Bass Management Summary

OK...

One thing I cannot help but notice is the great deal of confusion about the various modes and subtleties of the 990's bass management (i.e. S/PDIF / TOSLINK / 2-ch analog / 7 ch analog depending on large / small / sub etc).

So, just to take everyone's pulse on this, Here goes:

How many of you (sorry, us) think it would be a good idea for the Outlaws to do something as simple as a Microsoft Excel workbook, wherein each sheet describes what happens to what input as a consequence of setttings?

Granted, this seems like a lot of work, but my belief is that once done, a simple reference point would be available for us all, and we would know what to expect. It would also serve as a nice template to cross reference when the update (whenevr that arrives) comes out.

My guess is that much of the frustration and consternation expressed here is due to the 'unpleasant surprise' factor, and I suspect that the Outlaws would concede that they'd field less anxious complaints if users knew up front exactly how, and under all forseeable I/O configs (inupt mapping vs / in conjunction with size and sub settings as well as modes (bypass, stereo, upsample)), things were going to operate.

Again, maybe I'm nuts, but my take is that I would rather have a tabular summary (again, via something as simple as Excel sheets in a workbook) than pouring through thread after thread, trying to interpret what has been said / observe what has been corrected in wirtten form.

Who would like a complete tabular summary from The Outlaws for their 990? A quick show of hands please...

Mark

I've thought about this a bit, and the basic concept is valuable - but I'm starting to wonder if a table is the appropriate format. A series of Excel worksheets could probably work, but it loses the "at a glance" convenience of a single central presentation of data (meaning we run the risk of leaving folks just as confused as they are already). Putting everything in one table is something I've mulled over a bit this week (building on some past experience with other charts ), and it gets messier than I'd like in a hurry. I've got an Excel file on my desktop right now in which I started trying to develop the format, and I haven't been satisfied with what I've come up with so far. I haven't given up on finding a useful format yet, but I also wonder if a written form might work just as well or better.

I think it's a great idea. I would even go one further and create a second tabular form that could be updated (assuming confirmation) of how things are INCORRECTLY WORKING.

I don't desire anyone to tell me how it should work, but some might. After I was educated on the intent of the bass management in bypass, that question went from a "how" to a "why" for me. They simply pointed out that they had designed it that way. Ok, next question. There could be some benefit to other users as well to spell out the workings of the entire system of bass management.

My (and others) problem now is not "how", nor "why", but rather "does not". As in, the product does not work as as it should. A crossover is a crossover. Either it functions properly or it does not. I'll never figure out why they put a full range signal to the sub on analog bypass, but the bottom line is I really don't care. After they said it was designed that way, I now know it is properly functioning. The other modes, however, are not.

Guys, this whole BM issue has been blown WAY out of hand.

I ran a sweep tonight through the 7.1 inputs and there WAS BM. This answers your fears Capt of BM being applied to the 7.1 analog inputs. It is. There was no bass output above 150Hz with a xover setting of 80Hz.

BM is NOT applied using 2 ch analog input, however, Outlaw is working on this issue.

Now what is the big deal?

BM is a complex issue, and I think the Outlaws do us a disservice by not clearly documenting the intent of the BM features. For such a powerful facility, the few paragraphs in the manual do not shed a lot of light on the subject.

I think the majority of us would not be able to predict with any degree of confidence how the subwoofer output will function in any given scenario.

Whether in the manual, appendix to the manual or on the web site, a clearly written description, most likely in the form of a matrix or table, showing the intended influences (modes, settings, inputs, cross overs) and outcomes on the subwoofer output (BM, none, full range) would be a substantial improvement to the user manual which does not appear to have been written with a discerning user in mind.

A consequence of the lack of such a clear description are the questions, speculation, frustration, investigations and confusion that arise in this forum.

With a clear description in place we would be better placed to distinguish amongst:

• Features which are not working properly
• Features which were not well thought out
• Features which do not meet our needs

Amongst this confusion, there are also the issues of acknowledged problems and problems being addressed in the next or future patches.

Those of us who work with or deal with complex software or hardware products know that there are always issues and limitations. Typically known issues are documented along with a patch or release, and that likely would have been helpful in this case (ie known problems with release 1.0).

