HD/DVD and BLU-RAY with 990

I just bought a 990 and 7125 amp, so far so good. But I have recently seen where the new hd/dvd and bluray players will have hi-def available thru HDMI only. How are we going to get sound thru our 990's?

You might think about not buying one until the industry gives you, the customer, what you want. They have made it hard for the honest and innocent to use their product, while doing nothing to stop criminals. That said, won't you be able to use 7.1 analog inputs from the HD player to the 990? Did you read something that said they would provide an analog signal carrying one of the HD audio formats?

I won't buy a Blu-Ray or HD-DVD probably ever but certainly not until the format wars end, the anti-piracy shields are lowered, the prices comes down (early adopters are punished--they pay the bill for development), there's plenty of media available and the stupid industry stops thinking that they can charge $30-$40 for a DVD and expect people to pay it. That's gonna be a long time.

Yeah, I agree, as it is now they are pricing things to create a niche market. Of course the early adopters will jump in, but probably not many others will follow, at least not until you start to see universal players (which I've heard are coming) and loosening of the DRM restrictions (and not on a voluntary basis either...must be as a standard).

Then again most people buy iPods and download songs from iTunes so what do they care about DRM restrictions?

But I bet that most people will care about which format will be dominant.

Not to mention those of us who have analog only HDTV monitors (or projectors)-

There's been a lot of debate about the audio side of this lately. Here's the latest info that I've seen (and I haven't seen anything definitive that contradicts it): HDMI 1.1 or 1.2 will carry the newest audio formats decoded into multichannel PCM, and all players will have 5.1 or 7.1 analog outputs that will also carry these formats (mostly 5.1 outputs for some reason, which I can't explain). HDMI and component will both carry the video, although the studios can choose to cripple component (limit it to 540 lines instead of 1080) when mastering each disc. So far, the main Blu-ray studios are promising not to pull that switch for now, although Warner hasn't made it clear what they're doing with their HD-DVD titles in a couple weeks. As for the HDMI video, the 990's DVI switching will work with it just fine.

I don't know how well it works, but I've seen on most of the new displays with the HDMI inputs there is a digital output of some description on the back. For example, I lifted this from the pdf of Sony's 40" BRAVIA™ XBR® LCD Flat Panel HDTV KDL-V40XBR1 display.

You can use the TV’s OPTICAL OUT jack to connect a digital audio device that is PCM/Dolby digital compatible, such as an audio amplifier.

Use an optical cable to connect the TV’s OPTICAL OUT jack to the device’s OPTICAL IN jack.

It also has this discalimer.

The OPTICAL OUT jack is available only when a digital TV channel is received.

It specifically says TV channel so maybe this isn't applicable to another input source, such as a next gen player. Although, it's my understanding that the 5.1/7.1 outputs on the next gen players are because nobody has software yet that knows how to decode the new audio formats. But I think that the media is still supposed to carry a standard DD track. Hopefully someone around here has a little more knowledge on the subject.

We've got three new audio formats to look forward to - Dolby Digital Plus, DTS-HD, and Dolby TrueHD. TrueHD is a lossless format (actually descended from DVD-Audio's MLP), and DTS-HD offers a lossless option. All three can do 7.1 discrete channels. All three are also too large to pass over a coaxial or optical digital audio cable. Firewire could probably do it, but it's never going to get the chance - HDMI's the only digital avenue allowed. The problem is that HDMI won't be allowed to pass the raw, undecoded bitstream of any of these formats until version 1.3 (we're currently on 1.2, which came out last August). In order to transfer any of these formats now, the player must decode the audio first. It can then either send the eight channels of PCM digital audio (the output of the decoder) over an HDMI v1.1 or v1.2 connection, but HDMI inputs on receivers that support audio (rather than just being video switches like the 990's DVI) are still very rare. Therefore, most people will get to those new formats by letting the player convert those PCM signals to analog and use a 5.1 or 7.1 analog output (preferably 7.1, which the 990 can handle, but so far nobody's announced players with 7.1 outputs for some reason). Both DD+ and DTS-HD are also required to include legacy DD 5.1 and DTS 5.1 tracks, which can be passed over a coaxial or optical digital audio cable.

