HD-DVD!

Ladies and Gents,

Apparently, from what I've read, we can expect HD DVD players to become available near the end of next year. Assuming that there will be media available for each format, which (Blu-Ray or HD-DVD) do you hope wins the battle? Why?

In case you are wondering, I found this interesting tidbit.

I've been watching these two formats evolve for a couple years now. On the one hand, Blu-Ray offers more capacity, which is a plus - we can never have too much data capacity these days. On the other hand, the DVD Forum is backing HD-DVD. I hate format wars - as long as both formats are in play, the consumers are going to lose. Both formats are expected to launch in the US market at roughly the same time, both formats have support from several movie studios. If only one format launched, a significant number of HDTV owners would move to adopt it within the first year or so. With two formats competing with each other and the DVD format so well established (and offering so much better audio and video quality than was available when DVD launched in '97), both formats are going to have a hard time gaining as much market share. The only hope for consumers is a universal player, similar to what has come about for DVD-Audio and SACD, and I'm not optimistic that we'll see that until both formats have been on the market for a year or more.

the word is that hd-dvd is the front runner at the moment... it is sad thay greed wont allow a universal standard for dvd writeables and now it looks like hd dvds either...

I still remember the sweeeeet Sony Betamax video recorder that a friend of mine had in the early 80s. This was shortly before VHS caught on and stomped it almost out of existence. I, on the other hand, have the digital version of this, a hardly used $450 (at the time of purchase) Sony laserdisk player. At the time I purchased this, sometime in the mid-90s, there were 3 stores in Morgantown that rented laserdisks, with quite large selections of titles. Three months later there were no laserdisks to rent anywhere in town, including the A/V shop where I bought the laserdisk player. They did have the largest selection when I purchased the player. So if you feel the need to blame somebody, I guess that I'm the guy that (almost) killed the laserdisk. I guess that I'll just sit here and wait to see how this one shakes out before commiting.

Nah, that will never happen. I'll get the itch and have to purchase one or the other. So if you guys let me know which one you want to survive, I'll buy the other one.

Jeff

As highly as I anticipate the emergence of HD-DVD, I fear that the industry may encounter the resistance here that they've encountered with the hi-res audio formats: SACD and DVD-A. Apparently, the public at large thinks the sound quality of CD and the portability of MP3 is good enough.

Perhaps they also think that DVD is good enough (and, frankly, for most viewers with standard sized TV's, it IS.)

After visiting two friends this holiday who went for HDTV and have been unimpressed, I'm no longer convinced that HD-DVD is going to be a commercial slamdunk.

who in their right mind would be unimpressed with hdtv quality? the overall experience, price vs quality may be in question, but there is no denying anywhere that hdtv is not WAY better than sdtv or dvd quality. i guarantee that hd dvds will come out, now whether they stick or not remains to be scene, perhaps some kind of ultra hd is just around the corner...

the main factors for success will be two things, cost of the equipment and discs and availability of titles...

Well, my friends for two (even if I disagree with them) who probably are more representative of the majority of video users than most of us here.

And, by the way, you just can't express yourself at all without being obnoxious and insulting, can you curegeorg?

I think the biggest problem will be to get all the "regular" folk (yes, I'm calling us irregular ) to now plunk down some money for another "dvd" player to hook up to thier 21" tv, when they probably will not be able to see the difference.

I honestly think this will be a tough sell, regardless of who wins the format war - unless they can figure out how to make HD DVDs compatible with the current dvd players on the market.

Even without a format war, an HD-DVD format will be a more difficult sell than DVD was a few years ago. DVD offered so much more than VHS: improved picture quality, improved audio quality, true 5.1 surround, bonus features, and even the freedom of a disc format in lieu of tape (no more "be kind - rewind" to worry about). HD-DVD will offer basically just better picture quality when compared to DVD, and then only for those people with HDTV's (which is certainly a growing population, but still limited). Early adopters will in general be thrilled to get their hands on an optical disc HD format, but even many of them are going to be wary in light of the format war that at this point appears unavoidable. Unless there's a clear winner in the format war by the time prices come down from the initial format launch levels and the library of titles has grown to a respectable level, I'm worried that both formats may have a much harder time than either of them deserves when it comes to getting any significant market penetration. With the industry muscle behind them, I don't think we'll see a repeat of LaserDisc - at least one format probably survive and eventually achieve widespread adoption, but it may not happen for years.

