYPASS than UPSAMPLE, but I believe that is because in BYPASS, unless you turn off your sub, you get full range to both front L&R speakers and the sub. BYPASS bypasses the digital crossover, so you get double bass at the frequencies where the mains and sub overlap. When I listen in BYPASS I turn off the sub.

If the problem is as wolverine just stated, my suggestion is not the best solution. But if the problem is really a balance of levels, has anyone tried this?

If the up-sample vs. bypass subwoofer level is too high in favor of bypass and you relied on the 990’s automatic calibration, turn the gain down slightly on the subwoofer and recalibrate. The 990 should respond by increasing the output to the sub for digital modes to restore the sub’s acoustic output to its former level. Meanwhile, when no digital management is occurring in bypass mode, the sub’s level will be less. Compare up-sample to bypass again. If the sub’s level is still too high in bypass, repeat the above procedure. If the sub’s level is now too low in bypass, increase the gain on the sub, but not as high as it was originally and, again, recalibrate. Repeat the appropriate portion of the procedure until you have a balance.

If the up-sample vs. bypass subwoofer level is too high in favor of bypass and you use a meter or RTA for setup, measure and find the difference in the sub’s level between up-sample and bypass. If the result is 4dB, then lower the sub’s gain by 2dB and increase the 990’s subwoofer digital level by 2dB, then test again.

Eventually you should find a point at which the level with the digital features engaged balances almost perfectly with the throughput in bypass mode.

Sorry bestbang4thebuck , my BYPASS vs. UPSAMPLE comment was only in response to slbenz's comment and not intended as a solution to the original problem of KMDonlon.

Regarding the original problem, I am fresh out of ideas, even unlikely ones. I think it's time to ask the experts at support.

I think the only fix is a firmware update to add both directions for the 2 channel sub offset, a cut and boost.

Thanks for trying everyone

Want to bump this thread so maybe a firmware fix will come....sometime....

My further observations on this...

The bass management does not work correctly in "bypass". Bypass and Upsample control the sub the same way, no differnce in level or sound.

I have to set my sub channel level to -5db for any surroound modes (including 7-channel stereo) or it bottoms out. In bypass, stereo, or upsample it sounds best at +5db.

That's a 10db swing. Luckily I have a small LCD display for the OSD so I just crank the sub up to listen to music. Annoying, but it works.

I agree that allowing the 2ch sub offset to boost would fix this......Outlaws are you listening????

KMDonlon,

I'm just wondering if there could be a internal issue with your 990 where reuploading the current firmware can fix. One main reason why I purchased the 990 was to replace my Parasound AVC-1800 surround processor which did not compensate for Dolby Digital and especially DTS subwoofer outputs inherent with these formats. I always had to manually decrease my subwoofer by 10dBs relative to my 2-channel use which is exactly what DTS does with subwoofer outputs. DTS always boosts subwoofer output by 10dBs for their standards. So I am thinking there could be an issue with the auto compensation feature in your 990 for the various formats. Maybe the original firmware in your 990 is corrupted somehow and reloading it again could fix it?

I actually did do that shortly after I got the 990 just to make sure I had the latest firmware. It is an issue with the bass management for sure.

The 2 fixes that I can think of are to either have the 2 channel sub offset go in both directions, up & down or have each input have its own bass management settings applied.

I love this pre/pro but this particular issue is frustrating and made me wish I had looked at some other options. I also paid $999 2 months ago and now they are $799, that also stings a bit too

Rats! I was hoping that uploading the latest software would have remedied the problem for you. Sounds like Outlaw needs to do a firmware upgrade for 2 channel sub offset to go in both directions. And maybe a special offset financially for those of us who bought our 990s only 2 months ago? My financial sting wasn't as bad as yours, I bought a B-stock, but for $100 less now, I could have purchased new instead. Good luck with your 990 and hope Outlaw can correct this issue for you.

Thanks slbenz I agree, I hope Outlaw does at least a final bass management fix before their new pre/pro hits the streets. I do remember we both bought around the same time too.

