Clones

Interesting article

http://www.audioholics.com/productreviews/avhardware/clone_prepros.php

Is the price of the Sherbourn wrong?



[This message has been edited by randyb (edited October 08, 2002).]

That data appears to be wrong. I believe the price of the Sherbourne is about $1500. Maybe someone alse here could confirm this?

Out.

Call 'em and ask.

(978) 663-7385
info@sherbourn.com

Sherbourn Technologies, Inc.
19-3A Sterling Road
N. Billerica, MA 01862

Sherbourn's list is $1500.

I just posted on there forum and 1,500 is correct. They are going to revise the article but they apparently are thinking a street price close to 900 which seems pretty low to me (maybe not for some Sony etc. but....)

From the article:

"For example, quality control is probably very good since there are multiple production lines producing this common product for several hardware manufacturers."


I'm going to withhold comment on this one...........

The following facts are well known. At Winter CES, Outlaw Audio held a press conference with EastTech. SMR News reported on this press conference. There, Outlaw explained that it had worked jointly with EastTech to develop a platform for a new processor, and that Outlaw would be the first to release a processor (the Model 950) off of this platform. Outlaw also made note that other companies would release pre-amplifiers based on this platform. At this time, we know of four other companies that have developed a processor based on that platform. As time goes on, other companies will also use this platform as a springboard for their own products. This fact was never hidden as our press conference was held for all industry journalists to attend.

As for differences in the units, that is up to the individual manufacturers to decide. As for the pricing difference, anyone that knows the Outlaw Story understands that it is unfair to compare the price of our goods to those of other traditional companies. Our direct M to C (manufacturer to consumer) model enables us to eliminate an entire level of mark up (specifically, dealer mark up).

Best Regards,

Scott

"As for differences in the units, that is up to the individual manufacturers to decide. As for the pricing difference, anyone that knows the Outlaw Story understands that it is unfair to compare the price of our goods to those of other traditional companies. Our direct M to C (manufacturer to consumer) model enables us to eliminate an entire level of mark up (specifically, dealer mark up)."

Unfair to whom? The dealer I would assume. As the squeeze on the dealer continues, I think mark-ups continue to erode. At least that is what people in the know (dealers) have been telling me.

I really don't think the intent of the article was to harm anyone or being unfair for that matter. It appears to me (excepting the erroneous price info admittedly) that the intent was to show what direction the industry may be heading.

I guess my question is aimed at Scott-did you take it the article was unfair?

Atlantic Tech and Sherbourn are known. Who are the other companies?

I read that some of the Outlaws were somehow also connected to either Atlantic Tech or Sherbourn. I don't recall the exact details.

Only in the expectation that there shouldn't be a price difference between a direct to the end user company and one that sells through traditional dealer networks. My suspicion is that the writer may have been unaware of how our business model works.

Will,



Unfortunately, that is something that I would have to leave up to the individual manufacturers to declare.

I would guess you may be right, but I also think he may just have got a bad price on the Sherbourn and wondered out loud-no ill intent meant. We will see when the promised revised article is posted.

The more I dig into this industry, the more I find that the dealers seem to be losing clout-manufacturers in the end want to move product or they will die.

[This message has been edited by randyb (edited October 09, 2002).]

If the AT hits the street for $1100-$1200 it would be worth the difference for me to get the better looking unit. The green button is OK, but the whole 'black spray paint' finish is just plain cheap looking. Either of the AT finishes are worlds better looking to me.

If they are on the up and up regarding the parts subbing that would be gravy.

Some people want a local dealer and immediate availability. Others want internet access.

Sort of like renting DVD's at blockbuster, or over the internet.

The relationship some of the Outlaw principals have with Sherbourn and/or AT may be they benfit if the 950 sells and they also benefit if the 950 clone sells. A win-win situation!

Will,

"Some people want a local dealer and immediate availability."

I agree, but most people want the best of both, immediate availability and low price. The fact that shipping can be very fast can give you that option.

I think what you find is that more and more dealers are selling protected products on the sly over the internet. Sometimes the manufacturers will react and take the product away, but sometimes they are turning their heads the other way. I believe as the competition heats up, it will be hard for manufacturers to enforce their protected area policies-they will either start to sell direct (or though authorized online dealers) or they will start up another company to sell product direct.

