990 UPdate is pretty darn good

I was a little dissaponted when reading Scott's post about what the update adresses. But, I installed the update (not without a few moments of fear of the 990 becoming a black brick), and am happily surprized.
Now I can access the 7.1 direct from the panel (in case the baby steals the remote, as she is prone to doing)
Now I can see what surround mode I am in by the first button push, instead of it changing modes.
Now the bypass mode is the same level as the stereo /upsample modes.
Don't know what else is better, I would like to know what the "minor changes" are.
Of major impotance to me was the issue of the surround mode presets that change if you cycle signal between PCM, DD, and PCM again. This caused the surround mode to leave my preset of stereo and revert to PL2. I haven't tested this yet, I sure hope it's fixed.
I still of course wanted other things as well, but I am 90% happy here now. I wonder if the outlaws are done with updates for the 990, or if they will add more in the future?
Anyhow, thanks again Outlaws...

Ditto.

Being able to see the current surround mode by pressing the button once was at the top of my list. The other was being able to use the lip sync delay without running the video through the 990. I’m tickled pink.

I am happy that some of you are happy, but my reaction was pretty much a letdown. Forums would be pretty boring if everyone agreed on everything! The upgrade does fix some minor annoyances for some, but I found it disappointing especially considering how long it took. I have had my 990 for a year, since the first batch. Don't get me wrong, on balance I am still very happy that I bought it and that still have it. They listed 4 sets of improvements, and this is how I understand them. If I am wrong please set me straight and make me even happier.

1. Lip Sync control from front panel. I have never had any problems with lip sync, but then I have an RPTV, not a projector. I am happy for those who need it.

2. Improved bass management matrix. This raised my hopes the most when I first read it, but turned out to be the biggest disappointment. I think all it means they provide tables that now clearly explain the way the 990 has behaved all along -- and that I had figured out with a lot of useful info from this forum and the wonderful Outlaw customer support. For me the 990 still unfortunately passes summed L+R output to the sub in 2-ch BYPASS and one still cannot get a 7.1 direct analog bypass unless one reconfigures all speakers to LARGE.
Rant: Basically if you have a sub and have to use the 990's otherwise great digital processing for some sources (cable box, VCR, and DTS) and prefer to use it for others (DD5.1 and UPSAMPLE for CDs), you cannot make practical use of the otherwise equally great 990 analog electronics for other analog sources (Phono, SACD, DVD-A, future HD-audio) w/o the extra A/D-D/A. The only way to do this is to set your speakers to LARGE/LFE-only, which bypasses digital processing altogether for all sources. [Yes, why can't I have everything, when the 990 is so close to delivering it all!]

3. Ability to name audio inputs. The 990 already had names for all the devices I had or can imagine getting in the foreseeable future, plus you can't change them on the remote anyway.

4. Subwoofer trim and AM stations above 1190. If anyone knows, I would appreciate an explanation of what was fixed in the subwoofer trim. With help from Steve in Outlaw support, I eventually figured out what the 990 did before and got all my settings to be reasonable for all sources. Although I hardly ever listen to FM (except in the car), or to AM even less, fixing the AM station tuning bug is quite reasonable. Changing the Stereo and Surround mode buttons to show the current mode first was the only minor annoyance worth addressing that I would even notice....though I had gotten used to hitting the buttons a few times.

I have to admit, I am also let down after waiting so long for an update. I thought more would be acomplished.

I recently bought the BA AVP7 to compare to the 990. I think it has better functionality (multiple memorized channel settings, different bass settings for DD, DTS, and MPEG, upsampling is done for 2-channel and for L/R in all other modes as well). The AVP7 does lack the quad-crossover (I have all small speakers set to 80Hz anyhow), the balanced outputs (don't use them either), and the DVI in/outs (don't use them either) the 990 has.

As far as sound it is a very close contest, with the 990 slightly edging out the AVP7 for 2-channel, and the AVP7 slightly edging out the 990 on movies. I was waiting on the firmware update to see if Outlaw would give me a good reason to keep the 990 over the AVP7. I have decided to stay with the AVP7 and will be parting with the 990 shortly.

