990

CLICK ON ME

APRIL FOOLS!!!RIGHT!!!

GIVE THE PRIZE TO ME!!
PLEASE!!

didn't mean to shout.

I noticied that the BStock price of the 950 dropped to $625, even though none are in stock, and now a new thread. Could it be? I so need a pre/pro now that I have the 7100.

Can I have one?

So, when are we going to find out what's in the box?

Oh, this is going to be very interesting!

Nice Photoshop work Scott!

hmmmm ... it is April First ... but still ... I wonder ...


Get in line.


I suspect we know the answer ... air!

Until I see an actual entry on the order form, it's just candy in the store that's too high to reach.

Oooooohhh... if it's an empty box my one year old will be in heaven! Let me know when I can order one!

This will be fun. I wonder if it'll fit in my rack.

Yeah, my cats would really enjoy a big empty cardboard box.

would your cat's fit in an empty cardboard box, regardless of how big it is? I mean with a name like Rubious Haggrid ... that's got to be a monster of a cat!

It's funny, but it's also true... And Hagrid is the small cat in the house! Cyrus is the real big boy.

READY AND WAITING

Outlaw should allow the selling of used Outlaw equipment in the forums, I'm sure when the 990 is released, there's gonna be alot of 950 for sale. IMOP I would rather buy used Outlaw equipment here, rather then other places.

I believe that Outlaw established the ban on selling equipment (Outlaw or otherwise) in the forum due to liability concerns. You and I might never think of suing Outlaw because a forum member ripped us off in a transaction that took place through the Saloon, but some people would take such an action and there was no way for them to regulate or monitor those sales. It seems a little silly, but the reality of today's business world makes it a painfully understandable concern.

If the 990 is what we might reasonably assume it to be, I'd suggest anyone interested in a used 950 watch Audiogon . That's where I've sold used equipment in the past, and it's worked well for me.

Just when I thought I had pacified the "upgraditis" bug.............

And if it takes up much of that box, I bet it'll be a serious piece.

note that there's nothing in that picture for size reference. It could be 2" x 3" x 3" for all we know.

Wow, very cool. Count me as interested.

Didn't think of that. Maybe Outlaw is going to start selling wrist watches...

Maybe it's the box for the "Chatchki" that they're going to be handing out at Home Entertainment Show coming up soon?

Hmmmmm...

I'll take one of those. The amount of entertainment that the cats will get out of that would be worth it. Besides, it will give them something else to play with so they stop opening and sleeping in the wardrobe!

Besides, it will give them something else to play with so they stop opening and sleeping in the wardrobe!

GREAT - IF THAT'S ALL THEY DO IN THERE

Know what?

I don’t think I need to upgrade to the new box. I took one of my original Outlaw boxes and connected it to my system to see if it needed any improvement. I started conservatively. At first I checked for hiss or other bothersome signal problems with the boxed closed. I then slowly progressed until I had the box wide open – still no hiss! No distortion! Even if the new box has a few more cubic inches than my original box, I really don’t think the new box will do any better in my system. Guess I’m going to just have to suppress my “number envy,” seeing as the new box says “990” and my original box doesn’t, at least until a good deal of material becomes available needing a format my original box won’t hold. Perhaps then I can justify an upgrade.

If any of you do install the new box in your system, be sure to give the rest of us your impressions.

I know Scott's post was meant to be a joke, but I really hope there is something in the pipeline to fill that box soon - I just finished installing the last of our 7.2 Triad in-ceiling speakers and a pre/pro to control it all is what I really need.

Outlaws, you haven't given us an update in almost 2 months, how about giving us some dirt?! Will we be seeing you at the NYC HES next month?

-SM

CLICK ON ME TOO

Umm... All of a sudden I'm not so sure this is a joke any more. That looks like a new pre/pro with front panel mic, optical, and video inputs behind those little covers. Should we be getting excited?

Curiouser and Curiouser ... Didn't see anything like this previewed at last years HE show!

Still nothing to indicate the scale. Could still be under 2" x 3" x 3" and, as Wayne suggested, could be their "Chatchki" for this year ... the first year I met the Outlaws in NYC, they were giving out small AM/FM radios. Although this one is much nicer looking that that first give-away ...

Tears of Joy!!!!

It could be a piece of brilliantly sculpted clay......

IT'S JUST A FACEPLATE!!!!!

Looks pretty tall. I hope I can fit it in my rack, as I only have 7 3/4 inches.

Mark

JT,

It's got feet under it, that's more than just a face plate. And the display is more than the piece of colored plastic I'd expect for a mocked up face plate; you can see the display elements in it.

hmmmm ... not sure I really want to get my hopes up, but since Scott's carried this beyond the traditional April Fools day with a second photo being posted today, maybe this isn't a gag ... I wouldn't expect a custom box to be created until they had something finished to fit in it ...

Can't wait to see a pic of the back!

ok,MAYBE,i was wrong....

i should still get a prize,oh hell,just being here with you guys is prize enough

funny though,just did some quick checking,every outlaw component says what it is under the model number.

it's so big,it's almost gotta be a receiver,though.

Holy.... This is looking better and better every day.

Check out the early pics of the 1070 and 790, painttoad - both are using the same new design style as the 990, and both list nothing under the model number. It's definitely big, but based on the 9xx numbering it would make more sense for it to be a surround sound processor - a replacement or big brother to the 950. The height is definitely significant, though. Maybe the balanced connections that they mentioned using on the next SSP (to go with the 790's balanced inputs).

Impressive! IIRC the outlaws DID say that the new pre-pro was their OWN design with no sharing required as there was with the 950. This keeps getting better and better. I am positively awash with anticipation to see what the feature set is.

Scott,
If I may ask of you, can we get a back shot of this new electronic beauty?

( Actually, I don't expect that to happen, but nothing ventured... )

makes sense,haven't seen old pics.

i tried to zoom in on the surround formats on the bottom right but still couldn't make it out.

scott's such a tease!

i don't like it,no green power button :p

You can check out the Model 1070 & the new Outlaw style in my NYC HE 2004 pics web page.


hehehe, good eye!

thanx 4 the pics.
must be pre-production picture scott gave us.they have to give us a green button,right?in my 20+years of playing with car and home audio, outlaw is the only company i can recall with the green power button.kinda like their trademark,i was gonna make a comparison to cindy crawford's mole,but my 1050 is much prettier!

painttoad,

I wouldn't be so certain that's a pre-prod unit. Why would they have a special box already created for a pre-prod piece?

Of course, I could be wrong. Certainly wouldn't be the first time.

OK, so this doesn't look like the joke many of us thought it was. I have to say that I love it; it looks like the 1070, which is exactly what I was hoping for. Great job, Outlaws!

Now on to more important matters: what is its feature set, when can we order it, and when will the matching 7100 be available (with balanced inputs like the 790)? I'd love to be able to use the 300 watts of the 790 but that is double the rated power of my speakers...probably more than a little overkill.

Keep the news coming!!

-SM

A rear panel picture will definitely be cool.

By the way, grok, cool screen name. Heinlein fan?

I hope Outlaw post the specs for this 990 so I can compare it to the Harman Kardon 635 . Upgradeditis temps me!
Anyone has something to tell me about the 635?

Here's hoping the 990 has replaced the 1070's DVI switching with HDMI inputs.

I have seen front an back photos of the RR an 1070 for to long to believe these will be real any time these year.

Pat, Really? Superimpose the photo of the 990 over the pics you took of the 1070 (notice the button layout, even where the covered front-panel jacks are).

So Scott, will we see this next month at the NYC show? And do original 950 owners like us get first dibs. I still have all the original emails from the first 950 launch. Could we have a pic of the back?

See anything like this?

Where's the forum towel dispenser? I seem to be experiencing a drooling problem

Scott, No, because that was a receiver and this is a ....hey, I just realized that a pic of the back panel finally puts an end to the speculation. It's a pre-pro!

Makes me wonder how far along this little project is.

Now we're talking...

Now we need a picture of the software

Woohoo!

Scott,

That's just downright perdy!

Very nice... IT looks like it has HDMI switching?

Anyone know what the approximate price point is going to be? I need to start saving up...

Az

Actually, I thought it was real from the second I saw the new forum section.

Thats DVI switching. HDMI looks like USB ports. Here's to hoping at some point it can be upgraded to HDMI.

I'd really like to see a pic of the back where I could read that tiny little text... :rolleyes:

Maybe it can be ordered by July 2006!! After rethinking my DVI-HDMI position. I believe that DVI is the way to go on the 990. I see no reason to take Multi-Channel audio to my display(TV), as all of my audio is processed by my Pre/Pro(950).

I think the reason people want it for audio is because it reduces the amount of cables to achieve mc music from 6 to 1, not to mention you would no longer need a digital coax or optical for the dvd player and hdmi handles the video also, so no more component video. HDMI takes the back of a dvd player with 10 cables coming out and makes it 1. Pretty slick, but I'm not unhappy with DVI, I just think HDMI is much more versatile.

From a J6P perspective I would imagine having one cable on all of your equipment would make it easier to get into this hobby.

Jed M,

Are you assuming, that a HDMI Switcher would also drop the audio in a pre-pro?

I would assume that HDMI inputs would allow for audio input at the processor. I was not under the impression that it would provide digital audio for DVD-A and SACD, however - the standard agreed to by the DVD Forum for DVD-A was IEEE-1394 (and it's still far too rarely supported by hardware due to encryption issues that were handled separately from the Forum's acceptance of 1394). Unless there's been a change there, HDMI still wouldn't get rid of those six analog cables for universal players - and if there has been a change, you have to find a universal player that supports it.

Here's my take on DVI and HDMI, for what it's worth. DVI arrived on the scene first and has a very large installed base among existing HDTV's. It is also more common on sources like HD cable boxes, not to mention the upconverting DVD players that first appeared using DVI only. Because of these issues, getting DVI support will benefit the largest number of people. HDMI was a format without available hardware little more than a year ago, and it's only been in the last nine months or so that we've seen HDMI really showing up in hardware. We are moving toward an environment where we will need HDMI switching, but DVI switching is more likely to be useful today. The ideal case is a digital video switching section that accepts multiple DVI and multiple HDMI inputs (including audio on the HDMI) and provides monitor outputs of all of those digital inputs via either DVI or HDMI. The only way to get that today is Denon's latest super-flagship receiver, complete with $6000 price tag. For products that have been in the development pipeline for a couple years, DVI switching is a logical choice that will offer a lot of people exactly what they need.

Hmm. My Mackie 824 powered monitors have balanced inputs but my custom speaker lines are male rca to male 1/4" to accomodate the outs on the 950. If I upgrade to the 990 I'll have to upgrade the lines (and crawl through the attic again to run 'em. Yuch!) Why, o why does technology have to march onward? (Is anyone else waiting for Microsoft to release their new OS before replacing their pc?)

Jay

RS-232 port means software upgradable!

Couple things I can't make out - the white square below the component block? The block to the (viewer's) right of it?

Triggers in the upper right? On/off below the AC jack? Apparently blank spaces to the left of the upper and lower composite inputs?

Thanks for the backshot Scott. This is creating quite a buzz. But since we experienced so much of a wait time with the 950, is this information being released to tease. As the 1070 that has yet to be released, but that was announced last year. Or is Outlaw ready to pull out it's six shooter within the next few months. You know the question is coming at the NYCHT show. So why not quiet the masses instead of this eternal teasing.

I'm hoping that white square is a firewire port, that would partially smooth over the lack of HDMI input. Maybe it is just me but the big advantage of HDMI is not switching or cable management but the all digital high bandwith path into the Pre/Pro. Why buy a fancy processor if you have to bypass the digital section and just pass through the analog hi-res signals? This will become even more important once the HD versions of DD and DTS get here. I'm thinking the Outlaws have to get this 990 out fast or it will be obsolete in six months.

HDMI has been approved for DVD-Audio for some time I believe the Pioneers and Denons and maybe others are already doing it.

When I made my mention of HDMI capabilities I was referring mostly to the future possibilities. We already know the limitations of DVI. In no way am I complaining about the new Outlaw, as I think DVI switching is great, it's just my opinion that there are vast more possibilities with HDMI.

I definitely agree that HDMI has the potential to become a very convenient interface for digital sources. The ability to carry HD video signals as well as still having the pipe to handle a lot of digital audio data is very compelling. It'll be good to see that potential fully tapped. While we wait, though, it's at least good to see manufacturers beginning to think about providing DVI switching for the many people with DVI-equipped hardware already in their equipment racks.

It would help to have a higher definition picture, but it seems that the white square may be covering a circle? I think it's interesting how many different colors are used for the multi-channel ins and outs. Also, what is the plug next to the coaxial out?

The white square may have been photoshopped on to keep us from guessing something - that, or it's an odd port cover of some sort. They do also look to be using the THX color standard for multi-channel input and output (and they look to have gone to a 7.1 analog input rather than the 5.1 that the 950 has). The odd thing next to the coaxial out is either some sort of BNC connection (which would make sense for a component input if there were three of them) or a ground connection point - like maybe there's a phono input tucked in there. That would make sense, since they were developing one anyway for the RR2150. - I think everybody's going to be limited to some serious guesswork until we get a more hi-res picture or some direct information.

My guess is it's a USB port, but I could be way off.

Next to coax out is probably optical out.

I doubt seriously that it has a phono stage, more's the pity.

There's already an optical out directly above the coaxial out. gonk's guess sounds logical. I don't know what the whole section is for. The spacing just seems...odd. There are 2 pairs of red and white connections in with that mystery plug. One pair above and one below it.

Take a look at the small hole in the space next to the white square. Could that one be a USB port? It might be more the right size. There is something small with a label there.

One word: Woah...

My jaw has dropped and in a big way. My mouth has definately been shut. I can't wait to see and hear this at the NYC show. In fact Scott just bring mine to the show, so you can save me some coin on shipping.

Hmmm... I wonder if I'll have enough miles for a flight to NY for the show?

To avoid any incorrect speculation, the white block in the middle of the Model 990 rear panel image is the plastic dust cap that is there to protect the USB jack. Also on the subject of covered jacks, there are two groupings of jacks on the right side of the front panel, covered by caps in the photo. the one on the left has an optical input and the jack for the set up microphone included with the unit. The jack pod on the right has the analog left/right audio, composite video and S-Video jacks for the "Video 5" input.

You had my money when you said it was going to be available next month. Set-up mike, tell me you will have mine at the show.

Scott - What is the jack to the right of the USB?

Yeah, I think that somewhere in the Pacific there's a box that needs to find its way to Memphis ASAP. Knowing me, I'll still pull the SPL meter out while calibrating, but I'd also like to see just what the setup mic can do (and the front input jack for the mic is a nice touch).

Anybody else notice the separate remote for the second zone? Nice touch.

No doubt about it, I'm in. One thing that really pleases me is the addition of a phono input. And a headphone jack to boot!! Very cool. That money I was going to use to buy a second amp just got reallocated...

Later,
Simp

The $1,099.00 price is amazing. Phono, PLIIx and Auto setup, just what I wanted. I can't wait to read the posts of Beta testers.

In looking at the display, even though it is not turned on, it looked pretty familiar to me. Since I just happened to have the owners manual for the Sherwood/Newcastle P-965 on my hard drive I compared their illustration of the 965's display with what you can see in Scott's picture. Sure enough, they appear very similar if not the same. On to the S/N site where they have a very nice picture
of the rear of the P-965. Yep, the same layout although the 990 has more stuff like XLR, DVI etc. but the layout is identical expect for the additional ins and outs. I think it is a pretty safe bet these two units are built off of the same chassis. But, the 990 would appear to have more features at about the same street cost as the P-965.

so, when and how much?

