emotiva.. vs outlaw .. a comparison .. REALLY??

i read in a lot of forums .. and well this emotiva UL series is getting squaked abotu quite some bit .. and some are trying to compare the pre pro to the 990 .. which i believe to be inacurate .. maybe comparible to the 950 but not the 990 .. the 990 would be more comparable to their higher end model costing 2400 $ ... i am not trying to bash this emotiva because of course i have not personally heard one .. but they have supposedly had beta testers out since jan and i cant find review 1 on it .. also outlaw has proven themselves very strongly emotiva .. well they are affiliated with onix kenwood etc but ??? anyhow .. just looking for input ....

Emotiva is a very new product line for AV123. It is similar to their Onix and Perpetual Technologies lines - all three lines are manufactured for them (or in some cases by them using factories in China and Russia that they have at least a part ownership in). AV123 also sells some products such as Kenwood and Gefen that they are simply retailers for. The UL set (the $700 LMC-1 processor and its associated $600 LPA-1 amp) was originally due in March, with beta testing presumably kicking in back in January, but they've hit a number of delays (reminscent of the 950, actually) and last I heard are just now getting ready to do some public beta testing. That's why you haven't been able to find any reports. AV123's president sent a production sample to Dallas last week for a demonstration at a get-together in that area, which is the first public appearance for the unit.

I think it's too early to try to compare the Emo UL to the 990, largely because the specs on the UL are so incomplete. If you look at my pre/pro chart, Emotiva's "big dog" DMC-1 is actually a better feature-for-feature comparison to the 990 (in spite of the significant difference in cost) - in fact, the 990 has a few features more than the DMC-1 (more flexible bass management, DVI switching, headphone jack with Dolby Headphone processing, USB port), although it does lack the DMC-1's firewire input. Of course, the DMC-1's firewire input is not currently enabled to do anything, but presumably this could be changed at some point with a software update. Both the 990 and DMC-1 are based on existing designs: the Sherwood P-965 for the 990, and the Sunfire Theater Grand for the DMC-1. The UL set's processor has been getting compared to the 990 a lot in some forums, but as far as features go it's a somewhat uneven comparison. The UL will reportedly have very minimal bass management (no specifics on what it will have, but most likely it will be either a fixed 80Hz crossover or perhaps a single adjustable crossover similar to what the Model 1050 had) and no RS-232 port (as far as I've been able to ascertain). It sounds like it will have crossconversion from s-video and composite to component, but it will not have any digital video switching (they are offering Gefen's newest HDMI switchbox for an extra $100 in response to the 990's DVI switching). It will have Pro Logic IIx, but doesn't appear to have a headphone jack or Dolby Headphone. At one point in the UL's development, AV123 posted that the LMC-1 would sport Cirrus's "latest and best" chip, which would have suggested either the 49400 (the chip in the 990) or perhaps the 49500, either of which would allow for AV sync control similar to the 990's, but they have not confirmed this and there is some indication that they may be using a 49300 chip, which doesn't support AV sync. Basically, specs on the LMC-1 are still very scarce - not just nitty-gritty numbers, but features themselves. I think the idea of having a modern surround processor available for the price point of $700 or so is a great thing for consumers, and the LMC-1 has the potential to do very well on the market, but it's just to early to tell. Based on everything that AV123 has said online, much of the focus has been on optimizing the LMC-1's sound quality, which on a ground-up design like the LMC-1 or Model 950 can be very challenging, so presumably the LMC-1 will offer great sound in exchange for any features that might be getting left off. Will it sound better than the 990? We won't know that until several people get to try both in their own homes, which may be as soon as June (beta testing) or as late as the fall (figuring time for beta testing to wrap up, a first production run to roll off the line and make the trip from China, and the first reservations to be filled). In the meanwhile, I'm hoping at least one person will be able to compare the 990 to the DMC-1.

Well said Gonk, well said. That was quite a mouthful but extremely accurate. FYI, our own Jeffery Mercado is planning on doing a comparison hopefully this week or the next between the UL and 990, but the UL will be a beta unit that Mark Schifter has sent him to compare. Also, last word from AV123 is they are planning on mid june delivery, but that seems awfully soon to me. Like everything in this industry I take release dates with a big heaping grain of salt.