I forgot, the 7.1 direct runs A/D/A, which can't be good to keep doing this. Right now, I have L/C/R set to large, as the L/R are actually full range, and the center uses a ICBM in recombine.
The rears/surrounds will be going through their own ICBM soon as well (have to hook it up), to avoid the A/D/A conversion. I was hoping the line by line selection like the 970 has would be implimented, so I could sell off my ICBM. Others, however, don't have the luxury of extra ICBMs to use like this, and if I didn't I would be a bit more upset.
My 950 has analog direct, the 970 has line by line selection, the 990 should, if by no other means, a toggle, NOT turning all speakers to large each time.
Oh, and why not something like SNAP? I heard that they weren't satified with it's performance, but is that really it? I mean, it's not like you have to use it, is it? Just to have it availible would help many nasty room nodes, would it not? I don't really need it as I have DEQX, but why not include it?
But, be that as it may, I am happy to get some fixes, BUT, I want more too...

How long do you think you will have to wait for an update to the AVP?

Opps...

Podboy,

I bought the AVP7 knowing no updates would be avaiable (unless the Sherwood ones in the future will apply) and got it new for the price of a 970. The nice thing is BA/Sherwood got many things right from the get-go. The 990 is a fine unit and I am not bashing its performance by any means, but bass is harder than any other unit I have had to get dialed in properly.

I just thought we would get something worth waiting for. I did not suffer from the bass managment issues most did due to having my L/R set to large and the sub set to LFE only. The upgrade should have brought more to the table in my opinion such as different channel level settings for different inputs, .5dB adjustments, etc.

There are things, of course, I wish were different with the AVP7 as well (the display is hard to read for example), but I have never found a processor in my price range that I have said "Wow, this has every single feature I want!" On a sonic performance level, the two units are peers. Keeping the AVP7 will just end up costing me less.

Regards,

I still need to load this upgrade, but the one item I hope is fixed with the bass management is the fact that high frequency information was being sent to the sub output. This was pointed out by someone else on this forum as well (The Capt) who I think sent his 990 back due to these problems.

I was a bit let down as well with the other content of the upgrade. While I know the Outlaws did not like the current quality of SNAP used in the Sherwood units, I thought they stated that there was going to be somekind of equalization added in future.

I just have a feeling that if this was all we got after all this time, we will not be seeing any of the changes we would like to see.

The cases that the sub gets high frequency are listed in the new bass management summary - basically, it's the bypass mode (which bypasses bass management).

There wasn't any activity on equalization in this update, but they also didn't rule out future updates.

I don't know, I'm torn about this.
On one hand I am thrilled that they updated the product, and it is clear to me anyway, that a lot went into making this happen.
I am also happy that 3 of my pet peaves are fixed.
I hope they are not done improving though, as I really want these other issues adressed.
The A/D/A conversion of the 7.1 direct sort of defeats the "direct" nametag, does it not? I mean, really, this sounds like it can be fixed. I say that because if it can be defeated by setting all speakers to large, it IS a firmware revisable issue. (but then again what do I know, I just plug in the wires and hope it works)
Anyway, I am happier than I thought, but not as much as I could be...

The high frequency in the sub was something that happened in stereo either digital or analog. This was something The Capt fought hard with the Outlaws about and they ended up stating the bass management would be reworked.

http://ubb.outlawaudio.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/ubb/get_topic/f/34/t/000413.html

Agreed - High freq's in the sub happened to me in every setting except 5/7 channel stereo and PLIIx.

Bri240, have you tried the firmware update to see if that is still the case? I've played around a bit with my Devious Tiny Disc and have not seen that sort of behavior in any modes except the one where it is expected (analog bypass, with small mains or large mains and sub set to LR+sub).

So has the spontaneous switching to PL2 been fixed? That was by FAR my biggest peeve. I'm on the road so I haven't been able to test the upgrade yet.

Cheers,

Doug,

Let me ask you something about your BA preamp.

You mentioned 'muliple channel settings'. Does this mean that for instance on the DVD input you can set your speakers to all small and sub=on, then say for CD you can set your fronts to large and sub=off?

If so, that would be cool and that's a feature I've always wanted.

darth,

What I meant by multiple channel setting on the BA is: You can save 2 different presets of all channel levels (L/C/R/SR/SBR/SBL/SL/SW) and call them as a preset. You can also adjust the levels on the fly very easily and in effect, this gives you a third set of channel levels.

That was one thing I didn't like about the 990. If you adjust a channel on the fly, it saves the value even when the unit is turned off/on. The BA makes it easy to go back to your orignal settings by calling one of two saved presets.

The BA still only has global speaker set-up (crossovers, sub out). It does give more adjustment as you can set multiple sub channel levels for different types of decoding schemes.

