990 Question re HDMI

I just purchased the 200 watt 7 channel amp though I have not got it out of it's box yet.

I'm very curious about matching it with a 9990. However, I'm about to get a Sony Ruby and would like to get HDMI capability.

Is anyone else looking at the same dilemma?

I just wish that Outlaw had HDMI capability when the new High def DVD formats are prescribing it for 1080P performance.

Am I missing something?

Rob

The 990's DVI switching will work equally well switching video from HDMI sources (HDMI borrowed its video format from DVI, so the two are pin-compatible). You'll need to output the audio via some means other than HDMI (HD-DVD and Blu-ray will offer 7.1 analog outputs, while other sources like upscaling DVD or cable/satellite receivers will have coaxial and optical digital outputs).

So let me get this straight.

The 1080P video signal from a BluRay player will go from HDMI to DVI intot eh 990 and then from DVI back to a Sony Ruby into an HDMI input and still retain its full digital protection.

I'm surprised, but pleased.

Rob

That is exactly correct - the 990's DVI switching is HDCP-compliant, and the manner in which it switches will allow HDMI video to pass through (including 1080p from Blu-ray or 1080i from the first generation of HD-DVD) unchanged. Believe me, it was a source of much debate last April when the 990 was announced.

Now I'm really tempted :-)
Rob

I would suggest Outlaw produces an HDMI verison of this control amp. HDMI is all the buzz with the new formats of high def DVD on the horizon. It also seems that many new plasmas are HDMI enabled as well.

Just met a guy last night who had Outlaw and di not repurchase for this reason. he bought a different preamp. Sad :-(

Rob

From what I understand, buying any HDMI amp today and expecting it to work with the HD DVD formats tomorrow to include transmission of audio signal over HDMI is a gamble at best.

The HDMI standards involved are up in the air at the moment and I don't think anyone has a real clue when the issues of the new standards will be resolved.

From what I can tell, Outlaw went with the DVI connectors as they are 1) a much better connection (screw on versus flimsy snap in) 2) can be connected to HDMI sources anyhow with an HDMI to DVI cable and 3) most people who buy a device with HDMI switching that is HDCP compliant most likely will not be able to switch audio through the same cables once the newer HDMI standard has been set.

So really, you gain nothing by choosing an HDMI device today and there's a good chance that you will have problems with the HDMI connections tomorrow.

Besides, at the pricepoint that the Outlaw comes in at, there aren't a whole lot of pre-pros that do HDMI anyhow, are there? Unless you want to buy a receiver and use it as your front-end.

Perhaps someone with more info/knowledge can add more to all of this, but the Outlaw guys did a pretty good job of addressing this issue in the forums and the 990 FAQ already, if you ask me.

HDMI is quite the buzz, but it's a buzz with some nasty bite behind it. When the 990 was released (after some unknown period of development), HDMI v1.1 was the latest, and there was no word as to whether v1.1 would work at all with Blu-ray and HD-DVD (no word that it wouldn't, either, but it was worryingly unsure). HDMI v1.2 is now the latest, but I've seen a lot of people online who find any arrangement where the player does the decoding distasteful and want to pass the original bitstream - which won't be possible until (if) HDMI v1.3 is released. All of these version changes relate solely to audio - the video side of the format is locked down (largely because it was borrowed from the older and more mature DVI-HDCP), and the 990's DVI switching is transparent to HDMI's video.

I'm sure Outlaw will have an HDMI solution down the road. In the mean time point me to another HDMI Pre/Pro available right now. What did your friend buy? AFAIK there aren't any HDMI equipped Pre/Pros available yet. Anthem is supposedly getting close to shipping theirs but I know of no others.

Pre-pro with HDMI 1.1? Plenty of those I think.

The Integra Research RDC-7.1 is one.

Haven't seen any 1.2 gear out yet and was led to believe that it hasn't been finalized.

HDMI v1.2 was finalized and officially published last fall. HDMI v1.3 remains an uncertainty - I've seen unsubstantiated comments online indicating that it will appear anywhere from later this year to never (my best SWAG would be some time in 2007).

