Problem Solved

I am anxiously awaiting the Thursday arrival of my Model 950. I guess I would be considered optimistic after reading all of the negative comments in this forum about the hissing issues. I do have two of the "accomplices" of the hiss issue, highly sensitive speakers Klipsch KLF 20 mains (101 db sensitivity), KLF C7 center (98 db) db), RS-7 surrounds (99 db) and 2 Acurus A200x3 and 1 Acurus A200 amplifiers. I sold my Yamaha RX-V2095 which I was using as a pre/pro. I did notice a slight hiss when my ear is against the speakers, which I consider acceptable. I am hoping that is all I hear from the Model 950.

I will keep you posted.

Scott

Scott- Man, you have the "double whammy" of components where hiss has shown up. Yes, will be interesting to hear how bad yours is. Remember, the 950 has a "global mute mode" engaged when you first turn it on. As soon as you play any source, then is the time to check for hiss. (Play a DVD/CD, pause it, then listen.)

But also be aware, that there is some thinking that there is some variation in units. I have been lucky to be able to somewhat audition 4 950's so far. 3 of them acted more or less similarly. For the 4th, the hiss in the mains was similar, but for some reason, my rear center hissed less. That is a data point that still bugs me... 3 of the 4 were in my system, all set up exactly the same.


[This message has been edited by Kevin C Brown (edited November 06, 2002).]

I took some benchmark readings on my 2095 and found that at the 70db reference level (test tones calibrated to 70db which showed about -38db on the volume dial) my SPL did not register any hiss (<50db) but there was hiss audible with my ear to the tweeters in all 5 channels. This was consistent with all DSP modes and input sources. I then dialed the volume up to -20db, a point where you really can't hear yourself think, and the hiss was then audible from about 6-12 inches away from each speaker but I still was showing <50db for the mains and center but 52db for the surrounds.

I will test the 950 tonight, at refernce and at -20db to get a good comparison. To me the levels I am hearing right now don't seem to be that bad.......we'll see with the 950.

Your Yamaha measurements echo my experience. I had an RX-793 for a while. Less hiss than the 950 too.

Ok, after quickly swapping my Yamaha out for the Model 950 it was off to testing.

Results:
1. Audible hiss from listening area 10 feet from main speakers (still did not read above 50db on the SPL meter but it is definitely more noticeable than the Yamaha was). The hiss was independent of source as well as volume level. The surrounds and center did seem to be a little less audible, but maybe that is due to their lower sensitivity?

2. A feature I was missing on the Yamaha that proved to be worth its hype was the 7 and 5 channel stereo. This sounded great. I had tried to modify the room parameters on the party DSP mode on my Yamaha to have no reverb or delay but never got it to sound as good as the Outlaw did. The overall tone did seem a bit warmer than the Yamaha, which I have heard can be overly bright especially with the Klipsh speakers.

3. Video was the same if not maybe a bit better than the Yamaha. I have all S-Video connections and noticed that there was something I liked better about the picture, not sure what but at least the quality was as good if not better.

So far so good, with the exception of the audible hiss..........well next came the HT testing.

4. I picked out a few of my favorite scenes for sound effects and music detail in U571 and Sheryl Crow Rockin' the Globe, both DTS of course. First in U571 in chapter 14 when the submarine fires its deck gun on the destroyer and then proceeds to dive beneath the ship. I was looking for the detailed bullet fire strafing the deck of the sub and the firing of the ships guns. It wasn't there, actually the whole dialog and on screen effects from the center channel did not seem to jump to life as they did on the Yamaha, even at near reference level. The sound, as my wife put it, was very boxy sounding. I varied the crossover from 80 to 100 and even boosted the trim above the calibration point and never could get it right.

On the Sheryl Crow disc, the vocals seemed a bit warmer and blended better with the mains than on the Yamaha. I could here much more detail in the background instruments, like in All I Want to Do track 11 when he is scraping the stick across whatever that wooden thing is. Overall, I can't really tell what setup I like better on this disc, more time listening is needed.

Overall I must say I am not overjoyed with the performance of the model 950. The other quirks like the UI issue are not that big of a deal.

I am however VERY dissapointed that when I put the model 950 on my equipment rack I found that the four feet are not level. There is at least an 1/8" difference in one of the feet that cause it to rock like a uneven fast food table. Where is the QC on that!!!!

I still will give it a fair chance and enjoy it for the trial period, but I also will be auditioning other pieces to get another benchmark against my standard, the Yamaha.

Scott - interesting results. In fact sounds, at least a little bit, that you are happier with its musical sound than for HT. What is interesting is I cannot remember anyone arriving at that. It seems to have been the opposite across all forums. Have you calibrated all channels, etc for you listening?

The feet thing is disapointing. I dont remember, are they adjustable, ie is the one thats off just looser/toghter than the other 3? If not, I'd agree that shouldnt have left the building

You are right Davis S, I do seem to care for the music better, but again, I was looking at the true 5 channel stereo as coompared to my "makeshift" 5 channel stereo on the Yamaha which still sounded to "processed".

I use my 950 mostly for music not HT and like Scott Griscom, I like it for music.

I listen mostly to stereo CD's. On the 950, I compared 2 channel (plus sub) playback, to 5-7 channel (plus sub). Originally, when I first got the 950, I liked the multichannel sound better. But over time, as my ears got better educated, I began more and more to prefer playing back stereo CD's in my 950 as 2 channels (plus sub) rather than in DPL-M, DTS-M or 5/7 channel stereo. It was an educational process, where at first I preferred it one way, but now I prefer it the other way, when playing regular 2 channel CD's.

*Caveat: when I say 5/7 channel, it's meant as multichannel modes like DPL DTS and multichannel stereo. On my 950, I've only listened to 5.1 not 7.1

As far as my calibration goes, Davis S, I have set my reference point at -10 db and trimmed my main speakers to -3db, center to -2db and surrounds to -2db. These numbers seem right considering they are all 10 feet from my listening area and the relative differences in their sensitivitiy listed in my first post. As mentioned in Will's post, maybe it is an ear "training" thing, so I will be doing some heavy listening this weekend to be able to fairly evaluate this piece.

That is really weird. Aside from the foot not being screwed in all the way, about the only other thing I can think of that would cause that is if the chassis took a whack at some point and got bent out of square. I'd be curious to see if you find out the cause.

On my system, I can directly A/B the sound of CDs going through the 950, compared to directly from my CD player. Doing this, I haven't been able to tell any difference in the sound of the direct feed verses having the 950 in the loop. For me, the 950 passes muster, at least in that regard.

Scott: You mention that the Yamaha when measured was at <50dB on the center/mains with 52dB on the surrounds, now on the 950 registering under 50dB but still more noticeable than the Yamaha?

You asked about tweaks
This is what I have going on. Right now my first 950 (the hissier one) is in my rack. AND it has LESS hiss than it did. If I tweaked pertinent to the reduction I have experinced I’m at a loss how to tell you to duplicate. Realize that this was MY first hands on foray into AV. By that statement I mean….I’ve been listening to sound all my life. Music is a necessity in the background of my days. The 950 purchase, (and shortly before) was the first time in my life, I began to pay attention to how to set up a AV system, and why different setups (brands/models/config menus) affect the ‘quality’ of the sound.

Since the 950’s arrival, I have learned to move speaker terminations/route interconnects/calibrate and navigate system setup menus. Source/inputs/SPL/Distance/crossovers/tone controls (treble/bass)/SP modes. The whole side of AV that I left to the ‘men’ till now.

I have changed and played with settings in so many different configurations that there is no way I’d be able to draw a ‘backtrack’ map. Many of these settings were changed over the last months due to advice that was given directly and/or reading posts and contemplating for myself what to attempt and after some critical beginner’s mistakes. (Which most here, with much experience would have skipped over entirely) Ex: Boosting my surrounds way out of proportion, in my excitement over playing with DTS and DD 3.2/1.

If any of the above had an effect on hiss, you explain it me? I know that I (as anyone who loves and listens with heightened attention to all music reproduction) had had opinions on the ability of any system to reproduce it. This setup sounds simply good/better/best/excellent. I never contemplated upon the many variables, which can effect any systems output. Which brands more ably pass the sound and how to tweak any given system to its fullest potential.

When I mentioned I was not happy with the 950 the first weeks, this feeling was not centered on the subject of hiss, but on the general experience of the sound in total. My husband, (who has not become involved due to his own major project at the time) and I both found the 950 fairly flat and unappealing out of the box. (But I set the menus) To be honest I was happier with the output of my old Pro-Logic Receiver. As I learned to navigate through calibration/distances/crossovers and brought these parameters in line with what was best matched with my speakers, each step forward, was as if I had unboxed a new unit. Every other foray into setup, the sound improved dramatically. Could any of this affect the level of my hiss? I don’t’ know, if I had more experience in setting up a system, I could more easily tell you, I changed this and it did that, since I would have been familiar with a baseline average setup and more quickly moved forward from that starting point. As it was, I used up many days, (what’s a interconnect?) learning the bare bones basics. I don’t know what all I’ve done as I’ve reset the system countless times.

Burn in. A subject that can be debated hotly both sides by some engineers. (Whether or not it occurs and can effect sound) In my experience it does occur to a ‘degree’ in systems. But then I have also proved to myself that a change in interconnects does have a net (positive or negative) affect on the quality of sound and picture. I came to this opinion by changing brands out with absolutely no other adjustments made concurrently to the system, and will beg to differ with any (many) who state it does not. While I understand the tricks the brain can play with ears. Changing my component cables alone between 3 brands visually affected color scale on the display to a dramatic degree.

Leading to my contemplating whether there is a possibility that the 950’s burn-in has reduced its hiss over time.
How much effect I had on the distance out I was able to hear hiss by system configuration and how much is due to burn-in, I cannot judge. I could hear ‘hiss’ out to my seating. When the 950 first arrived. Hiss is NOT audible at seating under any source at this time (I have to go put my ear near speaker to find it now) this reduction occurred BEFORE last week’s speaker upgrade.

It crossed my mind when I installed the Beethoven’s that I would most likely increase the distance out of audible hiss than the distance heard with the less capable Def Techs. Counter to my expectations, Hiss has been reduced AGAIN.
I could hear hiss out approx. a foot on the Def Tech center just before the speaker upgrade. The hiss is closer to the fabric with the Vienna Acoustics.!?!

I will say this. When my hiss was audible to seating (to me) on certain passages played on certain sources, I had already made the decision to keep the 950 regardless. After comparisons to everything that I could request or heard playing at any electronic store I have frequented in the last months. Hiss or no, the 950 in totality beat the competition.

"I will say this. When my hiss was audible to seating (to me) on certain passages played on certain sources" - (or another suggested fininsh to your sentence if you dont mind), its because its in the source.

Case in point - I just received MD - Kind of Blue yesterday on SACD. In the intro to "So What" what is there a lot of, HISSSS. Music kicks in, masks the hiss. Press pause, hiss is eliminated, between tracks, no hiss, and so on. This is also the case on Charles Mingus "Ah Um". If its gone between tracks and in pause, how can it not be in the master? Soundhound??

I talked at great length with Peter at Outlaw yesterday regarding the hiss issues with the 950. We actually got into some extremely technical issues regarding what is going on inside the unit, down to the component level. He explained to me what they have been doing to address the hiss issue, and I have to say that I am quite satisfied that they are indeed taking some definitive steps to make sure the problem is fixed once and for all.

I appreciate his openness in discussing the real 'nuts and bolts' problems with the 950, and I think that the units that will be forthcoming will meet the unit's original promise.

I can't divulge any timetable, but help is indeed on the way.

PS: Bill Gates has _not_ used his "Brain Assimilator" on me to make me say these things.

soundhound,

"I appreciate his openness in discussing the real 'nuts and bolts' problems with the 950, and I think that the units that will be forthcoming will meet the unit's original promise"

Was it your impression that we will get a chance to trade our current units for these forthcoming units?

"Kind of Blue" is indeed hissy, and it is on the master tape. Any recording made before 1968 or so is going to have audible hiss: master tape machines, the tape formulations then available, and the lack of Dolby "A" noise reduction is the cause of this. The signal to noise ratio of professional tape recorders at that time, such as the workhorse Ampex 300/350 series was in the vicinity of -55db. Digital has a signal to noise ratio of -90db and better. Big difference.

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited November 08, 2002).]

Thanks Lena, I seem to be in the same state you were in when you first got the 950. Audible hiss, very "flat" sound compared to my Yamaha Receiver. I am content now to see if there is a "burn in period", either for the piece itself or my ears. If I could get the hiss down to the speaker fabric, I would be more than happy. Other than speaker trim, calibration and crossover setting what other things can be done to help liven up the DTS modes?

You will need to address Outlaw on all these issues.

"I will say this. When my hiss was audible to seating (to me) on certain passages played on certain sources" - (or another suggested fininsh to your sentence if you dont mind), its because its in the source.
This is exactly true and I have been concerned that many listeners digging for hiss might confuse these two. The Outlaw is very revealing, If you have never heard that amount of detail from your current system, it takes some getting used to. When I was messing around with ‘hiss’, I did make that mistake, believing I was hearing noise interjected when traced in reality turned out to be in the source/recording itself.

Other than speaker trim, calibration and crossover setting what other things can be done to help liven up the DTS modes?
I’ll think - and try to pay attention if/when I have time to optimize the Viennas this weekend; what changes I make this time. Something you might try is playing with the treble/bass trim in setup for your speakers. Find a scene/recording that appears lacking and loop while changing these. For my setup this directly correlated to reducing some of the ‘flat’ I heard. My Def Tech needed to be set at (I think +2 on treble) The Vienna Beethoven’s preferred 0 but I have not spent time truly optimizing yet. The jump was such (another) leap forward with the new speakers I’ve just been ‘enjoying’. My time to play in settings does not always coincide with when I’m not working. When the phones let up, (evenings/weekends when I send to voice mail) then the A/V tends to be always in use and they get touchy about me interrupting! The other night the center came a night after the fronts my husband placed it then I pulled out my sound meter and they all yelled NO. (They were watching a movie).

I really did NOT have my new plethora of sound modes down the first weeks. I would hit a particular one that sounded good twice in a row and stick to it. (Not a good idea) With time and familiarity I learned which would optimize best for each source and the quality of the individual recording (regardless of source). Across the board properly implementing these - everything is stellar. But then I made some pretty funny mistakes (ask Matthew) like the time I commented to him here in the forum about trying some Cirrus modes and how they affected my sound. (I was even using one as my version of a ‘night compression’ mode- hey - it did what I wanted compressed some peaks) Matthew had to tell me I had speakers set incorrectly for 6.1 (I was running 5.1). I was not ‘wrong’ in the sense that they did/could affect the sound. Try setting your system for 6.1 or 7.1 if you in actuality have 5.1 set up you will hear some differences on these modes depending on source.
It WILL steer the sound differently.....there was just that tiny matter of no sound radiating from that non-hung 6th speaker I had going on!!!

