Analog introduces hiss?

I came across an issue this evening as I sat by myself with my week old 950 and Parasound 1205. My setup:

Outlaw 950
Parasound 1205a
Paradigm Monitor 11's v.2
Paradigm CC-350 v.2
Paradigm Mini-Monitors v.2

Keep in mind that just the amp and the 950 are powered on below.

When I turn on the 950, "DVD" is selected with "Optical 1" as the source. Everything is dead silent, which is good. However, when I select an analog input like "TV", the hiss starts. This is audible from the listening position. Now here's the catch... when I switch back to "DVD" with ANY optical input, the hiss is STILL THERE! If I turn the 950 back off and then back on with "DVD + Optical X" as the default, the hiss is gone until an analog source is specified. Once the hiss is introduced, it stays around no matter what source is selected.

The hiss will not occur when the line outputs are disconnected from the 950 meaning that it's most likely not an amp problem.

Note: With the Digital SPL meter from Radio Shack set on C weighting and fast response, the reading is ~50dB at three inches from the tweeter of ANY speaker after the hiss is introduced.

Am I missing something?

-JPancake

i have nothing to add to this other than to say this is the EXACT same thing that i am experiencing with mine.

ok actually i do want to add something -

i just tried this out with mine, and if i start it up with a digital source selected, it is silent. However, if i begin playing a digital source, the hiss then returns even if the source is stopped and powered off.

So the hiss is exactly the same for both analog and digital, the only difference being that it seems the output on a digital source is muted until an actual signal is present.

Oh great: Hiss-induced production stoppage, v2.0

I think many people have this problem. I think it is well known. Like you say, when the 950 first turns on, everything is silent. When an analog input is selected, there is hiss and it does NOT go away. When a digital input is selected, the hiss stays. See this thread for more info: http://ubb.outlawaudio.com/ubb/Forum15/HTML/000513.html and also to see how the hiss may relate to the signal to noise spec.

All this discussion about hiss is scary. I just purchased a 1050 after deciding to leave the world of Sony consumer electronics because of a cronic hiss in my $200 sony receiver. I was very interested in the features of the 950 and would love to try the 950/770 combo but price and experience made me stay away from this purchase. I am now loving the sound of my 1050 and feel I will upgrade to the 950/770 in the future. How can I possible justify spending $2400 only to get a unit with the exact same problem as my cheap little $200 sony ? Hopefully this hiss will be corrected before I decide to upgrade.

Would there be any advantage of introducing an AC line filter at the 950 power source? Is there any chance that would help? The only thing is that it's a hiss not a buzz, the buzz being more indicative of a power issue. Is it worth trying?

Also, is EVERYONE having this "issue"? Is it the norm?

please say 'no'...
please say 'no'...
please say 'no'...

-JPancake

I haven't noticed this problem with my 950. Is this something that is obvious or would I have to specifically listen for it? One thing I notice that is different in my setup is that I'm using coax inputs for dvd and cd, not optical. I also have everything plugged into a Panamax 5300 and I have pretty good power anyway.

mojoman,

try playing a CD for a bit, and then stop the cd player(turn it off if you want). Don't touch anything on the 950, and listen for hiss from the tweeter. How close do you have to be to hear hiss? Ear right on the tweeter? 3ft? 8ft?


[This message has been edited by chris3g (edited September 20, 2002).]

Like mojoman, I haven't noticed a problem with hiss. Now granted, I did a lot of tinkering around last winter trying to eliminate some power problems that had been giving me some ground loop noise, so the system's pretty quiet these days (I've got a Panamax 5100 on a dedicated circuit now, instead of a power strip on a 50-year-old groundless circuit shared with a microwave and refrigerator).

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

I am hearing the same thing too. Did not notice until you guys pointed it out. I normally have mine turned up and very little dead air. My setup:

Outlaw 950
Adcom 7500
Monsterpower HTS3500
Apex DVD (Coaxial digital)
JVC Cd Changer (analog)
JVC VCR (analog)
RCA TV (analog)
Axiom Epic 80 w/o sub
DIY 15" Tempest w/ partsexpress 350w amp

I really doubt mine is 50db from 3 ft like someone mentioned, but it is there, not really noticeable from 10 ft, but from 3 or 5 ft, YEP!

I finally got my stuff installed and totally love it! The clarity and depth is just SO much better than my dad's onkyo and my old 8000 series jvc amp!

I too have hiss from more than a foot away. The system sounds good though, despite the hiss.

There is a power conditioner on the line. But it's not the world's most expensive power conditioner. Hiss turns on AFTER switching to analog, and the hiss stays.


[This message has been edited by Will (edited September 20, 2002).]

Now this comment may put the dander up on big time audiophiles...but does the hiss matter? A low level hiss would seem to get lost in the general sound of what is being listened to. I am more videophile than audiophile...the transport noise on the dvd, the hum from the TV (heck...the street noise outside) would seem to be much worse. Now, I am prepared to eat my words (my 950/770 are on the way from California to Canada as we speak) when I put my system together, but I thoroughly expect the system to be worth the cash.

My $0.02

My 950 does not exhibit the digital-analog-back to digital hiss problem but this does not sound like a good thing. I do have a very small hiss on analog (inaudible from a foot away) and barely any on digital (ear up to the speaker) but it doesn't change with inputs. I also use a Monster HTS2000 power filter.

If it makes anyone feel better my Rotel 960A and Diva 2.1's hiss louder in my downstairs set up.

I did the experiment to see if I have hiss that stays even when switching back to digital. First of all, I have pretty good power conditioning, but not a 'megabuck' unit. It consists of 3 stages of RFI/EMI filters in various stages throughout the system, the last stage being a TrippLite 'isobar' strip. Also, I have a very low level buzz that given the complexity of my system, is to be expected. I have large theatre horn seakers for the L,C,& R speakers. and direct radiators on the sides/back.

In a digital source, coming in 'Optical #1' the hiss is audible from about 1 foot from the horn. Switching to analog, the hiss is louder, audible from about 6 feet away. Switching back to digital, the hiss returns to the original level for the digital input, i.e. hiss audible from only 1 foot away. I tried this many times and the result was always the same. In analog, the hiss is volume control dependent, getting louder as the control is advanced. At "+10" the hiss is much louder, and I can hear bleed-through of the FM tuner. Of course at that level I would not want to be in the same room when playing source material, and it is an un-reasonable test for hiss level. In digital input, the volume control does not really increase the level of hiss as it is advanced.

So, do I have a 'hiss problem"? I don't think so. The Outlaw is about as hissy relatively as my Sony EP9ES I had previously. Under normal level control settings, I cannot hear the hiss from my listening position, which is 15 feet away.

What I CAN say, hower, is that the analog section of the Outlaw 950 could use some design re-thinking. In my opinion, it is relatively noisier than it needs to be, given the amount of gain it has to provide (not much). I haven't dug around in the innards of the 950, and have no desire to given the complexity of connecting it into my system, so I do not know how the analog section was implemented.

Maybe our Solid Stage Logic guy (ssltech) can provide some answers about the topology having been inside the beast?

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited September 20, 2002).]

Who else hears hiss over a foot away in analog? With volume at about -20 dB.

ATTENTION, PLEASE READ!

Given the content of the messages in this thread, it’s appropriate for me to make a few comments on behalf of the Outlaws. First, it bears stating that ALL preamplifiers, processors or receivers have some level of hiss. It’s simply unavoidable. Next, it is true that some, though far from all, of the units from the original production run of the Model 950 exhibited an ABNORMAL level of hiss. While there is no industry standard on what constitutes an acceptable level as opposed to an unacceptable level it was plain that there were units with hiss at a level that could be heard above the general noise floor of some listening rooms.