Thanks for helping my understanding of this guys. Sam

Ahh... so it's not just a software limitation, it's also a physical hardware limitation. That makes sense. As always, thanks for the details, gonk.

I have a Sony 60sx955, the optical output is only active with Off the Air channels. I will output 5.1 from the HD channels that I receive. There is no output on the Optical Out when HDMI inputs are selected.

I don't understand why that is. I suppose the assumption they are making is that people who want to use the multi channel audio on the HDMI cable would switch it through some sort of processor on the way to the display and extract it there. But it seems like a pretty poor approach to me, given that there are already two HDMI standards in the marketplace and a third on the way. How hard would it be to send the digital audio out on that output? Or supply a second one for that purpose? Or do all the devices that have HDMI outputs also have digital out for audio (so much for the "one cable" approach)and I'm getting tweaked over a non-issue?

Edit:
Fixed spelling errors.

My Directv RX has HDMI output, and an Optical digital output. I have the Optical out connected to a 990. In the DTV RX Menue you can select either PCM or Dolby Digital format. If PCM is selected I get Audio from my tv speakers and 990 defaults to DD PLIIx and is the only mode selectable. If DD is selected I get no Audio from TV and and all DD modes are available on the 990. I guess this makes sense as I understand that the HDMI audio is PCM. I still do not understand why anyone would want multichannel audio sent to a TV! I like the HDMI video connection very much and the digital connection does improved the PQ IMHO, However this audio situation is a wait and see for for me.

You may not want multichannel sent to your TV but a lot of people want stereo sent to their TV speakers. Since you can't select anything but PLIIX I'm assuming when you select PCM the RX is putting out Stereo. It's the one cable solution to the display for J6P.

Yes the Sat RX is putting out stereo. Hell, I can get a one cable solution to my display with Rabbit Ears and coax to the RF input.

I guess we have finally come full circle.

Hello. I am a brand new Outlaw buyer. My 990, 7700 and LFM-1 are being delivered today.

I contacted Pioneer regarding their blu-ray player that is coming out. I would encourage others to contact them as well regarding the lack of 7.1 analog outputs.

Here is the reply that I received from them:

Thank you for contacting Pioneer Electronics, Inc.

You are correct this model being the first only offers 5.1 analog outputs. Most people connecting 7.1 would use a digital connection instead of an analog.
I will forward your e-mail to our Marketing group for their review.

Sorry to quote an old post, gonk really has a handle on this but I believe the above is incorrect, and now that the machines are on the street we have more info. I don't believe there are legacy DTS or DD tracks on the disk but rather they are derived from the DD+ and DTS-HD tracks.

AFAIK the A1 has three options for audio output, from best to worse, HDMI PCM, analog 5.1, and S/PDIF (coax, Toslink). Here comes the fun part that took everyone by surprise, the S/PDIF output is the DD+ track decoded to PCM and then re-encoded in the machine to DTS. This really threw a lot of people for a loop, I believe it may be possible to send a DD+ derived DD signal over HDMI for decoding but if you have HDMI1.1 or higher you would probably be better off with the Hi-res PCM over HDMI.

It is questionable whether HDMI1.3 is really necessary anytime soon since all of these players decode internally. In fact if the decoding is moved to the Pre/Pro or receivers you will lose some of the player’s interactivity. I see a lot of b**thing and moaning about HDCP and the format wars some are legitimate concerns I agree. What gets lost in all of this is that both these new formats and HDMI are a pretty decent move up on the technological ladder, which as a hobbyist and enthusiast I find exciting.

rduke - Not to throw cold water on the 7.1 analog outputs but I think we may never see any players with it. My feeling is by the time we see 7.1 software the world will have moved to the HDMI interface.

I don't believe that the 990 can applying processing to the analog 7.1 inputs, although I'm not at home to check. If you could applying say DPIIx processing or DTS NEO you could get sound to the rears that way. Maybe a possible upgrade to the 990?

Thanks for passing along the e-mail, rduke. I can't claim to buy into Pioneer's reasoning, but perhaps second gen players will make the move up to 7.1 for analog outputs.