OK. I just purchased a 950/770 combo in early October. Now I guess I'm going to have to purchase a 990/7100 combo, pair the 990/770 together in my main listening area and the 950/7100 in my secondary area. So go ahead and and put my name on the waiting list.

Jeff

I know that it will be sheer speculation, but do you think that they've fixed the 1-2 second audio sync delay that is in the 950? I hope so, as that is really the only thing that annoys me with the 950. And the price of $1099 is much better than I'd dared to hope. Thanks again Outlaw. And I hope that you built several boat loads of these, as I'm sure they'll sell quickly.

Jeff

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that they probably have fixed the delay - it's one of the most common complaints about the 950, and they look to have tried to resolve any such existing concerns.

Well, since the first shipment is on a freighter from the factory now, "when" is real darn soon - four to six weeks. "How much" is $1100.

Wow, I don't check the forum for a few days and there's a whole new processor available

With DTS-HD perhaps coming out when high def DVDs are released via Blu-ray, HD-DVD or (egads!) both, is this something the 990 could handle now? Can it be added via a software/firmware upgrade for decoding at the processor level? I don't know enough about the upcoming DTS suite to know if such upgrades are possible without adding new hardware horsepower.

I'm guessing the players will have decoding for DTS-HD available like they do now for existing formats, so it could be a moot point when using the bypass mode (right?)

Heck, are the specs even out yet for DTS-HD for manufacturers such as Outlaw to prepare for them?

Jus' trying to future proof myself (okay okay...really just trying to avoid being seduced by the new gear lust, which doesn't seem to be working too well!)

Cheers!
Marty

With the HD disc format war as screwed up as it is, even if the audio specs were "available" I'd be wary of designing around them. If the hardware is able to handle it, the RS-232 and USB ports would allow for an easy software update, but whether or not the horsepower exists is probably impossible to say at this time.

Wow, $1100 is pretty amazing.

Definitely intriguing. What chip(s) are inside? This unit is certainly on my very short pre/pro shopping list.

Say, SCOTT!

Any chance of posting a pdf of the user manual?


Please?

It will be interesting to see how it compares to the Sherwood P-965. I am looking forward to seeing all the reviews when it comes out.

In regards to the separate L & R subwoofer interface on the 990. Are these configurable? For example can I dedicate one of the XLR interfaces strickly for LFE and then dedicate the other XLR interface for the Redirected Bass of the L & R channles -

Anyone want to buy a used 950?

Too bad Outlaw didn't wait for at least the final audio specs. for both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray. They are practically IDENTICAL, except for additional uncompressed stereo and discrete multi-channel LPCM support for Blu-Ray due to its higher capacity and higher bitrates.

As far as I know all new packeted codecs and LPCM specs. are pegged at 6 discrete channels @ 24/192 resolution and 8 discrete channels @ 24/96 resolution due to restrictions in today's HDMI specs.

Here they are (as best as I can remember):

Legacy Dolby Digital & DD EX

Dolby ProLogic, Dolby ProLogic II, and Dolby ProLogic IIx (although, these Dolby products are all DSP modes added after the fact and not necessarily apart of the original sound mixing or raw PCM data stream and are optional)

Dolby Digital Plus (more efficient lossy codec for broadcast and internet sources, mainly)

Dolby Digital Lossless (formally known as Meridian Lossless Packing or MLP)

Legacy DTS

DTS-HD (which encorporates DTS Neo:6, DTS-ES, DTS 96/24, and DTS Lossless; they can also tag legacy DTS lossy to the DTS Lossless stream as one giant bitstream for backwards compatibility if the software provider doesn't do two separate lossy and lossless tracks)

PCM

It remains to be seen if DSD support will be added to the Blu-Ray spec. because of Sony & Philip's involvement.

All signs (and by signs I mean Richard Doherty of Panasonic: a big figure in the Blu-Ray camp and others, like Amir from Microsoft, in the know; they hang out on AVS Forum quite a bit) point towards... drum roll please... HDCP encrypted HDMI along with some form of hardy key encryption set forth by the AACS as being the digital interface standard, not DVI/HDCP (although it may be okayed for video only so that devices with DVI/HDCP won't be totally obsoleted) or Firewire. HDMI will carry both audio and video, so all those new fancy, schmancy audio formats will probably have to travel on HDMI according to the dictates of the MPAA.

Does the Outlaw 990 have daughter card support for adding HDMI inputs and outputs to its main board? And does it have the extra space and horsepower to add these new formats and evil, yet necessary encryption standards?

I have a feeling I'm going to have to sit this one out, as much as I am intrigued by the 990, until full Blu-Ray and HD-DVD A/V support is included in receivers and pre-amp/processors.

The 990 will be quickly made obsolete I fear, and within a year or less because of the lack of high resolution disc support. Although, I'm sure it won't be the only unit.

Scott

I would like to see the manual. Did you put it in PDF yet? If not, put some major spec info is OK too.

How many volts this one can put out? I bet it is higher than 950.

Thanks man.

I think this technology is going to take a bit longer to work itself out, but I do hope HDMI capabilities are realized sooner than later. All this dated stuff reminds me of this thread in 2001 that claimed the 950 would be obsolete within a year because it didn't have firewire to handle MC music. http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htforum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=35283&highlight=outlaw+out+dated

I'm seeing a lot of the original Outlaw crowd in this thread. Just add Soundhound, SLL, Will, Merc, Kevin C. Brown, RAF and Ricky T and it will be just like old times.

Those were the days!

Personally I'll be waiting for i-link or some other digital support for DVD-A and SACD before upgrading my 950. I-link isn't new state-of-the-art anymore. It's been in receivers for over two years.

Thanks!

Will

In case you haven't noticed, DVD-A and SACD have failed in the marketplace, and it is only a matter of time before the record companies pull the plug on the formats for good.

Blame it on two competing formats and really stupid marketing that stressed sound quality "improvements" that were not noticable to the average consumer, over the obvious improvement afforded by the multi-channel aspect.

CD is going to be the only game in town for the best quality audio I'm afraid.

I'm afraid I will not be purchasing a 990. My only need is a device that decodes Dolby Digital and basic ProLogic, and the 950 fills that need quite nicely.

I use a vacuum tube preamp for stereo listening, and have a relay switched input to my crossovers/power amps for multi-channel monitoring. I use direct connections for my video projector.

The 990 is the answer to a question I never asked.

Hi Guys!
This 990 does look VERY interesting. I wonder if the balanced outs are full differential balanced or just converted RCAs? Still, it looks very nice on paper.
Dolby Headphone is one very tempting tidbit to me.

Count me in! Adding the vidio delay was a huge fix, now I can stay in suspened reality!
Thing is, I just ordered the DEQX for my Maggies, and was wondering how I could do wthout a mic calibration for the center and rear...tell me it's room correction (my guess is it's for the level only, which is helpful, but phase woud be great)

I can think of some ONkyo SP1000 DVD owners who will love the audio sync feature too as long as you can delay the audio, and not just the video?

As for DVI-D input, and not HDMI, the folks that will impact(negatively) most will be those who have a DVD player with HDMI, and not DVI-D, and who have an HDMI input on their HDTV. Those folks may wish to go directly to their HDTV with that HDMI video rather than lose some BTB ability while clipping bits from 10 to 8 due to having their video signal formatted as RGBHV.

Welcome back, merc! I'm thinking that the audio sync delay is included to delay the audio only as a means of compensating for sources with video processing that causes a delay in the video signal.

Already on the boat coming over? Wow! This one certainly has been played close to the vest. I didn't think Peter could keep anything this secret! :p (any one wanna bet I'll be hearing from him about this wise crack?)

Hiya Merc! Hiya Will!

Dan, But if the Outlaws waited for the specs to be hammered out and the chips made affordable, then everyone would be complaining that Outlaw was too far behind the times. They've got something here (or so it appears) that will work for a majority of folks today. Considering how quiet they kept the development of the 990, I wouldn't be at all surprised if they've got something along the lines of what you're looking for in the development pipeline. But I would be surprised if they tell us about it. I have a hunch this may be their new methodology - develop & test in secret and then announce when on the boat.

anbyhow .... hmmm ... let's see ... sell my 1050, move the 950 upstairs into the listening system, and plug the 990 into the HT? Or since I was thinking about the 2150 for the upstairs listening system, maybe keep the 1050 in the listening system, sell the 950, and put the 990 into the HT? Don't think the 990 will fit in my listening system rack ... if it's the standard component width, the photo's make it appear to be significantly taller than the 1050 (ratio of width to height) and that barely fits in my upstairs rack.

Looking forward to seeing this in a month!

Anyone else going to the NYC show? I'll take a train down on friday and stay over night, so I'll be around the show part of both days.

I will definately be there on Saturday. Any chance of getting free tickets this year? I have to save all the money I can to save up for the 990

WOW!!

I have already started to try to figure out how to pay for this beast. The 1099.00 price seems like a steal! In the newsletter Outlaw said "guaranteed for the next 90 days, is $1,099." Does that 90 days start from NOW or does it start from the ship date when the boxes actually get to the Outlaws?

Any ideas?

I am looking foward to this...

Hi Pat, gonk, Jeff, etc... okay, you too Will.

From what I know, the 990 will be a wonderful choice for many folks, especially at the $1100 price point. Probably, its' primary competition will be the new Sherwood-Newcastle pre/pro?

Does the 990 have an onboard phono preamp? Did I read that somewhere on the previous two pages of posts?

Does it have an onboard tuner too?

Yes to the phono preamp, yes to the onboard tuner, and there's even a headphone jack (with Dolby Headphone) and RS-232/USB software upgradeability.

Looks like I'll need to update the pre/pro chart today...

I have to believe that you would be using an amp with the 990 that makes use of the new balanced outputs. And I'd have to believe that it would be an Outlaw with balanced inputs. So how's the 790 coming? I suppose that since it was already shown you could use one of the prototypes again. Just wishing that one of the surprises includes news on the 790.

Sorry for the somewhat off-topic nature of this post.

Ok...what happened to the green button..this can't be an Outlaw product can it???

Cool.

1. I'm keepin' my 950 forever 'cause it's a great piece and the analog ins with BM make it future proof.

2. I'm gettin' the 990.

3. Speaking of analog ins...what's the skinny on BM for them in the 990...anyone know?

4. Now Outlaw needs to make a Blu-Ray/SACD/DVD-A player...

I dont know why they were so secretive about this.

$1099 is a very reasonable price, though it would have been nice to let people know to start saving (if need be).

If a company (like Outlaw Audio) waited for a new technology to take hold before making a product, then they would never make anything. Technology is ever evolving beyond anyone's imagination, so everything will become "old" sooner than later.

I don't know if I'm excited about this or not... I don't see myself buying one, but if I had a 950 I would probably do so. They should offer a trade-up feature so they can get and sell some bstock 950s, that would be nearly unprecedented in the industry! It would also increase brand loyalty.

If nothing else, it is about time they came out with a new processor. Hopefully the next generation processor comes out more quickly than this one has...

I just received a new UPDATED pic of the 990, so I thought that I'd post it here first.

lol.

I havn't posted here since way back but I always get my Outlaw newsletter. Once an outlaw always an outlaw I guess. Saw the 990 letter and had to check it out. Very Impressive for what you get. I was one of the original guys long ago that bought one of the first 950s.

From the specs and pictures it seems alot of the reasons I sent it back and bought the Rotel RSP-1066 seem to be taken care of with this one. For one the front panel DOESN'T look cheap.. One of my biggest complaints (yeah I know its cosmetic, I had other issues as well..) with the 950. The buttons and dial seem alot nicer (any of the beta guys want to chime in, feel free). Once I get some solid reviews from people on here I will probably buy one and do the 30 day test again...

Jeff

I know exactly why they were so secretive. They were roasted in online forums for the delays experienced during the 950's development, and they clearly didn't want to do that again. "Delivery creep" (the design and manufacturing version of "feature creep") is very common - both of AV123's Emotiva SSP's have suffered from it, the Model 1070 is struggling with it currently, and plenty of other products (such as my Yamaha DVD player, which was originally announced for March 2004 and didn't show up until September) go through the same thing. They elected to try something totally different with the 990, and I think it's sort of cool.

Figures, they'd announce this just as I'm in the midst of building out my new dedicated HT room in my new house! I'm already eyeing an upgraded projector , building out a new HTPC, and buying a 770..

Clearly they kept this one under wraps because of the 950 release delay debacle. I'd say it was a responsible thing to do.

(speaking of 950 product release veterans coming out of the woodwork...)

Seems like Yamaha didn't learn their lesson... as the 2500 still isn't out after resetting the release date twice now.

DADDY LIKE!!

Now, lets see a picture of that LCD touchscreen remote that is included!!!

Wow, Prefect, it's been a while! Good to see you back on the forum. Best of luck on the dedicated HT room.

Even my UPS guy is waiting and panting! When can I get him to leave the porch? I am afraid if I say 30-45 days before the Outlaw box will arrive, he just might do something drastic!

Let's see here: The bedroom Denon moves to the office, the Outlaw 950 moves to the bedroom, and the Sony in the office is NOW LISTED ON EBAY!

Cheers!
PhatLac - :p

Oooooh.... repeat after me, "HTM MX-700"...

It's been a while since I posted anything here -- but this is certainly worth talking about. The 990 is now way up there on my list of pre-pro's...and my birthday is within the 90 days!!!

I, for one, prefer to know what is coming, rather than be surprised, even pleasantly... :p

If people would have known to expect this, then surely they would have waited instead of just purchasing something else. Now, all of the people who just bought something are surely not going to buy the 990 also... No worries, though.

Ok better make that 2 units diverted to Memphis. My 1050 is about to relocated. I guess this will delay my plans for building a Media Center PC this spring.

curegeorg,
Surely, you must have not been around during the Outlaw 950 pre-launch era...
It was decided by the online public, there and then, that it was better to wait to announce a product till the launch date was at least 85% sure...
I find it interesting that Outlaw found beta-testers for the 990 based on the heat that us 950 testers got during the delay, after delay, after delay of the 950. Egad.... I gotta go and take a pepcid now just thinking about it.

I need to start saving pennies. I really want to move to separates now... maybe I can find a deal on a used Outlaw amp to go with my 1050 and get me on the road to an actual real pre/pro! Let's see... oh, a nickel under the CD-R pile! That's five times better than a penny!

Man I remember the 950 pre launch days... Outlaw got hammered. All the beta testers took it hard. I think what they did for the 990 was the right way to go about it...

Gimme two pepcid...

LOL Jeff!

Probably, the worse thing for me about that time was that the stress and my own bad responses to the heat, caused me to lose my friendship with RAF.

That is the one thing I will always regret about those times.

Hopefully, others can learn from my experience and not suffer the same loss as I.

So now the question is how to buy one? I can't find a way to go on a list or a way to buy it on the web site. Anyone know how to buy one of these 990's?
Dave

I think my HTPC setup is going to benifit from the 990's DVI ports. My XFX 6600GT vid card has DVI outs. It will be nice to let the processor do all the switching since most all of my DVD, TV, and MP3 watching/listening is through the HTPC now.

Jeff

The DVI switching in the pre/pro is a good thing for host of us out in the trenches. The way I got around the whole switching chaos was via a harmoney remote. Thank goodness for the programming guys over at Harmony!


PhatLac.

That's it, NOW I have to get one!

I also would like to get on the list to get a 990, and I see that there's a Newsletter that will announce when the list is up and running. But I can't find any way to sign up for the newsletter. Any hints?