It is well known that to take care of this issue we took the rather extreme step of halting production to make the necessary changes required to eliminate the objections raised by some 950 owners. As you also know, we have resumed production and shipments, and virtually everyone with a unit containing the changes agrees that the hiss has been reduced to unobtrusive levels in most real world setups

Unfortunately, the intense focus on this subject has led some people to seemingly replace their home theater hobby for a “hiss hunt” in searching for hiss by going out of their way to create unusual scenarios where it can be detected. Since the Outlaws live in an open, Internet world by design, indeed, by providing this very Forum for discussion of this type of thing, we understand it as a part of the natural behavior in the home theater world. However, at a certain point one has to take a step back and look at what is going on.

As you get closer and closer to reducing hiss, a point is reached beyond which it either requires increasingly large costs to achieve smaller and smaller reductions. At a certain point you simply cannot reduce the hiss at all. This is a gray area, as there is no standard or measurement guideline for when “enough is enough”. We feel that the Model 950 is representative of a very reasonable standard. The fact that the vast majority of the number of owners – a number that increases dramatically each day – is more than satisfied with the performance tells us we’re right on the mark.

It is worth noting that we have taken a different design approach than some of our competitors. Many manufacturers employ muting circuitry on the digital inputs when a signal is stopped so that the listener has the impression that there is no hiss. In reality the hiss is there, but muting provides the illusion of “hiss-free” performance. We think this is the moral equivalent of sweeping the crumbs under the carpet. You can’t see them, but trust us, they are there. HOWEVER, in all cases, when the digital signal returns and the system resumes, the hiss present in ALL units returns, but it is at such a low level that you simply don’t notice it. The general agreement that the 950 is a great performer on digital soundtracks is the TRUE testament to the fact that the noise floor is more than sufficiently low. Comparing a muted input to one that is not is simply not the way to evaluate performance any more than you would think the carpet is totally clean unless you look under the couch.

We feel that we have effectively addressed the hiss issue with the current Model 950. Some may choose to find out how they can “hear the hiss” even though they have been satisfied with the unit’s performance when it counts: with program material playing. There isn’t much we can do for those people, other than to suggest that the unit is performing the way it is intended. We could have added a mute circuit, but we didn’t. What you hear is what you hear.

Of course, we stand behind our commitment to customer service and will always be there to assist those with an abnormal problem. However, we regret that when it comes to addressing the unrealistic scenarios or situations where the unit is otherwise performing properly, there is simply nothing we can do to help other than to suggest that you focus on true performance rather than situations that do not gauge the actual quality of a product.

Best Regards,

Scott

I agree that this is bordering on 'Much ado about nothing". BUT in my post I was referring to the hiss in analog, not digital mode. Before I entered the music field heavily, I was an electronics design engineer, and have designed more than my share of analog gain blocks. I would presume that the 950 has something under 20db of analog gain. My previous post was simply that for that amount (or less) of gain, the hiss level seems _somewhat _ excessive. I would expect this amount of hiss from a relatively inexpensive FET input op-amp I.C. (such as a TLO-72) at 20db of gain. I don't know the analog implementation on the 950, and realize that cost is an issue, but I was just stating my findings, and opinions.

By the way, all the hiss comparasions were done at an indicated '00db' on the display on the 950, unless otherwise stated. My system is calibrated for 75db SPL per speaker, using the built-in pink noise generator of th 950.

Also, note that in my opinion, the hiss level is NOT really a problem in my system. The 950 performs very well in all digital aspects, and acceptably in analog. I would have left out the AM/FM tuner however, and put the money into a better analog section.

All good points Scott.

I passed on rev 0 of the 950 because of the hiss. But my name is happily on the list for the currently shipping rev, and now I'm a little curious if I will hear it on my system. I have balanced AC and medium sensitivity speakers.

My respectful opinion is though, that any hiss, at normal listening levels, at the listening position, would be a little hard to accept from any component. And I would also submit, that if the hiss prevents the unit from meeting the advertised specs, that either the specs should be changed, or the design of the unit should be continued to be worked on.

But maybe there's a larger magnifying glass (or microphone! ) on this for the 950 because of the past issues...


Just for kicks though, go check out the reviews on audioreview.com. Really early still, but the 950 is rated substantially higher than the 1066...


[This message has been edited by Kevin C Brown (edited September 20, 2002).]

I did post earlier about the hiss, it is there, no denying that. In response to the question about running at -20db, I dont hear it because that is cranked up movie volume. The hiss is actually closer to the volume of my pc fans (htpc) that are all quiet fans running at 9v instead of the 12v. I am VERY happy with my oulaw, adcom, and axiom combination, they are clear, precise, deep, and LOUD! I DO NOT think that this is a problem the Outlaws need to fix. I have listened to many pre/pros (including lexicon) and think the outlaw is by far quieter and a better piece of equipment (especially for the $$$$).

Overall, good product Outlaws! Thanks!

I tried this when I got home as chris3g suggested above. With the vol. at -05 (much louder than I can stand) I hear absolutely nothing when I switch off my cd player. If I crank it all the way to 10 there is a slight hiss at the speaker but I bet a Lexicon would exhibit just as much hiss. Overall, I'm very, very pleased with this product. More to say later once it's broken in and I've figured it all out.

that sounds like a very acceptable amout of hiss...i just wish mine was like that.

I also decided to check mine -- ran it on analog (cable box) for a while, switched to digital (CD), then stopped the CD player. At -20 dB volume, I had to get within 6 inches or less of the tweeter to hear anything. YMMV...

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

oaf:...GREAT post. you're in for a treat.

i'm running close to 4,000 watts of monoblock and bridged amps, outboard bass management components, 7 speakers, a monster of a sub, dvd player, sacd player, vcr, tv, cd player and ld player, connected by a literal ocean of cables powered by 2 dedicated 20 amp circuits thru 2 tripp lite lc 2400 line conditioners. (i remember when my live band was powered by less amplification).

audible hiss at +10db??? your kiddin', right?
1 foot from the tweeter?...i dare you.
(relax, i know you mean during dead time...a little levity)

scott: your points are, as usual, well written and equally well taken and i appreciate eveything you all did to deliver my 950 in it's current state: astoundingly clean, versitile, a huge source of my current enjoyment of life and plenty quiet.

gonk: (your first post in this thread) great advice to everyone connecting a home theater!

desperado: 950/770...

Scientific experiments confirming the presence or lack there of of any hiss introduced by the Outlaw Model 950 into my system will commence in about, oh, ... 24 to 72 hrs. Just ordered! Can't wait!

(... please let there be no hiss, please let there be no hiss ...)

I have to agree with Scott and hope his comments put this issue to rest. I never noticed any hiss from my previous Parasound unit, in any mode, until I started reading these threads. Since I was still on the waiting list, I did a few listening tests with my Parasound unit and guess what? To my surprise there was hiss coming from my mains, in analog mode, that coud be heard at least 18 inches away. I didn't have a problem with this because I had been listening to the unit for 4 years and never noticed it. When I introduced the 950 into "my home theatre environment", the first thing I did was just sit back and listen for a while. Sometime later I did listen for hiss in analog mode and noticed that the 950 reduced the amount of his "in my setup" by at least 50%. Not only that but overall sound quality in all modes increased substantially. Not too shabby if you ask me.