Obie_fl, you've got an excellent point - there was talk at one time about how the new formats would provide legacy support and I think I got it stuck in my head that they would do so by embedding a legacy track, but from a design standpoint that seems like a pretty foolish approach. Even with the new formats, the bit budget had to be considered, and tossing in duplicate data in a lesser format is pretty silly. It makes much more sense to require the players to generate a derived DD or DTS track from the DD+/DTS-HD source.

I've heard about the DD+-to-DTS trick on the Toshiba A1 (and presumably the XA1), and it certainly startled me the first time I saw it. Why use DTS? The only reasons that occur to me are either Toshiba is making use of the higher bit rates allowed by DTS or perhaps a real-time DTS encoder was easier to implement for some reason. I haven't gone hunting around AVS to see if anyone has identified the real reason.

We'll probably see HDMI 1.3 at some point in the next year or so, but I've seen several people point out that the "upgrade" to 1.3 will actually prevent the full degree of interactivity offered by both formats - the downloadable content that is supported apparently only works if the player handles the audio decoding. From that standpoint, leaving the trio of new decoders (DD+, DTS-HD, and TrueHD) in the player actually becomes preferable.

On the one hand, receivers and processors have been shipping with 7.1 analog inputs for a couple years now just for this sort of situation, so I'd hope that at least some manufacturers (at least folks like Denon, perhaps) will recognize that. On the other hand, the sheer number of dubious decisions already associated with these two formats does lend weight to your theory.
You are correct. As it stands now, the 7.1 direct input is independent from all surround processing. I'm not sure that this can be changed with a firmware update - it's very possible the hardware was designed in such a way that it is ruled out.

Mandatroy and optional Surround codecs for HD DVD players.

DTS 5.1 - Not included.

DTS HD - Mandatory (DTS core only, compatible with
standard DTS decoders on market today).

DTS HD Master - Optional (up to 192khz/24 bits).

Dolby Digital 5.1 - Not included.

Dolby Digital Plus - Mandatory.

Dolby Ture HD - Mandatory (2 channels only).
2 to 7 ch.

5.1 channel PCM - Not included (192khz/24 bits).

7.1 channel PCM - Not included (96khz/24bits).

All surround formats passed through a SPDIF will be transcode to DTS 5.1. Optical has a bandwidth of only 1.5Mbps and therfore can not pass the higher transfer rates of Dolby Digital Plus or DTS HD. Both of these formats are limited to 3Mbps with the current form of HD dvd's regardless of how many channels are on the disc. Producers could expand on that by at least 2Mbps in later version of the disc if they so choose.
Just for the record the Toshiba HD-A1 will output hi-def over both HDMI and component outputs. However, HD DVD producers may include copy protection instuctions in their discs that prohibit output over the component out jacks. In this case you will have no choice but to utilize the HDMI output.

Hi all,

I've been listening to SACD via analog for a while now and I think it is fabulous. In other words, sending a digital signal from the DVD player to the preamp doesn't seem to offer enough "extra" to the sound quality to make it worthwhile to fret over. So, as long as the Blu_ray DVD player does the decoding and supplies a good analog signal to the pre-amp, I think it will sound just fine.

my two cents anyway.


Marcus

Sniffer, I agree that SACD sounds great--but what kind of transport are you using to develop the analog signal output? In my case, with a Denon 3910 I don't hear meaningful any difference between the Denon DACs sending analog from a CD or the DACs in the 990. I think you're absolutely right if HD and Blu-Ray manufacturers see their device as a video AND audio device and build them with quality DAC and op amps like my example above. I fear, however, that they will shortchange the audio seeing themselves as an HD video device. Does it make a difference? Probably not in reality. The included formats are likely to be as good as or better than what's on DVDs now and some of those sound awesome. Fact is, we tend to ignore the importance of quality source material. GIGO. A well-recorded soundtrack will doubtless sound great.