Having seperate levels for DD/DTS and maybe even 5 channel stereo (the sub is 10 times louder in 5 channel stereo) would be really nice as well.

I still would love to be able to have different speaker configurations on each input..or at least different settings for surround sources and 2 channel sources.

Oh well, maybe the next update from Outlaw?

Ritz
The change to PL2 is not spontanious, it happens if you set a PCM stereo source to, let's say, upsample mode. It will stay in that mode until it is hit with some other signal type (like DD or DTS) in that case it will decode as expected. But when you hit it with PCM again, it will not return to Upsample, but the dreaded PL2 cinama.
If you set a preset button to the upsample mode, and only play PCM through it, It will retain the setting. And of course you can set a second button with the same digital input, and set it's preset to, let's say, DD+PL2 music. If you hit this with PCM, it will go to PL2c, but when DD comes back it will keep it's preset (DD+PL2m) However, the other button, with it's Upsample WILL NOT retain when PCM is changed to DD and back to PCM (PL2 now)
This is just how it worked before the update.
However, now the PL2 DOES sound better and I can easily see what mode I am in before changing it.
Upgrade is sure better in many ways, for sure do it.
But, the real annoyanace left is this. Also, I want to have PL2 attached to any DTS track. I can't preselect this, unless a DTS siganl is present (same as before) But, I haven't tested to see if it retaines the last applied processing used with DTS when it sees DTS again after a DD or PCM siganl. If it does, that would be cool...

It's interesting that you mention that - in light of the assortment of things that have been tweaked in the new firmware, I've been tinkering around with some testing to see how it behaves when surround modes change, and I think the behavior you describe has been resolved. My test was to have an input of a certain type, assign it to a processing mode, and then have a series of events that would cause it to re-acquire the original source (pause a DVD, go into the menu and back out, change inputs to a different format, turn the 990 off and back on, ...) - I haven't seen PCM behave that way in these tests.

Gonk
I tested it, it failes When PCM is switched to DD and back to PCM only.
Try using your DVD as a CD player (PCM) then set the preset to upsample. Now use a DD DVD, and note results (switches to DDx, which is ok) then insert a CD again. Now it reverts to PL2
If you leave it on the same input when going from PCM, to DD, to PCM it renderes the Preset useless. Pressing the input botton again does not recall the old upsample setting either, in this case. If you always drive it with PCM, it does retain the setting. (but, the DVD as a cd player would do this, as well a dish network PCM music channels, and DD vidio)
See what I mean?

I'll give this another try, blaineh. I was able to keep the upsample mode active when switching to DD on other sources and then back, but I'll try switching from PCM to DD and back while staying on the same source (I've got one disc that I know has both PCM and DD 5.1 on it) and see what happens.

Gonk, just to confirm something re upsample mode. I assume it is still only the front left, center, front right and sw that emit sound in this mode....as was the case before. I wonder if it is possible to get sound on all 7 speakers in the upsample mode, with the new firmware. Maybe that is not what upsample is capable of?

Upsample mode is purely stereo (with sub if mains are set to small). I don't know if the hardware supports upsampling multichannel sources or layering upsampling and matrix surround processing.

blaineh,

What you have posted is the reason I run the optical cable from the DVD player to the DVD input and the coaxial cable from the DVD player to the CD input. Then, when you switch between inputs the decoding DOES follow the input. I also did this because I had issues with the FL/FR speakers cutting out when you would play a CD in a 2-channel mode and then play a DVD on the same player through the same digital cable to the same input on the 990. I have not tested this glitch since I upgraded the 990 last night.

Doug, you realize that you can assign the same digital input to multiple inputs don't you? I have the optical cable from my Yamaha assigned to both DVD (which uses Pro Logic II processing) and CD (which uses upsample) - it doesn't require running two digital audio cables.

Gonk:
Now I can't find the reference but I *thought* I had read in a thread or the manual (but now I can't find it in the manual) that "UPSAMPLE" mode upsampled the two front channels in a multichannel setup as well as a stereo setup.

Is this not the case?

Gonk, thanks for the reply. I hope that Andrew is correct, as it would be great to get all of the speakers working in the upchannel mode. Is there any way of testing this with the new firmware? Obviously, the only thing I did thus far was to choose upsample mode, and no sound from either the back pair or the side pair. Perhaps there is something else to try....?