With all the issues raised in this forum and the support calls the Outlaws have received, there is an internal list of reported problems, and of those, a subset would form an internal list of problems the Outlaws are working on.

In this forum we see a filtered copy of those lists scattered throughout numerous posts by different individuals. I suggest that this probably adds more confusion than clarity because the SNR can be pretty low without extensive research through many posts.

I would support a call for Outlaw to clearly articulate which are the acknowledged problems and which problems they are working on.

Outlaw's most knowledgeable and vocal 990 advocates most likely hang out in this forum, and providing them with clear documentation, statements and facts would certainly reinforce the voice they provide in the HT community.

Well, the only "problem" I am aware of is no BM on 2ch analog and not being able to bypass the 990 BM using 7.1..

It has been confirmed that BM works as advertised on 7.1 analog and digital inputs.

I agree there are a few user gliches that need to be worked out.

Braidkid,

Thanks for clarifying the 7.1 input BM. I had not got around to testing that yet.

I don't believe this issue has gotten out of hand. What's the big deal? Well for starters, I purchased the unit to do bass management on two channel analog sources; and it should, but does not. Secondly, Outlaw has a 30 day return policy and I have a defective unit that they were telling me worked as designed. Lastly, prospective buyers as well as current customers deserve to know that this product is not doing what it was designed to do.

The "big deal" is getting the fix confirmed and started, which has apparently been accomplished. I value my money more than to "make do" with my purchases.

In another thread, Capt said that the 990's BM in digital PCM input also seemed not to work as intended. Then does this mean that the problem is with only Capt's unit? Which information should I consider to be correct? I'm talking about 2-CH PCM digital input, not the Dolby Digital / DTS 5.1 or 7.1.

As far as I know, I am the only one to ever mention the PCM issue. I stated in another post that I won't be going into it because other peoples units are apparently working. I think you should assume you are safe for 2 channel PCM inputs until someone else speaks out.

Actually there is a problem with BM on PCM inputs. Double bass depending upon how you switch thru the crossover modes. Read the long thread by netguy, I explained it well in that thread.

My primary audio use (opposed to HT) would be in 2 channel bypass mode in order to use my L/R+sub for music listening.

My sub is powered but afaik has no innate ability to set a crossover - that is done currently in my (Onkyo) receiver.

I want to send 2 ch. analog to the 990 from my outboard non-os DAC, and I don't want the signal processed or upsampled in any way, just amplified and sent to the speakers. My understanding is that's what bypass mode is for. Is that correct?

If so, it also seems that I'd be affected by this BM issue until the software is fixed not to send a full-range signal to the subwoofer in 2 ch. analog bypass mode? Is that correct?

Thanks for any input/help!

Joncourage,

Outlaw told me the full range sub signal in analog bypass was an intentional design with speakers set to small. Because of that, I am not sure they consider this a bug. I don't think anyone (except Outlaw) knows whether this will be addressed or changed for bypass users. They must, however, address the stereo and upsample modes. In these modes bass management using crossovers is intentional & expected...and currently not working. With a full range sub signal currently being produced on all analog modes, you would need an internal crossover on your sub to defeat it.

My understanding of the analog bypass mode and the sub getting a full-range signal is that bypass mode by definition bypasses all sections of the unit that could apply any bass management. For those people who have analog bypass engaged with speakers that are full-range, bass management is not needed - thus they already have their speakers set to large. For most people, the mains are not truly capable of that (particularly if you are running bookshelf speakers that may start rolling off around 60Hz or above), and bypass will leave them a bit bass deprived. The solution apparently was to sum a copy of the left and right analog signals and pass it to the sub when the mains were set to small and analog bypass was enabled - which, in the absence of any A/D conversion to allow for digital bass management, was pretty much the only way to deliver anything to the sub. That's my understanding as to why the small speaker/full range sub signal in analog bypass is an intentional design decision. As you say, of course, this behavior is avoidable in other modes.

If I may just chime in here...

I think my question (the one that started this thread) has been answered, if indirectly.

That is, plowing through this thread just reinforces (to me anyway) that a thoroughgly documented summary of the bass management in tabular (or other) form would indeed be a good thing.