Play and play more that’s what I recommend.

Peter has apparently spoken to many many people who have the hiss and each person has come away with the same feeling of satisfaction, and every one has been told they can't divulge the details of the conversation, and every one has been told they can't divulge the timetable either. But every one says help is on the way, not to worry. This is Total Deja Vu.

Does Peter cut a deal with customers with a hissing 950 that he talks to only, that can't be divulged to the general public?

[This message has been edited by Will (edited November 08, 2002).]

No special deals were brought up, or asked for.

Scott Griscom, I strongly recommend you try adjusting all speaker output levels using something like the Radio Shack Sound Level Meter. Try it-- you'll find that it will make a BIG difference in M/C performance. (See page 27 in the Owner's Manual). Best....

SH: Thanks for the update dude!

Sounds like that movie "Invasion of the Body Snatchers"

Good one!

Don't know what he said, but whatever Peter said to you must have been wonderful. Perhaps an out of body experience.

Did Peter say he'd exchange your hissy 950 for a fixed 950 in the future, even though your 950, like mine, is out of its 30 day warranty?

[This message has been edited by Will (edited November 08, 2002).]

Yes, same deal as the other "assimilated bodies"

Thanks for your suggestion steves. I did setup my system with the Radio Shack SPL meter. I set mains to -3, center to -2, surrounds to -1. However, what I noticed is the center did not seem as noticeable, especially in DTS. Maybe this is good, but I could calibrate the speakers on my Yamaha and the center was a lot more apparent. Maybe I need to work with the distance settings some more. I have my mains at 12 feet, center at 10 feet and surrounds at 9 feet. The Yamaha had setting called center delay which virtually moved the center back a foot for every millisecond adjustment. This seemed to have a large effect on the presence of the center speaker. I will experiment and let you know. If anyone has a good definition of what the distance settings are for other than calculating the delay I would like to hear.

One other thought. I did calibrate my speakers with my Yamaha differently when using the pink noise test tones vs the Avia setup disk. I found that the Avia disk was more accurate because it was actually playing from the source I would be using, not a generated tone from the receiver. I wonder if the Model 950 tones will calibrate differently from Avia. I will let you know.

Scott

Do you think the deal is for everyone who has a hissy 950 out of warranty, or just the people Peter talks to?

[This message has been edited by Will (edited November 08, 2002).]

Hey! That is great news!!

Quote:

I appreciate his openness in discussing the real 'nuts and bolts' problems with the 950, and I think that the units that will be forthcoming will meet the unit's original promise.

I never heard the original promise for the unit. Can anyone explain?

Thanks!

Sayer

My hiss is like yours: independent of volume and source. 10 ft is pretty far away (mine is 2-4 ft). Can you hear it at your listening position?

Likewise my hiss doesn't register above 50 dB on an SPL meter, even with the SPL meter shoved up against the speaker. But obviously, I can still hear it. Two conclusions:

1) People can hear sounds of less than 50 dB. (Duh!)

2) SPL measurements of hiss don't really mean anything unless they are *above* 50 dB, and hence, that is pretty bad hiss!

3) "Reference" level is 75 or 85 dB or something? So even a 50 dB measurement only gets you 25-35 dB of dynamic range, signal-to-noise. What is CD's theoretical limit... 96 dB or something?

Scott, sorry I left off calibration on my ‘tweaks’ but for the reason you listed, somehow I assumed you had.
It was the single most ‘effective’ adjustment I made in early days. You mentioned your center, switching to the new set of Vienna’s I just purchased. I bumped the center in calibration 1/2/3 clicks (sorry dB). after bringing all speakers level and I may have pulled the fronts back one. I have different impedance going on between my center and Fronts. (I’ll have to go learn more about impedance; it’s strange that the Maestro center I purchased is at 6 Ohms and the Beethoven at 4 Ohms, yet the Maestro center is listed as the match for the Beethoven’s http://www.sumikoaudio.net/Vienna.htm I guess this is where you deal with amplification. But I don’t feel the Outlaw amp is stressed pushing these speakers, the center adjustments are probably/possibly more the fact I have Floorstanders in a small room and the center has to be brought up to keep up. But even with the Def Tech’s I bumped off level (slightly) for the best blend around this room.

I meant that it would do what it says it will do, and meet it's specifications.

So far testing is going good. I have found that the "flatness" was done away with by increasing the treble to +2. I am not a fan of using bass and treble to change the sound (I left both at 0 on my Yamaha) but in this case, it did bring back the brightness I was looking for. Unfortunately it is across the board on all sources not source independent, even though the selection is available when configuring the input. Seems like it should have been independent of source. Anyway, sounds better. One question, I now have my back surrounds running but they are at a distance of 15 feet compared to my side surrounds at 9 feet. What should I set my speaker distance for the surrounds, a compromise of 12 or leave them at 9. Again, I am surprised you cannot change the back surrounds distance independent of the side surrounds.

By giving this a chance I am liking what I am hearing more and more.......if it wasn't for that hiss. My 4 year old son even told me my speakers were hissing. I would say that was an unbiased ear!

Scott

Ears like familiar sounds better than new sounds. You're probably getting used to the sound. It has a nice sound I think, except for the hiss.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited November 11, 2002).]

Ears like familiar sounds better than new sounds. You're probably getting used to the sound!

I think there’s only a very small amount of 'that' which goes on. I've fooled my minds ear a few times building something up in my head (too far) and when I go back to an actual source realizing I over/under emphasized. But if ‘getting use to the sound of a product’ had very much more than a negligible impact, I’d be surprised. Otherwise none of us could ever be capable of walking in a speaker demo room to upgrade our speakers to something that sounds vastly superior to the old speakers we are used to.

I do think with a pre-pro or receivers (with their varied array of functions and settings) that it takes time in each persons setup to overcome individual battles with room acoustics and the interactions of their different chain of components, - to get it where they like it. In other words, - optimization.

Still wondering how everyone has their rear surround speaker distance set when using a 7.1 arrangement?

It is not separately adjustable on the 950. Actually, it is not an important thing to worry about, compared to the fronts vs. the center.

Scott,
I just cut the middle between the distance measurments, say it was 8 & 11. Try 9 and 10. Move it back and forth by 1 foot till it sounds right. Works well for me.

I split the difference between them, probably a little closer to the surrounds than the surround back.

------------------
gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

Thanks for the input everyone. I will split between 9 and 15, probably 11 or 12.

Thanks!

So, any new news?

I have personally had posession of the prototype of the 'hiss fixed' 950. It definately solves the hiss problem to my satisfaction. The noise measures about 4 db less, and in addition there is 8db more gain with no increase in noise as a result of the added gain. The result is that there is an approximately 12 db imporvement in the noise floor. The volume control and trims now funcion more as in a traditional preamp, with lower volume control settings yielding lower noise. Since you can set the 950's volume 8 db lower because of it's increased output, the noise is 8 db lower right there. For comparason, most people percieve a 10db change in volume as being 'half as loud' or 'twice as loud', so the improvement in the 950's noise is very significant.

Once the replacements are shipping, I will post a briefing on how to set up the unit in order to realise maximum benfit of the fixes, for your particular system configuration, and issues.

Outlaw came through!

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited November 20, 2002).]

Great news soundhound. Any idea on a ship time.

No. The modifications are extensive, with the replacement of over 100 parts, and will take a certain amount of time.

Wow, that is quite an undertaking on the Outlaws part. Makes me feel even better having stuck out the hiss problem knowing that a fix of this magnitude has been worked out.

Will this fix be transparent across most setups or will someone like me, with the evil Acurus and Klipsch setup have to compromise on the hiss solution due to my components.

You'll notice an across the board reduction of hiss of -at least- 8 db or more, depending on your setup. My system is probably 'worse' than yours in terms of being a worst case scenario for noise, with front speakers having 106 db/watt efficiency.

I know what you mean about the efficincies. I have 102db for the fronts, 99db for the center and 98db for the surrounds. Will not having adjustable gain on the amplifier as I have bee a hindrance when trying to fine tune the levels to the best compromise for the hiss. Also, does the trim affect the apparent noise now in the new configuration. Meaning a +5db vs a -5db on a certain speaker will have a lower apparent noise because the overall volume level can be set lower?

The trims now effect the level of the noise, as does the main volume control. You will not have any penalty for not having level controls on your power amps. Basically, you will be able to reduce either the trims by 8db, or simply listen with the main volume control lower by 8db, to realize the reduction in noise. Also, the absolute noise has been reduced by approximately 4db overall. The 'character' of the noise is also different; it is now more of a "Shhhhh" verses a "HIsssss" in the non-modified 950. That makes what noise that remains less "hissy" to the ear, and less objectionable.



[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited November 20, 2002).]

Again great news. I appreciate all of your insights and updates.

Counting down the days!
Scott

I can't wait...I guess my ears are getting used to it, BUT a buddy came over to watch LOTR and he commented on the hiss. He loves the sound of the outlaw, but did not like the hiss.

z

Soundhound,


I've been hoping that Outlaw would come through for those of us whose 950's hiss from well over a foot out.

I wonder if the replacment 950's will be free to those of us who have hissy 950's out of warranty. The Outlaws haven't said anything publicly about what their replacement policy might be. I hope they publish a policy statement soon. There are no doubt quite a few people in the same boat, with hissy 950's out of warranty.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited November 21, 2002).]

Out of warranty? The 950 has a 5 year like the amps doesn't it? Besides it hasn't been a year yet.

------------------
m-mmeyer
GO TWINS
My DVD's

Do you mean out of the 30-day return window, Will? I don't anticipate that being a problem.

I'd recommend that anyone with a real hiss contact Outlaw directly and start a dialog. They appear to be very serious about getting it resolved, but unlike the "red dot" revision it sounds (at least to me; I haven't heard anything official about it) like the "soundhound" revision is going to only go to individuals still experiencing hiss (which means individuals who tell them about a hiss).

------------------
gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

Great news! I have listened to very few CD's on the 950 b/c it just pisses me off too much to hear the hiss. Outlaw is well aware of my problem, so I look forward to hearing from them. I really hope this fixes the problem, as I am otherwise very happy with the 950, and I like to support a small company with good customer service.

Well I took delivery of my 950/770 combo just yesterday (my first foray into the world of separates), fully hooked up, tweaked and calibrated (well, we much as you can do in just one day).
Right away I could hear hiss (running Klipsch RF3s (mains), RC3II (Front Center), RS3s (L/R Surrounds), RC3, (Rear Center)) and an audible 'hum'.

I hooked the 950 to the 770 with plain old audio connects, the kind you get free with new gear (low end gear only it seems), anyway, I could hear the hum from the 'left side' only, I then swapped out those cables for other 'generic' cables, problem solved, hum was gone, hiss reduced.

Speakers set to small about 8ft from the sweet spot, I can hear hiss, it's not HISSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS like you would get if you cranked up the 950 with no signal but audible nonetheless. Moreover, I can hear hiss emanating predominantly from my side surrounds (I’ve read this elsewhere as well).

Today I received some interconnects from Bettercables (thanks Brad!) so I will not be using the generic ones, so I would imagine that given the drastic change in swapping out the generic ones for more generic one I should have better results with the new interconnects. Then again, maybe not.

The soundstage is much fuller, smoother is the best way to describe it, the SVS has much more oompf now (even set to the exact settings (-5) I used on the 1050) and the (re) addition of my rear channel in titles like ATOC and LOTR:EE sounds great and it can definitely go LOUDER

I’m going to do a tad more tweaking this weekend and watch a few films that I know that have ‘quiet’ scenes prior to ‘loud’ scenes to see if it’s bothersome.


[This message has been edited by Xen (edited November 22, 2002).]

Good advice. Since I haven't heard from them, I'll call the Outlaws and tell them my 950 still hisses from well over a foot. Hopefully they'll say they intend to replace it with a hiss-free version, and for free, even though I've owned it for well over 30 days.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited November 24, 2002).]

Will:

I may only be a dog, but I think I can save you a call. Given all your posts here, one can think it is safe to presume that the Outlaws are aware that YOU have a problem with hiss. In fact, it could be reasonable to presume that most of the entire home theater world knows that you have a hiss problem.

Won't you be sorry when it's gone or will you find something else to complain about?

But what do I know, I'm only a dog.

ARF ARF says Iggy.

Will:

As I posted earlier, the modded 950s will have their hiss reduced by a subjective level of at least one-half of what it was previously, which is quite a bit. It's your choice whether you view this hiss-glass as being half full, or half empty.....

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited November 24, 2002).]

SH:

So what is the noise as measured by you on the 'newest' revision of the 950? And do you consider it excellent, very good, good, or merely improved?

THX

Charlie:

The measured noise is about 4-5 db better (-85db wideband on the prototype), BUT the gain now is about 8db higher, and the volume control and trims now control the gain AND hiss level. The bottom line is that you can lower the volume or trim by 8 db which lowers the noise relative to the old 950 by 8db IN ADDITION to the 4-5 db measured noise reduction. This is about a 12 db or so noise reduction total relative to the old 950. This subjectively is a reduction of a bit over one-half as much noise as before. In other words, if you could hear noise at 1 foot before, now it is the same hiss at 6 inches, if you could hear the hiss at 50 yards before, now it is only 25 yards The 'quaity' of the noise is also more of a Shhhh, rather than a Hissss, as in the present 950, so the hiss that remains is a bit less 'hissy'. I honestly think this is a big improvement, without totally trashing the basic platform of the 950 and starting over. There's not much more they could do, short of a total re-design (and I would assume that is going to be the 'big brother' design). It's good enough for me. I don't know if you ever had a 950 or not, but if you did, think of the noise being cut in half, and see if that is good enough for you.


[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited November 24, 2002).]

A little birdy told me that in some systems, the reduction might be more on the order of 2/3's or so...

For example, for me: 4 ft for my rear center goes down to 18" (gets it out of any listening position), and my mains that were at about 2 ft, gets them down to 6-8".



[This message has been edited by Kevin C Brown (edited November 25, 2002).]

My cat just ate such a bird

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited November 25, 2002).]

Soundhound and Kevin C. Brown,

Since you evidently have modded 950's in house, can you say how the modded 950's compare hiss-wise to the pre/pro's you were using before the 950? I understand the modded 950 is less hissy than your red dot 950 which you both thought was hissy, but how does it compare in terms of hiss, to the pre/pro's you used before the 950?

[This message has been edited by Will (edited November 25, 2002).]

So, when are these so-called "new and improved" 950s going to ship? Will it be a running change? (That is, selling them as the deplete the older, defective 950s.)

Will

When you say 'well over a foot' I expect you would mean 40-50-60 per cent more -

So that would put it in the range of 17-19 inches.

That would still mean it would be not audible in any place someone would actually LISTEN to speakers - in fact I would dare say that there are only rare cases where a speaker is listened to UNDER 4 feet.

I'm just wondering out loud (at over 4 feet ) if this all isn't a hiss in a teapot.

