got the "improved" 950 today

I finally got the "red dot" 950. I can say without a doubt that the improved version has a MUCH MUCH lower noise floor than my previous unit. Previously, I only noticed the "hiss" with analog channels (VCR, tuner, TV)but now I finally hear silence!!!

First thing I noticed is that I need to increase the speaker gains about 2-3 db per channel.

All I can tell people is to be patient, because this processor IS the best bang for your buck. If you look at my older posts, I was comparing it to my Meridian 561 which is VERY unfair considering the price differences!!

Second thing is that the 3 second on screen delay is now gone??? That was my favorite setting since 0 is worthless and 5 is way too long. I would like to see a 1 or 2 second delay honestly.

I have yet to really put the processor through its paces, but will keep everyone updated...........

Thanks for describing those differences between the "original" 950 and the "red dot" version. Looking forward to hearing about any other differences you find when you put it through more of its paces.

gchon,
Thank you for the update. If you have the chance, could you please tell us if the updated model remembers the speaker settings for each surround mode individually or if it is still global.
Thanks,

I got my updated 950 today as well. My original unit had a small amount of hiss with analog (CD - my only analog source). I wasn't aware of hiss under most conditions, and was somewhat reluctant to ask for a replacement. In the end though I decided to go for the upgrade. Well after much listening tonight , I am thrilled with the new unit! Gchon is right..there is a very noticeable improvement in noise floor. Hiss is now gone unless I put my ear right up to the speaker. As far as I can tell the problem is fixed. I have to give the Outlaws credit for taking the time to get it right (at no small expense). For those people still waiting..hang in there! All I can say is it was worth the wait.

Hmm...

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Matthew J. Hill
matt@idsi.net

I received my replacement unit on Tuesday, but I was out of town until today. I hooke dit up tonight and I concur with everything Elvis and GChon have said.

I received my replacement unit on Tuesday, but I was out of town until today. I hooked it up tonight and I concur with everything Elvis and GChon have said.

I'm gettin my replacement in a few days too. Based on what I am reading, I'm gonna be keeping the new unit... Still, I find it hard to believe that the noise floor can be lower... discounting any hiss. Maybe those who have reported so far are saying the noise floor is lowered because of the lack of hiss.???
Guess I can find out for myself shortly.

Got my replacement this evening. I think the Outlaws are nice to let us compare our original 950 to the new red-dot 950. In my case, they are allowing me to compare those two and also an intermediate unit they sent in mid June. I have to return two (two of the three) very soon, so I'm frantically comparing all three. There's the original 950 (circa early May), and the intermediate hiss-fixed 950 (circa mid June), and lastly the red-dot hiss-fixed 950 (from today, early September).

In terms of letting people compare units, the Outlaws are great!

My initial impression is the original 950 and the red-dot 950 sound similar. The red-dot 950 won't crank as loud. But the intermediate 950 from mid June sounds different (less harsh).

The 3 second OSD is in the original 950 but it is not in the intermediate or red-dot unit.


[This message has been edited by Will (edited September 06, 2002).]

Will: any changes, sonic or otherwise, with the analog bypasses (2 channel and 5.1)? Is the BM still always on in these inputs?

I just received my updated 950 also. Sent them an email on Tuesday and here it is. I will give my impressions of it when I have time to hook it up but this weekend is looking pretty busy (with football and all ). I know, poor me.

I hooked up the red dot version last night. The hiss is reduced but not completly eliminated. (It is at a very exceptable level). The volume is lower for the same dB setting. For me the old unit at -25db is about the same as the new unit at -19db. To me it seems like a calibration of the knob.

Oh, well then I guess I can't trade my 950 in for the new one, after all. I use and heavily depend on the 3-second delay.

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Matthew J. Hill
matt@idsi.net

Let's see, that's 6db less gain - I wonder if the noise reduction is also about 6db...that would seem to indicate that they got the noise down by simply reducing the gain of the preamp by 6db......naaah....that would be too simple (-;

Would you mind letting me know where you were on the original list? I was 17th but haven't been contacted yet. Thanks

Also received mine today. The hiss/noise is way way way reduced. So far reduced, I'm gettin nutin. Help, my new 950 won't power up. Checked the wall outlet (other equipment is workin from it), on/off switch is on in back, even tried "reset" (remove volume knob/toothpick at hole at 9:00 from manual), and nothing. Damn, wish I would of plugged in first/before unhooking/hooking everything up. Ideas anyone??