Now, back to enjoying my 950 - didjdude

Scott is right to some extent ("hiss hunt"), but if some people hear noise from their listening position, and the noise is not dependent on the volume setting, it is definetely not normal. Just re-read the first and second posts. Interesting that Scott cleverly avoided answering them.

O.K.
It's late, I'm tired, and my ears are ringing from my new toys

I have an Adcom 2 channel 300 watt amp. Stereophile Recommended component.

I run it through a Creek Audio OBH12 pre-amp (passive) another Stereophile Recommended component.

My 950/770 hisses ALOT less than those components did.
I'd be hard pressed to even call it a "hiss"...it sounds more like raw power just waiting to be unleashed.
Just got done listening to Joe Satriani Live in San Francisco....at +5 on the master volume control....through Klipsch towers, center, and surrounds.
"It ain't hiss I heard".

When I read this I thought, "Oh boy, here come the detractors" and sure enough on the same day you posted that somebody posted a review that basically slams the 950. It's funny because the only nice thing the reviewer says about it is "for the price it is unbeatable" but then proceeds to give it a 4 out of 5 stars on value. ???

[This message has been edited by Jed M (edited September 25, 2002).]

Yes, and it is also interesting to note that the reviewer indicated that "It hisses in many people's set ups." It would appear that whoever posted this has a real axe to grind with Outlaw. Why post problems that "others" are experiencing and that have been resolved? The reviewer indicated that he has had a 950 for "3 months to 1 year" but if this were the case, why talk about the hiss problem now that it is no longer an issue. The guy is probably a shill for Rotel or one of the fellowship of the miserables that seem to plague these forums.

I would bet that particular reviewer does own a 950 and, believe it or not, and posts here often! However, this is only a guess on my part.

Steves, jed and others:

If you believe that the guy who posted the admitedly wierd review at Audioreviews.com is wrong, why don't some of the folks here who actually own a 950 post their honest reviews to tell the true story.

I only wish my master had his 950, but they haven't gotten to him yet. You know, dog ears are VERY sensitive to hiss, so he's hopeful it won't have any. Based on everything I've read, it seems that BOTH of us will be pleased!

But what do I know, I'm only a dog!

ARF ARF, says Iggy, climbing back down from the keyboard to see if ours is here yet.

I think you may be barking up the wrong tree here, Iggy! Even though I don't agree with this person's finding's on the 950, I did not say he/she was wrong. My quip was only to point out that the reviewer might be a regular poster to this forum and not an Outlaw basher. I believe, for the most part, the reviews we see will be honest, individual assessments. Like the review posted by this particular individual. I understand that not everyone will believe the 950 is the best thing to come along since sliced bread- like I do! I can live with that. With shipments resuming, we should see a lot more reviews shortly. I look forward to reading yours! By the way, if you are also getting a 755 or 770, Iggy, don't chew on the power cord

No pun intended right steves!!

Iggy brings up a good point though, we'd love to see everyone's reviews on AudioReview .

steves:

OK, we're on the same wavelength. I never meant to imply that the 950 is the best thing since Kibbles & Bits. (Hey, throw me a bone -- literally!)

I agree that everyone IS entitled to their own opinion, provided that it is based on actual observation of a real unit, not a made up blast by someone trying to make a point. It looks to me that this forum has been very balanced in that regard, and I was only suggesting that those who haev their opinions post them outside this space.

But what so I know, I'm only a dog! ARF ARF

My 950 arrives tomorrow! Although I am NOT searching for hiss (I understand completely what is reasonable/normal), I am concerned and nervous about this. The reason I am nervous is becuase I have been battling hiss and hum for a while now. My HK Pro-Logic receiver has preouts for all channels, but I cannot use any but the main preouts since the others are full of noise - noise that I can hear loudly from my listening position. I also borrowed a friend's Adcom Pro-Logic preamp, and his center hissed so bad, I could hear that loudly from my listening position.

If I get my 950 all hooked up and it is silent from ~3 feet, I will be dancing around the room even before I play my first DVD. I am cautiously optimistic right now. I will report back tomorrow the results I get in my system.

I got mine!

I'll put other "review" stuff elsewhere, but I wanted to talk about the hiss.

This is only after about 30 min playing with it. Setting all the levels, playing parts of a CD and a DVD.

Mine does hiss more than the TA-E9000ES I have. At normal listening levels, I have to put my ear up to the tweeters to hear the hiss from the Sony. For the 950, I can hear it up to maybe 2 ft away. For some reason, the rear center seems worse than the other channels (maybe that speaker is a little more sensitive).

Big caveat: I have the 950 sitting out in front of my system. It is plugged into the wall for right now. (I wanted to make sure everything worked before I do the complete transplant.) When I get it plugged into my balanced power unit, I will post an update.

The rear center might be a problem, because that speaker is only 4 ft behind me.

For now, I only have my DVD player plugged into it, so basically I don't believe that it can be interference from power cords and other interconnects causing the problem (at least nothing that bothered the Sony), because the 950 is sitting on its box in front of my system by itself with the DVD player on top.

Oh, volume independent. Same hiss whether it's a stopped DVD, stopped CD in the DVD player, or the tuner with the volume turned down.

Note that the amount of hiss in 'analog' input mode is directly effected by the amount of channel trim 'boost' or 'cut' applied in the "Channel Calibration" or "Channel Trim" menus. Boosting the gain to "+10" in that menu makes the hiss much more noticable, to the point where I can hear it clearly at my listening position,15 feet away. This might help explain why some people are hearing more hiss than others.

SO....try to keep the settings at "0db" or below if possible. If your power amps have input gain controls, use these to set the sound level to 75db using pink noise test signals, while keeping the 950 channel trims at "0db".

My most hissful channel, rear center, I have set at -9 dB! So maybe it would even be worse if I had it closer to zero...

Well, balanced power doesn't help. There goes a theory I had all along.

(OK, now I'm chuckling at the comment a while ago of "people with their ears mashed against their tweeters" !) At my listening position, if I keep my head forward, can't hear the hiss. If I turn my head to the side so my ear faces my rear center, I can hear it.

If there's anything playing, music only CD, DVD, can't really hear it at all (you know, cause your brain is focussed on the content).

If I shut the 950 off and leave my amps on, no hiss. Not my amps.

Reckon I'll do the 30 days and see how I feel at the end.

But like I put in another thread, I still like it!

I'm not surprised that trying different power options didn't make any difference in the hiss. I've experienced that having good power generally just keeps static, buzzes and such crap out of the audio signal. It _is_ kind of strange that only your back channel has more hiss, however. Is it just as hissy if you have it set to LB/RB in the speaker setup menu? When I reduced the channel trim gain to -15db, my unit is extremely quiet, but I'd have to make up the gain elsewhere, and I'd be back where I started, hiss wise.

Soundhound,

Does your analog hiss increase with volume or trim? In mine, the hiss increases during the setting (via the calibration menu) of trim, but after the trim has been set, the analog hiss stays pretty much the same. Also, in mine, the analog hiss is not much different with the volume knob at -79 db as with the knob at -1 db. In analog, the hiss is just, well, there.

Will - When I increase and decrease the trim or calib, the hiss raises and lowers (in analog) At -15db in the trim or calib menu, it is REAL quiet, as quiet as it is in digital mode. The hiss is also volume control dependent. It seems to stay the same after I exit the menus. Since I thankfully don't have to run the trims above 0db, the hiss in my unit is acceptable, but not stellar. Generally, the hiss is only audible about 5 feet from the horns. I sit at 15 feet from the speakers. I have some analog preamps that are certainly quieter, even a couple that use vacuum tubes.