Mark

I think it's interesting that I was not picked to be a beta tester for the 990. Maybe they were afraid I'd dig up some hiss lurking inside.....

Hmmm ... I'm thinkin' that besides an introductory price, perhaps there should be a generous "trade-up" offer for current "Outlaw Family 950 owners!" Outlaws could yet get that into the newsletter before it comes out, right Scott? One can hope.

I spoke with someone at their "sales" phone number and asked if I could be placed on the reservation list. He told me no.

He said another notification will be sent annoucing the "reservation list" for the 990. He said the "reservation list" would be available shortly after the notification was sent. I'm assuming the notification will be another email like the one that was sent Sunday 4-3-05.

What timing. I've been lurking around this site for about a year and half waiting for my financial status to improve so that I could buy a 950/755. I was within a week or two of pulling the trigger. Now it looks like it will be a 990/755. I can hardly wait.

Try this page and hit the link near the bottom that says "Click Here for Online Contact Form" - the form includes a checklist to put you on the mailing list.

Hello All,

I am new to this board, and I would like to take this opportunity to introduce myself. My name is John and I live in the great state of Maine (Yankee). One of my passions is music and surround sound. I have a question for the powers that be concerning the new 990 pre pro. Is there a list of the internal parts used, and specifications available?

Thank You,
John

not yet.

No, I wasnt even born when the 950 came out...

Any hint as to what the remote will look like?

Mark

All this time I have been waiting for the 1070 to replace my 1050, Now it looks like I will be getting a 990 seeing that I already have 5 of the 7 M200 amp channels that I need. Now if I can just find the cash to get one, which is pretty tough seeing that I am paying for school and not working right now! I think I am the only one hoping that it takes a while before it is released so that I will be back at work before the 90-day intro price period is up.

Ahhh the dreaded 950 HISS...Now I remember Mine didn't have it...

Jeff

God... it probably has been that long... hasn't it?

"Yes, I know you are my only daughter. Yes, I know you would like to finish college. Yes, I know all you need is another grand for tuition. But daddy needs a 990! Uh, you wouldn't understand, it's just another one of daddy's black boxes with twinkly lights are far as you're concerned, but it's what keeps daddy in the basement and out of trouble....sometimes.......you don't want daddy to get in trouble, do you? I knew you'd understand, sweetie, now go get a loan or something"

WOW! I get home from work and check out the 990 thread and even Merc came back! It's starting to feel like the Outlaw forum in here. All we need is RAF and Lena.

It's good to see you all. I hope life has been good to all of you. I had planned on keeping my 950 for a very long time, but component on-screen menus and the balanced outputs (to my Behringer EQs) may tip the scales towards the 990. A real bonus would be a tuner of the mid 80's NAD Schotz class (after all, we ARE talking about a Peter Tribeman company!) and a capable MM/MC phono section.

Upgraditis has been quelled by the strong performance of my 950, but...

I just realized that tomorrow will be 3 years since I registered here. I'm member #1317. I feel like I have been here a long time, then I look at Gonk and Pat. Hard to believe you guys have 4 years here.

The inside information I had about the delay with the 2500 related to the incomplete spec for the HDMI port and Yamaha not wanting to implement an incomplete feature. Hmm, sounds like Outlaw might be right about no HDMI ports...

On a side note, if the new 990 is as big as the Sherwood, it's going to be quite hefty. If the reasoning for the size is the balanced outputs, I do hope they are truly balanced as questioned in an above post. Knowing Outlaw, they probably are.

Also curious if the DVI switching will handle 1080p. Some DVI switchers out there will not (Dtronics 4x1, Gefen's).

Almost no one will need it to, but there is one situation where you would. Feeding a JVC HD2K both from its outboard scaler box and from an HTPC (or other direct 1080p source) you would need this capability.

Down the road, there may be other projectors with similar needs.

Anyone one from Outlaw know nif it has been tested at this resolution?

BB

Be careful what you wish for.

Completely balanced circuits not only add to the complexity of a circuit by a factor of two, with the resulting addition of noise and distortion, but they also cancel out even order distortion components such as the 2nd and 4th harmonic, the very ones you do not want to be cancelled. This leaves only the odd order (3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th etc) distortion components laid bare, and these usually result in a sterile and hard sounding unit, even when the spec'd distortion is "vanishingly low".

All electronics generate distortion, however little, and the presence of the low order even harmonics (especially the 2nd harmonic) will cover up the presence of the higher order, harsher distortion components. Our ears are particularly sensitive to even vanishingly low levels of higher order/odd order distortion.

One of the major reasons tube amplifiers sound so natural is the fact that the distortion spectra is almost completely low order, with the 2nd harmonic being the most pronounced.

Plain old un-sexy unbalanced designs are the best sounding, and balanced circuits should only be used as a last resort to combat RFI/EMI picked up by extremely long cables (50' or more) that have to run through hostile environments.

Contrary to what marketing departments may have you believe, balanced circuits were developed for one purpose and one purpose only: to combat interference picked up by very long cables in professional installations. Their use actually involves a sonic penalty that is best avoided if at all possible.

I had not been visiting the forum for sometime now....but I get the email from the Outlaws, and its back to the forum. It looks like this has really drawn a few people back.

I hope that the 990 sounds as good as it looks...

Now I have to figure out how to pitch this to the wife.....

"I, for one, prefer to know what is coming, rather than be surprised, even pleasantly...

If people would have known to expect this, then surely they would have waited instead of just purchasing something else. Now, all of the people who just bought something are surely not going to buy the 990 also... No worries, though."


While I certainly understand Outlaw's thinking about the secrecy regarding the 990, as Curegeorg said, I'm sure there are a lot of people like me who grew impatient waiting for the PROMISE of a new pre/pro and went out and purchased something more updated than the 950. I was sure that Outlaw wouldn't release anything until the end of the year at the earliest (and probably much later than that, based on the 1070 and RR2150 problems!) and I was seduced by the deal I got on a Denon 3805! While I love the 3805 and have been enjoying it for the few weeks I've had it, I definitely would have held off on the purchase had I known the 990 was just about to be released, as I'm sure many others would have. Oh well, I guess that's the life we've all privately sworn to (or sold our souls to!) when we were first bitten by the HT bug!

Thanks SH. I have long been under the impression that balanced inputs were quieter and cleaner than RCA inputs (and outputs). You are forcing me to do some research. I still like the ieda of an on-screen display on component outputs, a high quality MM/MC phono section, a hopefully better tuner than the 950 (although the 950 tuner is better than the average receivers out there now), and the software upgradability. Naming of inputs is a plus, and perhaps each input can have its own settings (please?).

I am wondering about the quadruple crossover. Mains, center, sides, and rear surround?

Nope. Simpler unbalanced designs contain less active electronic stages for the signal to go through, and there is less chance of added noise and distortion as a result. Simpler is always better in audio, assuming a good design to start with.

SH, I agree with you regarding the balanced I/O. (my amp has balanced and unbalanced inputs. As long as it's close to the preamp, I go unbalanced) But, why would the extra step cancel out even-order distortion? Why would it cancel out anything? I would think it should *add* if anything.

The way I understand it, there are a couple of ways to design a balanced output. Either with a transformer or a differential driver circuit. Is one of those implementations prone to cancelling even harmonics (of distortion).

Cary

I would have to refer you to engineering textbooks to give you an answer about how a balanced circuit cancels even order distortion, but this type of circuit does do this, and leaves the odd harmonic distortion intact. This cancellation of the even order harmonic distortion occurs only within those stages which are balanced, and does not remove any distortion components generated within any preceeding or later stages which are unbalanced.

Technically, a true balanced circuit refers to one which uses a balancing transformer. This type of circuit is not referenced to ground. This circuit is rare today, even in professional equipment, because of the expense of high quality transformers.

What is now common is what is known as differential or electronically balanced, which achieves balancing by purely electronic means.

Both types however cancel even order harmonic distortion within the circuit.

Push pull output stages in power amplifiers also fall into this category, so that one stage will cancel even order harmonic distortion generated within that stage. Bridged power amplifiers are also a "balanced" circuit and would have the same sonic penalty.

Components such as power amps which are designed as balanced (differential) from input all the way through their outputs are the worst of all worlds, as the entire circuit path will only generate odd order distortion, and probably not sound very good as a result.

Soundhound: Thanks for the information - good to know. Seems to be a lot of "balanced is always better" misconceptions out there, or else a lot of people with monoblocks sitting 50' away from their pre-amps

As for the 990, to quote the esteemed Charles Brown: AAAAUUUUGGGGHHHH!!! Just when I thought I had figured out how to spend my tax return...

Seriously, this thing sounds (on paper, that is) SWEET! And the intro price is definitely better than I expected.

Is it official that it comes with the MX-700 for a remote? That's like $180 right there. And my MX-500 has a non-functioning "back" arrow, which is frustrating (mostly when controlling the Tivo). I think I'll have to start whining loudly about that button to the wife.

If the addition to my house existed beyond paper at this point, this would be a no-brainer. As it is, I'm glad the order form isn't up yet...I have a strict rule about not ordering things until I get the drooling under control.

I wonder if the internal circuitry is designed as "unbalanced" with add-on circuitry to accommodate balanced I/O, or if much of at least the analog sections have a "fully balanced" design? Likely what would provide the best possible fidelity, per Soundhound's comments.

I haven't seen anything official on the remote. I'd doubt it would be an MX-700 - it lists for $350 (close to a third of the 990's total price), although it sells online for around $180.

I would hope that the 990's internal design is unbalanced and that the unbalanced part of the circuit is available on RCAs, bypassing the electronic balancing part of the circuit for those who do not want to use the balanced feature.

If this is not the case, I would certainly not be purchasing one - if my ever 950 croaked, I'd look to a different brand.

It is more common for power amplifiers to be fully balanced from input to output. I would certainly stay away from these in favor of designs which are unbalanced with a bypassable balancing circuit on the input for those who absolutely have to use balanced cables.

The "balanced is better" mentality is pure marketing - big XLR plugs on the back of a component certainly do look cool, but cool looking is not always better.

SH, thanks, I'll have to keep my eye out for any info on distortion and balanced drivers/receivers. I can imagine that if you use a transformerless design for a diff. driver, which I believe is typically two identical opamps each driving the + and - signals of the pair, that there would be sonme cancellation effects. I'm just not sure what yet...

I would guarantee that the design is unbalanced throughout and only balanced at the balanced driver (at the end of the chain). I wouldn't worry about that.

The DVI switching is a nice feature, as is the video upconversion. However, I keep my video chain totally seperate from my preamp (950) and drive a projector directly from the HTPC so those aren't a deal-maker for me at least.

However, I really like the idea of the stereo sub outputs as well as other audio features (maybe better, or at least different, bass management, room eq?). I'm more interested in how it sounds though. If the design (and implementation) sound great, I'm definitely in on this one.

Cary

Thank god my ears are not that discriminating to be able to tell the difference in balanced and unbalanced distortion. As long as the darn thing sounds good to me...

Jeff

Keep in mind that the spec'd distortion levels on components means almost nothing. For starters, a manufacturer will never reveal the spectra of the distortion generated, especially if it consists completely of odd order harmonics. Additionally, in the case of power amplifiers, the distortion measurements are taken at higher wattages where the ratio of distortion to signal is greatest. If you look at the distortion verses output plots of most amplifiers, you will see that the distortion is much higher at low levels, such as around 1 watt, where most actual listening takes place.

A favorite manufacturer's argument is that since distortion is "so low" to start with, the fact that it is odd order doesn't matter. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Our ears can hear levels of 5th, 7th, 9th etc odd order distortion that "measure" in the .00x% range as a hardening and sterile quality to the sound.

In contrast, most people cannot hear 2nd order harmonic distortion at levels even exceeding 1% to 5% since the even order components are directly musically realated as the simple addition of octaves above the original frequencies.

Thank god I don't have your ears....

I agree with jcmccorm that the 990's RCA pre-amp outputs are almost certainly unbalanced. The XLR's may be truly balanced outputs, but the vast majority of us who are going to be interested in the 990 are going to pair it up with unbalanced amps and it makes the most sense for the 990's RCA's to be independent of any balancing circuits that might be included.

Let's hope so, but sometimes what "makes sense" is not what happens in the consumer electronics arena where marketing department mentality frequently overrides design decisions that would be less "sexy", but would ultimately sound better.

Holy Crap! I must be absolutely deaf and my system must sound like total doodoo.
1.) HTPS-7000 w/Dual Balanced Isolation Power Transformers
2.) Krell HTS 7.1 w/direct coupled circuitry utilizing balanced outputs
3.)BlueJeansCables Balanced ICs
4.) ATI 3007 true differential balance design amp from input to output

It is no wonder I prefer tubed and analog sources.... Sounds like I should get rid of this crap and buy a new 990/790 combo to pick up those even order harmonics.

Soundhound...

Is the same true in Amps as well as pre-amps?...more so or less so?

Should I look for an unbalanced amp to go with the 990 (assuming it is unbalanced, and I get one)?

Thanks

Even though I was being facetious, there was a point there. You can bench race specs, distortion numbers et. al. til your blue in the face BUT in the end, its your ears that tell you what is acceptable and what is not.

Jeff

That could be a problem as the rumor I heard is that the new 790 is based on the ATI 2007 .

I would expect that there would be those who disagree with what I've been saying - especially those who happen to own equipment that uses balanced designs.

My conclusions are not based on any one system or systems. They are based on 34 years of working in audio in many capacities from circuit design to media creation. They are based on literally hundreds of blind and double blind listening tests. They are based on working with both balanced and unbalanced designs, simple and complex designs and everything in-between.

To your specific example, I can only suggest the not very practical test of replacing all your signal electronics with completely unbalanced designs which use simpler circuits, and then tell me if you hear a difference.

I am actually looking at the Gemstone Blue Diamond, or similar.

If I decide to go separates, I want a power amp I won't need to trade up for a long time.

The 990, OTOH, looks like a killer "starter" pre-pro for now. Though if it really sounds great, I will at least keep it until newer formats are standardized.

It certainly has most of the features I want now, and no one can complain about the price...At least know one I know...

Everything I've written is above all based on real-world listening. I only provide the theoritical background to back up and clarify what I say.

Power amps are actually more likely to be balanced from input-to-output. Personally, I'd stay away from those designs.

Been there, done that, many times. When comparing unbalanced vs balanced connections, I much prefer the total background blackness and lack of noise. Without the background grain, detail and resolution is greatly increased to my ears. To gain the "musicaliy" related to even order harmonics, I use tubed sources, and in spite of your claim that balanced connections eliminate this, I can easily hear the difference between a tube stage output on a player and an SS one.

After years of searching and testing gear, this is the sound that I like best. YMMV.

BTW, FYI... here is a pic of my Universal Multichannel Music Player.


The sub(.1)channel is upgraded but (not tube driven) remains SS.

That's the best part about all of this. There's a combination for everybody's tastes!

Have you actually measured the amount of noise in your system to determine the nature of your problem? Maybe that "blackness" can be achieved by much less drastic means than balanced ciruits. It's far better to avoid noise in a system by good gain structure, good cable routing, and power line filtering when needed than to use balanced audio circuits as a band-aid.

The tube circuitry you mention actually illistrates my point about simplicity. Tube circuits are vastly simpler than their solid state counterparts, are more linear in their native state and as a result they do not require anywhere near the amount of negative feedback that typical solid state gear does. However even a fully balanced tube circuit will cancel the even order harmonic distortion products, which totally defeats the purpose of using tubes in the first place.

I have an old Audio Research tube power amplifier that is fully balanced, and it sounds much inferior to less expensive but simpler unbalanced tube amps I have.