I've also read the mid-June delivery date a few times, but as a couple AV123 forum members pointed out, it wasn't clear if that was a date for shipments leaving the factory (which seems a bit tight with the beta testing just getting rolling but still doable if the beta test doesn't turn up any show-stopping bugs) or for shipments reaching people's hands (which seems almost impossibly soon to me).

jed i was actually waitingfor your input ... i ve seen u in other forums .. av123// now i read in one thread they were using a new motorola chip ..?? but nobody really knows .. it seems also that a lot of newcastle 9080 pre pro s are on ebay all the sudden .. maybe 990 buyers .. i see ATI is coming out with a ATP 6500 that is closer to the price range of the 990 prob 1500 +or - they say 1799 i believe on their site but usually a bit less.. 7 year warr. !! ati makes great amps but there prepros have always been way out of my $ range .. i think outlaw has brought to the electronics corps of america that reciever s arent all we want .. it seemed a gap in the last 5 years in real prepro production at the afordable level 500 to 1700 or so..some high high end folks were still at it but .. i wish emotiva luck we need more choices in prepros ..

Maybe Gonk has it right. If Jeff Mercado is listening out there, maybe you can get Mark to lend you a "Big Dog", as the real test is probably how well the 990 and the DMC-1 do in a head-to-head BLIND test. Based on features, the DMC-1 would have to sound a great deal better than the 990 to justify almost 3x the price. Other than the 1394 option, they actually seem to be reasonably well matched in features, but for almost $2K more, the DMC-1 ought to sound better, otherwise what's the value?

Travk13, I agree about the competition. Its great for us. The ATI looks interesting. I know AV123 is building an EMO Light but won't be due out till probably next summer at the earliest. I happen to be a loyal Outlaw and a loyal AV123er. Although I sincerely want both companies to succeed, I am not actively looking to hurt or help sales for either, I just want the best pre/pro for me. There are a lot of things I really like about the 990 and there are others I don't. Sonically it is good, better than I expected actually, but until I hear the UL I have nothing to really compare it to. Right now I would be more than satisfied with the 990 as a HT processor if it wasn't for the size. I almost passed on buying it because of that, but I am glad I changed my mind. In reality, I am so pleased with the 990 I could just pass on trying out the UL's and be happy, but since I have such a great respect for the Outlaws, particularly Scott Jackson, and the AV123 guys I want to be fair to both. May the best pre/pro (for me) win.

I learned about this preamp from the posts above, and went to their site, it sure is a sexy piece of equipment

It may be, but they are still very tight about releasing specs. As noted by Gonk, it omits some key features such as lip sync delay, 4-way bass management, USB input, DVI switching, it has fewer digital audio inputs, and most importantly, it does not appear as far as we know to have any provision for software upgrades. That, combined with what appears to be the use of an older (49326) processor, as opposed to the much more powerful 49400 in the 990 make it somewhat less than a full boat, particularly if they make you pay extra for bass management, which has already been stated and you have to pay $99 more to get an outboard digital video switch.

I say the better comparison is to put the 990 up against their "Big Dog" DMC-1. The 990 will most likely smoke it!

Is it well known that 49236 is less powerful I know it has less capabilities but is the processing not as good? in a sound comparison, would the difference be significant?

That is why they need to be tested side by side. You can't judge how something will sound only based on a chip, but it can tell you a lot about features, which we all know the 990 has more of. The simple truth remains that out of all the people that compare the 990 to the UL some will prefer the 990 and some will prefer the UL. There is no perfect sound for everybody.

Gosh I love unbiased fair opinions, thanks Jed M.

Thanks Mendes, but I think everybody has been pretty fair and unbiased so far. Have you decided to get on the 990 list or are you still waiting for more feedback?

I just received my LFM-1 last week.. and now since I lost the use of my Projector.. (although,I can borrow it on the weekends)

I'm a toss up between a new projector or the 990.. until I save up for both.. ( having 3 tree's cut down in the back yard costing me 2K, blew my audio budget at the moment)

I read Jeff's review over at AV123... 990 vs Nad It really looks like the 990 is what we expected, a true clone of the sherwood, by Jeff's comments, and that is a good thing. I'm heavily leaving towards the 990 at this point.. rather than a used B&K 50..

Household expenses can be a real zinger, sorry to hear about the trees. Do you have a direct view or rear projection alternative to the projector to tide you over? If not, the projector would seem like the ideal first step. Speaking as someone with a 32" display as my "big screen," I can only guess at projector withdrawal. On the other hand, if you do go with the 990 first I suspect that you'll at least have fun listening to it while the projector waits.

Not formally confirmed, but it appears that the UL has one potential issue that was a problem here with the 950 for some: Based on the initial postings, someone either here or on AV123 said that the UL does NOT have individual delays for the rear surrounds. Don't know if that is just for SR/SL vs. SBL/SBR, or for all four potential surround speakers. The 990 apparently has fixed the issue from the 990 in that there are individual delay settings for ALL channels. Can anyone who has seen the UL confirm this one way or the other?

