5.1 Analog Input / Speaker Output ?

o.k., so i'm a newbie and still trying to figure all of this. I've looked through previous posts but haven't seen this question addressed. My appologies if I'm rehashing an old subject.

If I buy a DVD-A or SACD where does the sound for the rear channels go? Do I have an option to route them to surround / rear surround (speaking 7.1 setup)?

The only info I found in the manual was a reference to not even use the analog inputs, but instead use optical in to let the 950 decode the signal.

So those folks who are using an SACD / DVD-A, how have you got it setup with your 950?

Thanks.

If you want the 6-channels of audio, you must connect the 5.1 analog output from the DVD-A/SACD player into the 5.1 analog input of the 950. Then you need to punch the "6-channel button on the 950 remote (make sure the AUD button is the "active" remote device).

With DVD-A, you can play a Dolby Digital (less quality) version of the DVD-A audio track, and this only requires the use a digital connection between the player and the 950. (This assumes the DVD-A disc has a DD audio track as well as the other 6-channel track).

Pretty reasonable question. Let me see if I can clear it up some...



If you are using the 6-channel analog input (which with DVD-Audio and SACD is what you want to do, so you get full benefit from those formats), then the surround back channels (speakers "6" and/or "7" in a 6.1 or 7.1 setup) will not get any signal at all -- both formats are limited to 5.1 (mains, center, surrounds, sub).



What you found is referring to the way the 950 handles either digital inputs or analog stereo inputs (such as the signal from your VCR or CD player) in regards to surround modes. The 6-channel input the DVD-Audio or SACD player will be using is not processed by the 950.

------------------
gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

Aren't you forgetting about the bass management for the 6-channel input? I'd call that "processing".

Nope, not forgetting. The bass management on that input is analog, no digital processing involved at all.

------------------
gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

Ah, you didn't mention "digital" processing in your reply.

But also, bear in mind, you can get the "double-bass" problem with the 5.1 inputs if you're not careful.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by gonk:
[B]Nope, not forgetting. The bass management on that input is analog, no digital processing involved at all.
__________________________________

gonk...help me out. analog crossover in 6 channel bypass? i don't find any info on that in the manual. the bass management listed on page 46 doesn't include a different setup for 6.1 bypass. does this mean simply that all the bass management is analog, regardless of mode?

i've always referred to x-overs as passive or active. active x-over = analog?

also, what happens to the signal when you select 6 channel bypass and a stereo cd is playing? appreciate any help.

bossobass

I'll do the best I can. From what I understand, the bass management on the 950 in general is handled in the digital domain (which is part of why stereo analog inputs are converted to digital normally). For the six-channel input, the signal must remain analog or the entire purpose of the input (i.e. an analog "pass-through") is defeated. Therefore, the bass management on that channel is being handled with analog crossover circuits (low-pass and high-pass filters).

If you have a stereo signal sent to the six-channel input, the filters will pass material below 80Hz to the subwoofer channel. If the bass management switch is on, a separate filter will remove material below 80Hz from the left and right channels as well.

------------------
gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

Remember, the sixth channel IS processed digitially. The analog "crossover" is just an HPF; the DSP still handles the LPF work.

Additionally, as I understood it, the "correct" placement of speakers for DVD-A more closely mirrors that of the front, left, center, and two rear channels of a 7.1 setup, with the surrounds being the irrelevant speakers. Why is it, then, that the 950 routes the two rear channels to the surrounds instead of the rears? Better yet, why isn't there an option to route to one, the other, or both?

------------------
Matthew J. Hill
matt@idsi.net

I didn't think that any of the bass management on the six-channel input was handled digitally. I know that the LPF on the stereo bypass bass management is digital (stereo inputs are digitally processed to get a sub signal and then discarded, the sub signal is sent to the sub output, and the original unprocessed stereo inputs used for the left and right outputs). Of course, the whole bass management debate has gotten a bit hard to follow at times...