Mark

Thanks Capt. and gonk.

Gonk - what you've said would seem to make sense to me (limited understanding that I may have).

If BM is achieved only with digital signal processing, then it makes sense that in analog bypass mode - when I believe one of the primary intentions is to have a non-digitized, analog signal straight to the amp/speakers - then determining what part of the signal goes to the sub would seem not do-able. Hence the need for a sub that itself has a configurable crossover (didn't realize that existed, and my current sub certainly can't do that, so looks like I'll have to factor the cost of a new sub into the purchase of a 990 if I went this route, since I do not currently have full-range speakers, and as stated my primary use for audio would be analog-bypass in order to use my non-OS DAC).

If you guys have had the patience to read through all that, please let me know if my understaning is correct. Advice on how to proceed wouldn't hurt any either, since my developing understanding inclines me to think this isn't an "outlaw-only" issue, but that I'll find the same anywhere I look (a basic technology issue?).

Any chance someone from Outlaw can chime in on that?

Thanks!

Your understanding matches mine, at least. Is your sub powered, or do you have a separate amp driving it? Generally powered subs include a low-pass crossover that would work well for these purposes. There are external products that will do it, too, such as the Outlaw ICBM (which provides 6.1 analog bass management) and the Paradigm X-30 (better suited to this case), but it may not be necessary.

Thanks.

So if your subwoofer has it's own crossover, I take it you can set that where you want it, and even though it's getting a full-copy signal of the L/R channels, the sub will only reproduce the frequencies below the crossover point you've set? (I'm learnin', I think...

If that's the case, then the analog bypass issue of copying a full-range signal to the sub probably isn't that big of a deal to those with configurable sub-woofers, I'd think.

The only thing that seems to get some conflicting info then is whether the analog bypass signal is digitized (and processed by the 990's internal DACs). Since I want to use my outboard non-OS DAC this is important to me.

Anyone clear on that?

That's right - you can simply set the crossover as high as it goes so that it filters out the high frequencies and lets all the low stuff through.

The times that an analog source is digitized are when it is a stereo input that is not in bypass mode or when it is a 7.1 direct input and the 990's speakers are set to large.

EXACTLY EXACTLY!!!

As I've said before, this issue with BM has been blown way out of proportion. It is sad when this concern has been spread to other forums discouraging prospective buyers who would not be affected.

The only real issue I have with BM is the fact you cannot disengage BM during 7.1 playback without setting speakers to Large. I'm sure this will be corrected in the upcoming update.

Some of you guys are missing the point. The bypass mode was designed that way, the "Stereo" and "upsample" modes were not. There have been multiple confirmations that the sub signal is full range on Stereo and upsample modes which makes the bass management completely useless for any analog input for those using a subwoofer, not just those who want to use bypass.

If that is not a big deal on a piece of audio equipment costing over a thousand dollars, I don't know what it would take for you guys to say what a big deal would be.

As to using the subs crossover...if the digital inputs are correctly bass managed, then every time you switch from a digital input to an analog input you must get up and change the subwoofer crossover to avoid cascading crossovers. One input sends one signal range and another sends a different one.

How many potential buyers have a subwoofer and want to use the CD analog inputs...or any analog input for that matter? My guess is quite a few. Those potential buyers deserve to know the 990 WILL NOT ACCOMPLISH what it states it will do. If anyone thinks it's a shame that they find out about this before they buy it, well then...that's just plain mean.

Capt - I've talked to Outlaw recently, and I can tell you that they are serious about making sure that the 990's bass management works as designed in every mode. I don't believe that Braidkid is questioning any of that, anyway - I think he's referred to some debate that has gone on about the way that stereo analog bypass was designed to work.

I have been on the fence until the 7700 was shipping. I am about to order a 7700/990 combo and also Axiom speakers, including their M80ti towers. Thus, I will have large mains and "small" surrounds. Will this be a problem for direct inputs? I use these now with my "cheap" Sony receiver, and I assume the audio will be best with the 5.1 inputs rather than either coax or optical digital cables.

As I understand it, I should be able to run a 2.1 set up for audio only, if I desire, with anything below 40hz sent to my HSU subwoofer. For home theater, SACD or DVD-A I will be running 7.1 and will want anything lower than 80 HZ sent to the subwoofer. Is this a problem with different sized speakers, or is everyong complaining for issues that won't affect me?