In other words, I think it is going to be increasingly rough for the normal retail dealers (turn key installers are another animal).

Hello all,

Interesting....The 950 and AT units are the main two I have been considering. I can get cost on AT thru a relative, but even at that, it is not much less than the 950. I do like the look of the AT unit better, though.

My main concern now is the multi-channel amp to go with it. I'm worried about the sound of the matching AT amp. I wonder if the AT A-2000 amp is also a clone?? The AT and new Outlaw amp are being released at about the same time. It will be interesting to see the new 7100 specs to compare it to the AT unit. But I'll probably go with Outlaw's 770 for the increased power.

fly guy

The article states:
These processors were co-developed by East Tech and Cirrus Logic for OEM purposes to sell to Audio Hardware Manufacturers with customized chassis, faceplates and logos to accompany them of course. Eastern Tech in an Asian OEM which manufacturers the design and specifications of these processors.

I was always under the impression that Outlaw was a key player in the design of this processor. During all the delays it was always Outlaw working with the engineers to solve them... to read this article you get the impression that Eastern Tech is the sole responsible party. What gives?

I would think it could still be Outlaw working with the engineers at East Tech to design and develop a processor to their specs.

My understanding is that the article is being revised so we will have to see what the revisions say. I know that they are revising with the correct retail prices.

[This message has been edited by randyb (edited October 08, 2002).]

It looks like the audioholics article has been updated:

http://www.audioholics.com/productreviews/avhardware/clone_prepros.php

And there's a note from Ron Fone on the last page...


------------------
- CED

CED you are quick on the draw so to speak.

Here is East Tech's web site (I think) for anyone interested.
http://www.eastech1.com/english/index.htm

[This message has been edited by randyb (edited October 08, 2002).]

[This message has been edited by randyb (edited October 08, 2002).]

Ok so I need some help from all the experts...
What does calibrating the boards mean? So much of this stuff is now digital I would think all calibrations would be software and fixed?
Are low leakage capacitors that expensive? are there degrees of leakage?

So much to learn... so little time....

Having 3+ resellers reselling a common pre/pro gets the price of the pre/pro down to $899, and I applaud. But I have to ask why the same resellers won't resell a common amp.

Why share pre/pro's but not amps? Are these resellers trying to distinguish their product lines by having distinguished amps?

If they resold the same amps, wouldn't they get the amp price way way down too? Amp designs don't change all that much each year. They're not like a pre/pro that needs to change each year. Amps are like brawn. Pre/pro's are like brain. But, in a 950/770 setup, far more bucks are spent on the brawn than the brain. We can resort to mini-me brawn, a.k.a. 7100 to save $. But how come regular 770 class brawn costs so much more than regular brain?

What do you think? Am I all wet or is the price of an amp in the 770's class higher than it ought to be?

[This message has been edited by Will (edited October 08, 2002).]

Will,

My take is that amps are much easier to design that 6.1 pre/pro's. So each company can put its engineers to work to design something that looks and sounds like a homegrown design, thus offering some distinction from its competitors. Offering a pre/pro and amp combo that looks and specs just like 2 or 3 other companies would give you little to compete with, unless you were the cheapest, which they can't be due to Outlaw's business model.

MSRP:

Outlaw 950 $899
Oullaw 770 $1799

Does the Outlaw 7x200w amp need to cost so much more than an Outlaw pre/pro?

There's more distinction between pre/pro's than between amps. Excepting clone pre/pro's.

Wouldn't the 7x200w Outlaw cost less if multiple resellers sold it?

[This message has been edited by Will (edited October 08, 2002).]

Will:

There's more than just R&D costs to building a product -- oh, for example things such as the cost of materials?

Take a look inside an amplifier such as the 770 and you'll probably see LARGE metal heat sinks, dozens of output devices, a large transformer or two, some hefty capacitors and then remember that the whole thing has to be wrapped into a chassis that is strong enough to hold it all together.

