Am I nuts? Not sure about 950/750 combo.

I listened to my new 950 last night paired to my Outlaw 750 amp. My wife and I both feel that our Denon 5803 sounds better? We were going to move the 5803 into another room or possibly sell it. With the Outlaw combo it sounded like the soundsatge collapsed. Any input from anyone is appreciated.

When I got my "blue dot" 950 (the version you have), I noticed that it needed longer to get settled in to the system (break in, if you will) than the previous versions (the original spring 2002 and the "red dot") had. You might give it a few days or so (maybe leave it running while you are gone during the day) and see if it opens up any.

Even more important than that is calibration. A few minutes with a $30 Radio Shack sound meter and some test tones (either the 950's internal test tones or the tones from a setup disc like AVIA) can make a huge difference in soundstage.

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

Gonk,

I calibrated with the Sound Meter. I also had to move the volume to -15db and the following channel levels to even get it to calibrate to 75db with the internal test tones. Speakers set to small. All crossovers set to 80hz.

Front L +10
Center +10
Front R +10
Surr R + 9
Surr L + 8
Sub - 5

Your settings are way off in the calibration, and could very well be causing some of the problem. You should calibrate the system with the main volume control at "00". Doing this would bring the trims that are presently at +10 to -5. Don't worry excessively about calibrating the sub with a sound level meter. You can do it by ear to your own taste, and the Home Theater Gods won't strike you down! The sub may have it's own level control which you should use to arrive at a final volume.

Setting the sub volume is in reality a very complicated thing which really should be done with a spectrum analyzer, not a simple sound level meter. Most consumers do not have the knowledge about standing waves and other variables at low frequencies to make a calibration, especially with a meter valid. Especially considering that the LFE track in movies is synthesized anyway, setting it to taste by ear is perfectly valid. When listening to music, setting to taste by ear is also valid in the absense of advanced sound measurement equipment such as a spectrum analyzer.

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited June 19, 2003).]

Kevin,

Same here. Husband and I (excitedly) hooked up long awaited 950/770. …and fizzle.

Husband trying to be polite. Ummmm, what do you think?
Me: (I knew what he was doing). Weeeellll, I think the old reciever sounded better. Maybe somethings not right?

Two weeks or so of tweaking later……incredible system. Keep at it. For some they can plug it in and notice a leap forward …for others …like me and my husband, we had a lot of issues to deal with, Too many new components to mesh at once. New speakers,,,room acoustics to account for….getting Calibration RIGHT.
(possible Gonks burn-in) don’t know. But I advise play with it. And its So exciting when the SS opens up and its THERE.

Beautiful system after that.

Wouldn't the soundstage have to do more with the amplifier breaking in? If that is the case. I have had the 750 for over 1 1/2 years.

No not just your amp. The Preamp /processor also will need time to burn in. I suggest that you turn the system on and say to an FM music station, it need not be loud and let the units play for a day, switching through the different processor settings etc. Then play a cd or two for a number of hours straight in surround mode and stereo, finally doing the same for DVD's etc. NONE of this need the volume cranked, infact for the processor it could have little or no volume. It is just about warming up and settling the various circuits, i.c.'s etc.

Then take time with a familiar movie to get a good idea of how your surround sounds and adjust the levels etc. If you have a spl meter, you can use that to fine tune thngs aswell.

HTH.

Soundstage is affected by the the totality of several factors.

I'd check into SH's suggestion that he feels your calabration might be off (viewing the dB's you stated),... he will never toot his own horn (I will) he's Bone-a-fied!!! ("Brother where art thou") A professional ...worked on the ST of True Lies, - the DVD special re-master of Superman in 2000/01? etc. If he feels the #'s you posted are off on your calabration, its worth a double ck. I never note where mine actually sit, unless I've calabrated then moved one off for a recording (CC bump).

Double check your calb, and be aware when using the 950 remote. (Your numbers seem too in line for this situation)...but if you set master V @ 0. Then use the buttons labeled "volume" up/down on the remote you are moving your master volume (again...and off 0)...be sure you are using the <> (around the center toggle of the remote) during calabration for trimming. (prob only a mistake (I) would make!)

I'm not discounting burn-in....I've seen some affects I thought I have noted due possibly to this. - but from your description of your lack of satisfaction, I feel its more likely a combo of areas to adjust...possibly crossovers, calb, burnin etc combined?

[This message has been edited by Smart Little Lena (edited June 19, 2003).]

Ummm.......Oh, now I get it.....Bone, as in DOG bone!! Yeah....funny......very funny.....ha, ha......