Also, over on AV123 there has been a great deal of discussion by some as to whether or not the UL has any sort of lip sync delay. They have also not commented formally one way or the other on that, but since the UL seems to be based on the 49326, it is unlikely. Rather than speculate, perhaps someone from the group that saw the UL in Dallas can clear the air for us over here?

If these two things are "no", it would seem to reduce the value of the UL for those who need those adjustements, even though both are now common on contemporary AV receivers, and of course on the 990.

Anyone?

Gonk with that nice setup you have...all you need is a projector Once you go projector it is hard to go back.

Based on the bit of feedback I've seen posted by from last weekend's Dallas get-together, it appears confirmed that there is no lip sync delay. It wasn't clear to me how the delays are being handled, though, so I'm also looking forward to some more information in that regard. It could be that all four of the rear channels share a single delay (which would exactly match the 950's arrangement). Also, I think the bass management is limited to a single fixed 80Hz crossover. Our own JeffreyMercado is due to take part in the public beta test, so I suspect he'll be able to answer

I was hot on the UL, but now it's becoming clear that it will have a very difficult time competing with the 990. Over at AV123 as some of you may have read, someone even started a thread that said "talk me out of buying a 990", so really I think that unless the UL has exceptional sound quality, I think allot of UL sales will be heading toward Outlaw. Since, like Outlaw AV123 is an OEM product, I have doughts of it being far ahead of the 990 in terms of sound quality. I don't see a price advantage since, both companies are using the same internet direct business model. Just my 2 cents.. but time will tell..

Hi guys. I'm a regular poster over at av123 (AND Axiom, AND AVS, etc.) Being a happily satisfied owner of an ICBM, I hope that qualifies me as an Outlaw.

I'm having a lot of trouble understanding why people feel the UL and 990 are comparable products. To me, they are completely different animals.

Just for the sake of argument, let's assume that both preamps are well made, quality units that sound very good. Obviously if one unit sounds measurably better than the other, all this is moot.

I see the 990 as as a feature rich, entry level preamp. I use the term "entry level" based on price alone, and not quality. So many of the preamps we hear so much about seem to cost considerably more. Based on it's features, the 990 appears to be a real bargain.

I see the UL as a (relatively) bare bones budget preamp which can open up the world of separates to many who could never afford to go with an Outlaw preamp/amp combo, or, for that matter, any other preamp/amp combo currently available. Does anyone know of a $700 preamp that is worth discussing? (I mean that as a genuine question, NOT a challenge).

The UL costs $700 and the 990 costs $1100. That's over 50% more than the UL (or, if you prefer, the UL costs 37% less than the 990).

So, I see the two preamps appealing to two, very different demographics. Those who can't afford the 990 will be very glad to see the UL. For those who CAN afford it, based on it's features, the 990, to me, is the obvious choice.

Doesn't it always seem to come down to money?

Hi Ajax! 'Bout time you posted over here. Yeah, it's the guy who bought your BFD!

And I agree.....two different targets. Where the sound quality may be close or even indistinguishable from each other, the feature set will probably be the deciding factor for many, along with price. If I were in the market for a pre/pro right now, the 990 would be my first choice as I need SACD/DVD-A bass management capability. The UL would probably be closer to my budget, though it is still out of reach for me at this time.

Hi, I have been lurker for the last couple of weeks, and in the market for a pre/pro. The UL and 990 intrigue me.

With the UL, folks seem to be emphasizing sound quality as its strong trait. If this is the case, I have trouble understanding why an amplifier for zone 2 was included. This goes against traditional thinking of seperating the amp stage from the preamp stage, and the main reason for seperates. Also, the single 80hz crossover seems to be a limitation for getting the best possible sound when integrating mains and a sub.

Because of the sound quality emphasis, what am I missing with the above two features or lack there of? They do not add to sound quality, do they?

Steven

I don't see a problem with the two being compared. After all, what was the $899 950's biggest competition when it was released? Yep, the $1500 Rotel 1066. Face it, these are the two hot entry level processors and most people in this market don't see $400 as a huge stepping stone, just like they didn't see $600 as a huge stepping stone 3 years ago.

Ajax, I agree with you entirely. I have never seen a correlation between the 990 and the LMC-1 (the UL processor) - they are two very different beasts. The only things they have in common are (barring disasters for AV123) the year of their release (2005) and the distribution channel used to sell them (direct sale via the Internet). The LMC-1 is clearly as stripped down a processor as you can get and still hope to be able to sell in today's market, which is something that cannot be said of the 990. In fact, I'm surprised there's been so little talk of comparing the Emotiva DMC-1 (the "big dog") to the 990. From the perspective of feature sets, those two are much more closely matched.