Please let me know before I order.

The 990 should have no problem with this arrangement, although if you set the M80ti's to "large" you won't have 2.1 - you'd probably want to set them to "small" with a crossover of 40Hz. My Paradigm Studio/60's have a similar frequency response to the M80ti's, and this sort of arrangement has worked well for me. (While on the subject of 2.1 playback, The Capt has indicated that he believes all stereo playback modes are exhibiting a full-range subwoofer signal, even though only the stereo analog bypass mode is intended to behave this way - I haven't had a chance to verify this, and I haven't seen anything to indicate whether there is definitely a software issue or a hardware glitch in Capt's unit.) I'd only recommend the 5.1 analog connection for DVD-Audio or SACD - the 990's DSP modes are only going to be available with Video DVD's if you use the coaxial or optical inputs, and the 990's DAC's are no slouches. Currently the way that bass management works with the 7.1 input is two ways: if all speakers are set to large, then there is no bass management; but if some or all speakers are set to small, the input is converted to digital and the digital bass mangement (quadruple crossovers and all) is applied. There have been several requests for an extra setting that would serve as a standalone toggle for this behavior ("pure analog bypass" or "digital bass management" for the 7.1 direct input), but we haven't heard if this will be included in a future firmware update.

I spoke with Outlaw today after reading this thread yesterday to be sure of how the LFE was distributed. The person I spoke to read all of the posts and verified that Gonk was correct in his explanation of how LFE was applied with regards to small/large speakers and 2 channel/multi channel listening

Gonk:
Thanks for the reply. I forgot to add what you stated -- that movies would be watched through a digital connection for DD decoding. What concerns me about setting the speakers to small is having too much bass. Does Bass Management include the ability to set different db levels for the subwoofer out? I don't want to have to physically turn down the gain on the subwoofer when switching from audio to movies, but I also don't want to miss the ability to get really low bass from the sub while using the superior speakers for everthing above about 40HZ. Am I worrying too much? Before I spend $7,000 on a set-up (with speakers), I want to be sure I am not wasting my time.

Thanks.

The system calibration should help with this primarily - you calibrate the system for an even response from all channels, including the sub, so that you don't have that problem. Movie soundtracks get the vast majority of their deep rumble from the LFE track, whereas music (aside from pipe organs) rarely dips below 50Hz or so. If you are still worried, you may be a good candidate for the 990's two-channel sub offset - this is a feature that allows the sub to be tuned down a few dB (up to about 6dB of reduction) when in any stereo mode. I use this with about a -2dB adjustment for music listening.

The biggest issue i have with 990 BM is that I don't have a place to install the 990 yet, so I don't own one. An oversight I intend to fix ASAP!

This is the last post I will ever make on this subject...and yes, I heard that sigh of relief.

I don't believe there are problems with my unit, I know it to be fact. Other 990 owner's units are exhibiting the EXACT same quirks, so unless all of our units fell off the same pallet, this is a native firmware issue.

The response posted by Brad225 is typical of the problems encountered when trying to get to the bottom of this.

Number one, LFE distribution has nothing to do with rerouted bass in analog stereo inputs. LFE has only to to with specific digital formats. It is quite probable that the the response from tech support was 100% accurate on how the unit handles the LFE channel in with those formats. For two channel analog listeners wishing to incorporate a subwoofer, the subject of LFE is of ZERO consequence. The area of bass management is what should be of concern, specifically the lack of it.

Secondly, my experience with Outlaw tech support is that they are more than knowledgeable as to how the unit is supposed to work. I can call them up right now and they will gladly tell me how the bass management system works. The problem is between what is supposed to work and what is really happening are two very different things.