Look inside a processor and you'll see one or two expensive DSPs, some DACs, the display and a couple of other high value components. However, the bulk of the mechanicals are are reasonably inexpensive.

COuld it be that accounts for the price difference between a 7x200 amp and a processor?

ARF ARF, says Iggy -- but what do I know, I'm only a dog?

Iggy,

Also when comparing the 950 to the 770, let's not forget one's made mostly in Asia. The other's made mostly in America.

Are any amplifiers made mostly in Asia?

Will:

You betcha! There are many amplifiers made in Asia, though as you approach the high-end they do tend to come more from the US for a variety of reasons -- not the least of which are the cost factors related to sheer physical weight that I mentioned previously.

Indeed, that makes the case for why one would presume that the Outlaws could sell the 950 for less than their amplifiers.

Your original comment a few posts back seemed to wonder why they can sell the 950 for less than the amps, and I'll I'm barking to say is that you need to look no further than the cost of one vs. the other to see why. Forget about who makes it, or where they make it. Forget about how much they make or how much might be saved by choice of manufacturer or the other items being discussed here. The guts of a heavy-duty, high-end amp such as the Outlaws is gonna cost more than the guts of the 950.

ARF ARF, says Iggy -- but what do I know, I'm only a dog.

[This message has been edited by Iggy The Dog (edited October 09, 2002).]

Iggy,

They make cars, trucks and other heavy duty parts in Asia that are imported here.

As you mentioned, there's not much R & D expense in making an amplifier. If a new amp costs so much more than a new pre/pro, because of the amp's sturdier construction and (largely low-tech) electronic parts content and manufacturing process, aren't those cheaper in Asia than the USA?

I'm sure there's a reason that somebody like Outlaw and AT and Sherbourn don't import as a group, 200 wpc amps from an Asian outfit like Easttech, to resell here, for under what USA 200 wpc amps go for. But I haven't figured it out.

I can see why Outlaw and AT and Sherbourn might want to distinguish their pre/pro's, even though they don't really. I can't exactly see why they distinguish their amps, even though they do. Personally, I wouldn't care that much if the amp I had was 2 or 3 or 5 years old, as long as it works. As long as the amp has the necessary wpc rating, the pre/pro matters so much more to me than the amp! I doubt I'm alone.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited October 09, 2002).]

Will,

I agree with Iggy - amps are expensive to manufacture due to parts/materials alone. Plus $1799 for 1400W IS dirt cheap. To me that amp is overkill unless you are running large speakers all around and in a large room. Look around at other amps, 2 channel, 5 channel or 7 channel, how many sell for $1.29 per watt? In my opinion, if you want to spend less, get a 5x100W for all channels except the mains, and then a 2x200W for the mains.

Plus so much depends upon the efficiency of the speakers and the crossover setting. Running 86dB sensivity speakers full range could use 200W, maybe more for movies. Running 93dB sensivity speakers with a crossover of 80Hz, and 100W should be enough to drive you from the room.

Sure, they make cars and trucks in Asia and import them, but that IS expensive. Why do you think they make Toyotas in Kentucky? Many of the Asia models are now made here to save on shipping costs.

Sure, if more and more clones sold the same amp, that would reduce the unit price some, but not a lot, and with that much money tied up in materials alone, that gives manufacturers some room to distinguish themselves without driving up the price of the amp very much. Like I said, the Outlaw amp is still a bargain.

Another example is a computer and a monitor. The CPU is the 950 and monitor is the amp. Today you can easily buy a CPU that is fast, lots of memory, etc for less than $1k. But now you want to add a great 21" monitor to go with it, and you can spend more than on the computer. Although they perform a much simpler task than the CPU, displays, good and big displays, are inherently expensive. Same with amps. Back when life was 2 channel, spending identical amounts for an analog preamp and a 2-channel amp made sense. Today, buying a computer based preamp and a monster multichannel amp, tips that price balance towards the amp.

This quote implies a much larger part played in the design of the 950 by Eastech than I had originally believed. As far as I know, this is the first Outlaw project to involve Eastech to such a level (if at all? Did they help Outlaw with the 1050?)