I think most people look at comparisons due to pricing structure/what they can afford, not features, because realistically somebody looking to spend $700-$1500 is not looking to spend $3000 regardless of the outcome. Its just a huge jump, where the UL and the 990, just like the 950 and 1066 are not.

Couple of quick comments as a 950 owner and AV123 speaker owner. I have to agree with Ajax and gonk I think it is two different product segments. When you factor in the amp the U/L combo becomes much more affordable then the 990 with amp to a first time buyer. Having not yet heard the 990 I’ll reserve judgment but I have read more then one review of the Sherwood Newcastle that criticizes it’s musical quality which gives me pause on the 990.

I also don't think it's is wise to just compare features of Pre/Pros you also have to factor in the processor and the analog section. Both the 990 and U/L along with the Sherwood and others are based on Cirrus chips. Someone said earlier that the 990 would blow the Big Dog Emotiva away…that’s just plain silly. I’m willing to concede that some would pick the 990 over the Motorola family Pre’s such as Emotiva, Sunfire and Anthem but I suspect most would still prefer the higher end components. If it is features you really crave look to the mid line receivers as they are usually quite a bit more feature rich then all but the most high end Pre/Pros.

From a personal viewpoint I see the 990 and U/L as something to tide me over until the next generation Pre/Pros with HDMI input and DD+ and DTS-HD get here. The question becomes for me is either the 990 or U/L enough of a step up to make it worthwhile? I’m thinking very seriously of ordering both units once the U/L starts shipping and letting my own ears decide in my room.

In theory I agree to some degree with Obie, Jack and Gonk. My point is regardless of how we want them to be compared, the price points will guarantee that they are compared against one another.

hi guys .. i've been sitting back reading all these great points between this thread i started and the (any negatives thread also.) .. it seems on this one we are back to my original statement .. the 950 and ul prepro are more alike or comparable and the 990 and dmc are closer feature wise .. i need to start a new thread for folks that are at a point i am ... i like the ul lmc for the reason i like the 950 .. they are based on their own base .. if that makes sense .. where the 990 is (sherwood base ) and the emo dmc .. sunfire theater grand based .. .. a sunfire prepro is ?? 4000 .. and a newcastle is 1599 ?? 1099 on net ...and yet the dmc was 2000 on pre order and is now back ordered at 3000 /// my new thread if you like to see will be what makes the outlaw 990 not a sherwood newcastle 965..

Have they mentioned which Cirrus chip is in the UL? I do not understand the reasoning for holding back specs. The same goes with the differences between their "Big Dog" and the Sunfire.

Yes they have. The DSP is the CS493263-CL per Greg Marberry of AV123. Beyond that a lot of details are still sketchy apparently due to some agreements with their OEMs.

Thanks obie, I must have missed that, sorry. I know see it is actually mentioned in this thread as well.

So it uses a lower line Cirrus processor than the 990, correct?

So they can't say much because of agreements? Someone is going to have to disect one.

I want to believe that the UL will sound good, but with onboard amps and non-adjustable crossover, it makes me wonder.

With the great customer service, you would think they would make sure to be upfront with all technical and operational data, allowing for informed decisions. Agree?

I just recently discoverd AV123 because of Gonks pre-amp comparison site (BTW very cool Gonk). I am looking at the LMC-1 because of its price, a pre/amp for that price is awesome. They also have a very nice build quality look. I was also impressed by their amp. But it costs more than the equivalent Outaw (770) and in a review I saw it only reached 175W without clipping, not the rated 200W. Its too bad Outlaw decided to drop the 950 instead of just updating its look and maybe a couple of features, I really dont care about balanced outputs for example. I know they dont want a huge product line but two pre-amps doesnt seem excessive. How long has AV123 been around? Has anyone dealt with any of their products?

Like Outlaw, AV123 is an excellent company to deal with. AV123 has been around for roughly the same time Outlaw has. Their owner used to be the owner of Audio Alchemy and before that was involved in Infinity. Like most of the Outlaws, MLS (the president of AV123) has been involved in this industry his entire life. I even think his family dates back to Marantz.

I like both models but it seems to me the LCM-1 lacks features it should have and has features that are uneccessary (2 zone capability & amp built in) on the other hand the 990 is unreasonably large & has the almost useless DVI switching...it is very hard to decide between these 2 because they both are not a 100% of what a consumer in this price range is looking for in a pre/pro
however, I am leaning towards the 990 because of the BM i have smaller sattelites in the rear channel & they might be better off with a higher crossover point

I would be interested in what amps you fellas are using with your new 990s.