The single ended triode amplifier that I use to drive my high frequency horns has an extremely simple circuit that uses no global negative feedback - it only has two tubes per channel and a few resistors and capacitors. It sounds wonderful as a result.

What problem? I never view sonic improvements in my system as eleviating a problem, but merely, as a gradual process of improvement taking place over time.

Obviously, you don't know me very well. I've had dozens of amps, preamps and sources and this system as it exists is the one which sounds best to me, due primarily to its' total lack of background noise and its' neutrality. They allow me to alter my sources to get the sound I prefer.

Those are givens/basics, not solutions, IMO. You also need to include room conditioning/treatments as well.

Not a band aid by any means to me. They are but one piece to a sonic puzzle which I prefer. YMMV.

Moonhawk: I have a Blue Diamond amp, and it is fantastic! You won't be sorry if you get one.

I am strongly considering getting an Outlaw 990 as the pre-pro to pair with the Gemstone. I am currently using an Integra receiver (DTR 9.1) as the front-end of my system, but it can't do everything the 990 can (or will, when they are here).

What are you taking about? You CANNOT have a balanced "signal" on RCA's. To say or even suggest a balanced signal may be going down an RCA is obsurd and laughable at best. IT SIMPLY CANNOT. There aren't enough wires in an RCA to support "balanced".

XLR's have TWO wires for signal transmission and a third wire for reference whereas an RCA has ONE for signal and ONE for reference.

The "balancing" is typically nothing more then a op-amp which creates a copy of the signal with the phase shifted 180 degrees.

There are TWO signals going down the XLR - The normal one and the copied inverted one. From those two signals it is very easer to detect distortion on the receving end - differences are rejected.

What are you taking about? You CANNOT have a balanced "signal" on RCA's. To say or even suggest a balanced signal may be going down an RCA is obsurd and laughable at best. IT SIMPLY CANNOT. There aren't enough wires in an RCA to support "balanced".

XLR's have TWO wires for signal transmission and a third wire for reference whereas an RCA has ONE for signal and ONE for reference.

The "balancing" is typically nothing more then a op-amp which creates a copy of the signal with the phase shifted 180 degrees.

There are TWO signals going down the XLR - The normal one and the copied inverted one. From those two signals it is very easer to detect distortion on the receving end.

All electronics stages generate some amount of noise. The more stages there are, the more noise gets added. There is no such thing as an absolutely noise free piece of electronic equipment - at least until room temperature super conductors are perfected. The most noise free preamp is a completely passive one, with no active electronics stages at all, but even this is not totally noise free.


Sounds like somebody's marketing department has been feeding you some bad information.

Actually, I have used RCAs for balanced circuits - the only thing is that they have to be isolated electrically from the component's chassis. A balanced line comprises two conductors: a ground reference is not necessary. Therefore a two conductor jack (if you count the shell, which is normally grounded in an unbalanced circuit) such as an RCA or BNC can be used, again, as long as it's shell is not in contact with a grounded chassis.

I wonder if it would be fruitful to take the discussion of balanced ins and out to another topic, since something like the last 20 posts or so dwell on this more general issue, rather than the model 990 itself? My apologies if such suggestions are frowned upon on this site, since I've only been posting here for a short time.

Mark

I brought it up originally because the 990 has balanced outputs, and there are a lot of mis-conceptions about the usefulness of this type of connection. Manufacturers feed the fire with even more misleading information.

It is perfectly applicable to the subject at hand.

In any event, I've made my case and I'll leave it at that.

awful grouchy lately, sh.

Hello Pat, gonk, Jeff, merc, soundhound, etc!

Hey there, Soundhound,

A few years ago when you visited my home to hear my 950 system you noted it sounds better in pure stereo without any artifacts caused by Dolby Pro or DTS Neo processing. As good as that processing is, it sometimes takes something away from the stereo sound. You said at the time, you weren't surprised that regular stereo sounds more accurate and is able to better represent the sound engineer's intention, compared to the stereo after it's been Dolby-ized or DTS-ified. That's one reason I hoped DVD-A and SACD would catch on, back then. But what you said just now, above

> CD is going to be the only game in town for the best quality audio I'm afraid.

would mean, if ture, that we're stuck for the time being with CDs, a technology that's over 20 years old!

Best,

Will

Using that logic I guess you can use two coat hangers for a balanced "cable" as well.

The ground refence IS there by way of common ground from the power source. Put the two components on 100% ISOLATED power sources and yer "balance" RCA cable jerry-rig setup no longer works.

The ground reference is absolutely required; that is if you plan on ignoring signal differences (read: magnetic induction interference).

To slightly change the subject from balanced connections to a different 990-related issue, there's an article at Video Business Online today that I stumbled across at The Digital Bits. It gets into HD-DVD and Blu-Ray. The article can be found here , but you'll need to register (it's free, so I went ahead and registered).

Here's the gist of it: HD-DVD is due out by the fourth quarter, but there are now concerns about that timetable because the technical specs and licensing scheme are still unresolved. Those were due to be finalized by the end of March in order to hit the Q4 2005 format launch, but estimates now point to some time this summer before either are done. Until those issues are pinned down, nobody can design players or produce discs, which means that the HD-DVD release could be delayed until early 2006 (around the same time that Blu-Ray is due to hit the US). This problem seems to be combining with management changes at Toshiba and Sony to create a cautious interest by both sides at possibly averting the HD-DVD/Blu-Ray format war and agreeing to a single unified format. I'd seen a couple of hints in the last week or so about Sony expressing a willingness to talk, and now this article suggests that the HD-DVD camp is also open to talks.

What this means for us as consumers is that we may not be faced with a format war in 2006, which is obviously in our best interests. It would also mean that the arrival of a high definition optical disc format could be delayed by up to two years while they hammer out a single standard that everybody is comfortable with.

What this means for companies like Outlaw is that attempting to plan for the audio and video formats associated with HD-DVD/Blu-Ray is extremely risky, bordering on outright loony. They might be able to include something that appears compatible now (although I'm not sure that's even possible without delaying the product for six months or more), but they run the risk of ending up with an incompatible product when the formats finally show up and a slew of unhappy customers who paid extra for broken technology. All they can do now is support the formats that exist today and include the 7.1 input to allow for external decoders (presumably built into the players, much like DVD players have done with Dolby Digital and DTS) for those future formats.

Man, this announcement came at the perfect time! I am just finishing my buildout of a new home theater and I was looking to buy a new pre/pro. Gotta get the 990 - can't wait to here how to get on the list to buy at $1100....

The particular implementation I was speaking of was for internal wiring inside a mixing console I was building. For module-to-module connection, this was a space saving and inexpensive solution. The balancing was done with transformers, so there actually was no ground reference. As I mentioned before, I was using shoulder washers with the RCAs so that no contact was made to the chassis at either end.

I'm not suggesting using RCAs routinely for balanced connections, but just that I have used them in equipment with good results when the use of other types of connectors didn't make sense.

Electrons don't know or care what type of connector they're flowing though as long as that connector is otherwise suitable.

Boy, I get stuck in a bunch of meetings all morning, and I come back to a college seminar on balanced circuit topography. We've got some folks here getting into some good back-and-forth about balanced circuits, but I think there are some others hiding in between that want to debate other things - like how many people think they'll use Dolby Headphone, or how many possibilities come to mind for the second zone output now that there is a dedicated remote to control it. I thought I might offer an alternative venue - specifically this thread - that could let this debate continue in great and informative detail without running the risk of drowning out other discussions about the 990.

Ever the diplomat.

Speaking of a second zone remote, how is the extra remote enabled to control the second zone from a different location in the house. Some kind of repeater(s) on a wall(s) that eventually sends the signal to the 990?

And it sure would be nice to have a look at the manual for the 990. It must exist if the production models have shipped.

The great thing about the 990 is it has both balanced and unbalanced outputs, and we will not know what their design is until further info is furnished by the Outlaws. However, based on their other gear, I believe that both outputs will perform as they should. As for what sounds best, I can only hear what my ears allow me (too many nearby artillery rounds at the outgoing and incoming end, and not on some sound stage)) so I really don't care what anyone else hears. With that said, for telco transmission we always sent program and video on unbalanced 75ohm for short distances, and balanced 124ohm for long differences.

Presumably the second zone is a simple IR remote, which means that if you are running it from another room you would need to have an IR receiver and some wire to get signals from that other room back to the equipment rack. There looks to be at least one rear IR input, so you wouldn't necessarily even need to stick an emitter on the 990's face to deliver the signal.

They may be shaking the bugs out of the manual - it it's like project specifications, it's one of the last things that gets done.

Soundhound,
I don't mind you having an opinion on any kind of circuit design topology, but your statement above assumes that I, or anyone, is unable to discern which preamps and amps sound more transparent and neutral and that when we find those components which best fit our sonic requirements, our opinions are somehow based on the marketing bullshit being thrown our way.

Not only does your statement seem outwardly pompous in nature, but is downright insulting to those of us who make our equipment decisions on what sounds best to us and not on some "marketing" bullshit being thrown to us by fellow forum members.

I respect your opinions on balanced and unbalanced circuits, but would appreciate them even more if you respected our opinions as well in return.

BTW, I agree that the Gemstone is a very nice amp... and the company is owned by my friend Steve who also recommended and sold to me my Balanced Output Krell HTS 7.1.

Now... back to the 990.

Does anyone know if the 990 will have any sort of auto-eq feature?

One question I have is, does this require special headphones? Or is it a way to make regular stereo headphones sound like more than stereo?

Thanks,

We know there's an auto setup of some sort in there, but it's not clear what it attempts to do. The newsletter mentions "speaker size, delay and output levels" but not eq.

According to Dolby.com, Dolby Headphone will work with any headphones.

Now don't get all up in a snit. I only stated that there are no electronic devices that are totally devoid of noise, which you seemed to imply. If somebody has told you otherwise, they were feeding you bad information.

You are way out of line with the profanity.

Pat,
It uses regular headphones but must be of sufficient quality in order to use high impedence headphones.

I spent some time with the Anthem D1, which also has Dolby Headphone, and was able to use my Sennheiser 600s with it, without a problem, and thoroughly enjoyed watching movies using headphones. You won't probably get the same levels of bass and of course no sound pressure waves during explosions, but, Dolby Headphone is the best there is, IMO, for watching a movie late at night or when the baby is sleeping.

As for how the 990's Headphone amp and Dolby Headphone compares to that of the uber expensive Anthem D1, remains to be seen, and heard.

Soundhound (or anyone else)

So, what amp(s) do you recommend I look at in the same price range (sub $3K) as the Gemstone, since it is balanced?--7Channels..decent power?

I'm really more interested in high end music audio, since I figure if it can do that, I'll be more than happy with it's movie performance.

I wish that I had the knowledge that some of the posters around here do, but let me offer my humble input:

I have heard the difference between balanced and unbalanced connections between preamp and amp, and WOW! The balanced connections produced a complete lack of hiss/hum that was present with the unbalanced connections. The amount of hiss/hum present with unbalanced was not unusual for midfi equipment, but when the low amount of hiss/hum was GONE with the balanced connections, the music sounded so much more lively and wonderful. I have to say that any nth-order distortion effect problems that soundhound mentioned, were completely overwhelmed by the positive improvement to the music that the "totally black" background and dramatically lowered noise floor offered.

I wish my pre/pro had balanced outs. In fact, if it did, I would probably consider using it with high-quality active biamped monitor speakers, and thus avoid using any external amplifier at all! Can anyone here offer any advice about that idea? I am still a relative newbie to all this stuff, so I can't (and don't wish to) argue with soundhound or others about the electronic specifics - I can only rely on my own ears here!

I am very glad to see that Outlaw is offering balanced outs on their new pre/pro, and this is actually a major selling point for me (I think...)

All we can do is try to find the system which is the most neutral and most noise free to our own ears. And in my current gear, that point was reached when I switched from RCA to XLR balanced connections. And, I now have more information from you on this topic than I ever got from any equipment company, so to switch back would mean that I was simply following your marketing hype?

As were you in your reply... I think the current score is 2 BS's for me, and 2 BS's for you. Seems like we're tied. If the word BS really bothered you, I'd recommend that you not post it in your quotes anymore. In the future, so not to inflame your sensibilites, I'll use the abbreviation BS.

I'm not asking you to switch your equipment to anything, and I am not "marketing" anything since that implies selling something for profit. If giving information here is "marketing" then everybody on this forum is a "marketeer". Join the club.

I just personally think that your original noise problem could have been solved without the cost of going with balanced equipment. But it's your money and your time, right?

It's amazing what a new processor from Outlaw can do - it brings back the dead! I wasn't sure if my Outlaw forum account was still active but it's great that it is. It looks like I may have finally found the replacement for my 950 and a little sooner than I actually expected it. From the newsletter it looks to be very competitive and the addition of XLR outputs is welcomed (although one balanced input would have been nice). For those disputing the pros and cons of XLR circuits there's strong opinions in both camps so perhaps we could switch the discussion to wire ?

It will be interesting to see the specs and manual when they're available as this looks to be a very capable unit. The automated EQ feature seems to be the current trend and might help cure some room problems depending on how sophisticated the software is. I had been sniffing around an Anthem but I'm going to give the 990 a whirl before I even consider another processor.

I was one of the first to be on the 950 reservation list and I now intend to be one of the first on the 990 list. You suckers better be ready because my mouse hand is going into training and I've got a really fast internet connection :p . I do have one question for the forum members that have been around a while: Do you think the 990 comes with a pony?

Ooh, a pony? That takes me back a ways... I think the rumor is that due to the upgrades it'll be shipping with a clydesdale instead.

you said just now, above

> CD is going to be the only game in town for the best quality audio I'm afraid.

would mean, if true, that we're stuck for the time being with CDs, a technology that's over 20 years old!


Careful now...I owned a CD player 20 years ago. You bring that up and I start feeling REALLY old.

Thanks for making my day!

if that clydesdale is pulling some kind of wagon,i might be able to come up with $1100.

I really wanted that pony. By now it is probably being put out to stud!

So, back to my last question about the 990...is a quadruple crossover one that crosses the mains, center, sides, and rears independantly?

Here is a pic of the 990 that comes with the Clydsdale...

Merc,

where'd the green button go!?

Headphones image in your head; the soundstage is often described as 'wearing a stereo hat'.

Dolby Headphone attempts to give externalized sound when listening with headphones. It works with 2-channel and 5.1-channel material. With multi-channel, it actually tries to give some front vs surround directionality.

Personally, I've never found the results very sucessful. There were a couple of demos where for very brief moments I thought I was listening to speakers in front of me. But it was fleeting.

Still, it's nice to have to option.

The bottom line is, that know one will know what this unit is going to sound like with or without balanced outs until they try it in there own systems with there own electronics and room acoustics involved.

I found many years ago, that for me to purchase a piece of audio equipment based on others reviews, opinions, and specs was utterly foolish. One needs to remember that each reviewer uses different electronics, cables, room acoustics etc... not to mention ears, than what you are probably going to be using. Also, what’s one mans junk is another’s treasure. This surely holds true in the audiophile world. My theory has been to check the quality of the internal parts etc... and then to fully audition the piece in my own system. If it pleases my ears, I could care less about another’s review or the pros and cons of things like balanced and unbalanced outputs. While reading and learning about these things is interesting and thought provoking. The bottom line for me is how a piece sounds and performs for me, period. When one uses there ears as the final word regarding an audio purchase, they most likely will always be happy with it for as long as they own it. Also, on another note one needs to take into account the cost factor, and compare apples to apples, within a given price range. I believe that the only competition in the 990’s price range would be receivers. I have spent far more $'s on a pre pro. Even the very first units put out by Jim Fosgate in the early 90’s were much more expensive. In fact my very first pre pro was a Fosgate 4 and it set me back $2,500. over ten years ago, go figure. $1,100 sounds very inexpensive for a pre pro to me.