[This message has been edited by John Padova (edited November 25, 2002).]

According to Soundhound's tests, my red dot 950 doesn't meet its S/N specs.

Will:

The only Pre/Pro I have to compare it to is my Sony EP 9-ES, and the modded 950 is much quieter.

You should call Outlaw directly for any info of that sort.

I guess I'm just used to living in 'hiss city' - with the efficiency of my horns, I can hear hiss from my crossover and power amp by themselves out to a foot. To combat noise, I even have my gain structure so that the drive going to the electronic crossover is +15db at a CDs full scale output in order to reduce the noise of the crossover, which uses video buffer amps. The power amp for my high frequency horns (1,200Hz and above) is a single ended triode, which puts out (count 'em) 7 watts - and with my gain structure, it is actually _attenuating_ the voltage being fed to it, to drive the horns.

Has anyone actually done a frequency analysis of their 'hiss?'

I'm also a bit confused with the occurrence of hiss with high efficiency speakers. Shouldn't the efficiency just push the whole frequency sensitivity 'curve' up? - and the other non-hiss sounds around the 'hiss' frequency' increased in volume - leading to a simple 'wash.'

High efficiency horns shouldn't be selecting just the hiss - why isn't everything just remaining in the same RELATIVE distribution regardless of efficiency?

[This message has been edited by John Padova (edited November 25, 2002).]

While I haven't done a spectrum analysis, I don't need to; it is simple 'white noise', which has an increasing amplitude as frequency increases, therefore it is heard as coming more from the tweeter, horn or not. Having an efficient speaker is like putting a magnifying glass on the noise coming out of your system. By the way, my woofers are horns too.

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited November 25, 2002).]

Sorry - but that still doesn't make sense. ALL boats rise with a high tide.

Since posting I made a few calls to recording people - and they could not think how a high efficiency speaker with a FLAT curve (hopefully more a 'line') - and thus a HIGH FIDELITY speaker (fidelity to the original sound - garbage in, garbage out) - would be tilted more towards reproducing 'hiss' (let's call it white noise since we don't really know the spectrum except what's been said here seems to at least indicate a white-sound 'mix') than any other speaker - high OR low-efficiency.

If Klipsch has crazy peaks in the upper (over 5 kHz) area then it is just an anomaly - and however much one might like it - (some people like ketchup on a good steak) - it is NOT a high fidelity speaker! (Mind you I have NOT accused Klipsch of such - I am just saying that would be the logical consequence if one is saying Klipsch is 'hissing' more than other speakers).

[This message has been edited by John Padova (edited November 25, 2002).]

You aren't considering what I said above about 'white noise'. It has an INCREASING amplitude as frequency rises, therefore it has more energy going to the tweeters than to the woofers. If it were 'pink noise' which has equal energy _per octave_ then it would be heard as coming more from _all_ the drivers. Of course all speakers, horn or not reproduce equally across the spectrum (or should), regardless of efficiency, but since the nature of the noise is tilted toward the high end, that is what is being heard.

BTW, my horns are not Klipsch.


[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited November 25, 2002).]

In my understanding on systems like this the older 950 displayed noise that was not gain dependent, thus although the system had lots of excess gain the noise floor was elevated. So in theory all boats rode up, but in fact, unless one can attenuate their ears (and/or have infinite amp power) the practical effect is an elevated noise floor.

The new 950 shows noise that tracks gain if I'm understanding correctly, which is more useful.

Charlie:

You are right about the new 950. Lower the volume control, and the noise lowers also. The 'old' 950 was 'worst case' all the time, regardless of the position of the volume control.

Sorry - dense between the ears maybe here

If a speaker produces a straight line OUT - which I feel a high fidelity speaker should - what difference should the TYPE of speaker do to that signal coming OUT? The speaker should be basically thought of as a black box and what is before the OUT of the box should be irrelevant once we have chosen it to be our reproducer.

Therefore any efficiency issues should have NO effect on the spectral distribution as simple volume adjustment should make OUTPUT 1 = OUTPUT 2.

There is the possibility that one MIGHT listen to horns at HIGHER volumes than non-horns because lower frequencies might have more 'muscle' subjectively - thus 'filling' the ear from the less efficient (non-horn) speaker at lower output levels. But you say you have high-efficiency horns at lower frequencies too.

But - really - without trying to be confrontational in an impolite way - I am still stuck on the 'all boats/high tide' analogy.

[This message has been edited by John Padova (edited November 25, 2002).]

You are absolutely right about what you say. Efficiency has no effect on the frequency balance of a speaker. Straight line in, straight line out. BUT the signal (noise) 'in' in this instance is tilted toward the high end of the spectrum, and the speaker is just passing along what it is getting; noise that is accentuated in the high end. Horn or not, you'll hear more energy from the tweeter than the woofer with this type of noise.

If you've used a spectrum analyzer to check the frequency response of a speaker, you've undoutedly used 'pink noise' as the signal source. This type of noise should display a flat line across the frequency spectrum on the analyzer. It sounds just like it looks, equal across the band. "White noise" is never used as a signal source, and if you looked at it on a spectrum analyzer, it would be a rising line from low to high frequencies. It sounds just like it looks. White noise is the type of noise that is generated in electronic equipment. Pink noise is artificially produced by imposing a 3db per octave filter on a white noise source.

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited November 25, 2002).]

Does that thus mean you are of the same opinion that the 'type' of speaker reproducer is irrelevant - if each type has the same spectral effect (hopefully none- but that is also irrelevant) on the input signal?

This should also mean that the output SPL's are also equal because the ear is more sensitive to lower and upper frequencies at higher volumes (our friends Flethcer and Munson - who have, btw, opened a chain of steak houses - alas - no ketchup).

Technically, that should be the case. I practical terms, it is not. Horns just sound different than direct radiators. The dispersion patterns are very different between them for starters. Horns also can in theory produce lower distrotion by virture of the fact that the diaphrams don't have to move as much to reproduce the same sound level. Horns can also handle sound pressure levels that would shread a direct radiator speaker. Horns have their own set of problems. They can sound colored of not implemented just right.

In a nutshell, pink noise is distributed such that the same amount of energy is in the space from 100-200 Hz as in the space 10000-20000 Hz, whereas white noise has constant density, such that the same energy is present from 100-200 as from 10000-10100.

If I understand correctly:

The issue with high gain amps/speakers is that if (as was the case with the 950) the noise floor is a fixed level and the gain from the pre-out to ear is high, this noise floor will rise to an annoying level even though the gain is turned down. Any adjustment in that chain (amp gain for instance) can be used to bandaid it, but the new revision sounds like it's correctly implemented.

Charlie:

That's right.

Let's say you have a preamp/power amp chain that puts out, say 5 millivolts of noise constantly. Hang a direct radiator speaker on it that has a 90db efficiency for 1 watt input. It will produce that 5 millivolts of noise from upstream at a sound pressure level of "X". Hang a horn that has an efficiency of 106db for that same watt on it, and it will reproduce that same 5 millivolts of noise a whopping 16db louder.

This also explains why horns sound better with tube power amps. Any crossover distortion, or any other nasties such as the effect of large amounts of negative feedback from the power amp get amplified much more with horns. Tube amps run much 'richer' in class A/B than solid state ones, and also have much less global negative feedback. For my tweeter horns (1,200Hz and above) I've even gone the route of class "A" triode power; no crossover distrotion, and no negative feedback. Of course, you could also use a class "A" solid state power amp, but those are very, very difficult to come by.

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited November 25, 2002).]

sh: You're completely right with the 'more high frequencies' with horns because of the directivity feature. (Apologies - had let that slip by). So the showing up of hiss could indeed be signicantly more with directional speakers.

As for your other 'horn' comments: 'exaggerated' horns can be pretty 'bad' - and most should be relegated to PA - a quality tweeter with a 'small' exponential horn built as an extension of the tweeter's own dome can produce very good - and high fidelity - sound.

You're quite right, but don't get stuck on the typical 'bias' against horns! As in all things in life, it is the _implementation_ that is the key. I've heard some pretty gastly direct radiators too. Compression drivers have some definate advantages over direct radiators. One obvious one over a horn in front of a cone or dome speaker is the phase cancellation that occurs due to the differing path lengths from the edges of the cone relative to the center of the cone as the sound travels out the mouth of the horn. Compression drivers get around this problem. I suggest you listen to a really well set up horn system before making sweeping judgements!



[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited November 25, 2002).]

PS

When I started to 'conflict' with the horn comments here - I was reacting to the 'efficiency' aspect of horns and got myself waylaid there.

I had forgotten about the directivity.

But maybe there was some good in my getting 'off-track' - it seems like there were more than a few here that thought of the efficiency characteristic of horns to be the reason for 'hiss sensitivity' - it was (is) instead the increased higher frequency response because of the wider dispersion due to the higher directivity-feature of 'horns.'

The use of the word 'directivity' in this connection is itself a bit of a paradox - because 'directivity' is the reason 'normal' speaker elements disperse high frequencies 'badly.' A horn that is exponentially curved (correctly) to allow frequencies to be widely dispersed at many angles is what is behind this - the horn is 'widening' the spectrum which would normally be restricted by the principle of directivity which says that the higher the frequency the more it will only be directed in a straight line from its point of emission.

Back to Fletcher and Munson's for a bite of steak (sans ketchup or 'steak sauce')!

Horns do disperse all of their energy in a controlled manner 'forward' more than a direct radiator. Direct radiators direct more energy 'into the room' before it hits your ears. Horns are the opposite, they direct more energy to your ears before it is dispersed into the room. This is a good argument in favor of a fully horn-loaded system, top to bottom; the dispersion pattern stays the same throughout the frequency spectrum. Horns are still subject to the 'beaming' problem as frequency increases, but less so than a direct radiator.

Horns are sort of like wearing headphones; since the sound is more direct-to-the-ear, more details can be heard. This is exactly why they make good monitor speakers.

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited November 25, 2002).]

"Horns are sort of like wearing headphones; since the sound is more direct-to-the-ear, more details can be heard. This is
exactly why they make good monitor speakers."

Fine - but always remember as per Prof. Hayakawa -- horn 1 is not necessarily horn 2.

All horns are NOT good - some companies will use a 'horn' just as a moniker - often bringing what SHOULD be heard as catastrophic results. A good direct radiator can be MANY times more accurate (hi-fi) than a mediocre horn design.

[This message has been edited by John Padova (edited November 25, 2002).]

1) And the converse is ALSO true that a good horn is better than a mediocre direct radiator!

2) I have VERY good horns!

3) You don't seem to have much DIRECT experience with good horns, do you!!

"Horns are the opposite, they direct more energy to your ears before it
is dispersed into the room"

I have some doubts if this is indeed what is happening.

If you are positioned on direct axis from the emitting source the energy will just simply come directly to your ear - and reflections from walls, etc. will reach you later.

If you are off-axis by some 30-45 degrees - frequencies from a direct radiator will be reduced by some 40-50% (ballpark) - if a horn is used the reduction will be some 10-15% (ballpark) -- because the horn 'shape' has allowed the frequencies to be emitted from an angled surface - they will still obey the maximum energy at a 90 degree angle to the emitter - but the emitting surface will have moved away from the zero point because of the horn effect.

I believe it is this geometry working with the 90 degree principle that allows for the wider dispersion and is completely independent of sounds coming later from those waves that did not reach your ear directly.

That does NOT mean that the acoustics of the room and subsequent reflections and absorptions are not relevant to the quality of sound but the first and primary influence (assuming that the room acoustics are not TOTALLY horrific) is going to be a function of higher frequencies being emitted 'off-angle' thanks to a good horn.

[This message has been edited by John Padova (edited November 25, 2002).]

Horns do not direct energy 'off axis' as readily as a direct radiator, more is directed in the direction of the horn. The room absorption happens at a greater distance from a horn than for a direct radiator. That's why they are used in PA applications. Simply cupping your hands around your mouth will prove this!

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited November 25, 2002).]

"You don't seem to have much DIRECT experience with good horns, do you!!"

++

VERY much with one we designed ourselves - some very BAD experience with others that were commercially available for mortal budgets

When using a horn adapted for a direct radiator it is INCREDIBLY critical to create an almost perfect continuum from the dome of the radiator to the surface of the horn. Failing to do so would seem to create a very nasty problem.

Anyhow - we should return this forum topic to those 'debating' how many millimeters away from a speaker will result in hiss from an Outlaw 950.

I, myself, am very rarely closer than 6 feet to a speaker so i guess from what i read here that I would NEVER have a problem with a 950 except to wonder if I indeed had turned it off after the movie was over

So, was the horn you built yourselves any good?

PS: The noise in the 950 has been fixed, we have the forum to ourselves

"So, was the horn you built yourselves any good?"

Actually yes -- frequency 'curves' were basically frequency 'lines' and off-axis was DAMN good - even the bass went to about 32 Hz -6 dB - which was measured by a government lab - and not just an 'ad spec.'

So what do you have against horns if your's worked so well?

Soundhound,

Have you measured the S/N? If so, what does the S/N ratio measure on your modified 950? You measured the S/N to be worse on my unmodified red dot 950 than on yours. But the hiss was louder in your 950-based system because your speakers are horns and are more efficient than mine which are direct radiators. Anyway, I hope the modified 950's have consistent S/N readings rather than some being measurably better than others. I'm no expert in these matters though.

Not trying to offend, but .... actually it is the sensitivity (or efficiency) that causes the noise problem to be more obvious. It's a pretty easy concept and SH and myself have both explained it - did you miss that part?

Of course some variation is going to be there, but I too would hope for improved consistency unit to unit.

Will:

I don't have a replacement 950 yet. There was only one prototype that was circulated. I had it for a day, and measured/listened to it. My findings are in this thread from yesterday, I believe. It basically has a _real_ improvement of about 12db, which is quite big. I am familiar with the ICs and other parts they were replacing, and I can see no reason that there will be any variation between units to speak of. Why your's and mine measured so wildly different is anybody's guess. Once they get the units modded in Malaysia, We should get them, and live in blessed silence - aside from the car crashes, explosions, and other acts of wanton violence

Yet another reason I'm happy to no longer be a habitual 'early adopter'....

I wonder if the clones ever had this problem, and whether the 'fix' will eventually roll over to them?

Come on Charlie, we know you love to live life on the 'bleeding edge"

Ah, the CLONES!! _That_ should be very interesting! I really feel bad for the Outlaws having to deal with this mess....I'm sure the clones had the same problems....

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited November 25, 2002).]

Good question... last time I saw any Clones, they were attacking a bunch of Droids...

Does that mean you’re a little devil?

Yet another reason I'm happy to no longer be a habitual 'early adopter'
I’m THRILLED I jumped in, - 6 months of fun already…. that’s half a year! It interesting to note that most posters with or without (the hiss) …have ENJOYED the heck out of their 950, complimented it, and did not want or change to the alternatives.

Lena:

You have to admit that all the posting about hiss ultimately resulted in a better product for us, _and_ Outlaw

The horns mean that I'm horn..... oh, never mind!