As usual, Gonk has characterized this situation brilliantly.

You can take his scenario, apply it to CD vs. SACD/DVD-A, and get the real world situation. Consumers seem not to be adopting the new hi-res audio formats because they "only" offer better sound. Unfortunately, that better sound is really only apparent if you're a more-than-casual listener and you have a better-than-low-end system to reproduce it.

Similarly, HD-DVD will offer better picture but only for those with the attention span and the monitor to recognize it.

Actually, it occurs to me that we might see a repeat of LaserDisc. That is, a superior format that just ticks along as a connoisseur medium. We shall see....

I think the capitalism side of things may have a bigger push in this than you would think. Once the price gets low enough all machine offerings will be DVD-HD, (after the format wars of course}. I wass listening to NPR's Market Place a couple of weeks ago discussing this. The feeling on the format wars may not even be played out by the consumer in a way you would think! The Porn industry has a greater impact upon this than you would think. It is a multi-billion dollar industry, and if it goes one direction, as far as formats go, the rest will follow. Here is the link for the program. Jim http://marketplace.publicradio.org/shows/2004/12/21/PM200412215.html

I also don't believe HD-DVD will be a "slam-dunk". Gonk as always has hit the nail on the head. To add to his excellent thesis, why would consumers pay more for an HD-DVD unit when in all probability there will be programs, TV programs that you are NOT allowed to record!! ( courtesy HDCP ) That right there will stop most regular people in their tracks I would think. HD or not it is a TV program. Any so called fears of recording the latest episode of a reality show and having it circulating on the internet is a paranoid delusion. Does it occur now? NO! Not to mention that compression technology is not even there yet to allow such "piracy" to be possible.
I await with interest the decision of the Supreme Court of the United States on the HDCP matter. Should they rule against Hollywood they will again have saved the industry from itself. If they rule for Hollywood, the industry will have shot itself in the foot with a medium sized howitzer.

Sorry, I did not mean this to be a political rant. Apologies to all.

Hullguy is very astute to remember the clout of the porn industry. In the last video format war, beta vs VHS, porn was only available on VHS. Since a very high percentage of video tapes sold in the initial years of VCRs were porn, so VHS won.

One difference that may be important today is that there are a number of feasible alternatives for them. Before, was there anything besides VHS that many people would have? Key word is "many" or most.

I believe that VHS became the defacto standard because the paranoid entertainment industry (I use the term entertainment industry generically. Recording Industry, Movie Studios, or whatever is appropriate can be substituted) took the (Sony) Betamax to court. No other manufacturer (except Sanyo I think) would adopt the Beta format with potential lawsuit damages looming, so they started churning out VHS decks. What really drove the whole VCR/videotape market though was the realization by the (short-sighted paranoid) entertainment industry that they could make zillions re-releasing their movies on videotape. (The release of a movie to DVD/VHS today may be their largest source of revenue). Porn became a big chunk, but still only a fraction in comparison. This whole scenario of paranoia to riches had been played out years earlier when the audio cassette came out. The entertainment industry did everything in their power to stop the manufacture of cassette recorders only to realize an exponential increase in record sales. And here we are watching it play out once again, only this time the industry seems to be getting what it wants and everyone (including them) will suffer. But I digress....
Gonk is absolutely right. Competing formats will do nothing but doom them both. People refrain from purchasing equipment to play one format or the other, not wanting to make the wrong choice, waiting to see which one wins or becomes predominant in the marketplace. Without the equipment, consumers won't purchase the media, media sales lag, equipment sales lag, and everything just dies a slow, quiet death (SACD/DVD-A). I hope it doesn't happen with HD DVD, but with the different formats and the copyright infringement hysteria throwing up roadblocks, it doesn't look good.
Geeez...talk about a rant!!! Sorry

The Entertainment industry didn't realize the amount of money they coiuld make off of VHS until AFTER they lost the court case allowing movies and programing to be taped!