From all the private email messages I have received because of this topic, it is apparent to me that there is a lot of interest in the 990 from people without much knowledge of pre/pros. That's great, because the 990 would be an excellent product to begin exploring HT and music with. But they also have been given some bad advice by some users of this forum, Outlaw tech support, and diehard Outlaw defenders. The bottom line on this is this:

If you use two channel analog sources and expect the subwoofer to properly integrate into your stereo listing, you are in for a nasty surprise. Large or small speaker settings both have issues when it comes to using the sub on these inputs. Those of us who have a 990 already must limp by with a workaround of using the subs internal crossover (God help you don't have a passive sub), but think twice before you walk into the product thinking a monkey-rig workaround is as acceptable as a working product. And for petes sake, don't buy another component to compensate for the 990's problems!

Here is the thing, I use 100hz xovers on my rear speakers, LFE sometimes goes quite high as well. Because of these 2 reasons, I would have to either leave my sub xover off (as I want it) or set it to some value greater than 100hz. If I don't, material will be lost. Now, with my mains being set to 40hz (or large for that matter), and a full range signal signal going to the sub, things ain't kosher. Meaning, the ever evil double bass issue. So, I guess I could reach in the back of my sub, and using a mirror, re-adjust the sub each time, no?
I understand the "workaround" statement was meant as a "better than nuthin" temporary bandaid, but I just need to say that it isn't really a fix, per say, just better than nuthin is all.
Now, I believe the outlaws when they say a fix is coming. Actually, I hope they are working on a good autoeq as well; maybe fix the stupid lack of current mode display and add ability to REALLY set a default mode depending on input type. Hell, they might even fix the 7.1 input so it can bypass A/D/A, while allowing the other inputs to have digital multi xover (sort of like the 970). Maybe they are working on a surprize that I hadn't thought of! I think these things might be in the works...I only hope this issue, and the inpatience of some (and, I suppose a understandable impatience, not having the faith that I do) doesn't leave us with a update that leaves out plans that were originally on the table, so as to get the fix out to stop the noise on the board. Of course, it could be argued that the noise here is the only reason that it is getting a fix at all...hard to say. Anyhow, thanks everyone for all the tests that I hadn't had time to do (I just listen and say "now, that ain't right, should I throw more money at the system honey?") And hope this all wraps up nicely soon enough...

To The Captain:

Just as you have said that this is your last post on this topic, this will be my first and only post. We have been meeting with Etronics, the manufacturer of the 990 and the both of us are collaborating on a comprhensive update of the software, which will be available to all customers by download when it is completed and field/beta tested. As you might suspect we read and analyze every comment in this forum.However, as we said from the very beginning, we do not use this forum to promote or cheerlead our point of view. The Saloon is the forum of our customers and potential customers.

As we learn more about the 990 behavior and the desires of our owners we constantly strive to improve its' software behavior. As has been mentioned by other Outlaws, this is a complicated process. Every code change often has other unintended side effects. Therefore it takes time to "get it right"

We also stand on our own six year track record of our customer support. We have assembled a list of changes that we want to see implemented and are spending a great deal of time ensuring that theey behave as intended.We promise that the software changes will make the 990 even better. Will these changes address every wish? We doubt it. There is always one or two unusual cases that might require a totally different approachnot possible in the 990 platform. However,what we are working on should satisfy most of the issues pointed out in this forum.Please give us the benefit of the doubt and let us get our job completed.

For the majority of you, we are pleased with your reaction to this remarkable product. Thank you for reading this. Now back to the dungeons.

Peter Tribeman

President,

Outlaw Audio

OK, now I'm impressed, Capt. You lured the bossman into our little sandbox. I think they're really and truly serious about this one.

Thanks Peter
Good to hear from you here, and applaud your living night and day in the dungeons of design...

Did I mention to everyone that the 990 has outstanding performace on the D/A section, bettern than many high dollar solutions I have heard over the years on maggies (believe me, my biamped 20r would tell me otherwise). This machine is easy on the sensitive ears I call my own. The balanced XLR section is a serious improvement as well; the very high output levels needed by the inefficent maggies takes it's toll in distortion on many a preamp output stage. The sigle ended is nice, but man that XLR connection is ROUND boy...

Okay, now Peter, about that sonic holigraphy mode I spoke to about at the HES; you know, with the use of height channels creats a spherical illusion...you will add this in my personally configured update, yes?

Well, I have to break my own word. Since that post was directed ONLY to me, I guess I need to respond.