Looks like HD sound will have to wait. I bought the 990 over a Anthem D1 in part because of the 7.1 analog inputs. Looks like I get to use only 6 of them which is what the Anthem had. I'm $4000 better off this way and not at all unhappy with the 990. Until the format war all shakes out I am not buying an HD player anyway. It would be fun to watch both formats die an ugly death and a new single format has to be created. But that's not going to happen either--nobody really cares--or not enough of us, so we will go merrily on with format wars, incomplete implementations, incompatibilties, and output flags. You know, the wisdom of the RR2150 becomes clearer and clearer. Things were so simple with two channels.

Isn't anyone aware that the HD/Blu-Ray war is over before a shot was even made? Disc formats are dying. By the time the prices come down for an affordable HD player, HD movies will be downloaded from the internet.

This is inevitable. Why buy another player that's going to be obsolete in two years?

Watch Apple. They are on the Blu-Ray board as well as on Disney's board. The movie studios are putting in iPod formatted movies on the new Blu-Ray disks. It's just a matter of time before full resolution movies will be available along with 7.1 sound and a HD capable iPod.

I agree that we will be moving to a new on demand paradigm, in fact I said as much here. In answer to your question as to why, who knows what the actual timing will be on these services, in the mean time HD-DVD is here today. As an enthusiast I’m pretty excited about the new formats but I also realize they may never reach the popularity of standard DVDs. If we go full circle back to the OP’s original question about audio even this on-demand video is going to need a transport mechanism and I suspect for the next decade or so that is going to be some incarnation of HDMI.

I have a high speed internet connection and I downloaded a copy of the DVD-A "Dark side of the moon". It took over eight hours! I can just imagine how long it would take for an HDDVD! No one is going to want to wait a day to watch a movie..

It took over eight hours! I can just imagine how long it would take for an HDDVD

That is exactly the reason why HD downloadable files are not ready for prime time. More than likely HD files will be compressed during downloading and expanded afterwards.

The true Digital Media Center is just around the corner.

No one is going to want to wait a day to watch a movie

People will download the movies overnight. This is more of an inconvenience than an obstacle. Technology is undoubtedly improving. Watch what Apple does. Their connections with Hollywood and Blu-Ray are key along with their ability to execute.

Cable with QAM modulation can already do real time streaming of HD to HD-DVRs. I have had one for a while and it works quite well. I just wish my cable company would offer some decent movies on the HD On-Demand channel.

These services of the future may use something slightly different then the present internet. Bandwidth in general is still expanding and getting faster and cheaper, so in a few years things may be radically different then today, until then we have HD-DVD and Blu-Ray to fight over.

I don't know about the way of the future being all download and pay per view in any of its various incarnations. Personally, I like having my libraries. I like the look of them on the shelf. I like the artwork. I like being able to physically hold the product in my hand. I like being able to take it wherever I want and and actually be able to play it there. I find physically owning my media comforting.

With downloads, the DRM schemes (and whatever other restrictions they can create) can make creating a physical copy to take with you impossible, or close enough to it not to be any different. Never mind the playback limitations with them (only one PC, etc.).

While the download times may be improving, you'll always be limited in storage capacity by the size of your system. Lets not forget that HD formats consume massive amounts of space. If I run out of room for a physical disc, I can always add more shelves/drawers/rooms, whatever. I don't have to throw away something to make room for another.

Maybe I'm old school in this, but I think that I will always prefer buying my media and having it in hand.

I also like having my media in hand as Owl's does. There just something about having it in an existing form that one can look at and touch that is hard to beat. But, I have got to admit it will be interesting to see what is coming down the pipeline in the next few years.

Chalk me up as another who likes to hold the package in his hands. Unfortunately I think us old farts may be a dieing breed.

Purchased a HD-A1 earlier in the week after reading about how/why it plays regular CD's well here . Been thinking about getting a dedicated CD player for a while, and good CD playback reviews combined with the nice Continental One Pass discount (works out to just over 30% off retail+taxes)....was enough to get me off the sidelines....since I was looking at $300-$800 CD players, if the HDA1 plays CD's as well as reviewed above...then it is almost like getting HD-DVD video as a free bonus, at least that is how I justified purchasing a player before the format war settles out .