Something involving squeaks, wheels and grease comes to mind...

Also - the 200 has a much nicer logo - not coincidence I bet.

Personally, I much prefer calm cool quiet private dialogue when attempting to squeak. And if that doesn’t work I break out the new outfit. (where is a 'wicked' grin smiley's when you need one) I find only mice tend to have squeaking down to a pleasant art, although I have been known to scream…but only momentarily to prevent someone from stepping in front of a car.

Admit? Admit what? Hasn’t your wife ever lent you her operating manual. We never ‘admit’ to anything, as it is frequently counterproductive. If we ‘admit’ you can be assured that some where the ensuing sentence will contain a ‘But, Still or Nonetheless’. It’s,…..It’s just….. one of the rules.

Ex: It is interesting to note that Outlaw has further lowered the noise floor of a product that was irregardless already a highly recommended and very satisfactory addition for those looking to upgrade their current pre/pro or making the break into separates. Exponentially increasing the already noticeable gap between the 950 and its competition.

Lena:

All I can say is that sometimes it pays to speak your mind when something isn't right, otherwise things have a tendency to not get resolved. Suffering in silence just ain't my style.

CH

It seems that SH was going along with the irrelevancy of efficiency - and we got it back to directivity of horns.

If you could re-state it with the above discussion taken into account, it would be appreciated (the repeating of the efficiency position - not necessarily the position .

SH:

The horns were made of lathed aluminum in a batch of 500 and because the non-horn version of the speaker was usually excellent enough in the small rooms where the speakers were sold - it was uneconomical to make another batch. A commerciaal calculation - not a technical one.

I was not sounding off on horns as I have no preejudice against them - just own experience (including selling god awful EV PA horns) has made me cautious of any one word/two word solutions. I had to put up with people running around claiming direct drive tt's were better than belt per se, moving coil better than moving magnet, closed better than reflex, etc. - without anyone questioning whether the ACTUAL technology was better that I approach such things with great caution. Horns - as almost anything else - can be good - IF they are good

John:

You've no doubt seen the Avant Garde horns from Germany? They are pretty hard-core looking. I heard them at a Stereophile show and wasn't impressed particularly. How about you? I am particularly sensitive to the traditional tendency of horns to sound 'honky' for lack of a better word. The Avant Gardes sounded honky to me. Actually, _most_ horn designs I've heard sound not so good, at least to my ears. It's taken about 50 pounds of "Aquaplas" on my high frequency horn (they're a couple feet wide at the mouth) to get them to sound right. The result _was_ worth it though.

I've also found that horns almost demand to be driven by tube amps, and single ended triode tube amps are even better.

Sure! I was hoping you wouldn't take that wrong and become angry. Good. My understanding of it in a nutshell:

If a signal chain is generating a noise output that is fixed verses signal output then a sensitive speaker will cause the noise to be more audible. For instance a set of 106 db/w speakers would make the noise 16db louder than a 90 db/w pair since the listener adjusts the signal volume to be equal with the preamp volume knob.

Thus the effective noise floor is raised.

The 'new' 950 raises and lowers the 'hiss' with the volume. The old one did not, although the (non-variable) noise was low enough not to be an issue for most.

Can you explain in "audio for dummies" terms why this is better? I had a "hissy" 950 that I returned to Outlaw, two of them actually. Though I'm not likely to risk trying another one, I'm curious to know why a hiss that tracks the volume setting on the preamp would be better or rather, less objectionable, than a hiss that was constant.

[This message has been edited by Ellen (edited November 27, 2002).]

If the hiss is constant regardless of gain, then hiss will be very noticeable at lower volume settings because there is little signal to mask it. If you have very efficient speakers, you will use the 950 at a lower gain (volume) setting. With the lower setting, the hiss is greater in proportion to the actual signal, but the amplifier sends both the noisy hiss and the lower signal to the speakers, causing the hiss to be very audible along with the signal.

Conversely, if the hiss level changes with gain level, it will be less at lower gain settings, keeping the hiss quieter when listening at low levels or with very efficient speakers.

Add to this the lower noise floor AND the greater gain that Soundhound measured, and you come up with a much quieter unit. (one that is about 40% as hissy as the old units at normal listening, but should be extremely quiet at lower listening levels!)

I left a phone message about the hiss and next day got a very nice email requesting details about my hiss and saying they will update me when a fix becomes available.

How can one tell in, say, 60 days whether or not the 950 they get is SH fixed?

I would imagine that Outlaw themselves, or people who start getting the new ones, will post about it.

I've personally had good luck with getting answers to stuff like this when I've emailed them (Scott & Mike) directly. (The customer service email id.)

Good Morning And Happy Holidays To All,
Does anyone know if the latest iteration of the 950 resets the gain back to it's original state? While I have minimal hiss, I am bothered that when they lowered the gain to mask the hiss, I sometimes run out of headroom now.

I think that some users ended up bumping their speaker trims up a few dB across the board to compensate for it -- by using an SPL meter to calibrate the system's test tone to 75dB at the 00dB volume level, I ended up wiht the same effective gain as before (the individual speaker trim settings all rose ~2dB or so if I remember correctly). YMMV.

------------------
gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

Thank you, I'll try that.

gonk,
I recalibrated to 75 at 00, and it looks like I reclaimed some of the lost headroom. Thanks for the tip.

I just reviewed the Outlaw 950 on the AudioReview site. I also have the 770 amp. After the Initial set-up, I also had some minor noise/hiss issues. After some system improvements outlined below, I can say that, at least for me, the Hiss monster is DEAD silent... Gone.

Subsequently, I have installed the 950/770 combo in two of my clients homes, and have had similar success in slaying the monster. I am an architect, often having to design home theaters for both renovations and new construction.

I have a suspicion that many of the hiss and other audio quality issues people are experiencing are related to ground faults, power supply and cable noise pollution . My 950 was apparently sensitive to these before I installed a Coaxial cable filter and power conditioner. I found that separating the Coaxial filter (different powerstrip) from my Monster Power 5000 power conditioner was necessary to completely eliminate the subtle, yet noticeable noise/hiss problem.

I would like to hear your opinions and/or observations. Thank you.

What is the cost of a Coaxial cable filter and a Monster Power 5000 power conditioner?

Others have reported that they have a noticable hiss even without cable connections and the hiss didn't go away when they put a power conditioner on the line. But most of us don't have a super duper Monster 5000 power conditioner.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited December 19, 2002).]

The modified, hiss fixed 950s are here. I received an Email today that mine was ready to ship, but since I live very close to their west coast distribution facility, I merely picked mine up on will call.

The unit is now on the test bench of the palacial SoundHound Testing Labs, and I will report on my findings in a bit.

!!!

Very interesting. I look forward to your findings, good sir.

------------------
gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

I just hooked up my system which includes an ATI 1505 and M&K 750 THX speakers and I can hear the hiss a full 8 feet away at my listening position. I just recieved this unit 2 weeks ago. What is the deal? I thought this problem was supposed to be fixed. I'm pretty dissapointed,

Tim

OK: The new 950 has been measured, and installed into my rack.

First of all, I measured the noise level in the same manner that I have done to all the previous 950s I've come across, i.e. Analog DSP mode, with a 20Khz low pass filter in-line with the lab AC voltmeter. The main volume control was at "00" and the trims were at "0". The new 950 measures as follows:

Left Front Out: -82.5dbm
Center Out: -83.5dbm
Right Front Out: -82.5dbm
Left Side Surround Out: -82.5dbm
Right Side Surround Out: -83.0dbm
Left Back Surround Out: -81.5dbm
Right Back Surround Out: -81.5dbm

To reference the same 2 volts as in the specs in the owner's manual, you would add 8.23db to the above measurements. Taking into account the added 8.5db of gain in the new 950, which was attained without any incerase in noise, you could add another 8.5db on top of that, bringing the total to around 99.2db. The readings between the channels are very consistent, which is a good sign.

Does the new 950 meet it's publeshed spec for noise? The spec in the owner's manual for noise in the Analog DSP mode is -98db _"A" weighted_. If you take into account the added gain, and reference 2 volts, then the new 950's noise is -99.2db _full band, 20Khz_. I don't posess an "A" weighting filter, as I don't believe it to be a valid filter for measuring noise on high-end audio equipment (my opinion), and that a 20Khz band limited measurement is the valid one. Therefore Outlaw's measurement and mine are not directly comparable. All I can say is that the new 950 _does_ meet it's published spec, taking into account the added gain, and referencing the 2 volts stated in the owner's manual. The measurement would be somewhat better if I used the "A" weighting filter they used.

Other improvements: the volume and trim controls now act like those in a traditional analog preamp i.e. as you turn the volume control up, the noise increases, as you turn it down, the noise decreases. The previous 950 had a constant noise level, which was "worst case" regardless of the position of the volume or trims, and this is one reason some people such as myself with very efficient speakers (mine are 106db/watt) experienced a problem with hiss.

Now the bottom line in all this is that you can essentially turn down the 950's volume controls, or the trims, or the input volume controls of your power amps, and realize a net noise reduction of at least 8db, due to the gain increase alone.

So, how does it perform in my system?

Well, I got everything hooked up: changing the 950 in my system is "the Mother of all bitches" due to the fact that I have almost every jack on the 950 plugged into something, and my 950 is at the bottom of a stack of 4 other components, a Sony EP-9ES pre/pro, and my Sony DVD player, with a phono preamp and a Smart "CircleSurround" box on top of it all (!)

I calibrated my system for 75db all around using the internal quasi-pink noise generator of the 950. I have volume controls on all my power amps, so I left all the trims at "0" on the 950.

Did I hear any hiss? Well, very, very little compared to my previous 950. Also, the new 950 hissed significantly less than the prototype I had a month or so ago. Where I could hear hiss about 5 feet from my horms with my previous 950, now I can hear the same level of hiss from something less than a foot. Relatively speaking, the hiss is about 3db more than the residual noise of my power amps alone, and they are very quiet. VERY IMPRESSIVE!!!

Will _you_ hear hiss? Most likely not anywhere near as much as the previous 950. The net "real world" decrease in hiss over even the prototype I auditioned is impressive. I think you will be very satisfied.

I have been asked by Outlaw to provide a brief explanation on how to set up the new 950 in those systems that experienced hiss, in order to take best advantage of the decrease in hiss and added gain in the new 950.

For those of you that have volume controls on your power amps, as I do: After you get the new 950 installed, check that all the trims are set at "0". Set the main volume control at "00". Set the mode for a 5.1 or 7.1 configuration depending on if you have back surrounds or not. Activate the quasi-pink noise generator in the "Channel Calib" menu. Using the RadioShack sound level meter, adjust the volume controls _on your power amps_ so that each channel reads 75db "C" on the meter.

If you have power amps without volume controls: Before you dis-connect your old 950, go into the "Channel Trim" menu and write down the trim level settings you have arrived at (hopefully by using a sound level meter ) for all your speakers. Subtrack 8db from this number and set the trims on the new 950 for the new number, i.e. if your previous trim level was "+8", then you would set the trim at "0", if your previous trim level was "+2", then the new level would be "-6", if the previous trim level was "-2", then the new number would be "-10" etc. Do this for all channels.

That's it. Hopefully, now we can put this whole issue to bed, and enjoy the show!


[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited December 20, 2002).]

I would contact Outlaw directly and get a replacement from the new revision.

Why not just dial the system back in at 75db at 00??


brianca..

[This message has been edited by brianca (edited December 19, 2002).]

Of course that can be done. I just wanted to give a foolproof and fast way to re-calibrate the new 950 without going through the trouble of a re-calibration with a sound level meter. You will find that if you do a re-calibration with a sound level meter the trims will have been reduced by 8db.



[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited December 19, 2002).]

WOW. This is fantastic! How can a new buyer be sure of getting this upgraded unit? Does it have a blue dot?

I've already asked how to return my unit for the fixed one, and am awaiting the reply to do so....?

Thanks Outlaw!!!



------------------
Take Care,
merc

[QUOTE]
What is the cost of a Coaxial cable filter and a Monster Power 5000 power conditioner?

Others have reported that they have a noticable hiss even without cable connections and the hiss didn't go away when they put a power conditioner on the line. But most of us don't have a super duper Monster 5000 power conditioner.
--------------------------------

Response:
The power conditioner cost me about $350 online. Admittedly, many Monster products are just fluff and marketing snake oil, but this is not about Monster.

EM interference and ground issues make an impact on noise. In my case the poor "Quality" of the electrical service and the impact of neighbors motors, and appliances probably contributed some part of the noise/hiss. Better power conditioners provide separation (filters) of the A/V component outlets to further reduce their induced noise on each other. The noise I experienced was NOT the low hum often associated with simple ground faults, but much higher (in the 4-10KHz range). I do not know what frequency range is officially designated as "hiss", but it did sound like a snake. And now, hopefully it's dead, and not just asleep.

The bottom line... There seems to be the potential for an "Audi 5000 type" paranoia concerning this 950 noise/hiss issue. People (my clients included) don't like to read about noise. They begin to hear their heartbeat, and intensely search for problems beyond all reasonable limits. EM interference and grounding issues may not be the cause of the perceived hiss for many (or even most) 950 owners, but it probably is worth a serious look. I suspect many others may be looking to find 'fault' with the 950, when the snake is under another rock.


[This message has been edited by AGAssarsson (edited December 20, 2002).]

In my experience, power line conditions have almost no influence on actual, static _hiss_ generated by a particular unit. This type of noise is a function of the noise generated by the various opamps and other audio and video stages within a component. Pops, buzzes etc. are what are manifested by most junk on the power line. In cases where 'hiss' can be attributed to the AC line, it always turns out to be RF interferrence which in most cases goes right through the power supply of most equipment through capacitive coupling in the power transformer. A power line filter such as the Monster, or "Isobar" by TrippLite will filter this out. These filters will also isolate components to filter out any inter-device coupling of high frequency noise. The level of RF interferrence has to be relatively high, such as when you live near a transmitter tower, or someone with a CB transmitter, for it to be heard through most equipment . Occasionally, such interferrence can be generated by appliances which use the AC line to transmit data, such as the X-10 modules, and units which transmit audio/video through the AC line. Also, some light dimmers can generate noise which contaminates the AC power, and is heard as a buzz through the system. The solution for this is to use autotransformer type light dimmers, as most AC line filters cannot filter this noise out.


[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited December 20, 2002).]

dear mr. hound,

for service far above and beyond the call of duty, i nominate you for the outlaw hall of fame (in my book, gonk is already a member and needs no such nomination).

though hiss is not an issue in my system, i'm sure this is great news for those in whose it is. thanks to outlaw for backing my claims about them as a company.

now...where's this big brother?

I second the nomination to Outlaw Hall of Fame!

I can't wait to get the "less hiss" fixed one!