I received my "red dot" replacement 950 on 9/6. The unit looked as new as my original when it was received. My initial listening to the replacement 950 on a few of my favorite DVDs indicated a better signal to noise level that translated into cleaner sound and more intelligible dialog at low volume levels. Hiss level appears lower, but hiss was not entirely eliminated.

On the "Diana Krall Live in Paris" a side comment directed to another band member was more audible. On "Lord of the Rings" some of the dialog was easier to discern over the music and LFE.

Unlike some of the posts, I did not notice any significant difference in the volume relative to my original 950. There may be a 1 or 2 db difference on the volume control to achieve a given sound level.

In all, I am happy with my decision to seek a replacement and am pleased with Outlaw Audio's efforts to address the problem. Many companies would have discounted the problem publicly and continued shipments, while quietly offering those who were most persistent in their complaints a discount on a repair or replacement. As a former owner of the Panasonic A310 DVD player, I have first hand experience with such practices.

For those still awaiting their 950, my recommendation is to hang in there a little longer. It appears Outlaw Audio now has the bugs out, is ready to ship in volume and the 950 will at last realize its potential.

Mike

Matthew, what is so important in your setup that you "heavily depend on the 3-second delay" ?

"Let's see, that's 6db less gain - I wonder if the noise reduction is also about 6db...that would seem to indicate that they got the noise down by simply reducing the gain of the preamp by 6db......naaah....that would be too simple "

I don't think so since the hiss was volume independent.

TPS

If the final gain stage had 6db less gain than before, the noise floor would be also 6db lower, independent of the volume control. I really don't think they would take this 'easy out' though - would they........would they?

Isn't it ironic that in the era of digital, many units fall flat on the one spec where digital is supposed to be superior to analog: noise level. The Outlaw 950 isn't the only unit by a long shot to be noisier than it should be.



[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited September 07, 2002).]

Yes, there is a certain irony. However, even those units that are "falling flat" (which I take to mean: not achieving their specified S/N) generally have sound to noise ratios superior to what was common with analog. (Which, of course, does not change one iota my enthusiasm for vinyl as a high-res sound source.)

I'll wholeheartedly second that one! I also like open-reel tape, which can sound really spectacular if done right. Some open reel mastering machines which run at 30 i.p.s, and use 1/2" or 1" wide tape and two tracks can reach almost digital levels of S/N ratio. But don't try this at home.

I didn't get a chance to check because in analog-bypass, my new red-dot 950 has the same hiss as my original 950, in *my* system.

The hiss is audible from over a foot away, but not from my listening position, which is much farther away. My red-dot 950 hisses more than the mid-June "intermediate hiss fix" 950. Scott and I spoke Friday. He says the red-dot 950 should not hiss as much as the original 950 does. He also said the red-dot 950 should not hiss that much more than the mid-June 950 does. On Friday, I shipped my hissy red-dot 950 to Outlaw. Outlaw is shipping another red-dot 950 to me. Outlaw customer service is great after the sale! It looks like it may be a simple quality control problem, and Outlaw will take care of it.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited September 09, 2002).]

OK, I finally hooked up and played around with my red dot 950 and my opinion of the new 950 is positive.

First, the hiss has been completely eliminated with a digital source, even with my ear to the speaker at full volume. In analog it is still there when completely cranked to max volume (which isn't a realistic test) but has been cut down by 75%. At normal listening levels it does not appear to be present at all.

Second, I am not sure if this is imagined or not, but it appears to sound better. Maybe a little bit more rich or smooth. I only a/b'ed twice since switching them in and out was a major hassle (but I had to know for my own peace of mind) so I didn't get really in depth, but it did sound better to me.