Well I hate to say it, my unit hisses quite a bit. Just got it yesterday, so I haven't fully calibrated it, but in stereo mode, the speakers hiss with nothing playing. The center is the loudest. I can hear the hiss from more than 10 feet away. The other 4 speakers hiss, but I cannot perceive if I can hear them since the are drowned out my the center hiss.

The hiss seems to be unrelated to volume setting. I turned the trim levels down 3 dB, but the hiss didn't change either. Plus the trim settings should do nothing in stereo bypass mode, which I was using. I disconnected the interconnect from the amp channel and the hiss dropped to almost inaudible levels (had to be within 6" to hear anything, which is great performance).

So, if I turn the system on but don't play anything and walk into the room, I hear hiss. Sure, once the music starts it is mostly drowned out. I'll have to do more playing around this weekend. I am pretty sure listening to music quietly or during quiet passages would be enough to let me hear the hiss.

Anyone else have this problem and figure out how to solve it? Worst case seems to be either buying a more expensive unit that has quieter cicuitry, or buying a 2 channel analog preamp for my music listening. With the latter I can leave the 950 off when listening to music, keeping the center and surrounds quiet. Of course I would much prefer a quiet AV preamp.

Applejelly:
Bummer. If you hear a hiss with just the 950 connected to your power amp, that goes away when you disconnect the 950 from the amp, then something is definately wrong. In stereo bypass mode, there is very little hiss in my unit, and as you assume, the trims have no effect in that mode. Have you tried the experiment with all input devices disconnected from the 950, so that you just have the 950 and your power amps? If it hisses in that configuration, it is pretty damming for the 950. I really don't understand why this preamp is getting so many reports relatively speaking of hiss. I don't think this is a knee-jerk reaction of customers of the prior hiss problems either. It is not rocket science to make a quiet analog preamp, I know since I've designed my share myself, and it is not that expensive either. As I've said several times before, they should have left off the FM/AM tuner and put the money into a better analog section. Excuse me, I;m ranting.....

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited September 27, 2002).]

Maybe they improved the hiss, but it's still there.

Too many of us are experiencing this for it to be issues with our individual systems.

But some people don't seem to have it at all. Maybe the 950 is just more sensitive to external factors (i.e., definately speaker sensitivity, and maybe amplifer gain as well) than other gear.

But I bet it's not meeting its specs in real world useage.

S/N Direct: 101 dB, Analog-DSP: 98 dB, Digital: 100 dB

Kevin C Brown,

I concur. Feel free to peruse this thread: http://ubb.outlawaudio.com/ubb/Forum15/HTML/000513.html

I have a vacuum tube 2 channel preamp in line with my main left and right speakers that I use as a pure stereo bypass _after_ the 950. It's _real_ noise is about -85db ref .775v, non-weighted (I measured it myself), and it has 20db of fixed gain. It is dead silent in my system. 'Nuff said.....

It's not dead silent in analog in my system. If you'd like to hear the problem, since we're in the same city, you are welcome to schedule an appointment to come to my home and hear the hiss in mine for yourself. You may bring your own cables to see if that makes a difference, and you can bring your isolating power supply and amplifier, if you wish as well.

Will:
I actually would be interested in hearing the 950 in your system. Why don't you Email me, and we can set up a time etc. soundhound@earthlink.net

OK, I finally got around to actually measuring the noise from my 950 in analog mode. The results are, with the volume at "00db", and the trim at "0db" Note, that I only measured the left front channel, as I would assume the others would be in the same ballpark noise wise.

Unweighted, full bandwidth, re.775v: -75db
With a 20kHz bandwidth limiting filter in-line with the voltmeter: -82db

Hardly meets the specs I'd say unless they are measuring the noise referencing some other voltage which would have to be pretty high. These numbers would be consistent with what I hear, hiss wise.

Using the stated reference level in the owner's manual of 1.5v, the S/N would be -88db, using the 20kHz filter, and -81db full bandwidth. Using 2.0v as a reference would improve these numbers by about 2.5db.

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited September 27, 2002).]

I too have a 2-week old 950 that I use in combination with a tube preamp (Sonic Frontiers Line1)and a tube amp (BAT VK-60). For 2-channel audio the Line1 is dead quiet but in SSP bypass you can hear the 950 hiss. In my case it is not a problem from where I sit but if I stand next to the speakers you can hear the 950.

That said, I really like the 950 for HT.

Will & Soundhoud:

So... what are y'all thinking?

I am 90% sure I'm going to hold on to it. I'll use the 30 days for real world CD, DVD, SACD, and if I get get a hold of a DVD-A, listening, and then decide at the end.

I don't like the hiss, but I do like DPL II, DD EX, DTS-ES, the CES modes, bass management on the 5.1 inputs etc.

Also, I've taken a quick look through the Theatermaster remote manual, and there seem to be ways to "join" buttons at the bottom of the remote to the source buttons (pg 20), for example to combine hitting DVD with DD and CD with stereo. But it's just a button press. Doesn't seem to be a way to map an absolute mode. (I.e., pressing "stereo" to switch from "stereo 7" to "stereo 5" mode, vs just 1 button push to get to "stereo" mode.)

There also seems to be a way to control Main Device Mode (when it switches to DVD player mode when you hit DVD) vs Automatic Audio Mode (pg 21). But I haven't figured that out yet. But that doesn't seem to be what I'd want: when I press DVD, *leaving* the remote in "950 control" (Aud) mode.

And I thought I saw somewhere about changing the definition of the Power button. (I'd just change it to Aud. Then it really would power up the 950, and it's a bigger button, easier to find anyway.)

Hey Scott, anyway, you could create a permanent link to the remote manual at the top of the 950 saloon or somewhere?

http://www.universalremote.com/htm/products/sl-9000manuals.html

Cheers!


[This message has been edited by Kevin C Brown (edited September 27, 2002).]

Kevin:
I am certainly going to keep my 950. I'm not thrilled with the hiss, but in my listening position, it is barely audible. Overall, my Sony EP9ES Dolby Digital processor handled format changes better, and with the Smart CircleSurround box I used with it, it did great Dolby EX. I only needed the 950 to switch my many S-video and analog units. I think that ultimately, I am going to use the Sony (with the Smart CircleSurround box) as my main Dolby Digital processor, and run it into the 5.1 bypass inputs of the 950 so that I can control the volume using the 950 remote. I have an outboard vacuum tube preamp in-line with my main left and right front speakers, after the 950, that I run my dvd/cd player and phono preamp through directly, and have a _really_ pure analog stereo path. This way, I would only use the 950 for satellite TV, and VCR. It's a real wank to have to go through all this, and I was hoping the 950 would be quieter, but I'm afraid that although I'm going to keep it, it has been demoted to secondary duty.

Outlaws, I am sorry to say my 950/755 combo hisses as well. I've been following the board for months (just got my 950 I signed up for in April).

I received a new, post-fix unit so I didn't think it would be a problem. Unfortunately, I seem to have the "real" hiss problem-- not an ear-to-the-tweeter kind of hiss. But hiss that is audible from 4 feet away (surround speakers) and from 12 feet away (!) from the main speakers at normal volume levels. You can hear it even over my noisy fridge in the background.

First I just hooked up the Outlaw units to the rear surround speakers with no sources attached, to make sure it would power up. It did, but I heard the hiss right then and there. I still decided to hook it up completely to the whole system and the hiss is still there.

I'm not sure at this point if I'm going to keep the 950. I have a Panamax 5100 filter/surge suppressor on the way (Monday) to see if this will help-- but that seems like an expensive solution even if it works.

