Signal to Noise Ratio - 102 db?

I have a question about the signal to noise ratio spec. I hear no hiss in digital when the 950 FIRST turns on. But do after switching to stereo bypass. And the hiss stays after switching back to digital. Others also hear this same hiss (although it is slight), which occurs AFTER switching to (analog) stereo bypass, and AFTER switching back to digital.

The hiss AFTER switching is small but continuous and I wonder if it is factored in the signal to noise ratio spec.

According to the preliminary spec the signal to noise ratio, for both analog and digital, is 102 dB. Here's the preliminary (March 1, 2002) Audio Section spec from the Outlaw website:


[This message has been edited by Will (edited September 17, 2002).]

According to the Owner's Manual

I'm not sure what 98 to 101 dB means here. But I would think the AFTER SWITCHING slight hiss (which is continuous) would add to the noise floor, and subtract from the signal to noise ratio..

OK, I finally got around to actually measuring the noise from my 950 in analog mode. The results are, with the volume at "00db", and the trim at "0db" Note, that I only measured the left front channel, as I would assume the others would be in the same ballpark noise wise.

Unweighted, full bandwidth, re.775v: -75db
With a 20kHz bandwidth limiting filter in-line with the voltmeter: -82db

Hardly meets the specs I'd say unless they are measuring the noise referencing some other voltage which would have to be pretty high. These numbers would be consistent with what I hear, hiss wise.

Using the stated reference level in the owner's manual of 1.5v, the S/N would be -88db, using the 20kHz filter, and -81db full bandwidth. Using 2.0v as a reference would improve these numbers by about 2.5db.

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited September 27, 2002).]

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Scott (& the Outlaws)- Any chance y'all will continue to work on the level of hiss in the 950?

Like others have offered, if anyone is in my neighborhood (SJ, CA), I'd be glad to have them take a listen and see how my system is setup. I still have the Sony TA-E9000ES for comparison too.

Thanks.

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[This message has been edited by Kevin C Brown (edited September 28, 2002).]

guys,

this is why i do not own a 950 any longer. I mean in the real world ear to tweater test if you hear hiss then that's really getting ridiculous to call this "a test". However, hiss that can heard from the listening position at any volume level from the 950 in any mode is a valid test and is unacceptable. With a S/N ration at or above 100db's, you should hear nothing from this unit....

Some 950's have hiss, some less hiss while other have no hiss. To an extent this would be system dependent but i believe there is a problem with quality control as well. Let's face it, the 950 has a higher noise floor but still sounds really good and obviously there is no competition at this processors price point. The "hiss" is just something that has to be lived with i'm afraid....

I wonder if the spin-off units from Atlantic Technology and others which sell for more money will be better. After all, ICs come in various grades, with different noise ratings among other things, and greater consistency, for more money.

Power- I do agree. But unfortunately, right now, the 950 has no competition. (Rotel doesn't count, because there's no $0 way around the double bass on the 5.1 inputs.) So I choose to keep it hoping that maybe Outlaw will further improve it down the line, and then I'd swap. If not, as soon as the street price for the B&K Ref 50 drops below $2k (and it will, 6 months or a year based on the Ref 30), I'd scoop one of those up.

I like the 950. Even though this is a no-no ergonomically: I am adjusting myself to how the remote works. (Should be the other way around if the remote was anywhere close to half decent.)

If I cannot get my hiss fixed, I'll have the tough decision to make: return it like power or keep it like Kevin Brown. The problem with returning it is, like KB says, the lack of alternatives. In the pre/pro arena it is either Rotel (if acceptable) or up to the Anthem 20 or even higher.

That is why I am considering (like I did when the 950 was never going to ship) doing the whole receiver as a pre/pro. The Denon 2802 or Yahama 1200 are good mid-fi receivers for around $600-$700; less than the 950. I don't like the idea of buying wasted amps and I doubt the pre part is as good, but I guess if the pre-outs are fairly clean, it could be a viable solution until something new develops in the pre/pro arena. The $299 Pioneer 811 seems just too cheap to me. If I don't worry about DTS-ES discrete there are cheaper Yahamas with all pre-outs.

Decisions, decisions.

AJ- I have thought about the receiver-as-a-pre/pro too. But I'd wait for the Denon 3803 or the H/K 525. But the Pioneer 45 looks real nice.

KB,

What does the 3803 buy you that the, say 2802, wouldn't? The 2802/3802 would be even cheaper after the new models come out. The HK 525 sounds intriguing though.

The Kenwood AV-6070 receiver offers a complete Home theater solution if an 80HZ crossover is suitable for your set-up. I certainly wish someone would take my advice on this one...

Using the 6070 stricktly as a home theater prepro (not for music) this thing rocks and is as good or better than the 950, Acurus Act-3 or any other processor i've had in my home theater. I've wrote a few posts on this but everyone is saying to themselves this guy is crazy , KENWOOD? I was skeptical too but hearing is believing and for $400ish you get all the latest formats including THX processing using the Analog Devices Melody 32 bit chipset just like the new Denons coming out shortly..... I wish someone would take a 6070 home and just TRY IT as a pre for a few days then tell me i was right or tell me i'm full of sh*t

FWIW, the 3802 has a 32 bit DSP engine, the 2802 is only 24. I believe that the 3802 has 24/96 DACs, and the 3803 will have 24/192s. The 3803 will have more power too, but as a pre/pro, that doesn't matter much. The 3803 will add 60 and 40 Hz crossovers (but still more than likely global).

There are threads on HTF that have more differences.

power,
The Kenwood is intriguing. Problem is I already have a nice after-market remote and the Kenwood operates on RF. Also, are you saying the music performance, even as a preamp, is not so hot? I would prefer better for music, although a dedicated 2-channel preamp could fix that.

Kevin,
80 Hz is fine with me. Also, as we have seen, having the latest and greatest DSP engine doesn't mean a thing if the analog design is hiss-poor. Also I have a outboard DAC, so as long as the thing can decode DD/DTS/etc, that's enough for me.

Someone on the AVS forum said Integra is coming out with a pre/pro for $2k MSRP. I also see someone on audiogon is taking pre-orders on a B&K Ref 50.

I am still hoping (more like praying) for a hiss fix. I will try contacting Scott tomorrow and see if he has a solution.

AJ- Let us know if you talk to Scott/what he says. I could live with the 950 the way it is for a little while if I knew they were going to continue to work on the problem.