Just My .02 cents worth,

I too am looking at the Anthem AVM30 but can't wait to see the specs and manual on this.

Great timing Scott!

BTW, I will be using XLR cables for balanced connections to my Carver ZR series digital amps. Quite a debate going on here about that. No problem; to each his own. Great article here:

http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/audioprinciples/interconnects/Balancedvsunbalanced.php

Very well said, I couldn't agree more. It's a good point about associated equipment often overlooked and sometimes these differences can be major. After a while reading reviews I started to realize how important it would be to read the associated equipment list. It will tell you a lot about the reviewer. Many times, I will read the list and see what I would consider many limiting factors that would make me question the reviewers results. Like reviewing a universal player with basically a home theater in a box system etc. Of course, it's all about the equipment that YOU like listening to but someones findings with a HTIB is not applicable to my experience.

JHUNT, please tell me what you thought of the Fosgate 4. It was a very highly regarded unit. I use a Citation 7.0 which was related to that unit is ways I understand. I love it and in my opinion, paired with a quality SACD/CD player, it's spoiled me for getting analog surround out of a 2-channel source. I've auditioned many pre/pros and I just can't hear any that sound better. Some sound as good, but not enough to make me pay more for them.

Still, I will be interested in the 990. I may get one to demo. It would simplify my system a lot.

The pony... the pony... how many pages did we fill about the pony? I'd forgotten all about that! Thanks for the trip down memory lane, Audioholic.

If your amplifer uses an XLR that is wired as an unbalanced input with pin 2 hot and pins 1 and 3
grounded will you get any kind of benefit connected to the 990?

I guess we won't be recreating the great outlaw logo debate of 2002 this time huh??? Darn! well don't care I'm keeping my unbalanced 750 (with original classic logo and nostalgic green button) and the pony of course stays .. but 950 my old friend, well, parting will be sweet sorrow (sniff).

and now for a poem:

one fish
two fish
red dot
blue dot

thats as far as I got.

No. The XLR input on the amp is then there for cosmetic purposes only since you lose the benefit right afterwards.

As an example, the new ATI and Theta Dreadnaught amps are fully differential balanced from input until it has to go the the +/- speaker terminals. There's where you get your benefit of low noise and no ground loops.

The Dreadnaught is zero feedback too.

What Outlaw should have done in their design phase is see the writing on the wall and put in the latest HDMI inputs and outputs for audio and video and had the firmware controller for it software upgradeable in case the spec. changed somewhat. That's what Integra did for their ever upgradeable pre-amp.

If there is a way to add these new high resolution, lossless and uncompressed audio features to the processor, you still would need HDMI with the latest encryption standards to carry the audio bitstreams to the pre-amp. I doubt Hollywood will allow any other way.

Maybe the regular legacy codecs like standard Dolby Digital and DTS and stereo PCM will be allowed to travel through coaxial and toslink outputs (since this is the most these limited bandwidth connections can handle), but the reason to move to HD-DVD and/or Blu-Ray is also for the better audiophile grade audio too, not lossy audio (which is just there for backwards compatibility).

There are a whole slew of new receivers and pre-amps coming out soon that include HDMI in some form or another (and many are adding enough extra horsepower to add these new formats via software). That's one reason the 990 is "sucking hind tit" before it's even been released. I don't know why DTS and Dolby (besides reps from the Blu-Ray camp and DVD Forum) weren't in communication to let them know what was approved and what was not, so they could be ready. Maybe something broke down during all this.

I'd love to support Outlaw by buying another one of their products, but these high res. disc formats have me on a holding pattern.

Dan

Does anyone know if the analog bass management is for all 7.1 channels?

And can you apply the auto correction--speaker size and distance--in the analog domain?

"Does anyone know if the analog bass management is for all 7.1 channels?"

Does anyone know for sure that the 990 actually has analog bass management support on the "direct" inputs?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by texaspledge:

JHUNT, please tell me what you thought of the Fosgate 4.

I personally thoroughly enjoyed the Fosgate piece right up until the time we parted ways, and I received my citation 7. I as well find the 7 very enjoyable, but I will be replacing it soon for functionality reasons. I have auditioned the Sherwood P-965 and found it to sound overly edgy in my system. I did like the ease of use and set up of the Sherwood though, and the Sherwood is built to last with quality internals galore. I have auditioned the Dennon 3805 in my system as well, and did not care for it at all. To shorten this post I will say that I have auditioned four other pieces at higher price points then the fore mentioned, and I am looking forward to auditioning the new Outlaw pre pro in my system. After the Outlaw review, I will compile all my notes, and make a decision on a pre pro for my system, and my listening pleasure.

Folks should not confuse speaker auto-setup with room eq.

Considering how many receivers now come with some form of room eq., it sure would have been nice if the Outlaws had included this feature on the new 990...Audyssey's MultEQ comes to mind. Guess I'll have to wait....

As for the bass management on the 7.1 analog input, I don't think we know exactly how it is being implemented - I have no doubt that whatever solution is in place works for all 7 full-range channels, but whether it is an analog 80Hz crossover similar to the 950 or an option to convert to the digital domain and apply bass management (similar to what Anthem has done) is still unknown.

I've been poking around a bit on the HDMI issue over the last few days. In theory, it's a great idea - audio and video in a single connection, and the video side is very well nailed down. The problem appears to be implementation of the audio side. Dan points out that HD-DVD and Blu-Ray will use HDMI for audio and will support some evolution of Dolby Digital and DTS over HDMI. The problem is that despite some of the trade show press, the formats and the audio signal standards are not pinned down yet. Look at my post near the bottom of page 5 for some of the neest reasons that this is the case - HD-DVD is running behind on finalizing the standard, which prevents hardware designs from being completed. Based on what Outlaw said in their newsletter and some other things I've read, it looks to me like Outlaw had to choose between three options: wait indefinitely for a guaranteed final standard for audio over HDMI (which could take a year or more, depending on how the HD-DVD/Blu-Ray issue shakes out over the next six months or so, leaving them with no new processor during the wait); include today's HDMI hardware and software and hope that the hardware will support the final software (a gamble that could backfire and strand thousands of customers on a platform with HDMI that is only good for video switching); or use DVI to cover digital video switching and get the 990 into people's equipment racks this spring so they can enjoy it during the months and years it takes for this all to shake out.

Are you sure that a room EQ is not included with the 990 unit?

www.prillaman.net/950_chart.html

The 990's entries in that chart are based on Outlaw's Sunday night newsletter, and the "auto calibration" line there refers to automatic setup in general, not necessarily room equalization. Based on the P-965 manual, I believe that its auto setup is purely distance, level adjustment, and small/large. The MC-12 v3 upgrade the same way, based on Lexicon's site.

I was wondering the same thing. the 990 is missing the infamous green button.

Not at all!

Does anyone other then the powers that be at outlaw or the pre production testers, know for sure that room equalization is not incorporated in the 990’s feature set?
I would like to suggest to the Outlaw crew that they release the full feature list as well unit specs and an internal parts list. Releasing this information in know way would contribute to disappointment of delivery expectations, and in fact will clear up some of the unnecessary speculating and debate that is now going on. I find a lot of this speculation and debate annoying and unproductive. It concerns me that the powers that be are not seeing this as a negative, and eliminating the confusion by providing all the available technical information on the 990.

I don't think anyone knows for certain. I have assumed that because it was not mentioned as one of the aspects of auto calibration in the newsletter on Sunday that it most likely does not. As for a more complete feature list, I agree that it would be good to get our hands on that, and I expect that we will see more information when the next newsletter arrives in the next week or so. I do not expect to see an internal parts list, only because I've never seen such a list for other Outlaw components.

How about a dumb question? At what separation distance between a 990 and 755 would you expect that you should used balanced vs unbalanced interconnects? Or should you always use the balanced?

I don't think you can use the balanced outputs to the 755. It doesn't have the connectors to handle them.

The answer to that will open up a can of worms between the balanced vs. unbalanced camps!

I use balanced over RCA connectors at any length, long or short. With unbalanced connectors, I believe the general rule is just to keep runs as short as possible. I personally wouldn't go over 6 feet. The 755 does not have XLR inputs as was stated in the previous post.

I don't think anyone knows for certain. I have assumed that because it was not mentioned as one of the aspects of auto calibration in the newsletter on Sunday that it most likely does not.

--------------------
gonk



I totally understand gonk, and I hope that you understand, that I am not suggesting that your assumption was or is inappropriate or wrong. My point was and is, that "the powers that be" opened the door for this kind of speculation and are remaining to leave it open. I personally don’t believe this to be a good business decision on their part, but it is their decision to make, not mine. I am just expressing and sharing my thoughts and opinions.

I don't think it's a dumb question at all. It's a question that can have a lot of different answers, though.

For the Model 755 or any other amp with only unbalanced inputs, there isn't really a question at all - unbalanced is the only option. If you own an amp with balanced and unbalanced inputs, I would suggest trying both and deciding which you prefer. If you are planning to buy an amp at the same time you buy the 990, then you have the option of buying an amp with unbalanced connections only (which will typically be less expensive) or buying one with both balanced and unbalanced connections. At that point, all I would suggest is that you try to identify a few amps that you might be interested in and demo them to see if they fit your needs. For what it's worth, I expect that most 990 owners will use unbalanced. I know I will (my amps only have unbalanced inputs), and I will do so with no qualms about it.

The big question remains. Will Outlaw have a balanced amp to go with the 990 at the time of the 990 release? I would be willing to bet they have something up their sleves for those wishing balanced connections.

Jeff

We know that the 790 is in development (see Pat's pictures from last year ), and that it will offer balanced inputs as well as unbalanced. I suspect that either the next newsletter or the HE show later this month will shed some more light on the 790's status.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the Outlaw multi-channel amps are made in California, in the same facility that make ATI equipment. Also, ATI has an amp that is (in my oppinion) a direct relative of the new 790 Outlaw amp. So my guess is that these amps may already be in boxes, ready to ship with the 990's when they are reach shore.

Also, if any one wants a green button, let the Outlaws supply an accessory velcro cover for the new power buttons. Everyone gets what they want... but I will not miss the green button. Gonk, as you will soon find out, babies will lock in on that green buttion and push it at the first opportunity. Mark my words...

Allan

I second the wish for Audessey's MultEQ (and if possible Mult EQ XT). That and HDMI would put the 990 over the top

At least when you want to post a reply you still have to "push" a green button.

When is the "blue dot" version going to be available?

Audessey MultiEQ looks cool on paper, but what is it EQing? Since it appears to do its' job digitally(with DSPs), no one serious about good source units is gonna use it. So, that leaves its' use for movie soundtracks and DVD-Video concerts? I'd much rather Outlaw keep the price down low so we can afford to buy a nice parametric analog EQ unit(like the Rane or Symetrix) which we can then use for all our music and movie uses, stereo and multichannel, while preserving the source sound we prefer without redigitizing it.

Does that make sense, or... am I missing something about this MultiEQ system?

Now that I think about it though... you'd need multiple analog EQs and you'd need the setup program from Audessey in order to them program the analog EQs for multichannel use.

Jeez... I wish there was an easy way to do this without an extra A/D/A conversion...

a good A/D/A is unnoticeable. The Audyssey system promises to make stuff like the Rane analog peq.'s seem like something out of the stone age. Read up on it on the Audioholic website and you'll see. FIR filters are to analog peq as brain surgery is to hitting somebody over the head with a hammer.

I use a BFD for my SVS sub and Behringer DSP 8024s for each channel. The 8024s are stereo 31 band digital EQs with auto room calibration for each channel. They sound fantastic. There is no added noise or grain in my system that I can hear. I can tell you that my system is much better with the EQs than without. Room correction really helps.

Gonk, just a little more info on the new audio formats. I read your post earlier and now I am confused. Are the new audio formats coming out for HD dvd players (which ever format they choose) deliver audio out in HDMI format only. In other words will they have no allowance for DVI and a toslink audio, or stritly just HDMI? Or is it just too soon to know?

Also what good are balanced outs when the Outlaws dont make a balanced amp? Or do they? HMMMMMM.....

I wonder if Outlaw's server is going to burn out from all this activity!

Balanced Pre/Pro, balanced amp, what about cables? Are those in the queue as well?

I think it's reasonable to assume that Outlaw soon will be a one-stop-shop for all your preamp, amp and cabling needs.

I tossed a DEQ2496 into my system just to try it out. It's the newer version of the 8024, and includes the same D/A converter that's in the 950, I believe.

At any rate, I was simply trying it and didn't expect to keep it in. It's there to stay. Room correction is a good thing, especially after the room has been acoustically treated as well as possible.

For stereo playback without extra A/D/A conversion, I run a digital out from a dedicated CD player to the digital in on the DEQ.

If you want to run a balanced line to your amp because of distance or a hostile sonic environment but don't have balanced inputs on your amp, you can. Simply use a Jensen PC2-XR at the amp end. It's a passive device that easily meets audiophile standards and has a 4:1 stepdown transformer that outputs to unbalanced RCAs. It's also a isolation transformer, so between the balanced interconnects and the PC2-XR, you won't have any noise.

After placing my order for the 950 and waiting on a reserve list, and what seemed to be just over a year in waiting. I hope I can hold back the urge to sign up early again. I really want to make sure no one hears the HISS, at 10" inches or 10' ft, with volume up or down. I could not stand to go through the red dot, blue dot and the final fix again. Months where all production stopped, and people pulling their hair out 24/7. Everyone posting about the pony and explaining sponge Bob. All I can say is here we go again. First I get a Outlaw update newsletter and the first thing I do is check out the site for new, news. Line them ponies' up, here we go again. DOBEMAN

I can't claim to be the ultimate expert on this subject, but from what I have seen, the problem appears to simply be that we don't know. There will be audio via HDMI for any HD format. There will also be new audio formats (Dolby Digital Plus, for example). The catch currently is that nothing beyond that is quite finalized - if you look at the Blu-Ray FAQ, for example, the supported audio codecs are not even worked out yet. Will DD Plus and its DTS counterpart require the bandwdith of HDMI? It's a possibility, although some of the literature I found on DD Plus suggests that it is intended to work within existing bandwidth limitations and even to allow compatibility with existing DD decoders (presumably without the full benefits of the format). I would assume that there will still be audio data of some sort available via optical or coaxial digital output, but since things still seem up in the air with both HD disc formats it's hard to tell for sure what that data might include. Heck, there may even be non-technical reasons (copy protection, specifically) that lead to any new audio formats being restricted to encrypted HDMI or multichannel analog output from HD disc players, similar to the restrictions placed on DVD-Audio and SACD. Time will tell...

A quick check of the original announcement doesn't reveal any mention of firewire....

Seems that would be useful, as it's the only digital connection currently allowed to carry all formats.

If it has fireiwre i.link, it'd get the 990. If it doesn't, I'll be keeping my 950 while waiting for a budget pre/pro that comes with it. One is bound to be made, sooner or later.

Will

Thanx, Az. That's the answer I was looking for. If I probably will have to put the preamp in my 'other' rack since the preamp's taller now, since it's about 6 feet away, I'd need some passive way to change over from balanced to unbalanced. I didn't know there was an equivalent audio balun to an RF one, but figured somebody had to have a solution for that.

I agree with Gonk... and add, that if we take history to lesson, the connection which will pass a protected signal will change as the HD-DVD/Bluray players are produced and begin to evolve.