The only source I have is a Sony ES9000 DVD. No TV or other inputs. I'm using all Outlaw cables. DVD connection is both analog and digital coax. You can hear the same hiss whether I have the "DVD" (digital coax) or "CD" (Analog) connection selected.

My old Denon 2800 receiver hissed a little, but nowhere near as loud as the Outlaw. This is a shame because I really like the Outlaw sound except for the hiss.

I've emailed Outlaw to see what they say. But at this point I have to say I'm disappointed. Even more so since the hiss was supposed to be resolved.

If you have additional ideas on how to diagnose, I'd like to hear them. But if the hiss is there with just the 950 hooked up to the 755 and two speakers, I don't know how much simpler it can get than that.

Re hiss: Some of you are talking about horns. If these are horns like Klipsch's, with say 98db sensitivity, you will be "magnifying" his on the order of 8 to 10 db, compared to typical direct radiator speakers. I have owned many types of speakers one being the Klipsch Cornwall about 15 years ago. These puppies were 98db efficient and hissed like a rattler, it didn't matter the source. I was using a tube preamp at the time, and got rid of it in favor of a solid state. I explained to the maker (Frank van Alstine) about the problem and he said he would lower the output of the pre-amp. Voila, the hiss was gone as the preamp matched my amps better with high sensitivity speakers. I think that's what's at play here. High sensitivity speakers are going to show much more hiss using any types of equipment compared to low sensitivity designs. The point made re the muting circuits of other pre/pros is also valid. No signal and mute kicks in. Not sure why Outlaw didn't follow this method, but methinks that if they had, there'd be lots fewer posts in this thread.

Yes, horns are much more efficient than direct radiators. Mine are 106db (!) efficient. BUT, all that means is that the preceeding stages must be squeaky clean from noise and distortion. It CAN be done. Like I have posted before, I have a vacuum tube preamp in line with my main left and right front speakers that has a fixed gain of 20db. It is dead quiet through my horns. Also, in home theatre enviornments, horns are really more common than in music only situations. Outlaw should have realized this and designed accordingly. There is no excuse for audible hiss from more than a couple feet from the speaker, no matter how efficient those speakers may be.

Yes, more efficient speakers make the problem worse. (I have all Vandersteen up front, which are maybe 86 dB, but Def Techs in back, which are 90 dB or a little more. The hiss is worse in the Def Techs.)

But none of those are horns.

And the hiss from the 950 is still worse than other pre/pro's and a receiver I've had.

I watched 13 Ghosts tonight. Couldn't hear the hiss at all with the movie playing. But pause it, and turn my head, and it's there.

The movie wasn't that great, but the audio soundtrack was really well presented by the 950.

"Yes, horns are much more efficient than direct radiators. Mine are 106db (!) efficient. BUT, all that means is that the preceeding stages must be squeaky clean from noise and distortion. It CAN be done. Like I have posted before, I have a vacuum tube preamp in line with my main left and right front speakers that has a fixed gain of 20db. It is dead quiet through my horns. Also, in home theatre enviornments, horns are really more common than in music only situations. Outlaw should have realized this and designed accordingly. There is no excuse for audible hiss from more than a couple feet from the speaker, no matter how efficient those speakers may be."

Well, yes and no. We're talking a mismatch in gain structures here. Unfortunately, you cannot optimize the gain structure to make everyone happy, and this thread attests to that. The gain structure of the Outlaw is optimized for typical HT speakers. THX certification specifies around 90db, so the 950 works great with those. Tube amps (particularly if they're old) were designed for horns. The Outlaw was not. Your 106db speakers are magnifying the hiss by 16db compared to the typical direct radiator!!!

Yes, yes I know my speakers are more sensitive than most anything out there, BUT hiss is being reported by many people other than me who have far less sensitive speakers. Actually hiss is not a big problem in my system as I can only hear it about 5 feet from the speakers, and not at my listening position which is 15 feet. I had to work on the gain structure in my system ( actually it is a room I use professionally as well for mastering music for film soundtracks) in order to get the noise from other sources down. All the other sources in my system, including a digital audio workstation (ProTools) and 24 channel mixing console, only produce hiss that is audible about a foot from the horns. The 950 is way more hissy. I have an analog electronic crossover in line with my main left and right speakers that uses video buffer amp I.C.s that spec out as being _really_ noisy. In spite of that, the hiss is still only audible a foot from my horns with the entire system on, and without the 950 in the loop.

"Yes, yes I know my speakers are more sensitive than most anything out there, BUT hiss is being reported by many people other than me who have far less sensitive speakers."
For sure. But the question here is whether the Outlaw is generating more hiss than can reasonably be expected. If people are hearing hiss in a quiet room from the listening position during a movie with typical speakers, that is clearly unacceptable. If people are cranking it to reference level and sitting with their ear 1 foot away from the tweeter with nothing on and are complaining about the faint hiss they hear...well, you get the picture.

Certainly, your point is well taken. I can't speak for others with their 950s. If you review the board for previous posts by those people, I think the picture that emerges is that the 950 is probably borderline in it's noise performance. Personally, I think they just tried to cut it too close, possibly with basic design, or possibly with using a lower spec'd grade of IC than will be in the higher priced spin-offs of this unit from Atlantic Technology and others. For all I know, they could be using a VLSIC that combines basically all the functions of the 950 on a single chip, or chipset. Then the blame would be with the supplier of the ICs (Cirrus Logic I believe).

I don't know if the spin-offs are different from the 950, inside. As I understand it, the spin-offs don't fix any of the problems in the 950, including any of the easily fixed basic problems. But we won't know for sure what the spin-offs are until they actually come out.

Yes, but it's a dry hiss.

meangene: that was riotously FUNNY!!!

It does not appear that the spinoffs are actually changing parts, etc. Too expensive, I'm sure. It's mainly cosmetics, etc. According to Ron Fone (again) the cost to develop something of this magnitude was outside the solo finances of Outlaw, AT, Sherbourn, etc, hence the "pooled" development. The Outlaw undoubtedly offers the best "bang for the buck".

HTLearner,
Let us know if the Panamax improves anything. Since you are using Outlaw amp and cables, the "system" should be compatible by design. Did you use your Denon 2800 as a preamp? I was/am considering that approach as well, though it seems buying a receiver is a waste if you don't want the amps. I do like the 950, except for the hiss, which seems to be the same loudness in all 5 channels.

I will be working with Scott next week to see we can find a way to reduce the hiss to acceptable levels, but it doesn't appear that anyone has successfully gone from too much hiss to minimal hiss. It is more "hiss-and-miss" from unit to unit or system to system.

Wow, I hope they aren't shipping any of the spin-off units to Iraq: that weapons-grade aluminum faceplate and all....

So what do you think? They spent 4 months trying to reduce the noise floor, and ended up reducing the gain by 3db, and calling it good. Kinda looks that way.

AppleJelly, I'll definitely let everyone know if the Panamax makes a difference or not.

Yes, my first thought was to use my 2800 as the pre-amp in combo with the 755 as my amp, instead of buying the 950. But unfortunately the 2800 doesn't have pre-outs for 5.1. I think it has just 3 pre-outs for the fronts and center. So no dice. I think there was a later model 2801 that had pre-outs for all channels.

Let us know if you find out anything new from Scott. If the Panamax doesn't work and Scott can't help me, there is a local Rotel dealer who is very eager to sell me the 1066.

Indeed. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: it is very ironic that we're even talking about noise in a digital component! "Perfect sound forever"......