I don't know that I'd say there are "plenty" of HDMI pre/pros, v1.1 or otherwise. In fact, they remain quite rare. Look at the various players in the surround processor market today. Anthem doesn't have HDMI, although the Statement D2 will have it and there will apparently be an upgrade path for existing D1's and possibly even AVM30's. Lexicon doesn't have HDMI. Meridian doesn't have HDMI. Sunfire (including the clones from Sherbourn, Emotiva, etc.) doesn't have HDMI. B&K doesn't have HDMI. Rotel doesn't have HDMI. Adcom doesn't have HDMI. Parasound and Halo don't have HDMI. NAD doesn't have HDMI. Fosgate Audionics doesn't have HDMI. Sherwood (including clones and cousins from BA and Outlaw) doesn't have HDMI. Classe doesn't have HDMI. Klipsch Aragon doesn't have HDMI. Cary Audio doesn't have HDMI. Integra Research does offer an HDMI module for the RDC-7.1 if you are ready to spend $5,000+. I'm probably missing a few names in that list, and of course I'm not listing receivers with HDMI (of which there are a growing number, including three units from Denon and two from Pioneer). Even factoring in the receivers, though, we're still a long way from plenty. I think it'll take at least 18 to 24 months after HD-DVD and Blu-ray launch for there to be an appreciable number of HDMI surround processors - the development cycles on them are too long to let something as complex as HDMI work its way in quickly, especially with the turmoil and uncertainty surrounding the lead-up to this new format war. After all, that uncertainty has to have kept most SSP companies (typically smaller outfits with less R&D depth to spare) from investing too much in the way of time and resources into developing hardware and software around a moving target.

Arcam's new FMJ-8 has HDMI.

Only other one I could find. Guess there aren't so many after all. Most of the HDMI pieces I have seen have been receivers, I suppose.

Mental slip on my part.

Here's the press release regarding release of HDMI 1.2 spec.

http://www.hdmi.org/press/pr/pr_20050823.asp

Call me wrong twice.

I knew I was missing somebody near the front of the alphabet (so many "A" names). EDIT: OK, I figured it out at last - at least a little. Arcam has revised the FMJ-AV9 (caught on after reading a news item on their site) and added HDMI, adding red text to the manual to explain it while leaving the original HDMI-free rear panel diagram intact. Did they recycle the AV8 manual, or did they add HDMI to the AV9 after it was originally released? Pretty disappointing manual for a $5800 piece of hardware. It looks like Arcam's $2200 DiVA AVP700 processor may also have HDMI, although it appears to be limited to video switching (similar to the DVI switching in the 990, 970, and 1070).

Yeah, just highlights why the 990 is so special.

I can't wait mine to arrive to see how my system will perform with all of the latest digital goodness.

Thnaks for all the posts

So from all this I would take an HDMI video output and run it through a DVI socket on the 990.

It would pass through the full 1080P signal from a high def player to the Sony Ruby with no encryption issues....?

How would i feed the audio?

Sorry if this a dumb question.

Rob

Robert: I may be missing something, and I'm nowhere near the expert gonk is...but...that said...the audio would be passed just as you would anyway. My SONY DVD has HDMI out and the usual audio:coax, analog, optical. I run the audio thru my 990. DVI handles the HDMI video signal. I have HDMI cable and HDMI to DVI adaptors.

Here's a source I may have mentioned in a previous post. I buy my coax and optical from www.totalsignal.com and they're also on ebay. I just go to their page and order what I want.

I recently bought LFM-1 and it needed to go a fair distance from the 990 (room config'n, size and furniture). I bought a 50 foot coax for cheap. Works well to feed LFM-1. I don't know if a think cheap RCA-RCA would be OK at that length, but I'm very happy with their cables. My .02 Hope this helps

Hi Robert,

To backup what nfaguys just said, yes, you would get an HDMI to DVI cable (Outlaw sells them for your convenience, I believe or you can also get them from BlueJeansCable.com). And yes, your HDMI devices, even those that are HDCP compliant will send a 1080i signal over the HDMI to DVI cable.

At least that's what I understand based on info that others have provided.

Basically think of an HDMI connector as a compacted version of DVI (albeit with the addition of audio just for confusion).

As far as moving the audio signal from your source to the 990, you would use either the normal L/R analog RCA out/ins, digital coax out/in or if available optical digital out/in...whichever you prefer and have available on your output device.

Hope that clears up any confusion. If not, my bad. Let us know and hopefully someone will make it clearer if needed.