I'd be curious to see that, AndrewS - I'd always been under the impression that upsample was a stereo mode, but I've been wrong before. Might be worth a search back through old threads...

Doug (and the outlaws)
The problem here is if I forget, and play a DVD on the the input, instead of changing to "dvd" on the same digital input, it will play, but it wipes the mode preset, and next time I play a PCM source, it reverts to PL2.
For the satalite, we tried assigning two buttons, one (vid 1)for movies (DD), and anouther (vid 4) for the "CD" stations, (which do output PCM on dish network)with a stereo preset. Thing is, it works fine IF you change the video button BEFORE you change Sat stations (from PCM to DD). BUT, we forget often, and then when PCM returns, you get PL2!
This happnes to more than just a few of us, and it took a lot of experiment tation before I realized what was causing the PL2 to apear in my presets.
The same situation can occur if you play a PCM track of a DVD, then next time use a DD, then back to PCM later. No more "stereo" preset.

blaineh,

Sorry, wasn't completely understanding the issue.


Gonk,

I have learned that you can assign one input to multiple devices, but forgot...It's hard to teach an old dog new tricks!


AndrewS,

I am under the impression the upsampling only occurs when the "Upsample" mode is engaged, otherwise, wouldn't you be upsampling in "Stereo" or so on? The BA AVP7 has upsampling as something you turn on or off through the GUI menu. In this manner, the upsampling happens in whatever mode you are in as long as it is turned on, but it is still just on the FL/FR channels.

CI:
Upsample definitely DOES NOT upsample all channels - I just thought I remembered reading that it upsampled the front two channels even in DD. Maybe Scott can shed some light on this.

I couldn't set my DVD to Upsample for calibration because of the level "issue" that I described in earlier threads so I had to set it for PLII for calibration and leave it.

Whoops. OK. The FAQ for the 990 seems to state it's a stereo only mode.

Doug917 made a comment in an earlier thread where I asked this question that Upsample did work with the front two channels of a DD source.

So I'm still unclear but I'm beginning to think that Upsample is for a stereo source only.

Andrew,

I would agree with the above staement when speaking about the 990. However, with the AVP7 the upsampling occurs on all modes when it is engaged in the GUI.

I remember a big discussion about upsampling on the Sherwood over on AVS. I believe they finally concluded that it upsampled all the time including surround modes on all the channels, sounds like the AVP7 may do this too. I wonder why the Outlaws went the other direction with this?

I also noticed the PCM DD preference thing last night while watching Zeps How the West Was Won DVD. It has all three soundtracks PCM/DD/DTS. I wasn’t paying close enough attention but I’m pretty sure it did what blaineh described. Wish I’d read this thread before as I would have checked a little closer. It’s not that big a deal for me.

I finally had some time last night,,,well not exactly but stayed up until 1:00 in the morning trying to update 990 firmware. Once I tried different computer along with another download file, it seemed like the update was successful. However, I tried to rename the audio input but wasn't able to. I thought ability to rename audio input was one of the updated feature right? or did I miss read. Anyway, I didn't have any time to check any other updated features last night, I had to get up early in the morning to go to work. I am going to spend some time this weekend to find out for sure. I was just wondering if anybody else has same issue like mine after the update.

I thought the upgrade process (I used USB) was quite easy and compliment Outlaw on the ease of the upgrade and the thoroughness of the instructions. I was able to rename all inputs after the upgrade.

After reading again all the instruction, I think I found out what I did wrong. I can't confirm this since I am not at home right now. This confirms that I am getting old and I shouldn't have tried this kind of updating half a sleep. Even after all those years of working with computers, I manage to screw up here and there. I feel stupid and silly,,,,oh well.

Finally my 990 firmware upgrade is completed and working great. I was pretty happy with my 990 before the upgrade and now although the upgrade features were small changes but it feels like getting new piece of equipment. Maybe my "upgraditis" will be tame little longer with 990's future firmware/software as well. The only thing I didn't like about from this firmware upgrade is the sub's trim level goes "wild" after certain level trimming (-13 dbs???). If the other member didn't mention about this bug, I am pretty sure that I thought my sub driver was fried. Anyway, overall I am satisfied with the 990's recent firmware upgrade.

Yep hopefully they will fix that bug. In the mean time just keep the total sub trim between the two channel offset and the normal channel trim greater then -15db total. If it is jumping at -13db you probally have a -2db two-channel offset dialed in. The temporary solution is to turn you sub amp gain down if you are getting close to the -15 limit.