[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited September 29, 2002).]

"Indeed. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: it is very ironic that we're even talking about noise in a digital component! "Perfect sound forever"......"

Until we get digital amps and digital speakers, we're going to continue talking about noise.

Thanks Soundhound for coming over to visit and take S/N measurements on my 950.

I wrote down some of his measurements. With the volume set to 0, trim to 0, with the analog DSP mode set to straight stereo, Soundhound measured the left front channel on my 950 as:

Full bandwidth, referencing .775v: -67db
With a 20kHz bandwidth limited filter in-line with the voltmeter: -77 db

I am no expert on what he measured. I'll defer to Soundhound on any specifics of his measurements on my 950.

Despite the audible hiss, my 950 sounds fine from my normally listening position. The audible hiss in mine is not as loud as in Soundhound's system, probably because my speakers are not as efficient as his horn speakers are.

Compentently designed analog components would do nicely also....

tonygeno
I posted this earlier here. The Atlantic Technolgy version DOES change componenets....

Thank you for your interest in the P-2000. Here a few of differences
between the Outlaw 950 and the P-2000.

Premium hand selected and calibrated components in the key processing
paths. This includes the main pre-amp, DSP, and Video boards; All caps,
DACs and Output ICs.

Higher grade Op-Amps for improved Signal to Noise Ratio in Direct, Digital,
and in the Analog-DSP inputs.

Higher video bandwidth at (55 MHz).

Higher grade premium power supply for more current stability.

Lower output impedance for increased tolerance with a wider variety of
audiophile cables.

Higher S/N ratio, greater stereo separation and lower stereo distortion in
the FM Tuner section

Lastly, the Atlantic Technology P-2000 features more ergonomically designed
buttons, and is available in a brushed aluminum titanium or black finish at
no additional charge.

Regarding the bass management, our processor works in the same manner as
the Outlaws. The bass management you are referring to is totally different
to the DSP bass from the front panel or remote control that lets you select
different low pass points for all channels.

Dan Rosenberg
Atlantic Technology

Surroundophile:

So, if sonics is primary, the 950 does not seem to be the best choice. Maybe I should take a look at the AT and Sherbourn versions. I'm enjoying the Outlaw but would prefer to get the best. Is the AT available now?

Thanks

That makes sense as the cost differential of the spin-offs is more than would be warranted by mere cosmetics changes. Expect to see a lot of 950s on Ebay after the spin-offs hit the market. Upgrading to the "A" version of the ICs in the analog section alone should address a good deal of the hiss issue. For the life of me, I can't understand why Outlaw didn't just pop for the higher spec'd ICs and just charge $999.00 for the unit in the first place. I bet they would have sold just as many units, and avoided all the bad press because of the hiss issue. I know that I wouldn't have thought twice about purchasing the 950 if the advertised price been closer to $1000, as it still would have represented a great bargain. Purchchasers of this kind of equipment who patronize companies like Outlaw love a good bargain, but I don't think they are are as concerned with "doing it on the cheap". People wanting a cheap unit would be more inclined to purchase a 'home theatre in-a-box" at K-mart I would think.

In later production runs of the 950, it is quite possible that the 950 will get overall improvements and these improvements will also be in the clones made concurrently with the 950. I guess we'll have to wait and see and compare the clones to newer 950's, when the clones come out. If they share the same production facility, perhaps they're identical on the inside.

The different 950's I've cycled through my home system (one 950 delivered in May, one in June and one in September) have all sounded subtly different. I imagine that 950's made three months from today might also sound different from my September model.

And there are differences between recent 950's, perhaps due to production anomolies. Soundhound's and my 950, were both delivered recently, and you know what, they measure quite different S/N ratios.

Yes, I know that Atlantic Tech says they hand select premium parts for their premium priced clones. But it remains to be seen if premium hand selected so-and-so's and higher grade such-and-such's and increased tolerance blah-blah-blahs in the clones represents a real difference or is, in the end, pure marketing spin, with no actual difference. If it walks like the same duck and talks like the same duck, and has no more features whatsoever than the duck then, it could be the same duck inside.

ICs that are the higher spec versions (they are made by the same company, but are the "cream of the crop" of the production runs) most notably in analog ICs, do have a tighter, and lower noise spec, lower dc offset in op-amps, etc. Now if that would make a difference in the 950, time will tell. My own experience is that the lower noise equivalents make a noticable difference, but don't by a long shot make up for bad design decisions made earlier on.

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited September 30, 2002).]

Maybe Eastech will stop the production of the insides of the 950, and insert premium hand selected parts higher grade parts, and increased tolerance parts, and then restart the production line for the insides of the 950 clones, which would be identical to the 950 except for the premium parts. But I wonder. When the 950 clones come out, maybe someone technical can open one and tell us what's different inside.

That would certainly be possible providing they don't rub out the part numbers on the ICs, which is common when a manufacturer is trying to protect the design of a product. Having two specimens side by side, and having the numbers on the ICs, it would be pretty simple to tell.

Long time lurker, first time poster

Just spent 5 hours doing extensive A/B testing between my 950 (received last week) and my friends Atlantic Technology P-2000.

First some background (yes, the Atlantic is prettier), we tested the two units on his system which consists of:

Pioneer Elite Pro700 HD
Vienna Acoustics Speakers
Rel Sub
Panasonic RP91
B&K amp (Forget the model number. He wants to get the new Atlantic Amp, but it’s not shipping yet.)
All Kimber cables

Since the Atlantic was already connected we started with his unit first and wrote down each and every setting. Then, using my trusty RatShack SPL meter we calibrated to 75 dB. We then connected the 950 up, copied all of the settings and re-checked the level calibrations. All settings were right on except for the center which was 2 dB hotter on the 950??

After a good four hours or so of testing we could not hear an audible difference between the two of us. So, we brought in "Golden Ears" (I don’t know, that’s what he calls the wife when it comes to HT.) So we ran the gamut… Diana Krall to the Beastie Boys, Moulin Rouge to the Lord of the Rings, and nothing. "Golden Ears" didn’t hear a difference either.

To answer a couple of issues that have been brought up here, the Atlantic handles bass management on the multi-channel inputs the same way as the Outlaw. Also, we ran the RP91 through the component switching on both pieces to his Elite set. In each case they picture was crisp and the colors were great. We saw no difference between going direct and using the switching capabilities of either unit.

So, I am quite pleased to say that I will not be purchasing the Atlantic, I’m keeping my 950! As for my buddy, he loves his Atlantic (can’t say I blame him, it sounds gooood ) but his wife was pretty upset when she found out mine was only $899.

Great first post. How long has your friend had the Atlantic?

------------------
gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

Hello Gonk,

Thanks for the welcome and for all of your great posts. They've always been very helpful

He's had his unit for two days. Today was the earliest we could actually get together. Neither of us could wait any longer.

I didn't realize the AT P-2000 clone was out already but it evidently is!

Any sightings of the Sherbourne PT7000 clone?

The Outlaws have gone through their reservation backlog on the 950 so: The clones are coming. The clones are coming...

The clones are coming. The clones are coming... [/B][/QUOTE]

Kinda like ATOC

Applejelly and others,

Well I set up the Panamax power filter/surge protector to see if that would make a difference in the hiss.....and no difference. The sound still is really excellent, except for the hiss audible from listening position-- 4 feet (rears). And about 7-10 feet (fronts).

I contacted Scott for help and I was disappointed in his reply. He said audible hiss from "four feet does not necessarily
constitute a loud hiss (especially with efficient speakers)". He offered no suggestions on how to reduce the hiss.

