The "950", the "better" of the clone wars?

Fellow Oulaws……

I am in the first week of a second blue dot b-stock 950. The first blue dot 950, the S-video VCR input, it appeared the “gain” structure was extremely low, resulting in a very dark and off color picture. Outlaw service sent me another 950, apparently before I even had hung up the phone (thumbs up here!)

But after hooking up the second unit, it also appears to have video problem. This time the picture appears to be saturated, too much gain, facial tones almost completely washed out. (On all S-video inputs and s-video monitor ouput. Mostly likely the problem is occurring in monitor output section, since the same washed out result is present no matter which S-video input is used)

After reducing the picture and brightness levels on my monitor to almost nothing, and playing with the flesh tones, I end up with a picture that is on par or slightly worst than what looks like an old VHS tape play back using any source (DVD, Sat, Cable, DVR, or VHS recorder).

Now, while expecting some signal lost going through a switcher (in the 950) and additional lost because of extra cable length (going to AND from the 950), so far the video performance from the two 950s I have received is lacking (worst than my old receiver).

I would appreciate any input from others than might have had the same problems. Little is known about the other two 950 clones……….. are they getting the superior/better performing units, maybe with tighter specs and quality control? While Outlaw widens their specs and is more “forgiving”?

While all three companies selling the “950” are quite “closed lipped” about their differences, one has to assume there has to be some differences. Any new input on these differences?

Maybe I am just asking too much from the Outlaw 950?

The silver lining so far in this situation is the Outlaw commitment to making me happy. I just hope I am not too much a pain in the butt! ;-)


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"In Search Of The Lost Cord"

Odd...I have had two units (post - red dot, then blue dot) and have not seen any video switching problems (up-conversioning is not the best but decent). Could this be symptomatic of being B-Stock? These units may have had other quality issues...before you spend oodles more for one of the clones, I would suggest a slight cost increase for an A-Stock 950 or just keep playing 950 roulette on the B-Stocks until you get one you are happy with.

Oaf may be right, you may want to try an "A" stock 950. I have not had a single problem with the switching of any input/output on my 950. However, I can understand your frustration. Outlaw was so quick to send you another unit that you were impressed. It would have been better if the video inputs/outputs could have been checked before sending you another unit. Sure this would have caused a delay but you would have been another satisfied customer instead of one that is contemplating the purchase of a "clone." Obviously Outlaw will replace this defective 950 again, but the time and cost spent sending you replacement units far outweighs the time and cost of a QC check before sending out the unit in the first place. Stay with us, don't let the sheriff catch you, an outlaw behind bars is a sad sight. Outlaw will make it right.

Are you recording with the VHS?

I have my video straight from VHS to display.
Only sending the audio through the 950.

Basicly its hard to bear VHS resolution (for me) especially with the addition of a 60" display. VHS on my 27" wasnt that bad (depending on the tape) pushed to 60...egads!

I personally do not own a PVR device. But with most consumers using TIVO etc. Do you even need to route the VHS video through the 950?
Just a thought.



[This message has been edited by Smart Little Lena (edited May 15, 2003).]

First of all let's say that it may not be outlaws fault but could be the fault of your tv being too bright(ala toshiba etc.),or even your choice of cables(assuming their not outlaws).However the fact that you had two different results with two different machines(assuming everything else was the same)does suggest the 950.Now I hate to say anything negative about the outlaws,because I think they are a great bunch of guys and gals,but I think there might be- or may have been some problems with the 950 design.This opinion is based on your experience and a review I read which claimed the 950 was a little noisy and undetailed-now i think the review was comparing the 950 to a pre/pro considerably more expensive,so perhaps this point is irrelevant.I think IF there is or was a problem it may have to do with the grounding of the unit or it's circuit board,or could be a quality control issue.It would be interesting as a test to plug a "problem unit" into a panamax surge protection unit that uses "double L filtration"which I beleive grounds everything better.Now since I don't own and have never heard the 950 my comments may be completely untrue,I just thought i should throw in my 2 cents.In the spirit of throwing in my 2 cents I would also like to say i am a little dissapointed in the outlaws.I feel most of their products,with the exception of their cables(which I will purchase shortly)and perhaps their amplifiers,are a little behind the curve.Their was a brief period where the outlaw receiver was way ahead of the curve,but now I feel it and other products may be a little behind the "technological" curve.This does not mean their products are not good values,as they probably are,especially if sound quality is more important to you than the latest "whizz bang" features-it's just that I think they can do,and should be doing just a little bit better.By the way let me just state that I have never used or heard any outlaw product so I am not directly critisizing any of their products.

Thanks to those who have already responded…….. I am just trying to get a feel of other users……….. I did come across a old Outlaw newsletter stating some video problems, but in reference to conversion mostly.