Outlaws, your move ..........

Sorry to bump this thread, but does anyone ever think we will see any further firware updates to address some of the "glitches" still present in the bass management?

Based on the posts that Scott has made, I get the impression that there will be a firmware update relating to bass management.

I sorta thought that to be the case, I just didn't want all this to fall by the way side with all the buzz about the next generation 990

The 990's successor is still some way off based on the comments offered by Outlaw when they announced their October sale on the 990 and 970, and even after it arrives there are still a lot of 990's out in the market.

Kevin,

Agree with you on this as well!

Slbenz

Thanks Slbenz, we 990/ HCA 1205A owners need to stick together

Hello! This is my first post here, I just took delivery of a 990 a few days ago.

The 10 dB issue is real. The LFE level in surround formats really IS boosted 10 dB for some reasons. Anyone who may like listening regular stereo with a home theater is at risk to run into this problem. It's like people who design those processors don't listen stereo music with their sub on?

My previous processor, a Denon AVD-2000, had a handy feature, the possibility to lower the LFE level. NOT the sub level. Those are different things! I ran it at -10 dB and the bass output was just perfect, either with music or movies.

I was shocked to discover that the 990 have no such feature, I thought it was a requierment of the Dolby spec.

The sub offset NEED to go in both direction, at least 10 dB. Or a LFE level adjustment has to exist.

I'm affraid I will have to considere returning the thing if a solution is not provided as this seems un-liveable..

Glad to hear I am not the only one who feels strongly on this, no word so far from Outlaw regarding a possible firmware fix... many of us are waiting patiently... some more than others :rolleyes:

You're not the only one with the issue! I'm also appaled at the number of people who offered irrelevant solution to you on this thread. Most actually offered solutions to fix the reverse of our problem! I fully understood you issue at first reading, and english is not even my primary language!

In my case, I don't even have the luxury to lower the sub level because I don't actually run a sub! My mains L/R are full range beasts incorporating their own amplified woofers, so no add-on sub required here! So even if the sub offset would go both direction, this wouldn't fix my issue. Feeding the L/R with a regular full range stereo produce a balanced sound with plenty of bass response and headroom. Only with Dolby Digital source the bass is grossly overpowering everything.

Only an "LFE trim" adjustment would correct the bass output. Anyonw know why Dolby decided to boost the LFE signal by 10 dB at the encoding of a DD title? They call it a feature? I call it a defect!

I don't know see how I can fix this... I'm familar with my room, my equipment and my DVDs. I'm into HT and loud car audio since the early 90s and I do live sound mixing as part of my job for almost 20 years.

I opened a ticket with Outlaw, we'll see.

The LFE channel is not to have any bearing on your 2 channel music. It is a discrete information channel for Low Frequency Effects only (more BOOM!), starting at 120Hz on down. It should only be in effect if you are sending the processor a DD or DTS encoded signal that has LFE information. If you are experiencing a 10dB boost when you're not using a DD or DTS source, then there is indeed a problem in the processor/software implementation. An LFE trim adjustment of course is only for LFE information. All other routing of bass is to be at the system signal levels, i.e., same as the front speakers.

Hello. I did said that my problem is with Dolby Digital. 2 channels stereo is tonally balanced. So your comment is technically correct but irrelevant to my situation. You understood the issue backward, like most other posters on this thread.

Let me repeat it : I HAVE TOO MUCH BASS IN DOLBY DIGITAL, BUT STEREO IS OK!

What up with you guys?

I'm just letting you know where the 10dB boost is used. LFE is not always on, just where the sound track has use for it. Also, in Dolby Digital, or any surround mode, you are now pushing the bass into the mains from any other speaker you have set to small. Since you have not posted your complete setup and settings, it makes it very diffcult to troubleshoot.

The easiest solution for Outlaw would be to set up the speaker trim for each input seperately,and get rid of the 2 channel offset altogether. Actually, any pre/pro at this price range should have it anyways, IMHO.