---------------------------------------------
Thank you Mr. Soundhound...
After reading your commentary, it makes sense that RF interference would be the cause of the bulk of my minor hiss problem. The power conditioner also isolates components to filter out any inter-device coupling (I understand that some CD & DVD players can be a source of this). Anyway, in my case it had a very noticeable effect on sound quality.

Thanks again... Happy Holidays!

Bosso & Zak:

Gee, shucks guys! Thanks for the kind words!

Now how about a pitcher of margaritas to back up those kind words

I just received my new 950 today. How do I know if it is the no latest model?

My new 950 had no red or blue dots in the serial number as a clue. The serial number was prefixed by "02-" verses "01-" on my old 950, if that means anything.

I would simply listen to your 950. If it sounds quiet to you, then that is what counts. Of course, you might give Outlaw a call, and ask them about it.

Another clue would be to raise and lower the master volume control: on the new 950, the level of hiss will _obviously_ increase and decrease as you turn the knob full clockwise and full counter-clockwise.

If the unit is replacing a previous 950, the difference will be obvious in that the new 950 will be way louder for a given volume setting than the old 950, assuming the trims have not been re-calibrated on the new unit.

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited December 20, 2002).]

I had an older 950 before exchanging it for a red dot 950. The red dot 950 was quieter by about 4 db or so, when set to the same settings. So, what I did to compensate on the red dot was bump up the trim on every single channel. This worked for me since the maximum volume on the red dot didn't quite slam enough for me, otherwise.

There may be a different (less severe) volume/trim adjustment needed for an original 950 than for a red dot 950, if either is replaced by a SH hiss fixed version of the 950.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited December 20, 2002).]

I like! And, potentially just in time for Christmas for some of us...

AGA: filters, ground blockers, etc, made no difference on the hiss from the 950 in my system. I tried AC from my wall outlet, vs an Equitech balanced power unit (some of the best noise filtration you can get), and made no difference.

Helps with ground loop "buzz", but not hiss.

soundhound,
i forgot to ask...does the 'fix' change the sound characteristics of the 950 in any way, that you heard?

Bosso:

About the only change I can hear is one I also heard on the prototype: it sounds a bit more 'spatial', in that it seems to have a more open and 'big' soundfield. Tonally, it sounds very, very good. In stereo, I have a switch where I can directly A/B the 950/DVD combination (optical input to the 950) to a direct feed from the excellent DACs in my DVD player (bypassing the 950 entirely). I can hear absolutely no tonal difference in my system when doing this. Given the details of that was changed in the new 950, this makes sense.

I'd be very curious to the reactions of the others who get the new unit about sound changes.

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited December 21, 2002).]

Bosso:

About the only change I can hear is one I also heard on the prototype: it sounds a bit more 'spatial', in that it seems to have a more open and 'big' soundfield. Tonally, it sounds very, very good. In stereo, I have a switch where I can directly A/B the 950/DVD combination (optical input to the 950) to a direct feed from the excellent DACs in my DVD player. I can hear absolutely no tonal difference in my system when doing this. Given the details of that was changed in the new 950, this makes sense.

Soundhound,

When you visited me and heard my 950 you said it had that 950 "signature" sound which you recognized from your 950 at home. Do the new 950's have the same 950 sound "signature"?

Will:

I'd say less so, but I've done some pretty massive tweak-improvements in my system since I had the prototype and now. I didn't hear any obvious signature in the comparason in my above post. As always, YMMV.

Those seem pretty respectable and in line with the 'competition' numbers from the various test reports I've read.

Nice work Outlaw!

The earlier original 950 and the red dot 950 you heard here had, to me, similar sound signatures. However I also had an intermediate version of the 950, but only briefly. The intermediate 950 had much less of the aforementioned signature. And it hissed less too. It sounded different, but good. It also was less harsh, warmer than the other 950's. But at the end of the day, I ended up returning it since it sounded so different from both the earlier original 950 and the later red dot 950. I decided I didn't want to keep a specially-modified one-off 950. But it was a close call.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited December 21, 2002).]

I hate to take this slightly offtopic but...

soundhound...you mentioned the DAC's in your DVD player are better...I have the newer ELiTE DV-45A... how would the DAC's compare to the 950's? I guess I'll have to let my ears be the final judge but any opinions would make that "voice in my head" go away


------------------
Play it LoUd!!

[This message has been edited by SpOoNmAn (edited December 21, 2002).]

I said that the DACs in my Sony DVP 7000 were excellent, not better than the 950 The comparason between the player alone and the 950 didn't reveal any differences in sound. I haven't heard the Pioneer, nor many DVD-As or SACDs. I do however hear multi-channel masters of movie music soundtracks daily on my sytem, which is an editing and mastering studio.

Will:

Since I heard the prototype 950 and now, I have designed a new electronic crossover for my main L/R speakers. It's now a fourth order Linkwitz/Riley at 60Hz and 1,200Hz, verses the third order Butterworth I'd had for years. I also made the subwoofer crossover switchable between 12db and 24db per octave low pass. The main L/Rs do not have a high pass now. The change in crossover necessitated a whole slew of other changes (improvements) which were revealed by the better time alignment inherent in the Linkwitz/Riley crossover. While I was at it, I designed a regulated power supply for the filaments in my single-ended triode tube power amp, which powers the high frequency horns of the L/R speakers. This eliminated a slight buzz from the high frequency horns that wasn't audible from more than a foot or so away, but bothered me nonetheless: the buzz is gone now. The bottom line is that the sound of my system is a bit different now (and better), so comparasons of the 950 before I did the changes, and now are difficult.

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited December 21, 2002).]

Thanks for the clarification. Perhaps the improvements described above can be attributed to the details of what was changed in both the prototype 950 and the new one?


[This message has been edited by Will (edited December 21, 2002).]

Will:

This is what I posted in another thread:

The new 950 is the only revision (unless I'm mistaken) that uses entirely new op-amps in some key stages. The parts have been massively upgraded to ones generally used in pro-audio equipment. This will make a difference in the sound, for the better.

The presence of hiss does in certain instances give the impression of more 'high end'. This was a real problem in the days when Dolby noise reduction was first introduced to the recording industry. Many people thought the high frequencies sounded muffled, but in fact it was just the absence of tape hiss that gave the impression of less high frequencies.

I would be very curious to hear your impressions when you get your replacement 950.

Just a quick report from a two day old, first time Outlaw 950/755 owner. My 950 has absolutely no hiss that I can detect. I even have the problem child Klipsch Ref3s. I literally stuck my ear in the Klipsch horns with the 950 volume set to 0db and couldn't hear any hiss. I’m very impressed with the sound compared to my Denon 3801 that it replaced. I really would liked to have connected the 3801 to the 755 to compare just the pre/pro differences but didn’t have a chance before selling the Denon. My S/N starts with a 02 and doesn’t have any kind of dots in it.

I do have two major disappointments with the 950, both which I should have realized had I done my homework. First, the 950 does not auto switch between a digital and analog signal. I need this for my cable input where some channels are analog and others digital. The other thing I did not realize is that the preamp only has 5.1 inputs and not 7.1. I wanted to use my rears for DVD-A/SACD instead of the sides. My two generations behind Denon had both of these features. All and all I’m pretty happy but it makes me wonder how a Denon 3803 would sound hooked up to the 770.

Tom

Tom:

You might have a new 950 from the same generation mine is from. If you have the "problem" Klipsch speakers and cannot hear squat, hiss wise, I think things are looking good.

Obie- Make sure to check for hiss after the "global" mute has let go:

Play a DVD/CD doesn't matter. Then pause it, then listen for the hiss. Be aware that the newer 950's also might have a "active" mute for digital sources that kicks in 0.5 to 1.0 sec after you stop (or pause) a digital source.

No active mute on analog sources (even if they are A-to-D'ed and D-to-A'ed inside the 950).

Right-O - I'm so used to listening for hiss in the "analog DSP" mode, that I sometimes forget that the digital modes are quieter. For what it's worth, I didn't hear a huge difference in digital vs analog mode hiss on my new 950. Nowhere near as much difference as the old 950.

Kevin - I'd also be interested to hear your impressions of the new 950 when you get it.

Mr Hound,
At the risk of opening the proverbial can o'worms, would you think there's enough of a sonic improvement to warrant an exchange for an older 950 that doesn't hiss too much (I hear it about a foot away, no change with volume adjustment)?

I did exactly what you said above. I paused a DVD and then listened. I only have my DVD hooked into the digital input. What do you mean by global mute letting go? I guess I need to hook up the analog and do the same check. Do you know for a fact Outlaw auto mutes the digital inputs or is that just speculation? For those that had the hiss was it only on analog or digital too? Remember this is the 1st time I have had this gear.

Tom




[This message has been edited by obie_fl (edited December 22, 2002).]

You'll have to open that particular can of worms at the Outlaw Headquarters - give them a call.

I would say the difference in sound itself is not worth the change: the revision was mainly intended to reduce the hiss.



[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited December 22, 2002).]

Tom:

The 950 was always very quiet on digital inputs, it's just the analog input that was the problem, at least for me. YMMV.

You'll not only hear my impressions here, you'll be invited to hear it, here.

Obie-

When you 1st turn on the 950, *everything* is muted. Once you play the 1st source through the 950, the "global" mute disengages never to reappear again until you switch off the 950 and turn it back on again.

I know for a fact that on the *prototype* 950 I had for the hiss fix solution, that it does have an active mute. My older (I got it in Oct) 950 does not have that. But if you listen for it, it is apparent.

On my older 950, the hiss didn't depend on volume or digital or analog source. Was always there (except when globally muted).

So bottom line, is that if you don't have any hiss with either the global mute not active, or that "rider" active mute not active, than that's a good deal. I'd be surprised, especially since you have Klipsch speakers, but still a good deal. Maybe you did indeed get the very latest rev...

Oh, you don't even need an analog source hooked up to check an analog source. Just play a DVD/CD, and while playing it, switch the source to the analog input for that source (use the "digital" button at the bottom of the remote).


SH: me too!

Me Three!

Kevin - Thanks for all the backround info. I re-ran the hiss test using an analog source and yes at a 0db setting I can hear a very faint hiss but again I have to physically stick my ear in the horn to hear it. I believe your right in that the digital signal may be getting muted. I also stuck my SPL in the horn but the hiss was still under 50db and didn't register on the meter.

Tom

Obie- Now I'm really getting a hankerin' for the new one.

Might be here tomorrow. If true, I can only think of one line:

What a long, strange trip it's been!

Kevin: Do they tell you when it is on the way; or do they just say it will be on its' way to you shortly and then it shows up?

I got an Email asking me to call them.

Got that in an email this morning.

Anxiously awaiting my email for the replacement 950. One question in reading through this post. Is there a preference to setting the trim levels low and the volume high or higher trim levels with a lower volume setting to achieve calibration. I am asking this because I currently am calibrated at 75db SPL at 00db on the 950. However my trims are set at:
-8 LM
-6 C
-8 RM
-8 RS
+1RB
+2LB
-7LS
-1SW
Obviously there is not enough room to lower all of my trims by -8db. If I calibrate the 75db SPL at -10db my trims are set higher and the numbers above would probably be close to the calibration for the replacement 950 when set -8db less.

Question, what are the advantages/disadvantages in 00db and -10db calibration.

Scott

Scott:

Yep, you've got a bit of a problem there. First a little background: The new 950 has about 8db more output for the same setting on the volume knob than the old 950. One of my original recommendations to Outlaw was to compensate for this by re-calibrating the volume control so that "00" was actually 8db lower in level, so the net output would be the same as the old 950. The volume would have gone +18db above "00" instead of the current +10db. The hiss reduction would be preserved, and there would be additional headroom above "00" for those time when it's needed. Unfortunately, this would have necessitated a firmware re-write which would have delayed the release too much. Therefore that "re-calibration" needs to be done in the trims.

You must have either a power amp with a high sensitivity or speakers with very high sensitivity. I assume you don't have input volume controls on your power amps: if you do, stop here and calibrate for 75db as per my post earlier in this thread.

Now the nitty gritty - You won't have enough range on the trims to get the level low enough to get 75db with the main volume control at "00". Therefore I think the only course of action for you would be to do another re-calibration on your system when you get the new 950, but do it with the main volume control at minus 8db rather than at "00" Your "reference" setting on the new 950 would therefore be -08db rather than "00" - This is important in order to realize the reduction in hiss! I think you will find that after the re-calibration, your trims are about where they are now.

Remember to think: "-08" equals "00" - I know it's a bit inconvenient, but that is the best that can be done given the sensitivity of your amp/speaker combination.

PS: You can also use -10db on the main volume control as a reference if that is more convenient.

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited December 24, 2002).]

Thanks soundhound. I do have the highly sensitive Klispsh setup. See the first post in this thread. I am at 101db, 99db adn 98db in my mains center and surrounds. I will do as you suggested and use the -8db as a reference 00 point and see if the trims stay as they are.

I will post as soon as the new 950 arrives. Hopefully soon!

Thanks for all of the support and suggestions you have given in this post and throughout the BB.

Scott

I have one of the new units that came with the red dot fix. I finally checked for the hiss & at 0 volume I can hear a loud hiss from about 3 feet away. I am using Klipsch speakers (ref 20's in front, C7 center & S6 dipole sides) Hiss is coming from it sounds like the tweeter horn, did not take the grill off the mains. Using ATI 1505. Does it sound like I need to exchange mine?? With volume up I can't really hear the hiss.

The difference in the sound in the new and improved 950's compared to the earlier 950's is indeed, something to look forward to!

WIll:

The fix is mainly a remedy for the hiss - don't get too worked up over a change in the sound, it's not _that_ big of a difference. The difference in the level in hiss _IS_ a big deal however.

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited December 25, 2002).]

As you say, the sound difference probably won't be huge, except for there being less hiss. But as you also say, there should be some (perhaps slight) improvement in the sound for the better. And the new 950 has upgraded parts. And the measured S/N is improved.

While the hiss reduction is the main improvement, those other "incidental" improvements were probably made by Outlaw in order to get the hiss reduction.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to hearing it!

[This message has been edited by Will (edited December 26, 2002).]

To hiss or not to hiss, that is the question...

I got my new one. 02-0212... serial number batch.

Quick observations:

1) The hiss is much better. About 1/4 reduced from my "rev 2" unit (01-0208... s/n). My rear center: 4 ft to about 1 ft, the rest: 2 ft to about 6 inches. Still not as good as the Sony TA-E9000ES I had. Like SH mentioned before, less of a "hiss" too and more of a "shshshsh".

Another sub-data point. I just switched from 2 Acurus A200x3 amps (6.1) to 1 A200 plus 1 A200x5. The hiss from the 950 stayed exactly the same on my old unit. So at least it was consistent from Acurus amp to Acurus amp.

2) My hiss is still not volume dependent until I get to 00 to +10 dB. No change from say -77 to -5 dB. (Analog input.)