Lastly, it does appear that it is a quieter unit. After calibration I now listen to the dish around the low to mid 20's while with my previous one I listened around the high 20's to low 30's. Also, I am thrilled they decided to give us an option of zero seconds (or disabling) for the OSD but they should have sacrificed the 30 second OSD and not the 3 second OSD. I mean really, who uses the 30 second OSD? Really slow readers I would assume.

Overall it was worth the hassle of unhooking and rehooking everything up and I am very pleased with my new "RD" unit. Thanks for going through all the trouble Scott & Co. I really appreciate it.

Congratulations! On my red-dot 950 (probably a defective unit) the hiss was still there in stereo bypass. There was even hiss in the center channel, when the 950 was in stereo bypass, which surprised me.

"On my red-dot 950 (probably a defective unit) the hiss was still there in stereo bypass. There was even hiss in the center channel, when the 950 was in stereo bypass, which surprised me."

Will - I also still get hiss in stereo bypass, but it seems to have been reduced from my original unit (I need to listen tonight post 10:00 or 11:00pm, as my house is really quiet by then).

On analog inputs in non-bypass (stereo, PL II-Music) modes, hiss is "louder" than in bypass, but still seems lower than original.

Interesting thing is hiss from surrounds when listening to 2 channel (bypass/or no bypass) seems to have completely disappeared.

Will this comment "There was even hiss in the center channel, when the 950 was in stereo bypass, which surprised me."

My replacement also does this. 2 observations, 1)not volume dependent at all - the hiss from my center is the same at -80 as it is at +10 on all analog sources, and 2) this center channel hiss is lower than from my original, which was volume dependent.

As this suprised you Will, is your expectation that CC would be dead silent when your in a 2 channel/bypass mode? Makes sense, yet as my hiss is not volume dependent, seems like mine would always be there.

All digital inputs, like before, are close to dead silent/never were an issue for me.

There is a very good chance that the hiss you are hearing in the center channel is related to the amplifier and not the 950. Try removing the pre-amp connection at the center channel amp input. If the hiss is still present, it's part of the noise floor of the amp.

Will do Scott. Your there too late this evening:>

Scott - with CC unhooked from 950, hiss still present, but at a very very low level. Hooked the CC back to 950 and hiss does increase. Appears both are culprits in my system.

As I said before, it does appear/sound like the hiss level in my replacement is lower than in my first unit. Its gone from my surrounds. I'll play around with the gains on my Parasound amp to see if I can lower some more. Keep you posted and thanks.

I've had the "RD" unit for a week and have these observations:
1. The hiss in bypass mode is dramatically reduced.
2. The harshness has been reduced.
3. The treble has more resolution.
4. The midrange sounds cleaner.
5. The bass has more slam.
6. The background seems more quiet.
7. Overall the sound is more dynamic, articulate and natural.
The improvement is apparent on all material. Way to go Outlaws. This is a killer unit!

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Helge Nylund

Davis: Are you sure the hiss is a hiss and not a humm? Does it still make the noise when nothing is connected to the 950 but the amp? If so, your problem might be humm and not hiss.

In the following test, the volume knob is kept at -25 dB on the red dot 950. With the amplifier on and the 950 powered off, there's amplifier hiss (or hum?) at about 3 inches from the speakers. I have a Sunfire Cinema Grand amp and unfortunately, it does hiss (or hum).

When the 950 powers on, initially there's almost NO additional hiss compared to the amp all by itself. The 950 turns on in a digital mode. But, when stereo bypass is subsequently engaged, there is more hiss. The hiss can be heard from over a foot from the speakers. The hiss comes from the center channel speaker too. When a digital mode is subsequently engaged (and stereo bypass disengaged), the hiss does not go away, it stays the same. At least that's what happens on my system. I have to emphasize once again that I cannot hear any hiss from my regular listening position since it's too far away.


So, maybe (?) I don't have a defective red-dot 950 afterall.. ??

I agree with those who say the 950 sounds good with regular CD's. Really good. Even loud it sounds good. I love to crank it up and listen. With the red dot 950 though, cranking it puts the volume above 0 dB, but it still sounds good. (Wish there was more crank headway though).