It raises a question in my mind: how many of the 950's numerous delays and eventual quality control problems were Outlaw's fault and how many were Eastech's? I don't think this point has really been raised in these forums before, but it certainly appears as though Outlaw may have gotten screwed by Eastech on this one.

If so, it's a shame. Also, if so, I hope Outlaw re-evaluates the relationship. But I'll empasize that I don't know if it's so or not.

------------------
Matthew J. Hill
matt@idsi.net

Here's Eastech's website: http://www.eastech.com/

I read somewhere that Eastech builds the Outlaw 1050.

It's hard to find a whole lot of details on the relationship Eastech has with Outlaw, or for that matter, on the relationship Atlantic Tech has with Outlaw, or Sherbourn has with Outlaw. Outlaw is privately held.

I got that implication, too, but since the author seemed to be looking at the three as clones that appeared simultaneously (and even hinted that it was something of a revelation, even though all three were announced as far back as January and the 950's been in the news for a lot longer than that) I wondered about how much stock to put in the statement. If the author of the article knew that Eastech was involved in the design (which they were, based on what we've heard from Outlaw), he may have assumed Eastech did the design.

------------------
gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

Incidentally Eastech also builds the Outlaw IR1000 Internet Radio - http://www.eastech.com/acrobat/IR1000.pdf

Hmmm, if Ron says something, it must be true.
If Joe says something, it must be true.
If Gene says something, it must be true.
If Richard says something, it must be true.
If John says something, it must be true.
If Peter says something, it must be true.

Guys... this industry is so engineeringly intermingled and connected, they all must succeed for each to succeed... including the Outlaws...?

There are lots of CLONES out there already... you just don't know where to look.

[This message has been edited by merc (edited October 10, 2002).]

Must be that something is true.



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the 1derful1

OK I get it. The most cost effective place to build the (relatively) high-tech 950 pre/pro is in Asia not the USA. The most cost effective place to build the (relatively) low-tech 770 amp is in the USA.

Oh, and Eastech builds the elusive IR1000, but the original design for the IR1000's brains come from near San Francisco -- Arrio . Just to keep things sufficiently convoluted this morning...

------------------
gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

"I got that implication, too, but since the author seemed to be looking at the three as clones that appeared simultaneously (and even hinted that it was something of a revelation, even though all three were announced as far back as January and the 950's been in the news for a lot longer than that) I wondered about how much stock to put in the statement. If the author of the article knew that Eastech was involved in the design (which they were, based on what we've heard from Outlaw), he may have assumed Eastech did the design."

I have raised this issue with the author and have not received a response. My take is that it was written from the point of view of someone just discovering these pieces, not from somebody that has followed the development from the moment it was announced (by Outlaw). I don't think (although I don't know) that he has any special insight into the development and probably just based it on what he could find (wihtout the benefit of talking to the Outlaws, Sherbourn, and probably EastTech) on the net.

My take on the intent (although for some reason it seems to have been taken differently by others) is that it was merely a comment on the industry for people who are not devoted forum people. Now, it seems that we have a mountain out of a mole hill. I was interested in the post mainly because originally it had the wrong price on Sherbourn and I wondered if that was really correct. Thought I would get a quick answer here (which I did).

[This message has been edited by randyb (edited October 10, 2002).]

[This message has been edited by randyb (edited October 10, 2002).]

And to increase the convolution, Easteach out of Singapore owns equity in Ario near San Francisco. Here's the announcement from back in June 2000: http://www.arrio.com/news4.html

Maybe at the bottom of it all Bill Gates owns everything.

[This message has been edited by randyb (edited October 10, 2002).]

My intimate involvement with Asia design and manufacturing of Ethernet equipment produced lots of bumps in the road (less than stellar design and mfg QA).

Maybe this is also what Outlaw is experiencing.

The "Asia" labeled here more specifically refers to Taiwan, mainland China, Korea, Malaysia and not Japan.

[This message has been edited by bstan (edited October 10, 2002).]

Thank God the cars made in Japan did not follow the quality (or lack thereof) of our cars here in the U.S. I guess Japan is also in Asia.