When SD-DVDs started, component video was considered de-rigor for up to HD resolution connections. Then Hollywood got paranoid, and us early adopting HDTV owners got screwed by SD-DVD players which only gave their best resolutions via DVI-D/HDMI connections.

Unless you've got LOTS of money to blow.... I'd wait to buy into HD-DVD/Bluray until they are at least a few versions into the format... otherwise, prepare to buy a new display to match Hollywoods paranoia.

Those who don't learn from history, are doomed to repeat it.

Ahhhh.... How nice... A new PrePro from Outlaw!!! My Lexicon may take this one personal...

Thanks,
Steve Simon
WWW.HomeTheaterForum.Com
Administration

I'm with Perfect....this is just a little to soon for my HT room but I actually think that it is a blessing in disguise. I figure they released the 990 now because the 1070 is a 950 killer and they needed a replacement first. I know that many of you are pure pre/pro guys but I'd still like to see what the 1070 has going before I invest. My HK3475 really pounds my Studio 60s at half volume, especially with the LFM backing them up. It's much louder than anyone would ever listen to it for any length of time and drives them clean @75W. I have to believe that the 1070 will do the same for movies @65W. I know that seperates are always the best but if you aren't running full towers does it still make sense to spend that extra $$? Of course we don't know the features on the 1070 yet and there may be something critical missing, but that is why I think it may be smart to hold off. Anyone got an opinion....come on...I know you do!

BTW, with the Outlaw decision to utilize USB I've planned my wiring closet oppsite of my HT room so I don't have to leave a noisy HTPC or server in the same room that I am sitting in. Don't forget, You can only run a USB cable ~15'. Of course you can bridge up to 5 hubs together for longer runs (that makes me cringe) or possibly use a usb ethernet adapter but I'm not sure how that would work on a preamp. Anyone know if it is USB2? I have to believe it is.

I am too excited about the 990...My wife thinks I am going crazy. And for the record I think it looks really cool. And the wife thinks it look simple and elegant. I am ready to drink the cool aid and order one sight unseen...

Anyways..since people are guessing that the 990 is based of the Sherwood P-965, is it right to think we may get the same performce?

If so this could be a winner. The Sherwood P-965 seems to be getting great reviews and holding it's own with more expensive processors.

Hey Merc and Pat..thanks for taking a few for the team on AVS. I thought it was great how mad outlaw seems to make some people over there. Seems people don't like the idea of bang for the buck...makes some of their purchases seem over priced? Maybe:)

There is no single right answer, of course - what is good for one person may not work for another. If there was a single right answer, we'd all be using the same equipment and all we'd have to talk about here is the weather. Based on what we've seen so far, the Model 990 looks extremely interesting, but the Model 1070 (which will cost at least $100 less and won't need separate amplification) will still be a better fit for certain people. If you're on the fence, it makes sense to hang out there for a while and see how it plays out then use Outlaw's 30-day return policy to try out the option that appeals the most.

I don't know if we've heard yet just what all the USB port will do. From the newsletter, it sounds like it will allow for firmware updates to the 990 (as an alternative to the RS-232 port) and apparently audio playback from a PC as well. Like you, I also strongly suspect that it is USB 2.0, but we don't really have anything definitive on that yet.

Wouldn't matter much if it is USB2.0 or 1.1. Streaming music doesn't need a super-fast transfer rate and upgrades won't be that often to matter much if it takes 1min or 10min to do.

Hi Gonk,

I agree that the 990 looks awesome, I just thought I'd bring up an alternative to think about. I'm really just talking myself out of an impulse buy. The Outlaws should clue us in sooner, not so that we can plan how to buy, but how not to! I mean.....my old Sony Trinitron started acting up so I'm planning for my first HDTV, but that requires the new room so I gotta get busy on that, and now THIS! Somethin's gotta give. Know what I mean?

Slee_Stack,

I think it affects the length of cable you can have. I haven't read up on it, but I recall reading once that USB2 devices can operate over longer distances than 1.1. Probably not an issue for most people but it could be.

SH: I thought balanced outputs (i.e., balanced interconnects) remove *all* noise on both sides of the circuit? Why would odd order be any different from even order? The "order" is just the relationship of the added components to the original signal. But out of phase is out of phase, and they should be removed just as well. ??


Drats- no i.Link. I am personally not a fan of HDMI for digital audio transmission. I.Link *can* be a jitterless connection. HDMI cannot be. Maybe not a big deal in the real world, but still an advantage of i.Link over HDMI. (Plus, HDMI may never get the OK for SACD/DSD transmission.)

So now I have to learn some more about the Sherwood P-965. For example, anyone know where it's (ahem) manufactured? I'm surprised there aren't more coax inputs though. Anyone know what the DSP engine is?

Very nice looking!

Kevin,

We're trying to move the balanced interconnect discussion to this thread in the Outlaw to Outlaw section of the forum. I'll repost you're query to SH over there for you.

From what I could find, USB 2.0 is still subject to the 5-meter cable length restriction as USB 1.1. I did stumble across a few extension cables like this one that can get you an extra 40 feet or more by boosting the signal (they are apparently powered by the USB port itself).

WOW, it has been a great week for the announcement that definately shook up things in the audio world. Only three weeks till I see it live at the NYC show. I am really excited to hear this unit. I think we all have been looking at those pictures everyday. A real pat on the back for Outlaw announcing and bringing this out so fast.

Regarding the USB input for audio purposes: I know there's a lot of products out there that use USB to _input_ audio to a PC, but how would one send audio out over USB? I imagine it would just be a matter of software, as I don't recall seeing this on any soundcards?

Ed

Well I might as well hang out here... again... to find out if this is something I want/need.

LQQK

JeffreyMercado - Have fun at the NYC show. I hear that psklenar will also be attending for part of the show, and there may be a few other gunslingers who show up. Remember, those of us stranded far from the big apple will be looking to those of you who do attend to report back to us. Oh, and pictures will help.

x84HurstOlds - I've known of at least one or two devices that plug into USB ports and act essentially as outboard sound cards. One co-worker of mine has a PC that came with no sound card but had USB speakers (with the sound card basically built-in). I'm guessing that the Model 990 (and the RR2150, which also is supposed to sport a USB input for audio playback) will behave similarly. It will be curious to actually see how it behaves, though.

Kevin, http://www.etronics.co.kr/english/index.html

Regarding the Sherwood p965, the back panel photo on Sherwood's site says "designed in USA" and "assembled in Korea". Lots of info on the site:

http://www.sherwoodusa.com/prod_p965.html

Mark

I have the Sherwood P-965 and it really is an incredible sounding pre/pro. If the Outlaw 990 sounds anywhere near as good with all the little bells and whistles they will have a definite winner for $1099.00. I paid $1050.00 street price new for my Sherwood so Outlaw is certainly in line price wise.

I guess it is manufactured in good old Korea? I have to look at my book...

You got a good price on your Sherwood, wingnut - the list price is $1500.

The concensus online certainly has been that the P-965 is an excellent sounding piece of gear. Makes me very curious to hear the 990.

RE: USB output

My old Microsoft sound system outputs from the PC via USB to the MS base unit (which includes the amplification, subwoofer and D/A converter.

The digital audio streams directly out of the computer's USB port and doesn't involve the soundcard at all, although there are soundcards with USB output.

There is a USB audio support driver in Windows, so I would assume that when you connected the USB ports between the 990 and your PC that the device would be recognized. Then you'd just have to be sure that your audio output was being routed to the USB port instead of to a soundcard.

ADDITION TO ORIGINAL POST:

My question is whether the 990 will act as a client to the PC/MAC and you'll be able to browse audio files from the 990, itself, or if you'll have to queue up a playlist of files on the PC (with WMP or some other media player) and stream them out to the 990.

I suspect that the client model won't be implemented -- too much additional "stuff" needed to make that work. The 990 will probably treat the computer as another input device and you'll have to control all playback from the computer. Still a nice feature.

We'll have all these answers soon, I suppose.

Man o man, go away for a couple of days and look what happens. It's taken me a while to read through this one. And apart from a "to balance or not to balance" detour this is all good news.

The question I'm asking myself though is what I'd actually gain based on my present system heart (950/770) by jumping on the 990 wagon. I mean beyond the wild adrenalin pumping, can I get this one past my wife, I want this because I haven't upgraded all winter sort of thing.

For me I guess the biggest draw is the phono stage since I'm looking for a way to get back my analog/vinyl habit that I left long ago. That's one of my reasons for interest in the RR2150 (still waiting. I have lost interest in pursuing balanced connections as I'm not convinced of their advantage. And the DVI switching is all in a wait and see what happens mode due to the inevitable format war that is coming regarding the next step in video.
Also I wonder what the value will actually pan out to be for all these "previously owned" 950's. With all this excitiment it could tip the old supply and demand scale don't you think. Ahh who knows.
It's all good news regardless. Outlaw is keepin right in there. It fun to be a part of it in some way.

Good point. I think that is in the ballpark for the street price of Sherwood (give or take) although the list price is of course, more.

Well hey guys,..
been a long time. I was looking through my mail after being out for a few days and saw one from Outlaw. I haven't been active on the forum for quite some time, but always read the mail when I get one, and check in every now and then,....This one has me reading the whole thread on the new 990.

I'm sure others are curious also, as I have seen two other inquiries in the thread,.....Any idea when and where the internal component list will be available? DAC's, Processing engines,Power supplies,..and so on,....???

What has bee released so far sounds great. A few more details will get us all a lot closer to knowing what to expect from this beast,...

>>>--->

I'm guessing the next newsletter will add some more details - the original newsletter indicates that there will be more information this coming week. Looking forward to more info...

I dare say that if the 990 does not have room EQ, digital support for video, balanced outs etc…, the unit will not be viable for very long. Sherwood is very close to releasing a newer version of the p–965 with all these features as well as an upgraded discrete 2 channel audio section. While supposedly maintaining the current price point on the p-965. There are many other pre-pro manufactures following suit as well.

It does have balanced outs. One thing the 990 doesn't have that I bet the new Sherwood does, is i.Link. Sherwood just released/announced 2 new universal players, and the more expesnive one has i.Link.

http://www.sherwoodusa.com/nc_cat_dvdp.html

If we assume that the Sherwood is not a P-965 with the 990's upgrades included - that it is instead an independent development - do we know when it will be available? It is not listed on their site.

Oops, posted in wrong topic, then moved the post!

So, question for the masses. Do any of you guys have any insight/opinions/experiences on the value of upsampling PCM to 192/24? I mean, Nyquist aside, I can understand the theoretical benefits of sampling an analog source at those rates - better high end extension, better sampling depth, which gives you - um, something - but PCM is just 44.1/16, right? So how does oversampling improve sound quality? And is there a downside - I mean, theoretically at least, wouldn't you run into the problem of resampling "between" the original samples? And what do the extra bits in each sample buy you, if they're not even present in the source?

Oh, and wingnut(4772) - love that handle BTW, that's been a longstanding nickname between me and a couple friends - started with the wingnuts that used to be de rigeur for clamping down cymbals and associated felts to their stands. IIRC, it's also the nickname of Guidebot the friendly helper 'bot on one of my all-time favorite PSX games - Descent Maximum. But anyway, not that we know how similar the internals are, but any comments on the phono stage of the P-965? Long story, but I've got a ton (almost literally) of vinyl sitting here in boxes and I'm planning on buying a decent turntable rig next year to get some of it onto the PC; if the 990's RIAA kung-fu is up to snuff, it might go a ways toward justifying the purchase.

Essentially all current D/A and A/D converters use oversampling and 1 bit conversion (Delta-Sigma, which is what SACD is based on) as their basis of operation. Whether the digital signal is "upsampled" to 192/24 or not is a moot point since the data is oversampled anyway.

That being said, upsampling to 192/24 or 192,000/48 for that matter is not going to give plain old 16 bit 44.1k (or even 24 bit audio) audio any more resolution that is already contained in the file. You can't add resolution that is not already there.

Thanks X84...That's a nickname my friends call me for a variety of reasons :p so it kind of stuck and I like it.

From what I have been gleening from the discussions via Mr. Doherty of Panasonic, Amir of Microsoft, and a gentleman from Sigma chips, and from various articles it looks like HDMI is it. In fact, both HD-DVD and the superior Blu-Ray's specs. were drawn up with HDMI in mind as Hollywood studios were more willing to accept the copy restrictions and encryption levels afforded by the HDMI consortium (ie, bad news for consumers).

Again, I suspect that bandwidth limited lossy formats like regular DTS and regular Dolby Digital, as well as stereo PCM up to 24/96 resolution will be allowed on toslink and coaxial as it is now. That's all the 990 would be good for anyway.

7.1 analog-out with all processing done in the player or HDMI will be the only way to get high resolution video and audio out of HD-DVD or Blu-Ray players. DVI with HDCP may or may not be included for video only transmission depending on the final video specs for both formats (you have to downsample certain color spacing requirements and other features using DVI since it is not as advanced as the newest HDMI specs.).

And this is where the 990 falls quite short... unless, of course, Outlaw will be designing something akin to the well received higher end Anthem pre-amp for their upper tier unit that will be HD-DVD and Blu-Ray capable and fully hardware and software upgradeable with premium audiophile parts.

Unless you really, really want PLIIx (the only really big difference between the 990 and 950) I would suggest waiting a little bit to see what these blue laser discs have in store for us.

That's another question: is the DVI switching function in the 990 fully HDCP compatible?

Correct me if I’m wrong …

Ladies and gents, for any digital signal at least two processes exist, the moving of the data from point A to point B and the manipulation and/or interpretation of the data at point A and point B.

Now if the 990 has the bandwidth and the bus width to handle either DVI or HDMI, but in that process the 990 doesn’t have to manipulate or interpret the data being passed along, then no matter how the formats evolve, developing new ways to create, format, manipulate and interpret the data, the 990 could just pass that data along in the same form it was received. Can't the 990 just be a switch for any data that fits the "pipeline?"

A related aside:

In the professional environments I work, almost all of the live, real time manipulation of audio and video signals is handled separately. An audio-follow-video router might be the only exception.

There have always been pros and cons to separates versus all-in-ones in the audio world. I think the day will come when we’ll want the processing of audio and video to be separate with some form a control data linking the devices so that they can act in a coordinated manner. In the same way that I can keep my 770 amp operating even if I upgrade to the 990 from my 950, eventually I’ll want to be able to upgrade my audio and video processing separately. The Outlaws could have made a real jump on the competition by either separating the video and audio processing into two devices or by making the video and audio processing modular in the same case and hence separately upgradable.

Alas, if Outlaw's product varied that much from everyone else's product in concept, even if it were better, many consumers might avoid something "too different."

I agree on the fate of HDMI as far as what we will see at some point in the future, but I have not been able to find anything online to indicate that there is a clear and sure-fire standard in place for how it will work - heck, there's even a chance (very slim, of course, but still a little promising since it would avert another VHS/Beta or DVD-A/SACD sort of format war) that HD-DVD and Blu-Ray may end up merged into a single format, and the final specs for such a beast are anyone's guess. That the specs will include HDMI for audio and video seems inevitable, but that alone isn't enough to design hardware around. I'd rather see good products get released now than have to wait for the format war to shake out before getting anything new.

The DVI switching has not been identified as being HDCP compliant, but I have to assume that it is - not doing so would be the same as glueing on a set of decorative connectors as far as usefulness is concerned.