I agree with Boblinds. SACD and DVD-A are superior to CD in many ways. (The surround aspect is only one superiority. Increased sampling rates yield sound that finally exceeds my old direct-to-disc lps.) Unfortunately, the general buying public doesn't value high quality. They're impressed with the high quantity of "thousands of songs" on their ipods and mp3 players. People who buy Outlaw products are unfortunately a very small minority of people that watch television and/or listen to serious music. I'm frankly, not hopeful on the eventual success of any "boutique" medium whether sacd, dvd-a, or hd-dvd. The hardware will be there but the software won't due to lack of demand. Convenience of format trumps quality of reproduction.
That being said, right now there is a plethora of wonderful software. Anyone else hear the new Sonoma sacd called, "Music for Brass, Organ and Timpani"? Sublime!

Jay

It looks like somebody called this one just right. I can't find the thread now, but someone suggested that if a merge happened, they'd probably use the Sony hardware and the Toshiba software that way both parties get a "win" as it were. Check this out from The Digital Bits about the format unity talks.

The deal could be finalized as early as this week and announced shortly thereafter, ahead of meetings with manufacturers scheduled for May 16th (where industry approval for the format would presumably be solicited). The technology compromise would reportedly see the new format utilizing Sony's planned disc structure (originally designed for Blu-ray Disc) with Toshiba's software for data transfer and copyright protection (developed for HD-DVD).

Bill was paraphrasing from some online articles. Check it out! Exciting stuff!

and a week later, the possibility of a format war raises it's ugly head once again.

Yeah, looks more and more unavoidable. With the PS3 slated to be a $300 basic Blu-Ray player (with the option of getting a $450 version that will record to BD-R), it will be pretty interesting to see things play out next year.

Yep, I couldn't agree more. I was quite excited seeing there were unity discussions, and now this.

Hopefully, with PS3 using Blu-Ray and Blu-Ray having the PC community backing and a larger capacity, that will be enough of an advantage to quickly tip the scales in one direction. Not that I've seen it or have an opinion on performance, but I just want one side to be dominant early on. I think that the large gaming community will help with that a great deal. Gamers are much more apt to pick up the newest version of a console than early adopters are willing to get a new technology with two to choose from.

One thing Blu-Ray has to do is build a solid software library - no amount of hardware penetration will yield a win in the war if HD-DVD has a larger library of movies. That's one front that still has no clear winner.

I for one am hoping that blu-ray will come out on top . The reason being is that HD DVD does not appear to be doing anything to expand their format . They seem to be researching better compression technologies . This would seem to be taking a step backward too me . Blu-ray on the other hand has recently expanded the capacity of their disc too 100 gig's . Granted this is a prototype disc still under development but the fact they put it out there says something about where they are wanting to head in the future .

Offical blu-ray site great heads up source .

http://www.blu-ray.com/

Offical HD DVD site .

WWW.dvdsite.org/

HD-DVD has been adding layers to gain capacity - they announced a 45GB triple-layer disc during the "peace talks" a few weeks ago - but I agree that Blu-Ray seems like a fundamentally better platform. If I had to pick a format that I wanted to see win, I'd probably go with Blu-Ray. Unfortunately, the better tech doesn't necessarily win a format war...

I can't disagree with you there gonk . Speaking of huge disc capacity . There is a company which claims to have a disc capable of holding 1 tera bit with a 1 gig transfer rate . Compared to blu-ray transfer rates of 36 mbps and 50 gig capacity blu-ray looks like it is standing still .

I will try to find the link to the name of the company for anyone interested .

HVD, O.k. it is apparently under development . I am not sure now if it is a disc or something new . But, it is no doubt still very interesting .

http://news.com.com/group+aims+to+drastically+up+disc+storage/2100-1041_3-5562599.html

Well, then...what to buy? I'm new to buying The Good Stuff, but in the past few months have been exposed to Outlaw (950/770), and some others. The price is great, the quality is great, the service is great, and I'm about as pleased as I can be with what I hear in my house right about now!

So - next is the DVD player, replacing my 6-year-old Panasonic Wal-Mart Special.

All of these formats you're discussing - I think ya lost me somewhere back about when Betamax got whipped. Considering two directions - the Future of DVDs, and the NOW of dvds, what machines would get me going in the right direction? What "format' or whatever should I absolutely not compromise on right now? Is there a solid performer I can't go wrong with at a decent price?

These other items (amp, etc.) - it was a little easier to weed them out into Mass Market and Genuine Good Buys - the DVD is just too "cosumerized" to make my online research very productive.

I would have posted this separate or elsewhere, but it seemed to fall in-line with your discussion, so here we are!

What price range are you looking at ?