------------------
gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

QUOTE:
Additionally, as I understood it, the "correct" placement of speakers for DVD-A more closely mirrors that of the front, left, center, and two rear channels of a 7.1 setup, with the surrounds being the irrelevant speakers.
_______________________________________
Matt,

I'm not so sure there is a "correct" placement standard. If there is, the mixing engineers and producers are not in agreement. I think the Chesky Records' format reassigns the classical 5.1 center and subwoofer channels to left side/front and right side/front, respectively. By side/front I mean 55 deg from center. The rears/surrounds are supposed to be at angles between 135 and 145 deg. Still, other "specs" reassign the 5.1 subwoofer channel as a center height speaker where the speaker is over the center channel, up near the ceiling. I don't remember where that one came from. For the recordings I've sampled, all the channels are full range.

In many, if not most, cases, we're playing these discs on a system that does duty as a home theater system. The producers of these discs apparently think that we're going to have a dedicated system for multichannel music listening and all the speakers are full range and that we're going to go through the trouble of moving the speakers around based upon where the producers expect them to go.

I don't have full range speakers and the 950's bass management on the 6 Channel direct works perfectly for me. I don't have any of the Chesky discs but in order for them to work properly on my system, I'd have to disconnect the center and subwoofer inputs from my DVD player and listen to them as 4.0 with the bass redirected to the sub.

_______________________________________
Matt,

I'm not so sure there is a "correct" placement standard. If there is, the mixing engineers and producers are not in agreement.
_________________________________________


there is a standard for mixing and playback of multichannel music discs. sacd recommends it. chesky has good points in his argument, but his suggestions are only that and not a standard. the ITU standard is found here, if anyone is interested.
http://timefordvd.com/ref/itu.shtml

this is the set up i chose to use. i had to install a small powered sub (hidden), connected to the center channel to make it "large". the other 4 speakers are identical, and i have the room to conform to this standard. of course, the rear surrounds are moot in sacd playback. i have a new sub that eliminates double bass.

i've hardly watched a movie since receiving my 950 and completing this set up. IT SOUNDS TOO GOOD FOR WORDS. as i've posted before, if there is a better sounding preamp for this format, i haven't heard it. (sorry for using every opportunity to sing the 950's praises, but i really am THAT impressed with it).

this set up, i've found, is also very good for HT. the thx specs don't work as well, to me, and i find the itu standard more flexible and a must for multichannel music.

BTW, I think that the negative patman may be the mod on another forum who previously had problems with the 950 due to user error?
Then again... haven't we all?

Bosso,

Thanks for the info. Does the ITU discuss full range vs. sat/sub anywhere? While the placement info is helpful, I'm still at a loss to explain why the producers and engineers put high frequency stuff in the subwoofer channel if this is the standard they are following.

Regardless of my affiliation with any forum or not, I'm simply pointing issues that new users need to be aware of.

We're dealing with semantics of what "processing" is when it comes to the bass management of 6-channel input. If you have bass management for these inputs, then there is "processing" whether it be analog or digital to filter out and funnel the low end bass information to the LFE output from the 950. If you think "processing" is only reserved for "digital" filtering, you may have a point. I prefer to see "processing" as altering the input signal on its output.

Plus, my issue with the 6-channel input has shown that there is a problem going from 2-channel bypass to the 6-channel input mode on the 950.

If you are in 2-channel bypass mode, and then choose 6-channel input mode, you will only get the 2 front channels plus the LFE channel. My expectations when I hit the 6-channel input button on the remote is to get all 6 channels to be active when playing a DVD-A or SACD.

This is a bug, not just a misunderstanding on my behalf. It's a bug I can live with, but it exists nonetheless.

My Sony processor (and probably others) do it in a way I consider the best: they use a 6 pole relay to do a 'hard bypass' of the preamp, except for the volume control and output stages.

I have to agree on this one - if you can't do it right, leave it alone. The current state of the 6 channel input is pretty lame IMO. Fortunately Merc found a slick workaround for it.

Here's to relays!



------------------
Matthew J. Hill
matt@idsi.net