Last year, I purchased a Kawasaki KLR650 motorcycle. After riding it about 3000 miles, things started falling off, and the shifter broke off (on the freeway, no less!) I bought it because it was an established design, and had received a stellar reputation.

When I took it back to the dealer to trade it in on something else, he told me that they had switched manufacturing of this model from Japan, to Bankok, Thailand as of my model year.

Goes to show 'ya!

Right now, good quality = Japan. And not so good quality = those other Asian countries. But wait! It wasn't long ago the term "cheap Japanese Imports" was everywhere, meaning cheap stuff, inferior quality. And just wait! It probably won't be long before Japanese-style high quality is associated with Taiwan, Korea, etc.

I agree. I think the other Asian companies are here to stay. Most people that want to get ahead have a great work ethic.


[This message has been edited by randyb (edited October 10, 2002).]

A lot of things are coming from China, and some of them are of extremely high quality (things contracted from American companies, for instance). It really depends I would think, on what quality level is demanded by the company contracting the work to Asia.

Japan's stock market is at a, are you sitting down, 19 year low. Hopefully that's not where the DJIA is heading.

My wife, who performed in Japan for quite a few years told me that Japanese workers are tending to just 'go through the motions' in their work, very uncharacteristic for them in the past.

Soundhound - China has many products that they are having difficulties with. For instance ASUS motherboards. The ones made in Tawain have very little problems with them. The ones being made in China are crap.

TPS

I was really talking about _my_ experience with some things made in China. A very high-end professional condenser microphone that gets used a lot is made there, and the workmanship is impressive. Some of their vacuum tubes though seem to have an identity problem: they think that they are fireworks, not vacuum tubes... I suppose it just takes diligence on the part of the person doing the contracting to demand quality.

Then, there is always the URAL motorcycle that is made in Russia - I'll just say that the workmanship is "interesting" !!

Just got this email from AT:

"It is true that both the Atlantic and Outlaw processors share the same
platform, however, we utilize proprietary circuitry and have selected
different components. We are aware that Outlaw has had a small percentage
of units with an elevated noise floor in certain systems with specific
speakers. A majority of their units are not prone to the noise problem.

Atlantic has shipped several hundred of the P-2000's and we have not had
complaints.
Home Theater Magazine will have a review for the P-2000 in the next 60-90
days."

I wonder what proprietary circuitry they are talking about?? And what different components??

If there's a P-2000 store near Soundhound, chances are he'll measure its S/N ratio, like he measured the S/N in his 950 and also in my 950.

Will, and all:

Gotcha covered. That was the first thing I thought of also, so I called all the AT dealers in my area. Seems the P2K is a special order item that they don't have on display, but can get if I _pay_ for one. Big Fat Bummer. What's a poor SoundHound to do??? The "propriatary" circuitry they are talking about is probably just the "A" or "selected, hand picked" versions of the same ICs that the 950 uses. It would be cost-prohibitive to re-design for another IC: the circuit boards would have to be changed, the whole works. Using a higher grade of parts would, at least in theroy (fingers crossed) result in lower noise.....Anybody in Los Angeles want to buy one and get it measured????


[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited October 11, 2002).]

What was the 'street price' for the AT?

With that policy, Atlantic Tech should be selling the P2K like gangbusters.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited October 11, 2002).]

I didn't ask, but considering it's 'special order' status, I'd expect to pay full zoot for it.

Will:

The Atlantic Technology web site doesn't even have a dealer finder! I had to call them, on _my_ nickel if I remember correctly to find out. There are actually more dealers in the area than I thought, but I got the same answer from them all. Maybe they don't _really_ want to sell any P2Ks for fear of people having hiss problems (-:

[QUOTE]
Right now, good quality = Japan. And not so good quality = those other Asian countries.

My 1050 has a stamp "made in Mylasia" I hope this dooesnt mean its low quality too.

I suspect that Malaysia is where the Koreans move their productions sites to in order to reduce manufacturing costs, Korea is where the Chinese move their production sites to, and China is where the Japanese move their sites to. ;-)

As does my 950. Outlaw's proud to be an American company, but many of their products are from overseas. Their amps are American, but made originally by another company.