3) The quirk that my unit had, is not there in the new one. While playing a CD, switch DSP modes, my old 950 would lose the lock never to regain it unless I pause or stopped and restarted the DVD player. On the new one, works the way it is supposed. (Loses the lock for a sec or so, then comes back on its own.)

4) I did not reference levels, but I took into account the -8 dB difference between this one and the old one. But like I said, the hiss doesn't change with volume anyway.

5) With this one, I noticed a metallic smell coming out of the air vents on the top when I fired it up. Will have to see if any of the sound/hiss characteristics change once the smell goes away. (About 45 min since 1st turning it on, and it's still there.)

6) This 950 still loses signal on Pearl Jam's Riot Act, in between tracks 8 and 9, and about a min into track 8 when the music dies down, and then starts up again. Bummer. I had hoped that that would have been accidentally fixed... (Happened on Pioneer's 45a and 47ai players.)

7) Does have the "active" mute for at least CD sources. Not there for analog inputs.

So all in all, a keeper. I have to admit, I had higher expectations based on what SH and Obie said, but "bad boys bad boys, what you gonna do?"

My internal measure was: if say the hiss hadn't been improved from my old unit, I would have moved over/up to the B&K Ref 50 within 3 months. But with the latest 950, I will have the it in my system a nice, long time.

Kevin: Did Outlaw do anything to fix the 5.1 double bass problem/feature?

I doubt it, seeing as the signal lock issue hasn't been addressed, and Rotel hasn't even fixed it yet, and I know that Rotel owners are complaining more about this to Rotel than Outlaw owners are complaining about hiss to Outlaw, if that makes sense.

If I get a chance to test it, I'll let you know (I use the 80 Hz analog crossover anyway). Maybe SH or Obie could get to it before I do...

What's the signal lock issue?

Kevin:

The hiss does indeed get lower below "00" on the volume control and starts to level off to about -90db (full bandwidth) at an indicated volume of approximately -15db or so. If it were otherwise, no hiss reduction would be evident by reducing the main volume from "00" to "-08". The trims also will reduce hiss if lowered below "0". You are correct that the hiss does increase more obviously from "00" to "+10". The lack of hiss reduction below "00" you are hearing is undoubtedly the result of an interaction from your particular speaker/amp/room combination.

Did you hear any particular change in the sound of the new 950 compared to the old one?

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited December 29, 2002).]

dmeister- Read my #6 above.

SH, OK that makes sense. The new one *is* quieter than the prototype. On the prototype, it improved the "hiss at a distance" by 2/3's (on the front L & R channels, even hooked up through my rear center speaker) from my original unit. On the latest one, I get about a 3/4's improvement.

OK, so I have Klipsch speakers and a Parasound amp to go with my 950. I also have the hiss. When the issue came up in the forum, I let you know that I was able to greatly reduce the hiss by turning the gain pots on my amp down. Unfortunately, this meant playing the 950 at +10 with the trims set near 0, or raising the trims to +10 and running the main volume at about 00. This is a good thing in a way because it prevents my 4 and 5 year olds from turning it up too high. On the other hand, it doesn't allow headroom for material recorded at lower levels. Although my problem wasn't due to high efficiency speakers (my Klipschs are 90-92db efficient), Mike has told me the latest fix will stop the hiss I am getting. Mine was sent on the 27th via UPS ground, and will be here next week.

I just wanted to let you all know what a class act this company is. If you have ever owned a defective Sony or Denon product, you will really appreciate the way this company supports its customers and backs their product.

I agree. I stopped buying Sony products about 3 years ago because of their sh*tty customer service.

The *price* of the 950 might be only $899, but the customer service that Outlaw puts forth is indicative of a price much higher than that (if that makes sense).

I agree. I stopped buying Sony products about 3 years ago because of their sh*tty customer service.
The *price* of the 950 might be only $899, but the customer service that Outlaw puts forth is indicative of a price much higher than that (if that makes sense).

"if that makes sense" - I have no sense I keep handing them (Sony) wads of cash. KNOWING that I was going to have problems with some of these purchases and NO customer support. So I rarely post any of my scale-rated satisfaction over that badge. I feel they don’t earn it, deserve it, or fight to keep it. In other words I reciprocate, giving them as little attention as they give me after the purchase.

I don’t think I ever posted in-house. Outlaw sends medical supplies when needed, what a company!

I informed Outlaw via email about the hissing I get with my system and got a scripted email. What exactly is Outlaw doing for the people with hissing problems?

I don't know how it works Zak, I called them before my 30 days was up, and they put me on a list. That was a few months ago.

Fellow Outlaws,

I have received one of the "new-new" hiss-fixed units, and I am very satisfied with the level of quiet "in my system."

In summary, it is everything I had hoped the original 950 would be. Crisp, clean and hiss only audible from right next to the speaker. This compares with audible hiss from 10 feet away (!) with my original 950.

I've been listening to and enjoying the new 950 for a few days and just calibrated it today. Outlaw promised me they would not give up on me, and they kept their word. Pretty decent of them

Now if the Outlaws could just send someone out to my house to help me set up the bass management once and for all I spent 2 hours today with a sound meter and Avia DVD test tones trying to get the transition from subwoofer to mains perfect, phase right etc. In the end, there were peaks and valleys no matter what settings I chose. Phase, sub volume, variable crossover points, large vs small mains, bleach! So I just tried to minimize the variance. There must be a better way to do this.

-HTLearner

HTL- That's what a parametric eq is for.

(Smoothes the room-induced peaks in a sub's reponse. Behringer, Rane, Symetrix all make 'em. I have a Behringer DSP1124p. Really cheap, and really flexible.)

Phase is easy. I've found using a discrete test tone disc is the easiest way. www.stryke.com

Set up all the BM the way it should be. Then play tones at or near the crossover freq. Adjust your sub's phase adjustment (when a switch, or a knob) until the output is the loudest at your listening position.

I've tried the Avia test signals for phase, and I still believe that discrete test tones are easier to use (with a sound level meter of course).

I don't have the e-mail with me at work right now, but I received an e-mail late last week that I suspect either went or is going to all 950 owners, regardless of whether they have complained of hiss or not (assumption based on the fact that I received the e-mail but never reported a hiss problem, although I did get a test unit from the "red dot" revision). Outlaw is giving all 950 owners who have a hiss problem the option of returning their unit for modification (which will leave you pre/pro-less for a time) or receiving a replacement unit (which will be a "refurb" unit, I believe) and then returning your current unit. Is that the scripted e-mail you received, or did you get the automated "we have received your message and will get back to you shortly" message (which is automaatically sent any time you send a message to the info@outlawaudio.com address)? If you didn't get that message, I would expect that you will get it or a direct response from Scott or Mike saying the same thing soon. Either way, it sounds like they plan to get the replacements shipped out by mid-January; I would expect it to take longer for units shipped in for modification.

------------------
gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

I am one of the "silent" minority that has a hiss problem. I reported it and was asked to send in more information. Today, I got an e-mail confirming that a "blue-dot" 950 is on it's way to my place via FEDEX and I am to return my old one with the supplied, pre-paid shipping label. Customer support has been great!

Somehow, I just don't see even a company like Rotel *swapping* out units, and then even letting the customer have 2 units in his/her possession without taking the 1st back in return 1st. Hee, hee. Seriously, that's a lot of capital cost the Outlaws are eating (short term) to make its customers happy.

I had a "red dot" unit with hiss problem. I had the unit for over 30 days and they gave me option of keeping until a fix was developed or returning for a refund. I returned for refund with no problems. I'm currently back to using my Yamaha receiver. Outlaw has been an OUTSTANDING company and I will not have any reservations about purchasing any of their products. I'm tempted to try the latest fixed version....nothing else on the market that can match the 950 for price.

Forgive me, but how do you tell if you have a new-new non-hiss 950?

My 950's serial number is 020300... (there's no xx-xxx... anywhere).

Rather than hissing, it seems to just have a pretty bad S/N Ratio, nowhere near the 100dB ratio listed in the book.

It seems like the noise generated is a few (maybe 3-5) dbs louder than the Sony 333-ES receiver (powered by the same amps) that the unit is replacing (which I believe had ~97dB S/N Ratio).

I sit about 3 feet from my surrounds, and it's definately noticable during quiet sequences. I guess I'm just not sure if this noise is acceptable or not?

I'm using 2 3-channel Earthquake Cinenova Grande amplifiers (which each are rated 113 dBs S/N and are QUIET when the 950 is switched off) powering Paradigm Reference speakers.

The noise, or hiss, definately gets louder when the volume is increased. I've calibrated my trims to output the internal tones at 75 dbs SPL with the volume at 00, and when I crank the volume to 00db, the noise is VERY loud, even from the other room.

And, sorry if I'm being obtuse here Soundhound, but what's the point of calibrating your system to output 75dBs at 00? You wind up just increasing your listening volume and therefore increasing the noise...

It seems there is definately something amiss somewhere in your system! You might call Outlaw to confirm that you have a newer unit, but based on the serial number, I think you do.

First of all, the point of calibration to 75db is so that when the volume control is set at "00", you will be playing back DVD movies at the same level as they were originally mixed at in the dubbing theatre. If you have done this correctly, movies and CDs will be playing back very loud at "00".

You don't give specifics on how you calibrated your levels. Did you do the calibration with the sound level meter at your normal listening position? Was the meter set to "slow" response, and "C" weighting? Is your meter in good shape, not being dropped or some other damage?

The new 950 has about 8db more gain for the same setting on the volume control setting verses the old 950. The whole point is that you can set the volume control 8db lower for the same loudness, and correspondingly reduce the hiss by at least 8db because the volume of the hiss lowers as the volume knob is turned down. There were other improvements also, including the upgrading of some of the analog ICs to ones spec'd for lower noise. If you don't take into consideration this 8db difference and lower the volume control correspondingly, the new 950 will SEEM to have almost as much hiss as the old one. If you properly calibrate your levels and take advantage of this 8db of essentially "free" gain, the new 950 will hiss a lot less than the older one.

Do your power amps have input volume controls?

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited January 01, 2003).]

It seems there is definately something amiss somewhere in your system! You might call Outlaw to confirm that you have a newer unit, but based on the serial number, I think you do.

First of all, the point of calibration to 75db is so that when the volume control is set at "00", you will be playing back DVD movies at the same level as they were originally mixed at in the dubbing theatre. If you have done this correctly, movies and CDs will be playing back damn loud at "00".

You don't give specifics on how you calibrated your levels. The new 950 has about 8db more gain for the same setting on the volume control setting verses the old 950. The whole point is that you can set the volume control 8db lower for the same loudness, and correspondingly reduce the hiss by at least 8db because the volume of the hiss lowers as the volume knob is turned down. There were other improvements also, including the upgrading of some of the analog ICs to ones spec'd for lower noise. If you don't take into consideration this 8db difference and lower the volume control correspondingly, the new 950 will SEEM to have almost as much hiss as the old one. If you properly calibrate your levels and take advantage of this 8db of essentially "free" gain, the new 950 will hiss a lot less than the older one.

Do your power amps have input volume controls?

It's possible you don't have a newer unit. When did you buy it?

Thanks for your help. By the way, I take my earlier statement about the hiss being very pronounced at 00 back, I was testing it on an input that had nothing connected to it, and there must have been interference or something. I paused a dvd and raised the volume to 00, and the hiss didn't seem to raise noticably.

Now, back to your questions:

Yes, I've calibrated my system with a radio shack analog SPL meter, which is in good working condition, C weighted and Slow.

I did calbirate my system to output the test tones at 75dBs w/ the volume at 00. I did this exactly the way you described earlier, by turning down the trim -8 on each channel. Worked like a charm.

No, my amps do not have volume controls on them.

I guess my question is, I don't see how this is "free" gain. Since I reduced the trims -8, I have to turn the volume up 8dbs, which in turn raises the noise level. That's all.

I bought my unit from someone I trust who beta tested the unit. He told me it was the 4th version of the 950. I believe him, but I just wanted to know if that is the newest of the new 950s.

Thanks!

[This message has been edited by jgubman (edited January 01, 2003).]

jgubman,

Gonk, who frequently posts here, had three 950's, each with S/N's like yours (020300... with no dash). I believe Gonk said his three were manufactured before the red dot fix was put into production. If yours is of the same generation, you perhaps don't have the latest SH Hiss fixed 950. But there may be other factors at play besides the original serial number.

Good luck!

Will

[This message has been edited by Will (edited January 01, 2003).]

Yes, it sounds like you may not have the latest issue of the 950. If you bought it from someone else, there's almost no way it could be the newest one, as they only came out a couple weeks ago. I'd call Outlaw and sort it out.

The gain is "free" in the sense that it was accomplished without an increase in noise. Usually, the higher the gain, the higher the noise. They got around this by using quieter IC Op Amps in the analog gain stages.

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited January 01, 2003).]

I contacted Outlaw with my serial #, and Scott told me he'd put me on the list for a replacement, so I guess I didn't have the latest rev. of the 950.

Also, turns out the hiss in my unit does NOT increase or decrease w/ the volume (even above 00db).

Thanks to everybody for your help!

And, for what it's worth, I don't think the current level of "hiss" on my 950 is unacceptable or anything. I definately DON'T think it matches the specs in the manual (which indicate a S/N Ratio of 100dB on the digital inputs), but it's not that bad.

My first DD receiver (granted it was ~$500) had (if memory serves) similar "hiss".

my older DD reciever (a kenwood vr-209) is dead silent in any mode with the volume turned up all the way....

my center chanel is an infinity cc-3, fairly sensitive, my others are Magnepan's for the front and Jamo 200's for the rears both of which are in the 80's (88db for jamo and probably less for the maggie's) for sensitivity......


I'm lurking around here because I'm trying to convince my wife that we NEED a 950 with 2 of the new monoblocks and the 750 ...my thoughts are to put the mono's on the maggies large feet and use as short a speaker wire as is possible... then run the surrounds off the 5 channel......

For those with 'version 3', I've found the LFE/Subwoofer output is about 8db lower than either my original or red-dot unit. Once I calibrated the sub with the new unit, I believe the bass response is smoother, tighter.

Soundhound, Kevin C. Brown...have either of you (or others with the lastest rev) noticed this?

I've got about 100 hours on the new unit, and so far I'm liking it very much, the S/N is substantially better than my red-dot unit. This one is a keeper!

Brett

bbarden- I don't think I saw that. And I just went through this again with:

1) 950's internal tones
2) Avia digitally to the 950
3) Avia through the 5.1 analog inputs
4) Chesky Ultimate DVD-A test disc through the 5.1 analog inputs

(Confirmed that for whataver reason, DVD-A/SACD LFE level is 10 dB lower, and hence you have to account for that in the player's analog output, compared to DD/DTS. A "standards" problem maybe.)


SH? Will? Obie?

My 45a does not exhibit the -10db LFE characteristic. In fact, I run -6db on Sub and +6 on all others to reduce the LFE output. My 45a has a white dot next to the LFE output, I think this version has the bass boosted +10db.