As for Which player is right for you now I would suggest a mid priced universal player . One that does SACD, DVD Audio, DTS, Dolby Digital etc. etc. .
Does you television have a DVI or HDMI input on it . If you are not sure then about how old is it . If it does you may want to consider a player that up converts 480i to an HD standard .

The price on such players start at about $299 and go up from there . Samung is the cheapest I can think of ( HD 841 ) that does all the above . Although I am not certain it will play DVD Audio or not . At any rate it goes for about $149 and will do all the other important formats mentioned . There are higher end players such as the Denon 3910 at $1499, 2910 at $699 and Pioneer 59AVi at $1599. In the middle you will find players like the Samsung HD 941 with the Farajuda processor for $249 . Sony makes a solid player the DVPNS985 which does all the above except DVD Audio for about $249 . So I say again how much do you want to spend ?

As for HD DVD buy a Play Station 3 when they come out . It will support blu-ray discs and in the event that blu-ray does not become the standard for HD DVD's then at least you can still play video games on it .

Thanks - a good start, I'll check them out.

Price isn't so much an issue - I'd like to keep it under $500, but really, I'm looking for value in Outlaw fashion. All of the players you mentioned are probably great, but I'm still paranoid about the whole "paying for the name" scam.

I'm still shopping for TVs too, but no hurry there, so for the sake of this discussion, let's just assume I get one capable of anything ; )

The "good" dvd player can take advantage of my "good" AUDIO system right now, without the video aspect to worry about yet.

If you get a TV with a DVI or HDMI input, then you can look closely as the upconverting players, as E'pin Sen Ob suggests. My recommendation there would be the OPPO Digital OPDV971H - it's a newcomer, but it scored a 94 on the Secrets DVD shootout (the second highest score ever, second only to Denon's 5910) and it sells for $200. It supports DVD-Audio but not SACD. If you are interested in both of those formats, you might consider one of Pioneer's inexpensive universal players or a Denon. At the moment (and for a long while to come, considering the impending format war), I'm using a Yamaha DVD-S1500 universal player for audio formats (DVD-Audio, SACD, and a transport for CD's) and an OPPO for DVD Video. That's a total of $600 in hardware which I hope will tide me over until there is some hint of which way the format war is going to go. I guess if a decent selection of movie titles shows up on Blu-Ray, I may pick up a PS3 at some point...

Yes, I had a look at the OPPO Digital OPDV971H and think I will pick one up as well. It doesn't make sense to me to dump large coin into a player that you know is on the edge of standards, only to dump it shortly anyway.

It a lot different buying an amp, it still puts out watts no matter what the standards are..

I am with Gonk on this one..

I think that when it comes to the consumer simpler is better and unfortunately (or fortunately depending on who you ask I guess), HD DVD is as simple as it gets. They know HD. They know DVD. Viola! You have a winner.

Perhaps, but not necessarily. After all, DVD was "familiar" only because it looked a lot like a CD. Both offer the same interface as DVD. Blu-Ray will be supported by the PS3, which barring a major deviation from past consoles will end up in a lot of homes. If the library of Blu-Ray titles is good enough, there's a good chance it'll win.

Either way I am going to wait a looong time before I run out and buy an HD player of any kind. At least I will try and wait

Recently, there's been an interesting discussion of this very topic in The Perfect Vision and The Absolute Sound, two related journals of video and audio topics. Was anyone else unaware that dvd 5.1 sound isn't done at a high sampling rate? I was surprised to learn that, especially since dvd-a's do offer excellent sound. I suppose the primacy of the video content trumps the audio content quality! I for one still believe that a "super-universal" player, i.e. one that will play hd-dvd, blu-ray, sacd, dvd-a, dvd, cd, etc. will be created. (Hmm, will it also play my old direct-to-discs?)

Jay

Before they get a chance to release that Universal Player, there will be a HD-DVD2, Red-Ray, SACDX and DVD-Z format just around the corner..

If Lucas has anything to say about it, you'll eventually see HD-3D-DVD logos on players as well.

Does your DVD player come with 3D glasses?

Well, I'm hoping for Blue-Ray. More capacity = less compression = less compression artifacts.
If the PS3 can play Blue Ray movies, that will give the format a leg up.
I will probably buy one ~6mo after release. Like i did with DVD.
Zed

Playstation is a SONY child . It most certainly will play blu-ray .