To give a bit more detail of other equipment surrounding the 950:

Monster Cable AVS 2000 voltage stabilizer
Monster Cable HTPS 7000
Monster Cable M-Series Audio, Speaker and Video Cabling
Panasonic 32” Monitor
Hughes Sat Receiver
ReplayTV Hacked DVR
JVC Super VHS
Audix Nile 20 Left Right
Audix Nile 10 Surround
Audix Nile 5 Surround Back
Bohlender-Graebener Radia X1 Center Channel
Onkyo DV-SP800

And……..oh yeah……… Outlaw Model 770

So far sonically I have no complaints……… in fact even in the much demonized stereo play back (with out being in bypass) it sounds wonderful (yes, in bypass the field opens up even more and with more detail)…….

My back ground is in pro audio (not as much as some who post on this boarad)……. And I was expecting to be “just” satisfied with the audio portion of the 950……… but to my surprise I am quite pleased. I believe one would have to spend quite a bit more to achieve any real gain in audio section of this piece.

I am a bit surprised in the obvious differences in the video quality between the two units. And I will ask for a third unit after I get back from a convention next week…….. but over all I want to express my pleasure (even though having to hook, unhook and rehook…….and the future unhooking and rehooking…….……) with the Outlaws so far.

This is a labor of love…….. I think most of us are searching and grasping for the final inch out of a mile……. We are looking for that one texture on one note on one solo…… or to but it another way………. “……in search of the lost cord”……. ;-)

Thanks for everyone’s input and ideas……..


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"In Search Of The Lost Cord"

NBStwoABQ -- As someone who runs all of his video signals as S-Video (digital cable, DVD, and S-VHS) and switches them with the 950, I am surprised to hear about problems like those you are experiencing. Particularly since I've had a total of four different 950's in my system in the last year and never had any problems with the S-Video switching. The differing natures of the two problems would seem to make a cable problem unlikely (although a few tests with directly connecting different components with those cables -- particularly the "monitor out" cable -- would offer some additional confirmation). I doubt it's due to interference of any sort (and power cords lying against your "monitor out" cable?). Quite perplexing. I expect that Outlaw will get you squared away soon, though.

master of disaster -- The 950 did have video problems with the first handful of shipping units (turbo had one, as I recall, although I haven't seen him around here since it was resolved). All of those units, probably under a dozen total, were replaced last April. Subsequent units were originally slated to have the composite/s-video conversion disabled, but ended up keeping it with the qualification that Outlaw recommends keeping video signals in the same format (which it looks like NBStwoABQ is doing). Beyond that, I am not aware of any video switching problems inherent to the 950's design (individual defects such as those NBStwoABQ has encounted notwithstanding).

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

For testing purposes have you tried the direct method of hooking the VCR's S-Video out directly into your display S-Video input? That would eliminate the 950 from the equation and be proof positive that your VCR is still outputting the quality you previously saw.

Just an update......the Outlaws customer service comes through again....... since I will be out of town I requested that a replacement 950 to be delivered next Friday.....the day I return....... and they said "No problem".......

Gonk - thanks for the ideas......never hurts to have two heads.......but I tried almost every combination possible and checked everything twice. The last thing I really want to do is repatch everything again ;-)

Well, until next weekend ;-)

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"In Search Of The Lost Cord"

Interestingly, you are using an onkyo dvd player,which is essentially a souped up toshiba.I do beleive toshiba's automatically set the white level to 7.5 ire which is too high for america(I beleive it is correct for japanese equipment)-You should be able to easily change it to 0 ire in the menu somewhere.This may solve some of the problems.Also I would mention that I recently used to own a panasonic tv and did have trouble adjusting the brightness,so that to get it bright enough it had to be a little washed out-I think this was because of the dark glass they used + they're probably somewhat subdued,not too bright picture tubes.I think philips makes the best tv's,although quality control wise I have heard some complaints online(of course every large manufacturer has complaints).By the way considering all the POSITIVE reviews on the 950 I am probably off base that there is anything wrong with the unit.By the way with all that equipment I hope you have everything plugged into the same surge/power device,because in my (admitedly limited) experience if you plug different equipment that is connected into different surge/grounding devices it can create a ground loop which conceivably could cause some video problems.

Not quite a clone, but yet another processor based on the original Eastech design. Interesting reading.

Best,
Sanjay

What a find Sanjay! Personally the thread cracks me up. Particularly the quote, “There are digital design/engineering firms that exist in this country, specifically catering to high end manufacturers. These companies design products ranging from D/A converters to surround processors, providing variants to meet the needs of specific clients. If you are surprised by this, all I can say is, welcome to the real world.”

(One of the first things I noticed when I first started researching audio/video). I’m sure FAP-TI will spend a lot of PR setting itself apart, they will have to for a 2K difference in pricing from the 950 on up. I’m not sure what they street for but 3K SR was what I saw in the past. (and if there are not some differences shame on them, Outlaw should sell for that much…….!)

I think I will be following some of the ‘wars’ again almost gleefully when I have time in a month or so. Reminds me of the good ole bad ole days, I appreciate J Fosgates DPLII. And have long been intrigued this platform (950’s) was selected to build the FAP-TI from.

It takes a whole village of pre-pro’s to raise one platform.

Moments like this, - watching the arguments gear up again for a newcomer and against the same brands Outlaws been linked with comparatively (the whole current crop). I’m so glad I’m an Outlaw. I’d hate to have the (lots of brands that will be nameless- owners) coming into my new FAP-TI chat to slap me silly for paying whatever I paid for my pre-pro (compared to their superior sound).