Wow, that is odd that the 990 is missing this setting. My old Marantz A/V receiver has an LFE Level adjustment (-10 dB / 0 dB) in addition to the normal sub level adjustment. I've never had a need to set the LFE Level to -10 dB but there are obviously situations that call for it.

--Chuck

Eric,

Thought you would like to read the DTS guidelines on why they boosted the LFE by 10dBs: http://www.film-tech.com/warehouse/manuals/DTSPOSTPROD.pdf Look at page 14 and their reasoning is due to home theater room response vs. movie theater response for LFE, hence the recording difference. Also wanted to thank you for one of your posts that got me thinking why my 2 channel bass sounded a bit thin. I changed my speaker setting to large instead of small which Outlaw support suggested. Also you may want to try out a DTS sound calibration test disc to determine how well your power subs in your towers are blending with the other drivers in your speakers. I found out while calibrating my brother-in-law's Def Tech BP-2002 speakers that using his receiver's test tones for each channel wasn't fine enough to blend his powered subs to the drivers of his towers properly and produced excessive bass when movies were played. Again due to the DTS and DD standards! Those tower speakers with the powered subs seemed at bit tricky for me at times and took me a while to find the right balance for his speakers. Hopefully Outlaw Support will come out with a firmware solution that can address the problems discussed on this thread.

Slbenz

Quote:

I opened a ticket with Outlaw, we'll see.

Please let us know what they tell you

Well, a lot of things happened lately!

First I took delivery of my new XLR cables, so the Main L/R are now connected in balanced mode to my external active crossover. The additionnal 6 dB of volume I gained by using balanced interconnects will come in handy because I was lacking gain on certain low level source (some satellite channels, the turntable, etc). I used to play CDs with the volume at +6, now it's OK at 0.

Second, I checked the Firmware version. I have 3.11 04, so no update required.

Next, I reconfigured my system. I'm now feeding the sub amp by the 990's SUB out. I set the Main L/R to Small and the SUB setting automatically became YES. I set a 120Hz crossover, which is almost what I used before.

After an extensive reset of my external active crossover, I played some 2 channels music from a CD. From analog and from digital. It sounded great in both case, just like it did before, in all 2 channels modes.

I then poped the Avia test DVD and proceeded to calibrate the levels. Uppon playing a few sweep test tones, I confirmed that the 990's bass management was working as it should.

I played a Dolby Digital movie I'm familiar with the sound (Spiderman) and HURRAY! Everything sounds as it should!

I then played a Dolby Surround movie. As a french speaker, I often have to suffer Dolby Surround 2.0 soundtracks. About half of the DVD release have only 2.0 as the french dubbed soundtrack. The sound was correct and sounded like I'm used to. It was my first exposure to the II version of Pro Logic and I liked it!

As for the Outlaw support, they gave me the usual lip service about how they are working on a fix and remarked I was still within my 30 days try period and I could have a return number no problem...

In conclusion, the sound is tonally balanced for all sources in all modes. I'm way happier than 2 days ago and I will keep the 990! But I still considere it "defective" and I think the published specs and features are missleading if not outright false advertising. I do hope Outlaw post an update. What is good to be able to upgrade a device in the field if no update is actually put out! Heck, my damn GPS is updated like twice a year! In the meantime, I'd suggest avoiding the LARGE MAIN/NO SUB combinaison as it don't work as it should.

So thanks all for the help and comments. Cheer!

Post deleted, sorry!

...wanted to bump this thread again so it doesn't get lost. It seems the real heated discussion is regarding "the bug" in bypass with analog source. (which with my setup isn't an issue) This one to me would be an easier fix.

Re-stated simply: Is there a firmware update coming which will allow the 2ch sub offset to boost as well as trim? That's it, that's all I want.

Currently, when listening to music I manually raise the level to +4 or +5, then when watching a movie lower it to -4 to -8 depending on the source. It would be nice if the 990 did it on its own.

good luck...wouldnt work for me!!