It looks like we've got a good set of answers here - the short answer is an HDMI/DVI cable (simple adapters are also available, but in some cases you will have the problem of the HDMI connector being pulled loose by the weight of the DVI connector so I recommend a cable like the PDH ) to handle the video (all the way up to 1080p from Blu-ray) without any compromise. For audio, it's going to depend on the source component in question. If you are talking about any existing source component, a traditional digital audio cable (coaxial or optical) will handle the audio exactly the same as HDMI would. HD-DVD and Blu-ray offer some new audio formats that nearly all early adopters will be resorting to a mess of eight analog audio cables to transfer from player to receiver or processor; coaxial and optical digital will carry down-mixed DD 5.1 or DTS 5.1. Seriously, the 990's approach to this problematic issue is very nearly the best you can find, and doubly so in its price range.

Leave it to gonk to further clear up the situation.

I had completely forgotten about the multichannel sources.

Here I thought that SACD and the other multichannel CD formats were almost dead and it sounds like the HD DVD specs will bring them back to life, at least for the near future.

One thing I hope they change with HDMI is the connector. From what I've read it really needs to be made so it locks in somehow as it's pretty easy for current HDMI connectors to fall out or be pulled out.

I've heard that v1.3 may include a revision to the connector so it isn't so "fallout" prone. Pin-compatibility with previous versions would be necessary, of course, but the serious discussion of such a change is another reason that I look forward to HDMI really reaching maturity - in the meanwhile, my DVI connectors will be staying firmly in place.

Maybe they will do something like sata for computers, which initially had the same problem and fell out way too often. Some sort of extra tension on the cable is what I have seen, ala a steel clamp arrangement on the connector.

From what I've seen, the HDMI connector is basically a scaled-up cousin to USB or FireWire, and I don't think even some extra clamping inside the contact area of the connector will be enough to bare the weight of long cables hanging off the rear panel or big DVI adapters. They probably won't go with thumb screws, but they may try something like the locking tab of XLR's. Or they may do nothing...

Again: if I'm missing something, please correct me.
I don't see what the big deal is about using HDMI.
If I didn;t have external speakers, amp, pre/pro etc I would want the HDMI for audio as well as video.
So I guess I would have to say that I think carrying the audio is for me (and maybe most of us) superfluous. Like who cares...unless you need to send audio to your TV speakers.

Corrections welcomed if needed.Thanx

For any current hardware, it is purely a convenience - you can get the same data from point A to point B with standard digital audio cables, and if you have a receiver or processor you will need at least two cables anyway (two HDMI's from source to receiver to display or HDMI from source to display and digital audio from source to receiver). I seriously doubt that folks are really stressed about that scenario.

For HD-DVD and Blu-ray, you start getting into a different situation. The only digital audio output allowed that will carry the new audio formats is HDMI - coax and optical will get you a scaled-down Dolby Digital or DTS output, not DD+, TrueHD, or DTS-HD. Without HDMI support (true support - with audio - not just video switching with an HDMI connector), we're all stuck having to use 7.1 analog audio connections (eight more interconnects). That is what I see as the source of the fuss about HDMI support.

I guess I'm in the minority but the big deal about HDMI for me "today" is a way to get SACD and DVD-A into my Pre-Pro. I know these formats haven't taken off big time, but I have a pretty big collection of them. Right now there is no way to get those formats into the Pre/Pro digitally. Why spend money on a nice Pre/Pro if you are only going to use it as an Analog PreAmp? If HDMI isn't ready yet at least give me a Firewire connection until HDMI is done cooking.

Thanks very much for all the answers here. This is an awesome forum.

I've been in the video / audio space for many years. If I get confused I can only imagine the challenge looming for less experienced folk.

Again thanks
Rob

Hi guys,

I'm interested in getting the Pioneer DV-48AV DVD Player, as a dedicated SACD and DVD-Audio multichannel audio player, and running it through my Outlaw 990 to my 5.1 setup.

I'm a bit discouraged by obie_fl's post, which I've quoted above! Can someone please tell me the best way to connect the DV-48AV into my 990?

The DV-48AV has the following outputs:
* HDMI (can send either DSD or PCM audio from this output)

* Optical

* Coax digital

* 5.1 Analog (groan)

Also do I understand correctly that DVI doesn't carry audio data, so this means that using an HDMI-to-DVI cable between the DV-48AV's HDMI output to my 990's DVI input will produce video, but not audio?

Thanks for your help!
-Jeff

For DVD-Audio and SACD, you will need to use the multichannel analog. For DVD and CD, the optical or coaxial digital connection will work.
Correct. See my HDMI FAQ for the details of what HDMI is and how DVI relates to it.

