How are the trim controls supposed to work?

Do they work per imput? Are they supposed to revert back when you change inputs? Do they reset if you turn it off?

Mine read the same as the calibrated inputs. I lower one and change inputs and the trim stays lowered.

Trim and calibration are the exact same setting, and are universal for all inputs. The only difference between the two is that one plays a test tone for the channel you are adjusting and the other does not (so that you can use tools other than the 950's internal test tone to calibrate the system).

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

Uh, okay. That isn't how trim works on any other device i've heard of.

It's an example of the poor user interface on the 950.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited October 19, 2002).]

Yeah, "trim" should be independent of the cal values.

Which should be independent for each input.
(or some other mechanism for balancing different inputs).

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Matthew J. Hill
matt@idsi.net

I like that idea: different trim settings for each input. That way, a person could goose the sub for movies, but not for music if they wanted to.

As well as balancing the overall levels of different inputs.

I know you guys prob feel I sing one song about the Outlaw, but I have my personal like/dislikes also.
I generally don’t post them as I see certain issues blow out of proportion rather too frequently.
I would love this feature myself.
Plus the addition of a “Temporary Trim” control category which includes the Treble/Bass from the input calibration screen with the trim choices, which defaults back to match your calibration settings when the 950 is powered down.
This way, if I want to adjust a single difficult piece a feature which could be handy in the situations which occur at times. Ex: Input is cable/satellite and the center channel needs a bump for poorly mixed/sent dialogue and as pointed out the situation where the sub could use fine-tuning for a given movie. I could tweak what I like just for that 2 hrs and expect the 950 to clear it off and go back to my baseline calibration, (to start from next time). And with the vast differences in the quality of some CD’s I could see if coming in handy as a quick way to play with the sound on any given disc.

But how much memory/computing power does it take to include all the ‘convenience’ items we’d some of us like to add here or there? And I assume the more adjustment/features included the higher potential for conflicts.

While I'm not intimately familiar with the 950 hardware/firmware, I am familiar with softare and embedded systems. This sort of thing would require a bit of effort to develop the menus, a bit of memory to store things (menus, parameters) but would require almost zero real-time CPU cycles.

It's mostly just a matter of dev and QA time as well as design time.

I agree; in my experience, it's a very useful feature. In the ideal world we're supposed to aim for a flat frequency for all sources. However, in the real world, I've found that listeners tend to like their bass slightly exagerrated when watching movies and slightly subdued when listening to music.

Best,
Sanjay

Or how about the mixers whose theory is that increasing LFE out of all proportion , will make a B-grade Action Adventure or Scary Flim into something more than it is.

If you were to be on an actual dubbing stage, you'd be amazed at how relatively tame the LFE is. That bloated LFE is something you hear in some theatres and Home theatres. The films are not mixed as you might think.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by soundhound:
[B] If you were to be on an actual dubbing stage, you'd be amazed at how relatively tame the LFE is. That bloated LFE is something you hear in some theatres and Home theatres.
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...this from the guy who's running 1,000 watts into 4-18" subs!!

I woof softly and carry a big stick.

Soundhound is it possible for Satellite feeds to ‘Let loose the dogs of” LFE? Can the quality/rate of the data stream (?) mess with the mix you get on the receiving end? Similar to radio stations, working compression and signal boosts and tweaking the feed on FM?
It seems a few times on (TV/Satellite) (something?) has boosted LFE all out of proportion. I’ll have to pay attention and see if this happens on any film I can compare to on a DVD. Maybe I’ve imagined its occurred on different sources and its just a DVD I like to trim back a little now and then.

Lena:

There are of course a lot of 'adjustments' that can be made downstream to the balance of the tracks. I don't know why anybody would take the time on a satellite feed to do it, though. In DVD authoring, the film sound is monitored in a room with the typical size of a large bedroom, and is balanced and equalized in such a room. It is possible, and probable, that some adjustments are made there. I doubt though that they would 'pump up' the LFE track beyond the level of the original track, but I suppose anything can happen. The original dubbing mixers aren't dumb; they make a very well balanced mix, and I can't remember any instance where I have thought they had bad taste overall. When I hear the average HT demo in a dealer, the bass is _way_ pumped up compared to the mix as I heard it. In typical movie theatres, LFE is somewhat more like the dubbing stage, but I have heard them louder than they should be. Generally, the overall sound in a movie theatre is a lot poorer than on the dubbing stage, sounding more 'muddled' than it should be. But then again, I'm used to hearing the 'non-Dolby digital' sound of the original master of the soundtrack.

People pay a lot for their subwoofers, and they want to hear them, I guess.

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited October 23, 2002).]

On movies.

However, as I said before, this desire for bloated bass often disappears when it comes to music listening. I don't think this desire for slightly different bass reponse for movies vs. music is neccessarily a bad thing. Just personal taste. Which is why it helps to have trim controls on a per input basis (or even a per sound mode basis).

Sanjay

though i agree with the per mode trim option, i think it is only the second logical choice.

i wish every speaker was active. instead, you have 2 channel, 3 channel, 5 channel, 7 channel and mono channel amps, and every combination thereof, as formats evolve.

i'm stunned that multichannel amps are routinely produced without volume controls for each amp.

if avtive speakers were the rule...format changes, add the speaker(s). the pre would be a master volume controller and each speaker's amp would control the balance desired for each mode.

all active subs have parameter adjustments built in, the very least of which being gain control.

what an industry. i really don't fault the prepro designers as much as the lack of indusrty standards. designing a prepro today is a nightmare... one that ends up costing us more money for features we have to adapt on-the-fly to suit ourselves.

bass management, multichannel amps, endless formats....we should start a company.

soundhound: new discovery...that soapbox is WAY too high a step down AFTER the pitcher of margaritas (hic)

Bbut....bbut.....but....how could you get TUBE amps inside?????

Yes! I am also amazed that there are not input level pots on all power amps. It's just plain silly for the omission of them.

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited October 23, 2002).]

Powered speakers also provide an ideal chance to use digital amps, since almost all serious issues with this technology centers around poor performance with unusual loads. In the case of a powered speaker, the load is well known and the amp can be tailored to it.

I've thought about actives. Mostly the Paradigm 20 & 40's they used to make. But you know what? I'd have a hard time giving up my two Acurus A200x3's... I know that the sound *might* be better. But there is something comforting about looking at 70 lbs of sheet metal, transformers, capacitors, and the subdued green LEDs...

That's very true, but the fact that the crossovers can be low-level actives, either digital or analog, and the amps can be tailored to the drivers gives a great opportunity for improvement. Not all opportunities are capitalized on, however.

I'd like to see all of my powered towers with fire wire ports on the back of 'em. A little dial on each one with, say, 16 numbered positions. Run all of them into a hub somewhere, then into your processor (or better yet, run each to a wall plate that goes into your whole-house 1394 system). Go into your processor's config screen and indicate what the "address" of each speaker is at each position, L, R, C, LS, etc.

Each speaker also needs power, and has its digital amp & drivers all in the same box. Awesome!

Of course, the only thing that will prevent this (and probably will succeed) is RIAA paranoia & greed.

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Matthew J. Hill
matt@idsi.net