So I guess he is saying that is expected operation and I should either live with it or send it back. So I will keep it for the 30 days and decide...

In the mean time, I've contacted my local Rotel dealer who is a great guy, and I'll see if I can get a loaner 1066 from him. I wonder if the 1066 has a muting circuit?

One more interesting item-- the Panamax has indicator lights that show voltage level. The 120 volts light never goes on-- so that means the power feed is alwasy under voltage? When I turn everything on (TV too), the voltage drops even more so the 115 VAC light flickers. I guess that is normal?

I certainly do NOT consider audible hiss from four feet acceptible -- regardless of speaker efficiency.

I used to have a $400 JVC receiver, circa 1993. Infinity speakers, with a 104 db/watt sensitivty -- very very sensitive. Could I hear hiss from the tweeters. Yeah -- at about 2-3 inches.

My Rotel 1066 at 10 dB ABOVE ref level just starts to have audible hiss -- at a couple of inches from the speaker. I am using speakers with much lower effeciency now -- but hiss at FOUR FEET -- come on, that can't be reasonable.

HTL- I didn't think a Panamax would work. Balanced power didn't do squat for me either.

The hiss in my rear speaker is also audible at about 4ft, ear turned towards the speaker.

I emailed Scott today to see if they'd continue to work on the problem.

I think Power and Will and now Bigmac have said, and I agree, that hiss at 4ft shouldn't be considered acceptable. And I respectfully put forth, that the 950 isn't meeting the published S/N specs in my system. So either the specs should be changed, or Outlaw should continue to work to try and lower the hiss level *for those who experience it.*

I'd sure be super curious if the Atlantic and Sherbourn uints are the same in this regard...


The relevants parts of my system: Vandersteen 2CE Signatures with a VCC Signature and a V2W sub up front;, Def Tech BP-30s with a CLR-1000B in back. 20A circuit, and a 20A Equi=Tech balanced power unit. The Def Techs are more sensitive than the Vandy's, and the hiss is worse for them. 90-92 dB or so.

115 VAC is OK. I would only start to worry if the line voltage starts dipping below 110 VAC for _extended_ periods of time. It is normal for the voltage to drop momentarily when something like an air conditioner comes on, but it should only last a second or so. My voltage goes all the way down to about 90 volts when my air conditioner kicks in. By the way, low power voltage will _not_ cause the hiss to be louder or softer.

It sounds like Scott and the Outlaws are sort of 'throwing in the towel' judging from his reply to you regarding the hiss. I remember that first they were saying 'ear to the tweeter' was unreasonable, now it's 4 feet. Maybe it'll get out to 10 feet..... Anyway, if the hiss bothers you THEN IT IS TOO LOUD!!

Just got my 950 yesterday. Turned it on and the first sound I heard was hissssssss! The hiss is not volume dependent and is audible to about 6 feet. Does it in all modes - analog/digital/bypass. I'm gonna experiment with different settings, interconnects, power conditioners tonight. I've used a 2 channel PS Audio preamp and preamp out from an old Kenwood receiver with my current system and did not have any problems with hiss.

My system consist of Paradigm Studio 80 speakers, Acurus A125 amp, Denon 370 CD, Sony 360 DVD.

If I can't make the hiss go away I will most likely return within the 30 day period.

Based on the audio hiss and also on measurements made from more than one red dot 950, it's apparently not meeting the published S/N specs.

I'm emailing back and forth with Mike, as Scott is out of town sounds like. We'll see.

3 data points (among others): CBall, Dawg, and myself all have Acurus amplification. All of us have hiss.

So for whatever reason, the 950 doesn't get along with amps that have been AOK with other eqp...

Another datapoint:

I received my 950 about two weeks ago. I have hiss that is audible at the listening position, about 10 or 12 feet away. Same hiss as described elsewhere: starts when input is analog, or when a digital source is played. I am using:

Sherbourn 5/1500A amp
Outlaw PCA cables
Polks all around.

Front speakers are RT3000Ps, which have an effiency of 92 db.

Previously used $300 Kenwood receiver, which did not hiss.

My data point:

Fronts: PSB Stratus Silveri's
Center: PSB Stratus 6Ci
Both sensitivities around 90dB/W/m

Amplifier: Bryston 9B ST

Hiss: Heard from 10'-12' away

Tried different cables, no change.

I talked to Mike myself today. He suggested turning down the gain on my amps or sources, but I have no gain adjustment on any of my components.

I have heard hiss in my system from 10ft too.
I got my unit 2 weeks ago. At first I thought I could over come it but when listening to music it is getting to me.

I have Definitive Techs CLR1000, BP10s , BP2X. I cant hear the hiss in the rears but the center channel is killing me.

Yes I have tested my equipment and I have a decent power center and when I bypass the the Outlaw I have to be really close (inches) close to hear any hiss.

I hope they can fix it, otherwise I will be forced to go back to my AV-550

Thanks

Bigmac, have you posted a review of your 1066 somewhere? As promised, I'm going to pick up a loaner 1066 from the local home theater guy this Saturday, and see how it sounds in my system compared to the Outlaw.

Mike from Outlaw wrote me and asked for how my system is set up, and offered to try to diagnose. So, maybe they aren't throwing in the towel yet.

Data point:
Hiss from 4 feet (surrounds), or 7-8 feet (front). From both digital and analog sources.
PSB Image 6t fronts, 3LR rears, 9C center, SubSonic 2i sub. Sensitivity from 92-93db.
Outlaw 950 and 755, all Outlaw interconnects.

Hey all. I got a very welcome phone call today from the head Outlaw himself, Peter.

A very nice chat. The dude knows what he's doing! A very nice guy too.

Anyway, hopefully I'm not letting a cat out of the bag, but:

OUTLAW IS CONTINUING TO WORK ON THE HISS PROBLEM.

He said that 98-99% of the people with the [red dot] and new units didn't have our problem.

Sounds like sensitive speakers and certain amplification creates/worsens the problem.

No, no time line. But I now feel confident that we aren't being "hung out to dry" and that they know that it's real, and that they will try hard to find a solution for us.

Made my day, really. Like talking to a "rock star" or a famous (in a good way) politician or something...


[This message has been edited by Kevin C Brown (edited October 02, 2002).]

It seems many of the 1% to 2% that hear hiss are posting here.

I have repeatedly invited the Outlaws to come over and hear it here, since they are local (they ship the red dot 950's from Los Angeles) and hear the hiss here for themselves. I've cycled a bunch of 950's in my system, and while some of the 950's hissed more than others, I have yet to get one that does not hiss audibly in my system, at many feet out. The 950 replaced an old Sony that didn't hiss hardly at all.

Did Peter mention anything about the accuracy of the published S/N specs?


[This message has been edited by Will (edited October 02, 2002).]

Will- I didn't press on that. I was just happy that they will continue to look for a solution to the problem.

(I was really getting tired of people posting that they *didn't* have the problem and inferring that there was something wrong with our systems.)

And actually, maybe in most systems it *would* meet the published specs, I don't know.


I am now beginning to believe that those of us that are experiencing hiss with the current crop of units really do have "higher resolution" systems than most people. (Note the smiley face...)

Soundhound measured the S/N on his 950. It missed the published S/N specs. He measured the S/N on mine. It also missed the published S/N specs. I'll defer to him on the details.

Maybe far more than 2% of the 950's miss the published specs. Maybe most miss the published specs. And maybe systems that can't detect the small noise in the S/N don't know about the problem. (Note there's a smiley face) (there.)