As an aside, the list price on the 48AV is $299. I suspect it's available for less. We have been told to expect an announcement for OPPO Digital within the next week of a lower-cost Blu-ray player that would compliment their BDP-83 . If it arrives with a multichannel analog output, it could be an alternative. The BDP-83 supports DVD-A and SACD, so this new player likely will as well. The benefit is that if you want to have Blu-ray in the system alongside DVD-A and SACD, you need all three in one chassis so they can all use the multichannel analog input.

Thanks. Why am I not able to go from the DA-48AV's optical output into my 990? I assume the DV-48AV can push a PCM bitstream through this output just as it can through the audio portion of its HDMI output. Also, I have successfully routed the 5.1 audio from my Mac Mini optical output into the 990 for movie-viewing, so I know "it works".


The 48AV isn't made anymore, and therefore shows up on eBay for $50 to $100. It's a great low-risk way of checking out SACD and DVD-A audio without spending a ton of cash. That's my plan, at least.

If I like it, and the media doesn't prove to be too expensive given that it's a 99% dead (i.e., expensive collector's) format, I can definitely see a future upgrade to a more modern unit like the OPPO, which supports Blu-Ray as well.

-Jeff

As I said, for DVD and CD you can use the optical output. The problems arise when you move to DVD-Audio and SACD. DVD-Audio uses multichannel PCM, which requires too much bandwidth for a coaxial or optical cable. The best you can do with an optical connection on DVD-Audio is downmixed PCM stereo. SACD is even more prohibitive. The raw data is in DSD format, which HDMI can carry, but many players convert DSD to PCM internally. Either way, the multichannel DSD or PCM bitstream is too big for optical or coaxial. On top of that, though, SACD includes copy protection restrictions that basically "turn off" the optical and coaxial outputs. That leaves you with either HDMI or analog output as the only viable options.

Your Mac Mini outputs either PCM stereo (just like CD's) or a lossy bitstream such as Dolby Digital or DTS (just like DVD's). It is equivalent to a standard DVD player, not a DVD-A or SACD player.
Sounds like a good plan.

Ah, I see. So I can utilize the optical input on my 990 for 5.1 audio from Dolby Digital / DTS sources, because the audio stream is lossy-compressed enough to fit within the bandwidth of optical (and probably by no coincidence).

But 5.1 audio from DVD-A has too much bandwidth for optical, and additionally copy protection limits SACD digital output only to HDMI, so lowest common denominator is that I've got to resort to analog.

I'm glad I asked. I saw a thread on AVSforum.com that indicates that the Pioneer DV-48AV applies a 200Hz high-pass filter to the signal coming out of its analog outputs, which cannot be disabled . I can only assume this used to be a "feature" to prevent blowing out smaller satellites? It's a bug, not a feature, now.

If I were able to use its HDMI digital output, I could circumvent the DV-48AV's on-board 200Hz high-pass filter and this wouldn't be an issue, but since I am forced to use its analog outputs to my 990, it makes no sense to buy a super-high-quality audio player that has a fixed 200Hz high-pass!

Looks like it's back to the drawing board to find another SACD player that better matches my setup. Watch me eat my words and end up shelling out $300 for an OPPO (or $1399 for the 997 with HDMI inputs?)

Thanks again for the technical details, it's very helpful for me.

-Jeff

You might also look for a different used player. There are universal DVD-A/SACD players from Denon, Yamaha, and OPPO as well as ones from Pioneer. I've used several of the OPPO DVD-A/SACD players, and you may be able to find a used 981HD or 980H for under $150. The 970HD would also do what you want, although it may cost more - it's the only one of those players that can be made to scale DVD output via component video, so there's always been a bit more demand for it on the used market. THe 983H would also work, but they still sell for their original $399 list price (or sometimes higher) on the used market.

If you did get the OPPO player that's due to be announced this week (and I'm guessing that $300 is a reasonable price point to expect), it would also give you Blu-ray.

Hay guy's, what's the big problem with 5.1 analog?
Yeh, it needs 6 cabels, but that won't break the bank and WAF generally doesn't have a bearing on the rat's nest behind the components.
For years the industry leaders advertised their equipment as being "future proof" because they had 5.1 or 7.1 inputs. Well the future is now.