Hee Hee - You're kill'in me

Will, like they have always said-- "We don't own no stinkin" factories".

I don't think the Chinese outsource to Korea. Maybe the other way around. Even if they wanted to, they don't have the hard currency to afford the Koreans.

I think it depends upon the factory and its quality control procedures (maybe overseen by the companies contracting with these factories)as to whether the product put out is of high quality or not.

The most price sensitive products will be move to a factory/country offering lower production costs. If costs are shaved too much, then quality may suffer. But then again, high cost or manufacture in a high cost country is no guarantee of high quality/reliability.

Paul

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the 1derful1

Well, I was being a bit facetious. However, I think you'd find that the relative manufacturing overhead costs of these countries is pretty consistent with my ranking. I would also question your point about the signficance of the emphasis on quality control in these countries. You don't have your products out-sourced to Taiwan or move your manufacturing facilities down to Mexico because you value quality. Increasing the level of quality control in these situations would start to erode the cost benefits from using the site in the first place, and you are already at a QC disadvantage since you are probaly dealing with company that is remotely located and has a language barrier with your own, employs untrained/uneducated workers who are making grossly inadequate wages, and adheres to very few manufacturing standards -- if the country even acknowledges any. (At least that has certainly been the case in my industry.) Sure, your company may have some influence over quality, but more influence means more costs means less profit. I would also argue that it is the mentality of most corporations to move ALL products to low-cost manufacturing sites, not just price-sensitive ones. After all, increasing profit margins is increasing profit margins.

It may be to a companies financial benefit to move production to a lower cost country as long as the the product as presented to the customer has enough quality to please the customer.

BUT, if a shoddy product is presented to the customer, woe be unto the manufacturer for the dissatisfied customer with taketh his or her business elsewhere, badmouthing this company far and wide.

For example, I purchased an IBM hard drive a couple of years ago (a GXP75 series, I think). It worked fine for a few months, then major data errors happened. IBM replaced it under the 3 year warranty. Since then, I have found out that this series of drive has had a MUCH greater rate of failure than other IBM drives and non-IBM drives. Of course IBM is doing the Cleopatra act (queen of de-nile). IBM has replaced my filed drive with a refurbished (one that has already failed but was fixed) version of the same drive.

I have lost faith in IBM and their drives. I have not purchase another IBM drive and have not recommended IBM to others.

Once a customer loses faith in a manufacturer, all the corporate spin in the world will not get it back.

So, if companies outsource their manufacturing to low cost countries and do not maintain any sort of quality assurance check on the product, they are asking for disaster. This is assuming the basic design itself is sound.

Paul

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the 1derful1

Could that be one reason why IBM sold their disk drive business to Hitachi? If your customers think your products are no good, just sell the product line.... And buy somebody else's product line. Could that be why PriceWaterhouse sold their consulting business to IBM?

Sure, that's certainly an alternative... Unless everyone else is also making their products at low overhead manufacturing sites with substandard quality, which is often the case since many consumer products have to remain price competitive with their competitors. The fact is, you often get what you pay for in consumer products. You can find a company that makes a better product, but -- chances are -- they're going to charge you more for it simply because it costs them more to make.

This is off topic, but I couldn't resist it as an illustration of a case of tiny sample sizes. In our office most of the drives are IBM (GXP60/75/120 series) and we've had one bad drive. At home I have mostly IBM also, (5 drives) with no problems.

I'm wondering what percent of the 950s are showing problems (in a vain attempt to add topicality )

I've also had a lot of IBM drives, and so far none have given me any problems.

I think part of their mistake is replacing a bad unit with a refurbished, rather than new, one. This increases the likelihood of a second failure and an EXTREMELY dissatisfied customer.

Or perhaps they already regard the customer who has experienced a failure as a lost cause.

It's hard to argue with the sample size point, but when you experience two failures in two drives, youc ertainly get an impression that transcends sample size.

------------------
Matthew J. Hill
matt@idsi.net

Hmm, I just re-read Paul's message and saw that he only experienced one failure... for some reason I was thinking that his replacement drive failed also. I, personally, would not fault a company for the first product failure, especially if it was replaced promptly and if the replacement worked.