I hope they can decide on one format. I wonder why they just dont use a fiber connection for all of the information. Working with fiber at SBC we have not yet found a limitation to the amount of data a fiber can carry. The limitation is the equipement on the ends deciphering the light. We have even put multiple wavelenghts on a single fiber feeding different equipement, such as our upcoming fttp and fttn. But alas that is for pocket protecting super smart people other than me.

there will always be format wars,until we can plug that optical cable into our head and THINK of how we want it decoded...i was going somewhere with this.

oh yeah,to bed!

From the OUTLAWS AIN'T FOOL'N newsletter of April 3rd: "Within the next week to ten days you will receive a more complete Newsletter with full details and specifications on the Model 990."

OK, so it has been 10 days by my math - how about those details?!

-SM

Yeah, I was wondering the same thing......10 days should mean sometime today.....

Maybe tomorrow...

Is there still any idea about when the 90 day price lock starts? From the First day that you can place an order?

Ian

Most shops mean "10 business days" when they say such things, which would mean they've got unti the end of business on Friday to get us that new info. Of course the Outlaws aren't your average shop, so I could be completely wet.

Or, you could be about 2 hours, 2 minutes early

From the 990 FAQ (in regards to EQ features):

"We are familiar with all of the various "Room EQ" systems currently on the market, and while they are a major step forward, we are not yet ready to put the Outlaw name on any of them. We will continue to examine the field and may offer an upgrade when we feel that the EQ system will benefit your listening environment."

I like the idea of an EQ upgrade - that makes my decision much easier.....

This FAQ looks to be some interesting reading. There's a ton of good stuff in there that addresses most or all of the questions that have rattled around this thread (I think they must have been listening... ). Then there's the newsletter that just went out saying that registration for pre-orders opens up this Sunday night, an estimated 30-35 days until shipping might begin (give or take some for freighter transit, customs, and the like), and the new page for the 990 on Outlaw's site. Of particular note there is the photo gallery . Cool....

I think the Outlaws in the FAQ are gently hinting at what I've been saying for some time - don't hold your breath waiting for iLink/Firewire/1394 as a common transport medium. It has no intrinsic DRM, and is (covertly) opposed by content providers.

Too bad.

Well, I have been reading this thread with a GREAT deal of interest and my 950 is less then 2 years old. I am happy with it but now that these specs are out...what to do.

About the lip sync delay, how is it adjusted? I haven't seen a lot of issues with my 950, but are there problems with the audio not matching the video?

Will you be able to get a signal from your connected component cables and output it to the DVI? Or does the DVI output only output information from the DVI input?

The 950's three-way bass management lets me set the bass management frequency individually for different sets of speakers (front, mid and rears), which I use and like, but the Sherwood pre/pro can't do that. I use and like that feature since my front speakers are built to go lower in freqency than my rear speakers can. For now, I'll be keeping my 950.

Where did the picture of the 990 go that is supposed to be on the home page? I really wanted to see the list of specs...well, the FAQ was there at least, very nice.
I wonder how a upgrade to room eq will happen? Software? I have a nice new DEQX for the mains, but refuse to bye 2 more just to do EQ for center and rear (I need the xover for the mains)
Question, do we finally have a real frount panel pushbutton for "direct" input? If I lose my remote on the 950, I get no SACD time...

Its on the Home page now. I'm more than happy with my 950, why can't I wait to get my hands on a 990????

What is "2 channel subwoofer offset"?

Blaineh, try this link for now - I suspect the picture on the home page didn't get posted last night.

Will, the 990 differs from the Sherwood in this regard - it has a quadruple crossover (separate crossover frequencies for the fronts, center, surrounds, and surround back).

JeffreyMercado, the FAQ mentions that "The DVI circuits are a pure switch" which makes me suspect that analog video inputs will not be available at the DVI output.

Jas1, the way I've always understood the issue of lip sync delay is that certain video sources introduce a delay in the video signal because of the video signal processing they apply. This would be for things like upconverting DVD players, standalone video scalars, and stuff like that. The original announcement indicated that the lip sync delay was independently asjustable for each input, so if you had a source that caused this sort of video delay you could dial in an audio delay to bring the two back into sync.

okay, so i was wrong. teh follow up came out last night. i *never* claimed to be right all the time! heck, i'm probably wrong more than i am right!

c'est la vie,

so, with "7.1 channel direct input with digital bass management..." does this completely replicate the functionality of the icbm? would there be any reason to add an icbm to a system that had a 990?

Until we see the manual or get some first-hand experience with one, there's no way to be 100% sure, but here's how I would interpret "7.1 direct input with digital bass management" - you have the option of an A/D conversion on the multichannel analog input, at which point the 990's quadruple crossover settings and speaker delay settings are applied to the signal, thereby duplicating the ICBM's work (plus the delay settings, which the ICBM does not provide). This is an approach used by a few other pre/pros (including the Anthem AVM-20/AVM-30, I believe). The only case I can see where someone might use an ICBM with the 990 is if they had a profound desire to keep the 7.1 analog input in the analog domain all the way from player output to ear but still wanted bass management.

I am not sure that this belongs in this thread, but I know that we have talked about this so....I figured that some folks might be interested in this...

an article about sony open to a blue-ray Hd-DVD merge..

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/04/13/sony_blu-ray_hd-dvd_talks/

enjoy..

I think it should output to DVI or else how are you going to see your XBOX if you have your component out hooked up to the TV. I know the Outlaws understand that people have two video displays a TV and a projector. That would be a crushing blow for me.

That's certainly an interesting article, and matches this article as well. I've got a post buried a few pages back in this thread that also mentions the slim chance of a Blu-Ray / HD-DVD resolution, only from the HD-DVD side of the table (it also mentions some potential delays in the HD-DVD roll-out that I haven't seen much comment on elsewhere). Definitely an issue that will be worth following over the next year or so.

Outputting analog video to DVI involves some serious video processing - we're talking about converting the video from analog to digital, potentially converting it to at least 480p (I'm not sure that DVI supports 480i resolution, since all of the DVI-equipped DVD players I've seen are unable to output 480i), and then making sure the whole process remains HDCP compliant since you are now generating DVI signals rather than simply switching them. That's some mighty serious heavy lifting.

It would not be a problem for me as my cable box has DVI and my DVD player has DVI. I just wished if that is the case why not have two component outputs, that should be a no-brainer. Now if I want to watch XBOX on the big screen I have to disconnect one and connect another.

From the gallery shots it appears the 990's main remote is a re-labeled 1050 remote.

I had considered getting a MX-500 learning remote, but my 1050 remote does everything I need and I don't have to worry about the kids destroying it!

Oh, and our XBOX is hooked up via the standard RF converter supplied with it. The cable from Adelphia goes into the VCR, another goes from the VCR to the XBOX RF adapter then into the tv's coax/ant in jack. Put the tv on channel 4, turn on the XBOX, and voila'!

So, does anyone know what "2 channel subwoofer offset" is?

Maybe some type of phase adjustment?

I'm not sure about the 2-channel offset, but the new FAQ does touch some on the 990's auto setup. It does not include automatic EQ. The FAQ says the following about why:

As for Jeffrey's XBox frustration, I can understand the headaches involved in running two separate displays, although I'm not doing so myself (lucky to have just one HD display in the den, to be honest). A source like the XBox creates a problem there, since it only has one video output and an HDTV owner is going to want to set that output up as a component connection to get the full benefit of the console. It's a problem you could run into with many receivers or processors, and I'm not sure what I'd do in Jeffrey's place - maybe a switch box directly after the XBox (or possibly after the 990) to split it into two signals, assuming the switch box doesn't degrade video quality (which could be a challenge, since we're presumably dealing with 480p or higher resolution from the XBox).

Hello All,

2-channel sub offset allows you to reduce your subwoofer trim level by up to 8dB automatically when you switch to stereo mode. Bass management on the front L/R must be engaged for this feature. This feature allows you to have one sub trim setting for 2.1 channel music and another for surround sound.

Scott

faq was very informative... if i havent said it before, this site is very well laidout.

I have my xbox connected to the 950 thru component as well as my dvd player, that takes up the only two component in's and the out goes to the tv. I have my Directv HD box connected with a DVI/HDMI cable directly to the tv, that way I do not have to disconnect anything. Why would you need two component out's? two different displays maybe?

Exactly, DNicely1 - Jeffrey's got two displays, one of them being a front projector. If you only have one display, there's not really a need for two component outputs.

My bad, didn't see that post on the previous page. Make's sense.

Wow, I like that 2 channel offset. I'm using a Yamaha HTR-5790 right now for a processor, and while it will store 2 sets of channel levels for the multi-channel inputs and everything else, it won't store different levels for the other inputs. When I go from watching a movie to 2 channel stereo, I always have to back down on my sub. It's a pain to have to do every time. This will be great for us that split our system in half for movies and music.

Ugg...cheap*ss $10 Radio Shack remote. I was really hoping for an MX-500 as the main remote. I'd give up balanced output for a better remote.

Geesh not only do people expect thier Pre/Pro's to switch every known video type known to man they now want to process the video in their Pre/Pro too. For me I'll take a nice minimalist design with audio I/O only, unfortunately no one makes one. I hate paying for all those composite, S-vid and component I/O connectors when I know I'll never use them and they have the potential of adding unwanted noise to my central audio component.

Can you go from the 5.1 RCA outs on the back of a DVD universal player to the 7.1 inputs on the back of the 990? I usually only see 5.1 RCA inputs on the backs of pre/pro's...

T. Perinne, you can connect the 5.1 outputs of a universal player to the 7.1 input - you simply leave the surround back inputs empty on the 990. The extra inputs are there for two reasons: it lets people who prefer to use direct radiating surround back speakers as surrounds (instead of dipole side surrounds) for multichannel music, and it offers an avenue for future formats (such as Blu-Ray or HD-DVD) that will have new 7.1 surround sound formats that might be digitally output over HDMI. Since those formats are not currently finalized and manufacturers can't incorporate support for them, a 7.1 analog input will let those future players use 7.1 analog outputs with those formats.

So there should be some sort of setting on the 990 to tell it if you're inputting 5.1 or 7.1? Or will it automatically recognize?

Thanks!

There's no need for a setting or any sort of automatic detection. The 7.1 analog input is a pure pass-through (although there is apparently an option to convert to digital and apply bass management and time delay) - it will simply accept whatever signals are present at those eight inputs and pass them along to the eight associated pre-amp outputs. If some inputs are empty, then no signal will be present and that speaker will get nothing.

obie - in my view having the least expensive remote possible is a GOOD thing...i have a great prgramable remote already (better than would likely be included with any pre-pro), so i don't want to pay for another.

can't please everyone -- clearly you and i have different needs in this area. balanced outputs, on the other hand, are an absolute must for me.

I agree about the remote, The remote that comes with the unit should be able to control everything on the unit itself and serve as a good programming tool for the remote that will replace it

I've got an MX-700 and now I'd almost rather be able to download the remote codes than to even get a new remote with the device

Also, if Outlaw put a high dollar remote with their components it's likely people would buy something else because of the remote... I personally prefer hard button remotes to touchscreens so if they had put in a phillips pronto or something I'd be tempted to look at some other product that spent more on the preamp than the remote....

Of course, Outlaw is the type of company that would probably allow people to customize their order enough to not include a remote at all that'd be cool...

I have a Pronto and would have loved replacing it with an MX-500 remote like the one included with the Sherwood Newcastle. From my POV it narrows the price/performance ratio between the two processors. I have the Radio Shack version of the main 990 remote and don't care for it at all.

Does anyone know if the channel trim memory is global or can you set it per input? I can't seem to find that in the specs.

Whoever comes up with a completely modular pre/pro at a respectable price is going to do some good business.

Pop in your balanced output card, hdmi card, analog video in card, etc. Buy what you want, everybody's happy.

But how to do that inexpensively...

As far as needing two outputds because of the Xbox, why not use 1 component input on the tv set dedicated for the Xbox and a 2nd for the component out from the 990? If you have more than 1 component input on your tv, put it to use.

As I stated in a previous post, the Sherwood P-965 sounded a bit edgy to me when I auditioned it in my system. It sounds like others may have felt that the high frequency needed some fine tuning as well. This is good news as the Sherwood P-965 is a very nice piece, and I would have kept it if it wasn't for the musicality of the unit. The improved bass management with the 990 is enticing as well, and should add some further fine tuning flexibility to the lower end in various set ups. I would have liked to have seen the same remote as the Sherwood uses be included with the 990. I found the Sherwood's remote to be very enjoyable and easy to use. Given the trade offs though, I would prefer a better sounding and more flexible piece, then one with a fancy remote. I do have a few questions, one having to do with the upgrade to room EQ when an acceptable EQ system is available.One of my questions is, what would constitute acceptable as far as a room EQ system goes, and what is wrong with the current versions of available room EQ? I have to say that the units that I have tested with room EQ, I found there to be a very noticeable and much improved difference in the surround modes, both with music and with movies. No matter how hard I tried to duplicate or improve the sound over the auto room EQ, I couldn't. Of course, and unfortunately for me, the two units that I am speaking of are high end receivers that I just couldn't get into from a musical standpoint. On to another question. Why would ones position on the reservation list not be made available to them? The type of hype and anxiety that I have witnessed over the last 2 weeks created by the Outlaws withholding of information is not very pleasing. I can understand not providing shipping dates times etc... because of the variables that are involved, but other information that is being and has been with held is concerning.

What information being witheld is concerning to you? As far as I can tell, they're being pretty straightforward about things. Not being in the market for a new pre/pro yet (someday...) I'm able to watch all of this without being too emotionally involved. I do still get excited about it, though. It's fun stuff and it's fun to dream and plan...

However, I don't see them being particularly shady or underhanded like I feel that you're suggesting, jhunt. I don't see them creating anxiety and witholding crucial details. I do see them announcing products, providing pictures, specs, and rough time frames of availability and even answering questions. It seems to me that this release is actually being handled pretty smoothly so far. I think they've learned a lot from the release of the 950.

Well, you are entitled to your opinion and views, and I mine. Shady and underhanded though. How did you come up with this kind of inflammatory innuendo? Are you trying to read in between the lines of my post? If so you are not doing a vary good job at it and are way off track. If I thought for a minuet that the company was, or is shady and underhanded, I wouldn't have any interest in there products or in doing business with them on any level.You also wouldn't have been responding to one of my post. I think that you need to review all of the post over the last 12 days, as well re-read mine, and then maybe you will have some clarity and understanding as to what I am referring to. If not, I am sorry for that.

I have been following the thread every day and I wasn't trying to be inflammatory. I guess when I read things like "...hype and anxiety... created by the Outlaws withholding of information..." and "...but other information that is being and has been with held is concerning." I infer something different than what you were trying to imply. To me, that type of wording has an impact and meaning which your follow up post seems to be suggesting is quite different from what was intended by you. You'll notice I did say that that was my interpretation, not what you actually said. I suppose this is one of those times where the reader and the author weren't on the same plane. It's easy to make misunderstandings when we don't know one another and only have a handful of cold faceless text to go by.

Please try and clarify for me what your sticking points are.

I play my XBOX on the big screen, front projector. I guess I could just hook it up directly to the projector and use the DVI from the cable box, and the DVI from the DVD player into the DVI in and out to the projector.

What information do you feel has been withheld, jhunt1? Two weeks ago we didn't know the 990 existed, and today we have full specs, detailed photos, and a lengthy FAQ that even delves into why certain key design decisions were made. That's a whole lot of information rolled out in a short time frame. Also, if you look at the structure of the FAQ you might notice that Outlaw appears to have monitored this thread for the first week to ten days and used it to identify what people wanted to know. The FAQ touches on numerous topics that were brought up in this very thread, and Outlaw was very open about answering questions raised here. They even delved into why they made certain design decisions, which you won't see many manufacturers do.