To Peter Tribeman:

If you will look back at some of my other posts, you might see I understand more than some here about the complications you are facing. My hypothetical "we need to give Outlaw the benefit of the doubt" post outlined some probably true, some probably not true, potential problems you are facing. I certainly don't question your desire or ability to attack this problem, nor have I ever attacked or misrepresented the past performance of Outlaw. You have more money of mine in your pocket than from just a 990 . Most of all...to the best of my knowledge I am not hindering your ability to accomplish this task. I will "let you get your job done" as I always have, by being 1500 miles away from you.

In the course of this issue, several persons have emailed me to continue discussions further. It is evident after reading some messages that some of these people have been given the wrong information. Not only that, but they are wondering how to get around the issue, what the impacts might be, etc.
My last post (regardless of how you interpret it) is not an attack on Outlaw over this issue. It is an expression of surprise that some potential buyers are willing to spend even more money than the initial outlay for the 990, just to make it work right (such as the gentleman looking into a powered sub to get an internal crossover). None of that is needed, as the 990 will eventually be fixed to work as intended. As tough as it is on your sales; prudent buyers should wait until the issue is fixed before plunking down their money and making due, IMHO. It could be argued that Outlaw's stellar reputation would be better served, Mr. Tribeman, were Outlaw to fully list the problems and not distribute more units until a fix is implemented. Some would construe acting otherwise to be..lets say...uncaring.

For your future benefit, here are some tidbits a person with your distinquished position MAY not know regarding this whole process.

Not once...ever...has anyone contacted me to discuss my problems with the product. I would have at least thought to call the rabble-rouser and get the skinny straight up, maybe even prove him wrong. Has not happened yet, and now it won't do any good.

My service ticket was closed WITHIN MINUTES of activation when I reported my issues. No exploration, no investigation, no confirmation.

To all the Outlaw out there, continue enjoying your products. Outlaw distributes a good product at a fair price. There is great value in what they are attempting to do. As for me, I believe my time here is at an end. You will now be getting my unit back, and I will vacate your cyber premisis for good. If that was your intention by excluding me from the customers whose reaction you valued, I am now more than happy to oblige. I guess the answer is you lose a few potential customers like me and it's no big deal in the online retail market I suppose. I would beg to differ.

Eric Dotseth (AKA The Capt.)

(singled out as) President,

My 990 don't work right club.

Nobody expects every product to be perfect; nobody expects fixes to problems to be instantaneous. People do, I think, reasonably expect that when a real, significant problem is found in a device they've purchased, the manufacturer will be apologetic for selling them a defective product, rather than SCOLDING them for having the temerity to air displeasure.

The Capt, I am sorry to hear that you'll be departing the forum and parting company with your 990. You've offered some useful insight during your time here. If you ever change your mind, I don't think we're going anywhere.

This forum exists to allow folks to air displeasure, or pleasure, or confusion, or any other emotion or viewpoint (short of outright nastiness toward another person or group of people). That's why we can have open debates like this one (complete with differing opinions, viewpoints, and whatnot) about this very topic without the manufacturer nuking posts. In the case of Peter's post, he seemed intent more than anything else to make it clear to The Capt and other 990 owners (and anybody else who stops by) that Outlaw is serious about both rooting out all issues in the 990's bass management along with any other bugs and about attempting to add improvements requested by us wherever the platform permits. We already knew that such work was underway, but there is some value to having it reinforced by senior management.

I feel a bit badly about all of this, as it has gone in a direction that I had not intended or envisioned. If you scroll up to the top (to my message that started all of this) you'll see that what I wanted to promote was a discussion on what we'd like to see from The Outlaws, and what would be the best way to affect that change.

I still have faith in The Outlaws. I think they will get it right, and frankly, until it is resolved, the issues / use cases will not kill me. I'm willing to "wait and see" as I think (believe) they are making a sincere and concerted effort to do right by us.

Mark

Gonk,

As always, your skills of diplomacy serve you well. I believe most participants here understand the value you bring to this forum, and I encourge you to continue it. There are many people here in need of your advice and you serve them well.

Keep the faith Old School. I too believe a sincere and concerted effort is being made that will one day result in a fix. Just be careful not to meddle too much, or you may be cast down to the minority of customers whose input (reaction) was not pleasing.