I can't say as I don't use the LFE output, nor bass management in the traditional sense. The LFE should be relatively quiet anyway as it is low pass filtered. I don't use the 5.1 inputs either for SACD or DVD-A : I use them for my mixing console which doesn't have referenced levels, so I can't tell one way or the other. Sorry!!

bbarden- How did you set your LFE level?

Avia won't work as it is a DD disc. You have to use something like:

http://www.chesky.com/catalog/body_catalogdtl.cfm?PRODUCT=100274&CATEGORY=2

The test tone on the 45a for the sub won't work either.

Here's a thread at HTF with more info:

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htforum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=115080

Kevin, can you tell me what test stuff is on that Chesky disc? My emails to chesky for that info have gone unanswered.

soundhound, just out of curiosity, what is the non-traditional bassmanagement that you use?

I don't use it at all. I have tri-amped front speakers crossed over with an electronic crossover at 1200Hz (4th order Linkwitz Riley) and at 60Hz (2nd order Butterworth low pass only to the subs). The LFE gets mixed in with the main left and right feeds by selecting "no subwoofer" in the 950. I use four 18" subs, two per side, in stereo.

I use this setup because my system has several signal paths, one being through a mixing console, and I need the use of the subs on everything. I like stereo subs because there is low frequency content on things like pipe organ recordings, and the general low frequency 'ambience' in the recording site that I would rather have mix acoustically in my room, and not electronically to mono. Case in point: spaced omnidirectional mikes in large recording venues - low frequency sources to one side reach the near side mike before the far side mike. The delay could be the better part of a wavelength at say, 30Hz.



[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited January 05, 2003).]

Soundhound- One question:

I too have Klipsch speakers and have the hiss issue. I currently have the mid-June modification 950 that is "slightly" (1-2 dB) quieter than my original mid-May unit. I had a "Red Dot" that, while quieter from about -15 to +10, actually had more hiss (the non-volume dependant variety) from -15 on down. That has been my issue. Virtually all of my listening is done with the volume control between -15 and -35. Changing trim levels does not effect this "noise floor". From your early posts on this thread it sounds like this "noise floor" is now volume dependant. On my current unit the hiss IS volume dependant from about -15 on up to +10, but not below that. Is the hiss level on the new unit actually volume dependant in the range of -15 on down? By the way, I believe I calibrated my trims with the volume at -15 and to 70dB on the meter (easier to read 70dB on the meter than 75dB from across the room). This should give me the same results as calibrating to 75dB with the volume control set to -10. My trims are 0 for both mains, +1 for the center, +4 for right surround, +5 for left surround, and +5 for sub. Of course the sub level is arbitrary since it has it's own level control. Using the "Get Over It" track from the Eagles Hell Freezes Over DVD, I get an AVERAGE SPL at my seat of 95 dB with the volume set to -15. That is LOUD! I know your speakers are even more efficient than mine, so I know that you understand the importance of the hiss level at lower volume settings. If the hiss is not volume control dependant in this range, I assume that having trim level effect hiss level, and the 4 dB "real" improvement would be worthwhile by themselves. Do you think there actually is a 12 dB "effective" reduction in the -15 to -35 range (or on the new unit, this would be roughly -23 to -43 if calibrated the same)? If so, that would be HUGE! I guess, put another way, I listen at average SPL's at my seat generally between 75 dB and 95 dB. Do you think I should see 12 dB of diffence at my seat?

Thanks for your insight, and yes, I concur, I believe you should be in the Outlaw "Hall of Fame" along with Gonk, and I believe Miss Lena should be "Entertainer of the Year".

- Skyfish

[This message has been edited by Skyfish (edited January 05, 2003).]

Skyfish:

The hiss is volume control dependent from the top +10 on down to about -15 or so, at which point the noise from the 950 itself measures about -90db (an absolute measurement - not signal to noise ratio), which is very quiet. The trims also effect noise, but throughout their whole range: they don't plateu off at the lowest setting. The 950 now has about 8db more gain too.

All this does add up to a 10-12db or so subjective reduction in hiss. On my own horns, I could hear hiss from 5 feet away, and now that same level of hiss is somewhat less than a foot away. Pretty blasted good.

As I posted earlier in this thread, to get the benefit of this noise reduction however, you must re-calibrate your system to take into account the 8db of extra gain, which essentially 'turns down your volume control', which lowers hiss which is now volume control dependent.

I don't know about how your calibration with the volume control at -15 and using 70db as a reference would work, given your speakers. I would recommend using the conventional "00" setting on the volume control and 75db, and lowering the trims to get the proper level. You will find that they will end up about 8db lower than before, which is essentially turning the volume, and noise down by that amount.

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited January 05, 2003).]

I will let you all know tomorrow, after my replacement comes, what happens in my system.

Mine comes Tuesday so I definitely will comment on this post since I instigated the whole thing 6 pages back.

Scott

Ellen- The Chesky disc is really useful. 1st, it has 9 music selections in DVD-V and DVD-A format. (Stereo and multichannel.) You can set levels, DVD-V and DVD-A. Also, phase check between all speakers, and phase checks to the sub, again, all DVD-V and DVD-A. There are also "impulse" type tests, used to make sure all the delays to your speakers are correct. And this I thought was really unique: it has a low freq pan through all the mains. The idea is that if your BM is functioning correctly, even though the low freq pan is *only* through the mains, the output to the sub should remain constant. (There is a little beep as each pan "centers" on each main speaker.)

I had always used Avia as my bible for audio setup, but the Chesky disc gives it a run for the money IMO. (No video setup stuff on Chesky though.)

Kevin, I've been using Avia and a Denon setup DVD-A, though it has some rather odd tones/sweeps I'm not sure what to do with, and there are absolutely no instructions included, the sub phase test is not conclusive in my system...I"ve ordered the Chesky disc, thanks.

Thanks Soundhound.

I just tried an experiment. I recalibrated as you suggested with the volume control at 0, and indeed, the trim levels DO effect the hiss level with the volume set that high. With the volume control set at 0, to calibrate to 75dB, I have the trims for my front channels at -10. This gives me more hiss than before. If I have the volume control at 0 and calibrate to 70dB, I have the trims set to -15, and the net effect is that this hiss level is exactly the same as when I have the volume control set to -15 and the trims at 0. So if I have the volume control at 0 and the trims at -15, or the other way around, the effect is the same. To me this makes sense. The volume control and the trim levels are adjusting the same thing. With the new 950's gain 8dB greater, I don't think I COULD calibrate with the volume control at 0. I'd have to be able to dial the trims down to -18 just to get to 75dB. At any rate, I don't think it matters. I think the only reason to calibrate with the volume control set to 0 is so that you achieve "Dolby Reference level" or "THX Reference level" or whatever with the volume control set to 0. I don't care if I get that level with the volume control set to 0 or -10 or -15. The combination of the 950 and 750 amp has WAY more gain than I ever use no matter how I would set it up. If I were running "Maggies", it would be a different matter. Gain might be an issue, hiss probably not.

None the less, it sounds like you got a very significant absolute reduction in hiss with the new one. If I could get just a 50% reduction, I would be tickled pink. I think I will put in a request. I didn't want to ask Outlaw to send me another one unless I was very sure the new one would make a significant difference in my system. As several others discovered, I found the "Red Dot" one to actually be "hissier" at normal volume levels than what I have now.

Thanks again.

Skyfish:

The difference in hiss with the new 950 will be way more dramatic as the volume control is lowered, than on the old one. My only concern with calibrating lower than "00" would be inter-channel volume non-linearities in the volume control circuit as the volume is reduced too much. This may or may not be an issue however in the real world.

I think you will be a very happy camper with the new unit - the hiss will be _that_ much lower

Great news! As regards non-linearities in the volume control, when I recalibrated with the volume at 0, my speaker trims remained the same relative to each other as when I had previously calibrated at -15, so at least on my current 950, the volume control seems to remain accurate between channels at different levels.

I'll let you know how it works out. I'd kind of like to send mine in for the upgrade, as it is in mint condition, cosmetically and otherwise, but then I'd lose the ability to do a direct A-B comparison, and that I REALLY want to do.

I have a new 950 on the way! I am very excited to try it out, as my current one has audible hiss at 10 ft.

Ok, I now have the blue dot 950. Set up and calibrated (with my amp gain pots turned all the way up, as recommended by Parasound) the 950 and popped in a familiar CD. First thing I notice is that it sounds "honky" or "nasal". It sounds totally different than my first 950.

By the way, this 950 has nearly the same serial # as my original, but has a blue dot on it. My original is a "red dot" version, but has no dot on it.

I play a cd fairly loud, then turn on the tv and leave the room for a few hours. I come back and restart the CD. Wow! Now it sounds as sweet as the original did! So much for breaking in! I wonder if it will continue to improve over the next week or month. All "honkyness" is gone. Smooth and sweet.

So now I listen for hiss. I change from DVD (digital) to CD (analog) to TV (analog). The hiss when listening to a blank (no sound) format is gone. When listening to quiet passages on CD, the hiss is gone, allowing me to hear nuances that I could not hear before. When I first got my 950, I said it was the first time I ever used the words "detailed and revealing". This new 950 is even more so with the lack of hiss.

What more can I say. I was very happy with the 950, now I am ecstatic. My hiss is gone, and the amp is running the way it is supposed to, full out!

One last thing, when I calibrated, I gained 26db, not 8. The reason I did is because I had my amp turned way down to eliminate the hiss. When I turned it up, I gained the additional headroom.

Thanks Outlaws!

If you used the analog outs (DVD player internal decoder) on a DD it would still work, yes?

willscary:

Having volume control pots on your power amps, you might try calibrating your system by having the trims on the 950 at "0" and main volume at "00", and use the volume pots on the power amps to get 75db. I know what parasound says, but it is preferrable to calibrate this way. Don't worry about the amps not being "full out" as this is a misconception: it's the drive voltage coming into them that determines the power coming out. You would be driving the 950 a bit harder. In my experience with the particular analog IC they used in the output of the 950, it likes to be driven, and might sound better in your system for it.

Try it out.

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited January 06, 2003).]

Soundhound,

I'm confused. Is it better to drive the 950 hard, or to drive it less? Doesn't the new 950 hiss more when it is driven? I think it was posted before that the new 950's hiss in a quiet room is extremely noticable when the volume knob on is at +10 and gradually gets less noticable until the volume knob gets to about -15.

Will

[This message has been edited by Will (edited January 06, 2003).]

Will:

I was talking about a different issue in the above post: it has nothing to do with hiss, as long as the calibration procedure is adhered to. If you have input volume controls on your power amps, you can try the above, and see if you like the sound better or not. In my experience, it does sound better, and the power amp is a preferrable place to do the level control for calibration.

Hi Soundhound,

The only reason I mention this is you posted that you try to listen to your new 950 with its volume under -15 and that when the volume setting is above -15 the hiss level goes up noticably as the volume increases.

Will

[This message has been edited by Will (edited January 06, 2003).]

Will:

You must have me confused with someone else - I never said I listen with the volume anywhere in particular. I listen wherever it is appropriate, usually between -20 to 00, and occasionally a bit above that.

If there was a signal it would also be more *ahem* noticable. It's all relative. Turning down the amps will turn down the noise as well. This is where the old 950 was messed up - the noise was invariant.

Soundhound:

You're right. You posted as follows

but you did not post you only listen below -15. My mistake. You are correct.

Will


[This message has been edited by Will (edited January 06, 2003).]

Charlie:

I seem to be creating more confusion than it's worth I was only saying that I find it preferrable to drive a source component a bit harder, and therefore have more output coming from the outputs of the 950 and level match at the power amp. This comes from personal experience that most op-amps sound better when passing a higher signal level than less, relatively speaking. The hiss would be the same, regardless - it doesn't matter really where the gain is comensated for. In my situation, I have a standard line level for digital full scale for CDs of +15dbu, or about 4.5 volts going to the crossovers, and match the levels at the power amps.

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited January 06, 2003).]

Charlie- That's what I initially thought too, but nope. Maybe this makes it a little clearer:

Sp..LF...C....RF...RS...LS...sub
a)..-1..+1...-1....+1...+0...-3..=> Avia via coax digital; 950 levels
c)..-1..-1..-1.5..-1.5...-3...+6..=> Chesky DVD-A via 5.1 analog; 47ai settings

(Hopefully this lines up for most people.) So in this case, you can easily see the extra 10 dB for SACD/DVD-A... If I would now try to set *analog* levels with Avia DVD-V (DD) with the settings in c, the sub's level would be way too high. The DD decoders, whether in the 950 or in the 47ai, internally add 10 dB boost to the LFE level. Something like that anyway.


[This message has been edited by Kevin C Brown (edited January 06, 2003).]

I guess I skipped a step - I thought you were still talking phase differences, not levels. Too many threads.

I like how they changed this thread from "To hiss or not to hiss" to "Problem Solved".

------------------
THIS SPACE FOR RENT!

Okay... without going back and reading everything in this thread, let's see if I have this right?

The new blue dot 950 is now very quiet AND still sounds very transparent? Is there any hiss now hearable at all?

How about the 5.1 analog input? Did they disable the always on BM, or does the unit still exhibit some double bass with the speakers all set to large and the sub on while switching the back BM switch to off?

Well, to paraphrase soundhound, on his very sensitive setup the hiss went from 6' to < 1' if I understood correctly. This seems to be typical and is IMO more the sort of performance to expect. This is all second or more hand though, so if you really want the scoop I'd look back a few pages and get the live reports.

Charlie's summary does seem consistent with what I have read and what I experienced last night when I connected my new Blue Dot revision. I also experienced sort of a muffled, nasal sound for the first hours of play that seemed to have gone away. My hiss went from 10' at listening positon to 1'. Not bad. As the volume is turned up towards reference the hiss does grow maybe to about 3' or 4'. Still better than the consistent hiss at 10'.

I will post my specs and comments after further testing tonight.

Scott

Good to see you again Merc. Go back and read my post. Mine had hiss before, to the point where I turned my amps down to about 3/4 gain to compensate. Now the amps are all the way up and hiss is nonexistant at loud listening levels, even when within about 6 inches of the tweeter during quiet passages. I have only had it for 2 days, and it is still smoothing out (as I said in the earlier post, I never really thought electronics needed to "break in", but now I have changed my mind). It is very transparent. More
so with the new "blue Dot" because the hiss is gone.
Soundhound must have opened his up because he says the new parts are considerably more "heavy duty" and likens them to parts you find in pro equipment. All I know is that the fix worked for me, and I don't believe my problem was based on speaker efficiency. If anything, my amp may not have been a good match.

The hiss in my system at normal listening levels was reduced by 3/4's. (Out of my worst speaker, went from audible at 4 ft to 1 ft.)

Merc- I saw somewhere you got a Ref 50? Still deciding between the 2? Or did you punt on the 950?

I have a new 950 discovered on my front porch late last night! How exciting. Unfortunatly, I have a heavy paper load and am tied to my computer till its done. Won't get to even unpack the new 950 for days to run it thorough paces. Well at least I have something 'fun' to look forward too!