Yeah, it was my two channel sub off-set that triggered the sub going full blast. Maybe it is my imagination but overall accuracy seemed little better now. I did just that lowering my gains of my subwoofers to compensate for the bug.

Ok, I'm not sure that I follow 100% about the new bug in the 990's S/W update.
I was going to be buying the 990/7125/LFM-1 combo.
My front L/R speakers are B&W DM603 Series 1, Center is CC6 Series 2, Surrounds are DS6 Series 1.
How would this sub bug effect my set-up?

It won't affect you unless you adjust your sub to -15db...and if you do that you have serious setup issues in the first place.

Stupid question but do you have a sub? I didn't see it listed. If you don't have a sub there is no impact.

Darth is partially correct you can have -15db sub trim (that is the lowest setting) without problem. The bug kicks in if you add in a 2-channel sub offset and the total trim is less then -15db. For instance you have a 2 channel offset of -2db and you change you sub trim from -13db to -14db the bug kicks in. The work around is simple turn down the sub amp gain so the trim attenuation is not near the max attenuation (-15db).

I installed the update Friday night, and it went well only taking about a half hour. I am happy to report that I no longer hear high frequencies from my sub when in stereo mode.

I will have a LFM-1 sub because I am ordering the 990/7125/LFM-1 combo.

Just set it up properly and you'll be fine. I'm sure Outlaw never thought of anyone neededing a -13 of sub trim.

I disagree it is a nasty bug and it is quite easy to get to -15db now that the two-channel offset "works", especially if you have lots of headroom with your sub. The simple fact that several people have stumbled on to this bug is proof enough that it needs fixing. Yes it is easy to work around using your subs gain but at the same time it is also easy to encounter the bug by using the 2 channel sub offset.

You should set your sub level at 0 then adjust the gain on the SUB to where you need it. Then fine tune with the Outlaw. You shouldn't have to go more than +/- 3db on the Outlaw, then you have your 2 channel trim to further tweak it in stereo.

I plan on purchasing my 990 in the next few weeks. Will this new firmware upgrade be preinstalled in forthcoming shipments?

I think one thing possibly missing here is that my sub gain was fine with the previous FW. I wonder if the defaults levels changed? I could definitely see the auto-cal routine possibly adding in a big attenuation too. I think expecting all setups staying under -15db with with the now working two channel offset is unrealistic. As I said earlier several people have already stumbled upon it. It is easy to work around but when it hits it has the potential to do damage to your sub, not a good thing.

i'm having trouble getting my subwoofer dialed in correctly.. it's always way to loud coming out of the 990.

In most cases and with my old Marantz receiver.. i could set the sub level on the back of the subwoofer to about 9 or 10 O'clock. Now with the 990, the highest I can set it without damaging the sub is to about 7 O'clock.. with 6 O'clock being no output. ANyone know why my sub seems to sensitive now? I have played around with the X-over and the phase.. but it's still to loud.

Skyblazer are you familar with the sub trim bug we have been discussing? Are you using a two channel sub offset? If you are turn it off and see if your gain returns to normal. See this thread for an explanation.

Ummm.. honestly i haven't been following the sub trim offset thread at all. I do however know about the 2 ch sub offset level setting. The sub volume problem I am having is with all audio.. not just 2 channel. Movies and music where it uses the subwoofer is way over powering. I wonder if it's the subwoofer itself? Not that it's bad, but that it's just really sensitive?

If I set my sub to 9 O'clock it thumps to hard with every source and decoded I choose.. even stereo sources.

Skyblazer - Do me a favor look in your Menu system under "Channel Calibrate" and tell me what your sub is set at. Now check under "Surround Config" and see what you have if anything set for 2CH Sub Offset. The bug effects all settings not just two channel.

currently in the channel calibrate the sub is set to 0 because the auto set up won't complete it's settings.

and the 2 ch sub offset is set to -4 i set that manually

It sounds like the problem at the moment is the lack of calibration - that's always going to hurt how a system sounds. Do you remember what the auto set-up selected for your sub previously? I've always run mine at around -4dB to -7dB, and it's likely that you were doing the same before.

oh yes, in my circumstance it is because of a lack of calibration.. but when i run the auto set up.. the 990 keeps failing to complete the auto set up as stated above.

it keeps thinking my fronts are small... when they are not.. this wasn't the case before i installed the upgrade.