The HD-A1 should be here next week, so can't test things yet, but wanted to clear up connection questions using it with the 990. If I have read things right then my best audio option for hddvd's is connecting the 5.1 analog outs of the HDA1 to the 7.1 analog inputs on the 990, and turning off BM in the HDA1 using large speaker settings in it's audio menus. Connected this way I should be able to use the new HD audio formats, and take advantage of what some SACD player owners consider a bug in the 990's 7.1 direct, by using the 990 for BM. The problem is I have a 7.1 speaker setup, and use DPLiix for movies, and like it, especially with the increased output in the back rears after the firmware update.


Has it been verified that this can't be changed with an update? Also, I might be missing something technically, but why would the 7.1 analogs be designed to not allow processing on them? I see how 7.1 might be a problem, but when using only 5.1 analog how is it different than 5.1 from standard dvd tracks, especially since BM IS applied to the 7.1 direct input, doesn't that mean it already has been converted from analog to digital to apply the BM? Why can't it be directed to the 990's dsps? Outlaw has clearly explained why they decided not to use hdmi connections (which I agree with...have used the dvi switching in the 990 from the start), but I got the impression the 7.1 analog inputs were a way to allow future compatibility on the audio side of things if/when the HD audio formats came out. Maybe Outlaw made the assumption that since players were going to handle the processing of the new HD audio formats, all HD players would include 7.1 analogs instead of the the 5.1 put in the first generation of HD players....but it sure would be nice to use my 7.1 speaker setup with the HDA1, when using the HD audio formats.


On the music side of things, I would like to see how the multiple high end audio DACS/DSP's in the HDA1 sound unaltered when playing standard audio cd's...so using the 2 channel stereo outs connected to the 990's 2 channel CD inputs is the way to go here right? Something I am still confused on is if I use the 2 channel CD input, does that disable the Xover settings/BM on the 990....or am I going to be stuck with having to modify Xover's again.

I can imagine that one problem with allowing PLIIx processing on the 7.1 direct input is identifying when only 5.1 channels are present. You could monitor the inputs, but even a 7.1 source would have passages of silence on the surround backs.

If you want to use the HD-A1's DAC's for CD listening, you can do two things. One is to run the stereo analog outputs to the CD input and set that input to bypass. If you use the CD input and the bypass mode, the mains will get a full-range signal (since we're in analog bypass at that point) - but if the mains are set to small, a copy will go to the sub as well. The other is to use the 7.1 input for CD's as well as HD-DVD's, assuming the HD-A1 doesn't do any processing to it.

Thanks Gonk, I figured there might be some problems applying dsp to the 7.1 inputs. I am still confused about using the 7.1 inputs for CD's, I thought by applying BM on 7.1, the 990 needed to use it's DACS.

That's true, actually - with that in mind, the CD input is probably the better choice.

This is a related question to the use of the Toshiba as a CD transport. I am using the 990's DAC's by using the coaxial output of the Toshiba when playing CD's. Would it be better to use the Toshiba's DAC's by using the 2 channel analog output to the 990's 2 channel CD imputs. Which should sound better? I have been setting the 990 to bypass.

Cappra,

That is a good question, I am curious to find out which is better also. It seems Toshiba went with multiple high end DAC's and DSP's for the HD-A1, and I am not sure how they compare to the 990's DACs...but once my HD-A1 arrives I am going to be comparing the two. I currently prefer bypass mode for both music on the D* XM sat channels, and my current Zenith dvd player when playing CD's. Both are connected with optical cables. While I do like the two channel bypass sound for sat music, I am not all that impressed with the sound of CD's in this setup, and tried using the 2 channel analog connection from the dvd player, but did not like that sound much either. The 2 channel analog was tried before updating the 990's firmware, so maybe it sounds better now. Will be a real happy camper if the HD-A1 gives me CD playback that I like.

It sounds like I should use the 7.1 Direct input with my HD-A1 and let the 990 handle the BM, and speaker distance/levels since I have the speakers set to small. Therefore, I should set the HD-A1 5.1 outputs to all speakers "Large" to bypass the BM.

What should I set the Sub and crossover to on the HD-A1?

BTW I also use the coax connection connected to the DVD input for SD DVD viewing. I will have to compare the sound from the DTS track and the DD+ track on HD DVD.