Generally, nothing is wrong with 5.1 analog. Some issues were brought up in the past day or two relating to using the Pioneer DV-48AV with the 990, which you can see in the messages above.

If the 200Hz issue didn't exist for this player, 5.1 analog would work fine for me. Unfortunately it does exist, so I need to find a different SACD / DVD-A player.

-Jeff

'Scuse me, guys, but isn't this "200Hz issue" really a 200KHz issue? 200Hz is about a half octave above the subwoofer crossover range.

Nope. The AVSforum message I reference in my post clearly states the DV-48AV has a 200 HERTZ high-pass filter on its 5.1 analog outputs:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14421922#post14421922

-Jeff

We got a Philips BDP-5010 BlueRay/DVD/CD player (approved by Consumer Reports) for Christmas and it's now connected to my 990 along with the Pioneer DV587A DVD/SACD/DVD-Audio/CD player I already had. The two of them together cost a bit more than half the list price of the Oppo (which by the way was at the top of the Consumer Reports list). Integrating the three units was kind of a kick. The Philips shares the 990's two DVI inputs with my SA cable box, both via Outlaw adapter cables, and of course the third Outlaw cable runs from the 990 output to my Panny 42" plasma TV. Audio-wise, an optical cable feeds the Philips's digital output to the 990 while a Mapleshade Ultrathin coax does the honors for the Pioneer. Both units play CDs and both play DVDs; the Pioneer handles high-def audio (so it still has 5 analog cables to the 990) and the Philips plays BR. The Philips does fine on DVDs, I was pleased to find, so I can now remove that bulky triple video component cable that ran from the Pioneer to the 990.
And everything works fine. We tested it on "The Dark Knight": terrific video quality and awesome sonics over my Maggie 1.6s. Now I hope to find another BR film that's maybe a little lighter.

Not doubting your message, jishaq, but it surprises me. A 200-Hz rolloff on the "5" past of the 5.1 outputs means an awfully high crossover to the ".1" subwoofer. Wouldn't directional effects, or the absence of direction for sounds in the low-midrange, be audible? Maybe someone else can clear this up.

My Pioneer DV587A doesn't seem to lack bass on its 5.1 outputs (which I use for the couple of DVD-Audio and SACD discs I have), so this puzzles me.

Oops - I meant "part", not "past" on the first line of that last message/

I don't doubt jishaq's 200Hz crossover - there were some really unwise bass management choices made for multichannel analog outputs on both Pioneer and Panasonic players. (Panasonic liked 120Hz at one time, and may still favor that.) Your Pioneer may not have the same crossover point. With the 990, though, you likely have the speakers all set to "large" - which should bypass any such crossovers inside the player, allowing the Model 990 to get the bass management right.

Which makes me wonder... If the 48av's bass management is defeatable, it wouldn't be an issue for users pairing it with the Model 990. If the bass management is part of the analog circuit, though, there's nothing to be done except shrug and question the sanity of whoever at Pioneer signed off on that particular design decision.

It surprised me too, and the more I think about it, the less sense it makes. Upon re-reading the AVSforum thread, I think I've misunderstood what they are speaking about. I think they are stating that the Pioneer DV-48AV applies a *low*-pass filter to the 5.1 analog subwoofer output. Given the context of the messages, that makes the most sense.

If the price is right on eBay, I'll still pick up the DV-48AV and just deal with any shortcomings its 5.1 analog outs have, until I can upgrade my 990 pre/pro to one that has HDMI input.

I'll follow up with my findings.

-Jeff

You're right, Gonk, my Maggie 1.6's are set to "large" since I have no subwoofers, and on "The Dark Knight" the bass seemed "adequate" (as Rolls-Royce dealers used to say when asked the car's horsepower).

Speaking of Maggies, I wonder greatly how the new 1.7 will do on bass, and also on reducing the vertical directionality in the high end which to me is the 1.6's chief SQ weakness.

I think the Maggies are intrinsically limited in their bass output by their very nature, so I don't think the 1.7s will be able to stretch much lower.

I built a pair of dipole woofers (each with 2 12" sub drivers) and a custom active crossover from John at musicanddesign.com to go with my 1.6s, and now they truly are large. Flat response all the way down to 25 Hz. Then two big subs to get the last 8Hz or so below that. You are definitely missing some stuff in The Dark Knight.

But for music, I usually just bypass bass management and don't use the subs.

How come you aren't running any kind of low end augmentation for yours, out of curiosity?