After all, my first 1050 went bad after less than a month. Outlaw replaced it with a unit that has been functioning flawlessly for nearly a year now. It might even be a refurb; I didn't care enough to ask. I don't fault them for it.

------------------
Matthew J. Hill
matt@idsi.net

All true, and the replacement seems to have worked, but I agree with your first post - anything that increases the chance of a second failure in a case like this is PR suicide.

There are many personal computer web sites that have information on this IBM drive problem.

For example:

http://www.tech-report.com/news_reply.x/3494/1/

A search on google will turn up LOTS.


My replacement drive is working fine, but I put it in a system is not critical. The system that had the drive that went bad got a new Maxtor drive.

I have not lost faith in all of IBM, just their IDE drives. SCSI drives, I believe, are built to a higher standard, thus the 5 year warranty, instead of 3 ... oops ... 1 years for IDE (recently, Maxtor, Western Digital, and Seagate have reduced the length of warranties from 3 years to 1 year. They SAY they are doing this in order to bring their warranty lenght in line with other PC component manufacturers. I KNOW they are doning this to increase profits, regardless of what their spinmeisters say.)

I have had one other drive, a SCSI model fail. This happened back in 1998 or 1999. It was replaced with a "refurbished" version of the same model and has been working fine ever since. As well as these two IBM drives, I have three more IBM drives; two SCSI and one IDE.

I do not have any ill will towards IBM's other products. In fact, in IBM computers, you will often find non-IBM drives. Their laptops have a good reliability reputation.

Paul

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the 1derful1

The other side of the coin is, of course, the generally excellent performance generated by the IBM drives:

http://www.storagereview.com/

They are pretty much alone in always being either in the 1 or 2 slot for each test. Pretty consistent. If they are bad overall the market will weed them out.

Are clones becoming plentiful in the stores these days, now that Outlaw doesn't have the wait line for the 950?

I am also curious to see if these would make an audible difference in the Sherbourn product. If so and it hits the street at around $900, they could be very attractive.

I've been trying to find all of the pre/pros that support DPLII. Most are very expensive, like the Anthem and new Fosgate (with the 5" LCD screen). The Rotel goes for about $1500.

I'd much rather pay $900 for the Outlaw or a similar product. Especially since pre/pros become obsolete so quickly.

Eventually, a pre/pro will be a bunch of DSPs with generic hardware for I/O. Heck, the hardware could be plug-in cards similar to how my digital mixers work in my home music studio . You could buy cards with the I/O options you need.

Sayer

Where did you hear it would hit the street for the same price as the Outlaw?

I heard it streets close to $1250, plus or minus. Lower than $1500, but still more than the 950.


[This message has been edited by Will (edited November 09, 2002).]

Here:






$1250 isn't too bad. No internet sales though. Gotta find one local to price.

Thanks,

Sayer

PS - trying to get the quotes sorted out in this post was quite a challenge!

[This message has been edited by SayersWeb (edited November 09, 2002).]

Wow. That's an awful lot of synths you've got loaded into that thing. What do you use them all for?

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Matthew J. Hill
matt@idsi.net

LOL! Was that in response to my studio?

I've often thought of adding a direct connection to my home theater, but one slip up with some feedback and my surround system would be toast!

I'll stick to CDR-Ws to test my mixes.

Sayer

Between Sayer, Soundhound and others, there are quite a few posters with a sound sound engineer background in the saloon.

With all the people posting who by their postings made it clear they either are sound engineers now or have a good background in it, I wonder how many other posters have a background in sound engineering.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited November 14, 2002).]

I'm just a hobbist in audio. I'm a software engineer and electronics tech with a background in realtime systems and industrial automation. So I do have tons of professional experience with shuffling bits and small signal transmission, but nothing you'd want to listen to ... unless you're a factory manager I guess.

I am an electronics engineer, mostly analog.

None of my designs are soundly engineered ... oops ... I am not a sound engineer ... that's not much better ... I do not engineer audio stuff as part of my job. My hobby is audio, though.

Paul

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the 1derful1



[This message has been edited by Paul J. Stiles (edited November 14, 2002).]