Set the sub to "Use" so that the LFE track stays there (rather than being mixed into the left and right channels). Based on what I see on page 54 of the HD-A1's manual, the crossover determines at what point small speakers get crossed over to the sub - setting the HD-A1's speakers to large should make the crossover setting irrelevent.

I'll be curious to hear your thoughts on the differences between the DTS digital output and the DD+ analog output.

Thanks Gonk! I will report back this weekend!

I read an interesting idea on the AVS Forum to allow 7.1 analog from the HD-A1. The idea was to split the output of the RS and LS into two channels each. Then adjust the channel levels accordingly.

This makes sense since the rear surrounds are usually just taken from the right and left surrounds when the signal is not true 7.1.

What are your thoughts on this?

It's an interesting idea - and the splitting of the signal alone will probably incur a few dB of reduction to begin with (although I'd still recommend fetching the trusty SPL meter and adjusting the surround levels at the HD-A1). Perhaps not as effective as good processing to produce surround backs (there's more happening than simply making a copy), but it could be fun to play with at least.

There's also the old "pseudo-EX" trick of feeding the left and right surrounds into an old Pro Logic receiver and producing a mono surround back signal from the "center" output of the receiver.

I've had the HD-D1 hddvd player since launch hooked up to my 990/7125. I have the rear channels split as mentioned above thru the analog outputs. It sounds better to me that way so I would say get some Y-adapters and give it a try. The Dolby Digital Plus sound thru analog is awesome! I watched The Chronicles of Riddick and Pitch Black this week and they were just exceptional in both picture and sound!

I have not tried this yet. I think I'll give it a go and see what happens. Could be interesting thanks for the idea pink's ale.

Hi Guys,

I'm a recent convert to Outlaw gear, the 990, and have also recently purchased an HD Al.

I'm running my Directtv hd receiver and the HD A1 through the 990 using blue jean cable and radio shack hdmi/dvi cables. The satellite reception remains very good. However, I'm having trouble with the HD A1.

The HD A1 accepts the signal from the 990, but inevitably, while viewing an hd dvd film (most recently, Serenity and Sahara) the picture breaks up or sound drops out, but comes back out of sync, or the film breaks up and locks up. Usually hitting pause will remedy the problem, but it is very annoying.

I was wondering if any of you have experienced these problems, and if so, how did you remedy them.

Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated.

Colt

Have you installed the new firmware for the HD-A1? I know the original firmware was significantly buggy, but the firmware released a month or so ago reportedly improved the behavior significantly.

Hello Gonk,

Thanks for responding.

My HDA1 was manufactured in May 06 and the firmware was v.1.2. I didn't have the Model 990 when I first purchased the A1. I was using an Aragon Soundstage which has neither DVI or HDMI switching capability. I was content to manually switch the hdmi cable between the sat receiver and the A1 as my Sony TV has only one hdmi input. Running the A1 directly into the tv produced a wonderful picture, and other than slow loading times, I experienced no problems with picture or sound.

Toshiba issued its most recent firmwire update, 1.4, a week or so after I had the unit home. I rec'd the update disc and installed the new version. I continued switching the cable manually even after I purchased the 990. It took me until last week to pickup the hdmi/dvi cables. And that is when the switching problems I mentioned in my earlier post began.

I watched the standard dvd of V for Vendetta this evening and didn't experience any problems. This is the only standard dvd I've watched since hooking the 990 and A1 together. Perhaps the errant behavior I'm experiencing is confined to only the hidef discs.

I'm happy with both the 990 & A1. However, I wish they would learn to play well together.

Colt,

I have the HD-A1 using the 990's dvi switching, and saw similar problems when viewing two disks, Van Helsing, and Assault on Prec 13. They were both rentals from netflix, and I am pretty sure the problem with Assault was a scratch...there was a loud pop before it froze, and it really froze. Could duplicate it at same scene. I have watched two other rentals (Dukes and Phantom) without any issues, and the one hd-dvd I purchased, Serenity, played fine without any problems. I think/hope the issues are disk related, but not sure since my sample is pretty small now...but have read that the HD-A1 is real sensitve to disk imperfections.