Me and My weird spelling (Spell ck can't handle movie quotes)
Nothing to do with dogs (although their great and we have a particulary nice one in the forum...Hi Iggy ARF ARF).

Okay (mr hollywood) You KNOW...the scene in BWAT , - she won't remarry her husband because he's not bone a fied, as is her fiance.

Legal and gainfully employed, Makeing bo-qu's of money during a depression, respectable, AND professionally trained......the REAL thing...Bone i fied!

Color me DENSE- I still don't get it..... I'm so dense, I have to edit a single sentence post! See.......


[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited June 19, 2003).]

YOUR NOT DENSE, I spell pho net ik ly.
Okay me and MY SPELLING. I looked it up.

Brother where Art Thou
Ulysses Everett McGill (her supposedly hit by a train husband) I'll tell you what I am -- I'm the damn paterfamilias! You can't marry him!
Penny Wharvey McGill: (referring to her finance) Veron here's got a job. Vernon's got prospects. He's bona fide. What are you?


In other words SH, your bonafide! Trained professional who’s advice holds weight~!

Oh..........

SH,

In other words, SLL was giving you a sincere compliment.

pat----

I don't own a 950 so forgive me if this question is off a little. Looking at the calibrated numbers that Kevin_R posted, shouldn't he readjust his system so that the trims on the mains are at 0? Then he could adjust all the other levels accordingly. The additive volumes he posted from his other speakers are just making up for the adjustment on his mains. His surround trims may have to go to -1 and -2 (L and R respectively) to also compensate for this adjustment. Just a thought.

One other thing Kevin_R, make sure you recheck all your connections. Unplugging one unit and replugging another can be tedious and sometimes you can miss one connection or another. Also make sure that your speaker connections are in phase. Not that I've ever done this before...

[This message has been edited by Jason J (edited June 20, 2003).]

In other words, SLL was giving you a sincere compliment
Pat, - EXACTLY.

I forget that people are not in my convoluted brain to see [where] I ‘m going. (and you prob. would not want to be )

What I was trying to ‘Heads Up’ to Kevin, was that we have several industry professionals in the forum. People unlike me! I am a purchaser of audio who merely makes stabbing attempts to understand it.
But many Outlaws, - whose business and livelihood IS audio, in one area or another.
IE: SH whose name happens to be pasted in the credits as “Senior Music Editor” on ‘Superman’ the digitally re-mastered DVD release.

..went to link to “My Pic” where there’s a rare posting of SH playing with a Howitzer, when he [I]should be[/] just working on “True Lies” but the impeg seems to be removed


[This message has been edited by Smart Little Lena (edited June 20, 2003).]

Senior Music Editor? If that's the case, they screwed up my credit - I'm going to call my agent! I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore!!!....

BTW, I also did the same type of job on "Grease" and the "version you've never seen" DVD of "The Exorcist".

I strongly believe that break-in is a myth. I think the thing that really breaks in is your brain.

Personally I wouldn't expect the 950 to outperform your Denon, I'd expect it to be about on par. If it doesn't knock your socks off, return it, Outlaw won't mind.

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Philip Hamm

I side with Philip on this one. The Denon is no slouch. Its probably just a matter of preference, although I would definitely correct your calibration before I made my final decision. Those numbers are way too high, even if it doesn't make a difference in performance.

[This message has been edited by Jed M (edited June 20, 2003).]

Thanks to everyone for the info. I recalibrated as suggested. No change of opinion on my part. The Denon still sounds better to me. I just went to lunch and dropped off the 950 at the shipping company to be returned. So I guess some lucky person will be getting a nice little b-stock unit. I am on a quest to get into seperates. I will be looking at Rotel next. I am thinking about selling my 750 amp that I have sitting around. Thanks again!

Kevin:

Considering that your starting point is a receiver that retails for well over $4K, I would think you're in the wrong ballpark pricewise in exploring separates, even with the Rotel.

Just a thought ....

I completely agree. What exactly are you looking for that the Denon doesn't already gove you? That would be the place to start in your quest. Is money just burning a hole in your pocket that fast?

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Philip Hamm

Not sure why you are looking for seperates. The bottom line is always the most realistic and satisfying sound reproduction possible for "your" taste, (and pocketbook). What is the Denon lacking that has you searching for seperates? I am sorry you did not find it at Outlaw, sound stage is not an issue with my 950, but room acoustics are different. I am glad you gave Outlaw a try, I have a lot of respect for you because of this vs those you do not like the product without ever trying it in their own environment. Keep us posted on your quest.

Kevin R -
Thank You, you just layed to rest an ongoing debate/question of mine.