Are you upset about the pre-order system? It's the same approach they've used in the past, where they basically ask folks not to bombard them will calls that are the equivalent of kids in the back seat asking "are we there yet?" If they fielded those calls, there'd be no time left for getting the units ready for shipment. More importantly, putting something in the confirmation e-mail saying "you are number 475 in line" would do two things that are undesirable: it would be somewhat misleading (since the pre-orders do not represent guaranteed sales, so the 474 in front of you might not all buy units), and it would spawn the question "when does unit 475 ship?" (which can't really be answered while the shipment is still en route). If you are worried, though, you might be reassured by some memories from the 950 pre-order. Each reservation had a number associated with it (which was supposed to be kept secret until after the order was placed, because it was part of how you logged in to place the real order). The first pre-order reservation was number 1000, I believe, and it counted up sequentially from there. We had a thread going where people could post and say they'd gotten their unit and what their reservation number was. I suspect they will have refined their processes over the last three years, but there will probably be a similar way for us to watch the pre-orders get filled once shipping begins.

I do not believe any information is being withheld. However, I would like the Outlaws to release the confidentiality of the Beta testers so they could post their comments on this forum. I do not care much about the defects they found and were fixed, I would like their comments on operability, owners manual and sound quality.

Paratrooper, that's an excellent suggestion. I would love to read the comments.

I wonder if any of the advance units found their way to any of the trade magazines like the Perfect Vision, etc.

Can anyone speculate, based on previous releases of other equipment, on the number of 990s that will be available in this first shipment?

I feel like a kid and Christmas is approaching and I'm hoping that Santa puts a 990 in my stocking.

I wrote Customer Service and asked if they've determined any combo pricing on the 990 and 755 or 990 and 5 M200s. They responded with a "We have not announced combo pricing with the 990 at this time". I hope the "at this time" implies they do plan on having some sort of discount on the amp too when purchased along with the 990.

Based on all of their past pricing structures, I would strongly suspect that there will be combo pricing options available for the 990. I don't remember if the 950 pre-order sign-up included the option of ordering an amp, but I think the actual order form for pre-orders did (it's been a few years, and I already had amps so I wasn't concerned with it).

It would be cool to hear from the beta testers, but their continued anonymity may reflect a change in beta test policy (either an across-the-board change or just a change for this case). The 950 testers provided some good feedback for the waiting crowd of pre-order customers during a waiting period of close to two or three months. During that time, they provided us all with a great service, but they also took a lot of grief on other forums. With production 990's so close at hand (everybody wish for clear weather and a tail wind for that freighter), Outlaw may have decided to leave these testers in the shadows and let feedback come purely from users of the finished product. Or else maybe the beta testers are holed away in the home theaters, glued to their beta samples and incapable of prying themselves away from the system long enough to spend time at a computer keyboard...

That's my question, too. I was going to get in the 990 line and see if they came out with an announcement for a revised 755 with balanced inputs, or just buy it as is and hopefully get free shipping. I figured they'd get a handle on that within the next month (enough time for me to decide). I've been waiting for the 990 announcement for about 6 months. Another month isn't going to matter.

Hello Gonk, Owl's_Warder, and All others, My recent statements,

" The type of hype and anxiety that I have witnessed over the last 2 weeks created by the Outlaws withholding of information is not very pleasing. I can understand not providing shipping dates times etc... because of the variables that are involved, but other information that is being and has been withheld is concerning".

concerns the releasing of the technical information and the units feature list. I questioned with both private emails to the powers that be, as well as post to this list as to why this information was not released with the products announcement on 4/03/05. I feel that this was a legitimate question. I also feel that there was some minor frustration and a lot of speculating going on during the time in between announcements as to the feature list and specifications of the unit. Both by myself and others. I believe that if this information had been released, the discussions in between the two announcements would have been very different. With less questioning and speculation and possibly more productive, with relevance to the actual features and specs of the unit. Albeit this is from my point of view only, and just my opinion and thoughts. Hype, may not have been a good word choice to help convey this feeling. Of course with the recent release of the above mentioned information this is now a moot point. I do still question why the position of ones reservation status would not be disclosed to them. I do feel that by not providing this information people will be speculating and wondering about where they stand in regards to receiving a unit.
To answer one of Gonks questions, " Are you upset about the pre-order system" .
No, Its too trivial of an issue to get upset over, questioning the reasoning behind the no disclosure policy, yes I do respectfully. I hope that this post clears up any misconceptions regarding my previous post and that my opinions and thoughts can be respected if not understood. I intend no ill will towards anyone with my postings.

Thank You

John, with regards to the upsampling and the edgyness you experienced with the P965, is there any reason to think that the 990 will be any different?

(I don't care about DVI, or how the 990 looks. I just want it to sound good)

Cary

I wonder where the 790 is in all of this? One would have thought this would have been the perfect time to bring out both the 990 and 790.

It was 11 months ago that Outlaw announced the 790 and indicated it would go to production at the end of 2004.

More lessons learned about announcements?

I wouldn't be surprised to see the 790 make its appearance at the show in NY.

Uhhh...technically that would be the 790's SECOND appearance at the NY show, but at least this time it will have a pre/pro to go with it.

-SM

some of us still have laser disk players that we use, so the question is whether or not the 990 has an ac3 input, or whether it would be necessary to try to find an external rf demodulator. didn't see anything mentioned about this in the specifications, so i'm prepared for bad news.

does anyone know for sure?

I would almost certainly assume that you'll need an external RF demodulator - I can't recall seeing a receiver or pre/pro offering an RF AC3 input in years.

I have a lazer disk player too. It's upstairs in the closet with my Phase Liner amp. :-)

Haven't posted here in a long while, but got drawn back like a lot of people after the introduction of the 990. A comment on a thread a couple of pages back about HDMI switching and upconversion of analog inputs to HDMI output...I was just reading in the latest Home Theater magazine and in their AV newswire section they mentioned that JVC is announcing receivers with HDMI inputs and outputs which will upconvert analog input to the HDMI output! I was kind of surprised and wondering if anyone heard about this. Also, I was not really thinking about uprgrading in the immediate future, but the 990 has got my id working overdrive.

My laser disk player is currently hooked up to a PC. Slowly copying my LD's over to DVD ... at least the ons that are unlikely to be done & offered commercially.

Any idea what shipping is going to run?

What was the shipping on the 950?

I think shipping for my 950 was $50, but that was three years ago (when gas was a lot cheaper) and the 990 looks to be a somewhat heavier and bulkier package to ship.

Starting the purchase process indicates that shipping the 950 (18lbs) to the Dallas area is $35. Shipping the 7100 (51lbs, also to the Dallas area) is $46.

The new contender, the 990, weighs in at 28lbs. So..............

I don't know where the 990 will be shipped from so I don't know where Huntington, WV is in relation to Dallas so the final cost will be dependent on it coming from the East coast or West coast.

Expect the 990 to ship from the west coast - that what I'm assuming will happen, since they are coming by sea from Korea.

” The new contender, the 990, weighs in at 28lbs. So..............”

Approximately the same weight as the Newcastle P-965 which ships in a double box of 27" x 27" x 17" and weights 39lbs.

Thanks for the feedback....

I remeber that I paid 120 or so for my 755 (But I think that I had it 2-day air or something like that...)

So.....West coast to east coast....39 pounds...

Cliff thanks for the extra info...

Using UPS, and if the box is coming from San Fran (I just picked a city...not sure where it is coming from...)

UPS Ground = 5 days 46.00
UPS 3 Day select = 3 days 102.00

and it goes up from there...

But as I recall last time outlaw shipped to my they used DHL..

I guess we will see...

They may also be able to get a better rate because they ship in volume. Like you say, though, we'll see...

You could wait for B stock and get free shipping!

Who is from Huntington, WV? I have relatives in Richwood, St. Albans and I have some land in Randolph county near Elkins (Becky's Creek).

MeanGene,

I am currently living in Huntington..
I am from Indianapolis, but living in Huntington for now.

I can't believe I forgot to pre-order. I just did it today. I am on the bottom of the list. I am a such a loser

Hopefully they won't use UPS. They charge the most of anyone. FedEx ground on 50# costs $28 from GA to CO. And that's using a drop-off counter. Shipping from a regular business should be cheaper.

Yeah,

I know UPS is a little on the high side... but I just happened to be looking at their website so....

I don't recall if outlaw had a flat rate shipping fee or not...anyone recall?

At one time, they were assigning fixed rates for ground and air to each product, but I'm not sure what the current policy is. I think they may be calculating shipping costs based on the specific destination now, but I could be wrong.

MeanGene,
Becky's Creek? That's not Elkins, that's Huttonsville/Valley Head. Hey, I grew up in Elkins and I have a house there, where I am three days a week listening to my 950/770 combo, and an apartment here in Morgantown, where I don't have any Outlaw gear and work for WVU. I haven't been up Becky's Creek in quite a number of years. Let me know if you are ever heading back this way for a visit and are suffering withdraw from your Outlaw gear. I'll let you stop by and give mine a listen to hold you over 'til you get back to yours.
Good luck getting an early 990.

Jeff

I've got several pieces of Outlaw hardware and don't recall anything showing up delivered by anyone other than DHL.

I've known them to use FedEx on occasion.

My cables came FEdex...

Jeffdavis..

I work for that other school (MU).

I grew up in Indianapolis, IN and went to school at Miami of Ohio.. then my masters at MU and now I work there, so....

Well I was thinking that would be the largest town that most would recognize. Next time I am back east I'll try and look you up.

Since there are no guarantees of being able to upload one of the new Room Eq. implementations, I'll have to take a pass on this pre-pro.

No guarantees of HDMI
No guarantees of IEEE-1394
No guarantees of EQ
Spend $1,100 on a stop-gap solution or spend $2,999 on a solution that has accounted for "future proofing".

What solution are you considering for that $2999?

Probably the AVM30 or D1.

However, even if the $1000 is stop-gap. Why not? Spen another $1000 in two years for the next one and be a grand up?

From what I've read, the Statement D1 is a great piece of gear. The AVM-30 is a subtle evolution of the AVM-20, which while several years old is still a consistently praised unit as well. I'd gladly put either in my equipment rack given the opportunity and could never find fault in anyone electing to buy one of them, but both are well outside my price range. Both offer support for 1394, although I'm not sure if it's been implemented in software yet. Neither offer EQ that I can tell, and neither offer any support for HDMI, so I don't see how they could be considered more "future proof" than the 990.

anthem is going to have an upgrade this summer (at an undetermined cost and about 3 weeks away from home for the equipment) that will upgrade the avm-30 with 1394 and hdmi (plus video transcoding, component video switching for zone 2, and perhaps the inclusion of a video scaler, depending on cost).

at this point, my choice is between the 990 and the avm-30. i am on the 990 waiting list, and will probably put it in my system and see if it meets my needs. if so, i'll keep it -- if not, i'll return it and get the avm-30. outlaw's return policy makes for "no-mistake" shopping!

gonk, it is indeed the Anthem AVM 30. in fact I was just about to pull the trigger when I got the email about the 990. Still not decided on which yet. With IEEE-1394 I could listen to all formats including SACD. With HDMI, no SACD support.

But Firewire may be a dinosaur if the HDMI format is finalized for everything including HD-DVD/Blue Ray and Anthem is wondering if it is worth the cost to implement it if it will indeed be obsolete. My DVD player (Denon 3910) has both HDMI and Firewire. And I have read issues of audio dropouts via HDMI. I think Anthem will introduce IEEE-1394 despite the fact that many current Anthem owners don't even know what it is.

The Anthem is termed "future proof" in that there are rear panels that are ready to handle these future upgrades for firewire and HDMI. If Outlaw could be upgraded in the future to HDMI, I would do it and not look back. But I don't see anywhere on the back of the unit that could accommodate a future upgrade.

There is so much happening now it makes my head spin trying to decide.

The AVM-30 certainly has some solid credentials. I will be curious to see what comes out of the planned upgrade for it - the changes davewb describes are major (there's no spot on the back panel that would readily accept HDMI jacks unless they forego the 1394 support and squeeze HDMI into that space, and the video upgrades described would suggest the replacement of at least some of the video boards), but they still don't appear to add auto-calibration (and by extension, that means no auto EQ). As I've said earlier, I would never tell someone to not get an AVM-30 or D1 if they had the cash for it, but I also don't see the 990 as a stop-gap - unless you buy it in order to wait a couple years (a pretty big gap) for the whirlwind to die down a bit and a few things to be decided on (high def disc format, HDMI audio standards) and fine-tuned. Obviously some folks may have systems that are better suited for the AVM-30, but I think many people could be equally well served by the 990 - especially with a $1,900 price difference and some form of digital video switching available immediately.

Points well taken. That's why I am having a hard time deciding which to do. You are right about the EQ; Anthem doesn't even use a calibration mike.

There may have to be a very discernable difference in audio to justify the Anthem (I can't really afford it either) but that has never stopped me before! But then consider paying $1,900 more then paying say $800 to send it back for the upgrade. You are almost at $4000.

So get the Outlaw now and spend the $2,700 later when all this pans out.

I almost convinced myself

Answer: Because Room EQ is here NOW, and I'd rather not wait 2 more years for it. A De__n rep told me they're coming out with a pre-pro based on the 4806 this coming fall..which would include the Audyssey MultEQ. I guess I'll have to wait until then to know more.

The Denon 4806 isn't even listed on their site yet, and it is reported to have a list price of $3,500. That's a significant difference in price from the $1100 we're talking about for a 990. Chop the amps out of the 4806 (something that we haven't seen done by Denon in a very long while), and you're likely to still be well north of $2000 when (or if) it arrives. That could still make for a pretty interesting package, and if room EQ is a feature that appeals to you it could be worthwhile for you to wait a bit and see what comes of it. For others (myself included), lack of room EQ isn't enough to rule the 990 out - especially in light of the other things it does offer and the potential (based on numerous review of the P-965) for it to turn in good sound.

I don't think anyone here will object to you typing out Denon's entire name. (Why did I have an odd flashback to reading Harry Potter books just now? "The manufacturer who must not be named..." )

Included within the photos of the 990 is a picture of two remotes with a circular device in between them.

What's the circular device?

That's the microphone for the auto calibration, I believe.

Gonk,

I'm guesstimating that the 4806 will have a "street price" of around $2600 or so. Extrapolating, I estimate that a pre-pro based on the 4806 will list in the neighborhood of $2500 or so, with a "street price" of $1750 or thereabouts. Would that price be a sweet spot for me IF it includes Audyssey MultEQ? Quite possibly, since Denon tends to feature pack their products. Then again, Audyssey might have their standalone box at that point..which would make things moot.
I agree that the 990 is an absolutely incredible bargain for what the Outlaws are asking. It's just that I'm salivating over automatic room eq.

Mission #1: is to configure the speakers and room acoustics to the optimum before relying on any form of electronic sound processing; automatic, manual or otherwise.

With balanced outputs you could use any number of external EQ solutions... even an Audyssey MultEQ box if it becomes available.

I prefer to do my own sound measurements and room/speaker EQ settings, so an Outlaw 990 with time alignment and channel balance, coupled with a good external EQ should work for me. While I know Audyssey has done a remarkable job developing their auto EQ package of algorithms, software and hardware... the compulsive knob turning gene in my DNA requires some tweaking that I have become accustomed to doing. Professional grade analog and digital sound processors can be had for a song these days, and with the right sound analysis tools, provide both the flexibility and confidence that some lesser auto-EQ solutions cannot offer.

Yes, I know, it's not all in one box, but none of us here are looking seriously at the Bose Wave Radio either...

Allan