Guys, what's the scoop on the blue dot with regard to getting 5.1 full range without bass doubling on the 5.1 analog passthrough? Did Outlaw change the 5.1 analog passthrough to be true passthrough for all 6(5.1) channels?

Kevin: I currently have 3 pre/pros in my house... one currently being an unopened, in box, blue dot 950. Should I open it?

Life is full of tough choices...

Merc- 3 pre/pros... I do doubt the double bass problem was fixed. But remember, doesn't exist if you use the 80 Hz analog crossover on the 5.1 inputs. (You could try to email Scott directly to find out I bet.)

Well, I *do* still have my old Sony TA-E9000es too...

Well I have setup my new blue dot rev and must say, job well done. I am even more pleased with it now. Some points I have noticed:

Recalibrated to 75db at a volume setting of -8db per soundhound's suggestion due to the sensitivity of my Klipsh speakers. 101 db mains, 99 center, 98 side and rear surrounds. My original 950 trims were calibrated for 75db with a 00db volume setting. Here is the comparison.

blue dot
LF -10, C -8, RF -10, RS -5, LS -4, SW -12
original
LF -8, C -6, RF -8, RS -8, LS -7, SW-13

As you can see the "free" 8db of gain on my system acutally is about 10db considering I calibrated at -8db and the trims are about 2db less than the original trim.

This results in a much quieter and as some have said revealing 950. My hiss has gome from 10 ft to around 1 ft at volume levels between -34db and around -18db or so. As I approach the reference level, in my case -8db, the hiss does seem to get louder, but only to the point where it is about 2 feet out or so, still an 80% reduction. Wow! Both of these hiss levels are quite comparable to my original Yamaha 2095.

One thing I have noticed is that while everything is calibrated the same, the overall "loudness" of my system at any given volume seems about 8db louder. In other words the "free" gain seems to have both allowed me to calibrate at a lower volume setting while still giving the 950 some "apparent" increase in gain. Definitely double bang for your buck. This may be due in part that with the reduction in hiss, I am "hearing" more of the audio and it seems louder. I did notice I was able to change my +2 Treble setting to 0 and still hear the high end detail I was used to on the original 950. Again, maybe a result of the reduction in background hiss.

Overall, I am extremely pleased with the effor of The Outlaws to resolve this issue, the support from this bulletin board and mostly my new 950 Blue Dot revision.

Now my HT can be used for entertainment not a proving ground.......what a relief!

Good job everyone and thanks,
Scott

Let's hope that when the outlaws decide to design the 950's big brother they hire someone who knows how to design the pre/pro without these issues from the begining rather than hoping that someone happens to be reading the message boards that can tell them how to fix it.

Tons of praise for soundhound for stepping up and helping out with this issue, and equal praise to outlaw for listening.


brianca..



[This message has been edited by brianca (edited January 09, 2003).]

I received by blue dot unit yesterday for the hiss issue and I don't know what to think.

I swapped out the unit and calibrated normally - volume at 00, sound meter at 75 dB. I started the test tone and was expecting to have to trim back due to this new "extra" gain over previous versions. My meter went off the scale and I trimmed each channel in sequence to get them to 75 dB. Then after I made it once around, the volume was lower. After having trimmed things to -8 or -11, now the meter was reading low. I trimmed them back up to reach 75dB, and they all we within a few dB dB or 0, + or -. Then I realized I had somehow lowered the master volume to -7 from 0. So I bumped that back up to 0 and recal'd, but after I did that, the trims were not really any lower. That really confused me. Did something blow in my unit and cause my gain to drop or...?

Besides my apparent lack of gain that everyone else is getting on their blue dot, I also don't know if I like the new one. For a digital input, the hiss is less, but they put that mute circuit in, so it is hard to assess. But I also don't like hearing that mute click/pop whenever there is no digital input. When trimming channels, pausing a DVD, FF or RW'ing a DVD, the mute does its thing with a annoying, but not dangerous, popping/clicking sound. With the mute engaged, obviously the hiss is almost nil. But even when I listen quickly prior to the mute engaging, it sounds like less hiss than before.

I am also concerned about gain for digital inputs. I couldn't try it out last night, but I need to see how loud movies are at -10 or 0 and compare to what I had before. If my apparent gain went down, that would be very surprising.

Now on to analog inputs. No muting circuit for these, and yes, the hiss is very volume dependent. At -10 and below, the hiss is definitely better than before. Once you get to a volume of 0, the hiss is getting noticeable. From 0 to +10, the hiss gets LOUD, plus I get some hum and crosstalk from other inputs. This could be due to extra gain on these analog inputs, but I watched a TV show via the analog VCR input, and I wasn't aware that I had to run the volume any lower than normal. If I ever had to turn teh volume up above 0 for an analog input, the hiss/hum is definitely unacceptable.

So, unlike all other blue-dotters, I guess I am the odd man out with less than stellar opinions of the fix. The mute circuit is an annoying band-aid and masks any improvement or not. Analog seems quieter at modest levels, much worse at loud volumes.

Does anyone else have these issues? Any comments/suggestions. I will have time to do more evaluating this weekend.

Thanks.

Applejelly:

Try a re-calibration again, carefully. The range of the volume control above "00" will get almost zero use if things are calibrated right.

AJ- You might want to talk to the Outlaws. I can't hear the digital mute engage at all. It is there in the new 950s, and I'm not so happy about it either (seems like an attempt to "hide" something in my opinion, but the hiss *is* lower), but I guess some other pre/pros have it too (even though my Sony didn't)...

I have the exact same situation. There are volumes where the hiss is louder than before in a absolute sense, but maybe the gain is higher too.

And there is a definite hum in mine as well that at louder volumes overwhelms the hiss. Please let me know if calibration solves your hiss/hum problems.

I have not calibrated mine and maybe that would solve my problems, too.

Will:

The gain IS higher, by 8db, at alll volume control settings. Why not do a calibration, it's certainly easy enough to do.

The hiss and loud hum is there with my 950 set to stereo, not just multichannel. I listen to stereo mostly, except when playing DVD's of course.

I know I should get it calibrated, even for stereo. I will but haven't gotten around to doing it yet. I'm not sure it will affect things dramatically, but I won't know until I try it.

As it is though, I listen typically with the volume from -15 to 00 but sometimes it goes up to +05 or even slightly above. All trims except for the base are set nominally close to (but not exactly to) zero. It sounds fine. Except with no source playing and the volume loud, there is a hiss and as the volume inches up, an even louder hum.

Does it hiss/hum as loudly if you switch to an analog input that has nothing plugged into it? Could always be the source component that's humming or a bad interconnect.

Forgot to mention my amp is a Sunfire Cinema Grand.

I am a bit confused on the new digital mute function. I too don't like to hear the pop/click when pausing a CD connected via an optical cable but I do not ever hear the click/pop when pausing a DVD connected through coax. I can acutally stop the DVD and test the hiss level because the mute never takes effect.

I get the same result when increasing volume. The hiss definitely becomes louder as you cross the 00 point, but with the added gain, I would never run it this loud. Also a 60 cycle hum does become noticeable above 00, but I just figure it is coming from the Acurus amps. This also happened with my yamaha receiver.

My two cents,
Scott

Actually it hums about the same (maybe even louder) when it is selected to an analog input that has nothing plugged in (I used the tape input).

Another datapoint is the hum is noticably louder if the DSP is switched from stereo to DTS NEO or DPL II. Even if I stand near my left front speaker, the room hums from ALL the speakers not just the 2 used with stereo.

This thing doesn't have a "hum" problem now, does it?!?

By the way, has anyone else noticed substandard home theater performance, as Scott G. has?

There's always the possibility of inductive coupling of hum from the power transformer in a nearby power amp or another component into the 950, or it's interconnects. The test for this would be to move the 950 a foot or more away from it's present position and see if the hum varies, moving the interconnects around too. It would make sense that switching to a matrix setting would increase the relative hum, since the signal is being sent to more of the speakers. Like I mentioned before, both in my installation, and looking at the noise floor on an ocilloscope, there is no hum present in the ouput of the 950s i've had.

Anyone who wants to hear the hum who lives in Los Angeles is welcome to visit me and can move the 950 around and vary the interconnects and try different experiments. Maybe there is a simple explanation to why mine hums when the volume is loud.

Will:

The moving around of the 950 is pretty easy to do; you could move it sideways to another shelf, or to the top of your TV to see if anything changes. The hum has to be coming from _somewhere_,it is just a matter of eliminating as many possibilities as you can by unplugging things, seeing if it makes a difference, then proceeding to another input. If the hum bothers you enough, it's really worth trying to find the source. I have a persistent but very low level hum in my system I've been trying to track down for weeks, months. I know it's coming from the crossover and power amp section, not from anything upstream. I've taken the crossover apart, measured and looked at the power supply rails on an ocilloscope - nothing. I've built a DC regulated power supply for the filiments of the vacuum tubes in the single ended triode amp - gets rid of a slight buzz I had in the tweeter horns but no effect on the basic low level hum. I've encased some elements of the filters in the electronic crossover with layers of "co-netic" magnetic shielding foil - again, helps lower the hum, but it's still there to some extent. This kind of stuff can drive a person nuts, so I know how you feel!

Will- Did you ever try to attach a ground wire to the 950's chassis?

I also get a hum from my 950, but I can only hear it if I put my ear up against the speaker at any normal listening volume. (Don't use much DSP except for the CES modes watching movies...) My 1st 950 also hummed, but I didn't recognize it until I got the 2nd one, because the hiss in the 1st one "overrode" the hum.

I did finally run my cable TV line through an isolator in my balanced power AC unit, but didn't help much more than the kludge solution I had before (run the cable coax line through a 300-75-300 ohm conversion; or maybe vice versa).

Do you have any really long interconnects going to your amp? you could also try to make sure they're not really close to any power cables....

And sometimes things as simple as getting a ground lift 'cheater' plug for the 950 or other components may do the trick.

Then I realized I had somehow lowered the master volume to -7 from 0.

Applejelly when I had this occur once I realized while in Speaker calibration I had jumped to using the ‘main’ volume controls on the 950 remote. (Upper ¼ right quadrant) as opposed to the < > buttons at SEL/PLAY to move dB while in speaker calibration. This will screw up your levels and confuse for a sec, when you go round the horn again for a recheck of test tones.

Well I figured out my first problem - the apparent drop in loudness after the inital calibration. That darn Rat Shack meter eats batteries pretty good. Seriously, once I put in a new 9V, the measured loudness went back up. So another calibration (00 volume, 75 dB) and my settings are back in the -8 to -11 range.

The hiss and hum is definitely volume related and only are significant at a volume of 00 and higher. Yes there are lots of reason for hum in a system, but nothing changed in my system except the blue dot. My old unit hisses, but never really hums and again, this is a constant at ALL volume settings. For the blue dot, is this a problem in practice? I am still not sure. Because of this I recalibrated at -10 volume (still 75db), hoping this would keep me further away from the nasties. Then again, I (obviously) had to up the trims, so maybe it is a total wash. I will keep experimenting and let you know. I do know that with it cal'd at 00/75, I was able to clip my amps with the volume set at 00 during the opening of Toy Story 2 (when the words Toy Story 2 come flying forward). So it seems like there is enough gain - or I need a bigger amp

Finally, the clicking mute circuit is definitely annoying. Any totally quiet part of a DVD (like the FBI warning or a silent menu) and I hear it. Pause the DVD and click. Rewind the DVD for more than a second and click. I can handle it during the speaker cailbration, where each channel change makes a click, but during the movie - uggh.

I think the unit is quiet enough to not even need the mute circuit. I guess they wanted to be sure it wouldn't hiss when just sitting there (set on a digital input anyway). I wish they hadn't gone that far. I guess I have a few more days to decide what to do....

I am a Outlaw newbie. Recently jumped on a 950 after the Soundhound version was announced. My 950 has only been in operation 3 days so far. BTW my unit has no dots, but the serial # starts off with 02. No noticeable hiss or humm so far and I have very sensitive speakers all around. One thing I have noticed is that you really have to step on the volume compared to my old processor, but the sound quality of the 950 is far superior however.

AJ- I had the digital version of the Rad Shack meter for a short time. That thing chewed through batteries like I couldn't believe. I swapped it for the analog model (same meter, but better resolution in terms of sub 1 dB changes), and I'm still on my original battery, and it's more than 3 years old! That LCD display on the digital version is a power hog...

So of all you blue dotters, who get the annoying clicking mute and who doesn't? I am using the optical input from a DVD player.

Mine (blue dot) has no hiss unless I turn the trims and the volume all the way up, then I can hear it from about 6 inches. If I tried to play it that loud, however, I would destroy my equipment and my hearing. At reference level (very loud), with nothing playing, I can switch between inputs, both digital and analog, with no pops, and a VERY FAINT EAR TO TWEETER HISS. In other words, my blue dot is "empty morgue" quiet. When I first hooked it up, I had a hum in all speakers. I knew it was AC induced, and checked all my interconnects and my cable feed. When I went to unplug everything and begin the rerouting process, I unplugged one of my equalizers, and realized that I had failed to put a cheater plug on the end of a 3-prong power cord. I installed one and now there is nothing, and I mean nothing, coming out of my speakers that I don't want to hear.

Soundhound,
Was visiting the forum the other day when you were talking to Willscary about calibrating his system by having the 950 at "0" and the main volume at "00", and use the volume pots on the power amps to get 75db. I had received my replacement Blue Dot the same day and had already calibrated my 950 at "00" and found it to be very loud. I than tried lowering the setting on the 950 to "-8" and calibrated again. That was it, finally, this is what I had hoped my first 950 would sound like.
But after reading your thoughts about using the power pots on the amp's to calibrate the speakers I said why not give it a try. A fellow gunslinger named Youngguns came over and got behind all that gear to set the Parasound amps. In a few minutes it was done. I think the sound, to my ears, is even better and well worth the little effort that it took. Again thanks, to you and others who use this forum to help solve some of the everyday problems that come up and drive some of us crazy.

Dobeman:

I'm glad somebody somebody finally tried that tweak! Great to hear it improved the sound for you. Can't beat the price

Truth be known, that is the way I always used to set it up. With 2 little ones in the house, I was always afraid to have the amps all the way up for fear of having one of them accidentally turn it WAY up and blow something.

Enter the other day...I noticed that bypass was much louder than going through the dsp. I realized that the channel trims are dsp, and that by setting all trims to zero I could switch between any source, analog, digital, or bypass, and have the same volume (with exception to the recorded level of the source, for example, a loud commercial vs the actual tv show). Now I set all trims to zero, adjust the pots on the back of the amp and the subwoofer for trim control, and leave it at that.

AJ- Maybe a data pt for you: I'm using the coax input.

AJ- I too am using the coax cable for DVD and cannot notice it muting at all. However, my CD is connected via an optical cable and I can hear the mute between tracks and disc changes.

Scott