I think that, of all the 950's that have cycled though my system, not one met the published specs, based on the audible hiss I heard from every one of them.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited October 02, 2002).]

My system:

950
Sherbourn 5/1500A
Adire Kit 281 Mains

I have audible hiss while listening to CDs from about 6-7' away. Otherwise I am happy. I haven't figured out if I will return it or not. Need to do more listening tonight if Lili doesn't drive me out of the city (New Orleans).

[This message has been edited by Jody Robins (edited October 02, 2002).]

I just wanted to post my system config for you guys, as i also have the hiss problem. Last week i picked up a rotel 1066 and it is MUCH quieter in my system. I am using Swans Diva's speakers (6.1, R3, center) with Anthem MCA2 and MCA3 amplifiers.

Will:
Yes, I would bet than NONE of the 950s actually meet their S/N spec, and that most users either don't have as revealing a system, or don't have a prior component to compare the 950 against.

Kevin:
Way to go Kevin! If they are going to keep looking for a cure to the noise problem, that is good news indeed!

To the Outlaws:

May I suggest that if you have any fixes, you allow me to test the resulting 950 in my system, and measure it under the same conditions I have used for my current 950. I would certainly want a different 950 if it is quieter than the one I have now.

"...but when listening to music [the hiss] is getting to me."

"...aubible hiss while listening to cds..."

i think i have grossly misunderstood this whole hiss issue? you all hear hiss WHILE MUSIC IS PLAYING!?

I can only hear hiss while no music is playing. Others may have different results.

SH- I can hear the hiss from my rear center if I turn any playing source down low enough. And turn my head 90 deg to the right or left.

Outlaw hasn't said that I can't say anything, so... They have a new/different unit enroute to me at this very minute. Probably Fri. I'll keep everyone posted.

They were also kind enough to include another remote, so I can "learn" the Aud button to the Power button, which removes some pet peaves of mine. a) Can't as easily hit the Aud button as the Power button to switch back to "pre/pro" mode. b) the Power button will finally turn the 950 on.

I hope your new 950 hisses less. I cycled a few 950's through my system. I found just minor changes in the hiss. The hiss changes were subtle, not great, at least in my system.

In no case was the hiss reduced to what it was on what the 950 replaced.

Good luck!

Will

I received my 950/770 combo a few days ago and I also have a very audible hiss from my viewing/listening position which is about 10 feet. I tried watching a few movies and in some of the scenes the hiss was audible over the track of the film.

Setup consists of:
Swan Divas with SVS sub
panny RP62
OUTLAW 950/770 and outlaw interconnect
Monster Power line conditioner

Zig- Do you know what the sensitivity of your speakers are?

Hey Kevin,

This is OT but you're in Santa Clara and 'Santa Clara Jim' in the Anthem Shootout Thread is asking for some local help to find why his 950/770 combo doesn't sound anywhere near up to snuff. I and many others are trying to help him but there's only so much that can be done from far away.

Will

[This message has been edited by Will (edited October 04, 2002).]

Thanks Kevin!

Just curious Kevin, are you saying that high speaker sensitivity numbers equates to "high-end" or "higher resolution" speaker designs? If so, I feel sorry for those who own expensive speakers made by companies like Wilson Audio, Revel, Joseph Audio or Aerial, just to name a few. Some of these $8,000-$20,000 (and up) per pair offerings list speaker sensitivities ranging as low as 81dB to around 88dB. I'd list most any of these companies offerings as "higher resolution" in my book. In fact, most high-end (i.e. expensive)designs tend to fall more in the "low sensitivity" design arena. To me, speaker sensitivity and "resolution" are not necessarily related. My apologies if I have misunderstood your intent, Kevin, but just felt I needed to make a small clarification.

Steves- Man, don't you have a sense of humor? It was a JOKE. There are crappy sensitive speakers just as there are crappy low sensitivity ones, and high quality for each too.

BTW, I hope you also realize that a high MSRP doesn't necessarily guaranty good sound either.

If you do believe that, you should pick up an Audio Critic sometime. (Audio mag that's not that easy to find. Article in the current issue about that very subject, with example frequency responses and comments in terms of listening tests.)


[This message has been edited by Kevin C Brown (edited October 05, 2002).]

Has your new unit arrived and if so, is the hiss significantly reduced?

Kevin- Like I originally said- my apologies for the misunderstanding. And definitely- the higher MSRP the better the sound!! That's why I bought Outlaw equipment.

Steves- Coolness. Did I mention that also for value, I'm using Bose minicubes and a bass module with my system?

Man, went over a friend of a friend's place today who just spent like mucho bucks on remodeling his house, and he had a Bose system in his family room. I just don't know what to say...

Kevin Brown,

So what's up with your replacement 950 that you were expecting last Friday? I have been waiting for your post on that.

AJ and Will- The 2nd unit acted the same in my system as the 1st. So I kept my original 950, and am returning the 2nd one.

They are within the same range of serial numbers, so I think it was just an attempt to make sure I didn't have a defective unit.

It's good, because they did act the same way. That's why I posted on another thread that I didn't really think they had an issue with QC or much variation between units. (At least these two! )

It's bad, because obviously I still have the small amount of hiss...

I figure either they will find the problem in the 950, and I'll get another one someday, or maybe the "high end" version will come out soon enough that would be an upgrade for me. So in conclusion, the 950 is good enough for right now, but hopefully Outlaw can come through. (But I'll be keeping my eye on the B&K and whenever the Sherwood comes out.)

Hey Kevin,

Thanks for the update. That's EXACTLY my experience too! Get a new 950. Hook it up and listen. Discover the hiss is about the same as the old 950. It's happened to me more than once.

But what's cool about your particular situation is the head Outlaw himself told you they know about the problem and they aren't throwing in the towel on fixing the hiss problem on the 950.

Have you told the head Outlaw that swapping 950's does NOT reduce the hiss in your system?

What are your thoughts now?

For reference here's a snippet of your previous post:


[This message has been edited by Will (edited October 08, 2002).]

Well I have more than a "small amount of hiss" and only about 2 weeks left to decide whether to keep or return. I was hopeful there was a fix out there already for loud hiss people.

I am not excited about keeping such a hissy unit. If I return it, I have 3 options: 1) buy a much more expensive pre/pro; 2) buy a less expensive receiver with preouts; or 3) wait and see if Outlaw really makes a fundamental change in the next month or two and then buy it again.

If I decide I cannot live with the hiss, I will not hold onto it in hopes that I will be taken care of in the future. I think Outlaw has phenomenal customer service, but I am not going to expect that much.

With Kevin's unit a "no improvement", I don't know if there is going to be any news to change my opinion/hopes from today until my return window closes. Guess I'll spend the next two weeks listening to the 950 and looking more at alternatives.

Will- Yeah, I passed along to Outlaw that the 2nd unit didn't sound any different. For me, it is still good enough. Remember that for me, the hiss is only audible if I turn the source down low, and turn my ear towards my rear center. I'm not saying the hiss is acceptable, because it isn't. But if they do someday improve it in the 950, or I get the Outlaw family discount on the "high end" one, or go to B&K or Sherwood or whatever else shows up for around or less than $2k, I *still* get good quality sound, DPL II, DD EX, DTS-ES, and 5.1 analog inputs with bass management in the meantime.

AJ- You could try to call or send Outlaw an email, and make sure they know about your unit, and that a swap would be out there for you in the future when (hopefully not "if") they fix the problem.

Iggy, Don't keep us in suspense!

Hey Iggy?

Here boy!

I'm really gonna miss that dog.

sniff sniff