I getting where some days I look forward to anything launching (to watch the sparks fly). And others where they wear me out so I just count my 950 savings.

Miss Lena,

What I'm finding interestng is that the more processors that come out based on this one Eastech design, the more respect it gets. It's amazing (and unfortunate) how tripling the price of a pre-pro makes many audiophiles finally take it seriously. I wonder what other pre-pros are due out based on this design.

I always thought that the Atlantic Technology and Sherbourn versions were basically direct clones of the 950; the AT version especially, considering Peter Tribeman's associations with Outlaw and AT. However, after reading about the modifications done for the FAP-T1, I think I could have been wrong about the Sherbourn unit. Looks like Eastech really does allow its clients to customize this design to suit their particular spec. Ron Fone of Sherbourn has always maintained that their version includes improvements to the stock design; I'm more inclined to believe him now rather than dismiss his remarks as marketing hype.

BTW, I was perusing the FAP-T1's instruction manual , and the specifications page looks like a physical cut-n-paste from the same page in the 950's manual. Funny.

Best,
Sanjay

P.S. Off topic, but how did your Mother's Day go? Finally get a break from the daily grind to relax and enjoy your system?

sd

Eastech should be thrilled with the "950" base design -- it's turning up all over the place. And for all of the modifications that Fosgate implemented to produce their $3000 pre/pro, the basic signal path and the processing appears almost completely unchanged (based on the manual). Remember all of the processor limitations that were such a sticking point on the 950 last winter? Single speaker distance setting for all surrounds? Still there. Oh, and the manual that I believe Outlaw was principally responsible for writing (it is very similar in style to the other Outlaw manuals) is seeing a lot of recycling, too -- the remote macro example in the FAP-T1 manual even includes the error from the 950's manual. Oop...

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

Gonk,

Regarding the manual: from the thread linked above:

Off topic, but how did your Mother's Day go? Finally get a break from the daily grind to relax and enjoy your system?. Nada, I’m still in the (somewhat) younger mother age bracket and [thankfully] have two “Mothers” (husbands and mine) in town I go and honor on this day. Not my turn to be top dog yet. (but thank you for inquiring!) And right now really need to dissapper into a load of work!. I wonder if the 950 travels well? I could take it on vacation with me. awhhh

Just curious (for the parts pricing guys) round here. How much do you think the snazzy “mini-monitor” with security camera feed and its internal collectives added to PPU costs on the FAP's to manufacture?

sdurani -- Cool deal; it's almost as if the reply was meant for my post. I'd noticed that they had done some re-arranging of the layout (shifting sections around) in addition to adding instructions for the additional features. I think I'll make a note to check out Fosgate's manual after the re-write. Could be handy to have multiple approaches to documenting the shared features.

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

$2000?

We’ve seen quite a bit of message traffic recently, both here and elsewhere, dealing with the question of “Who designed the platform that is used by the Model 950 and other brands that sell derivative products manufactured by Eastech, the core OEM/ODM company.” As you read all of these messages and claims, we urge you to remember that each of the companies involved needs to put their own best foot forward. There is both truth and marketing in everyone’s statement.

However, to set the record straight, it is appropriate for us to say the following on this subject and then leave it to you to make your decisions.

- The concept for this platform was developed as an original idea by the Outlaws. We outlined the basic feature set, developed the user interface, provided the basics of the system architecture, specified the major components and subsystems, and participated in the engineering design and evaluation. Anyone who doubts that this can look back in the archives to the press conference held at the CES in 2002 where Cirrus Logic and Eastech jointly announced the product as one developed with Outlaw.

- Anyone who doubts our design and engineering contribution ignores the fact that many of the key innovations of the product, including the triple crossover and the analog bass management switch were specifically engineered by Outlaw. In the case of the triple crossover, we developed the concept and handed it over to Cirrus Logic. They graciously developed the circuitry based on our requirements and then made it available to other licensees.

- We have never hidden the fact that the Model 950 is an OEM/ODM product. However, it is important to understand how that works in this particular case. The 950 was developed on an ODM basis for Outlaw, and in a number of key aspects, BY Outlaw. Once the underlying design was completed, Eastech offered it as an OEM product to other companies. Each of those companies makes their own arrangement with Eastech about what, if anything they wish to change. We have no control over what those changes are, and quite frankly, cannot comment on any claims since we are not involved in those businesses. All we can say for certain is that they are all changes to an underlying design originated by and for the Outlaws.

- Another piece of the puzzle that may help identify the origins of the 950 platform. The owner’s manual was written and designed by Outlaw. As part of our cooperative agreement with Eastech, they make that manual available to their customers as part of the OEM package. Think about it: Wouldn’t it make sense for the group that originated the product to write the manual? As with the product itself, Eastech’s customers are free to alter or adopt our basic manual as they see fit. Some do, some do not.

Regards,

Scott

Hee, hee. *Some* of us knew it was this way all along. But it is nice for Scott to put it down in print for all to see.