I have been looking on this website for information on a matching 5 or 7 channel amp, but have not found what I am looking for. Any links for the matching amp?

Outlaw's amp line-up includes the 7100 (7x100W), 755 (5x200W), 770 (7x200W), and 200 (200W monoblock). Since the 990's faceplate is a new design style for Outlaw, none share the same faceplate currently. I'm using a pair of Model 200's and a Model 750 (predecessor to the 755).

Thanks gonk. I read somewhere on this board that Outlaw may be introducing some new amps this year. Does anyone have a link to more information? Perhaps a specific newsletter?

Well, we know that the 790 is still in the works (7x300W, balanced and unbalanced inputs, two power supplies with separate power cords). Based on the level of interest in updating the faceplates of the existing amp line-up, we may also see some changes at some point, but there has been no official word about such plans.

Ender you hit it right on the nail. Thats whats happening to me. And you are right, what the heck do you need a two channel amp on a pre-amp for?? If anything, you are ruining one of the virtues of a pre-amp, no high powered stuff going on to cause distortion.

Actually if I wasnt so picky with my equipment I would buy a used 950 and be done with it. So Gonk how well did you take care of your 950? ; )

My 950 had a pretty comfortable life, but a few days after the 990 arrived, the 950 took a road trip to Texas and found a new home in woof*'s equipment rack. Outlaw has asked that this forum not be used to sell equipment, but a number of new 990 owners have been turning to Audiogon and eBay to sell their old receivers and processors - there seems to be a healthy supply of 950's available in those channels.

Hehehe Thanks... I was just kidding about buying yours. But I will keep audiogon in mind. The sad thing is buying a used 950 (around $500) and a new 770 is more than what the combo used to cost new since you dont get the rebate!

And soon to be another one, cuz I just cut the back out of my cabinet to fit the 990. No turning back now!

Ya gotta love competition. MLS just posted this over at AV123.
I was thinking of spending $3K on a Pre/Pro now I can get a 990 and the U/L stack and still have pocket change.

YOU DOG ! Seriously though it looks like a pretty sweet offer . the 990 and the EMO would probably marry up nicely .

Pretty impressive deal for Rocket owners or prospective Rocket owners. You have to give the AV123 crew a lot of credit for taking care of their existing customer base, and folks looking to build a system from scratch may be able to get the separates version of a HTiB - a comparatively inexpensive combination of processor, amp, and speakers from one source. It's worth recognizing, though, that if you already own speakers from another company then this deal doesn't apply - you'll still pay $1200 for the pair, $700 for the processor by itself, or $600 for the amp by itself. (And if you need digital video switching, add $100 for the Gefen switch.)

Bottom line: obie_fl is exactly right - gotta love competition.

gonk: care to compare the 755 and the 770? I will only be using a 5 channel system for the near term. Long term, it depends. I may go to a 7 channel system. It would be nice to have everything self contained.

Can you point to a link for the 790?

Comparing the 755 and 770 is pretty easy - they are identical except for the number of amp channels provided. The individual amplifier channels used in both are the same, as is the chassis. There are some slight differences in the power supply, I believe, due to the extra channels in the 770. Sonically, everything I've seen indicates that they are indistinguishable from each other. If you think you'll go 7.1 and prefer to keep your amps in one box, the 770 is just what you need. If you think it may be a while (if ever), you can always elect to get the 755 and add a pair of M200's later.

There's some scattered info on the 790. It was originally reported on in this thread , with some good pictures of it provided here by psklenar. More recently, this thread had a couple of reports.

Thanks gonk!! Those were some excellent links!!

Any ideas as to the price of the new 790? If it was mentioned in the links, I missed it. I saw some other pricing, but not that one.

I am not in any big hurry so, maybe the best thing for me to do is wait a little bit longer and see what happens. I do like the looks and reviews of the 990. That is what brought me over here. The price is also great.

I think that the 990/ 790 combo may be a better deal than the new Denon 4806 that was just introduced. Comments? $3600 would be in my price range. I did take a long look at the Denon 5805, but at $6000 I think that one is a little pricey for what you get.

There has not been a price announced that I'm aware of. I suspect, however, that your figure of $3600 is a reasonable estimate of the 990/790 package price (assuming that pricing on the 790 is similar on a $/watt basis to the existing Outlaw amps).

Guess that I will continue to watch and see what happens.

Thanks for all of the help!!