I have my mains crossed over at 40 Hz, my surrounds at 60 Hz and the center at 80 Hz (but I'm still experimenting).

I used to think DTS NEO:6-M sounded better than DPL II-M for regular CD's but now I am not so sure... Again, still experimenting.

Will,
Your headroom would be a function of the amp, but I'm curious, what is the upper limit of the potentiometer on the 950?

Do they still use pots? I'd have thought it was an encoder by now.

The voltage coming from the pre/pro gets amplified by the amp. The original 950 was louder, at the 0 dB volume point, than the red dot 950, when playing the same CD on the same CD player...

I think the point is that typically the limit is found in the amps' clipping level before you 'run out of knob' on the preamp.

Thanks guys,
It looks like Scott answered this question. He says they have lowered it by 3 db. That shouldn't be an issue if as Charlie says, "You run out of Amp before you run out of knob." It might depend on the amp though, like some ultra high wattage pro amps or Crowns, or how about the Sampson 1000 that SVS uses? I am curious to know though if this is one component of the hiss fix.

Will- You might try bumping up the crossovers you have by 20 Hz each. For a crossover at 40 Hz, that's implying that your mains are -3 dB at 20 Hz, and that's kind of rare... But your ears have to be the judge.

That's what I thought at first as well.

Consequently, with my old 950, I put the crossover at 80 Hz. Then later, I tried 60 Hz and found I liked the sound better. Then much later, I subsequently put the crossover at 40 Hz just to see what it was like, and found I like the sound even better. This is for 2 channel stereo mode. Admittedly, I did not hear that much of an improvement going from 60 to 40 in some of the multichannel modes like DTS NEO 6. But I do think there was a significant improvement in going from 60 to 40 Hz in stereo -- note the subwoofer is still active in stereo mode in the 950 since the mains are set to small.

My mains are Von Schweikert VR 4 Gen II's.

I did not like what happened with the center channel when I lowered its crossover frequency. When the center channel crossover was lowered, the center channel speaker, which sits on top of the RPTV, sounded a bit boomy. I am not done experimenting with it, though.

My center is a small Von Schweikert speaker center.

If the -3db is an issue it seems like one could go into the calibration screen and bump everything up 3db.....

OTOH if you calibrate a specific volume stting to be a specific SPL with a meter there should be no overall gain difference between the two when you're done.

...which is pretty much what I did. I used the test tones with the volume set at 00dB and attempted to set all of the speakers to around 75dB. I ended up pulling all of the channels up at least a dB or two from their previous settings. Haven't noticed any difference in volume level since (and since I only occassionally get at or above -10dB anyway, I wasn't much worried about it to begin with).

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

Would that increase the volume from analog stereo bypass, as well as the digital modes?

[This message has been edited by Will (edited September 12, 2002).]

While my 950 generates a hiss in the center and front speakers, it doesn't generate a hiss as far as I can tell, in the surround speakers.

Got the 950 yesterday afternoon. Will post opinion later.

I wrote a while back, on Sept 6:

I originally thought the hiss level with the red dot 950 might have meant I had a defective one, but Outlaw swapped it for a new red dot and the hiss sounds about the same.

Here are the differences I hear in the sound between the original 950, the mid June fix, and the red dot version. In terms of hiss, the red dot version hisses more than the mid-June version. The red dot hisses about the same as the original 950, but the hiss frequency (in kHz) seems to be a different hiss frequency. In terms of dynamics and sound depth between the 3 units, there are probably differences. But the differences are real subtle. There are a few functional differences (such as with the OSD and the volume level) between the original and rd 950 that have been well documented elsewhere.

For those who may have wondered what I decided: well, I kept the red dot and sent the other two back to Outlaw. If it was based on sound alone I probably would have kept the mid-June intermediate fix version, but the sound differences are minor: they all sound more alike than different. I didn't want to keep the mid-June unit because it was probably a one-of-a-kind design.

I kept the red dot since it is newer and may have newer processing code and as Merc and others have said, it may have a higher resale value. The last point is probably moot in my case since I usually keep components a very very long time and I'm not planning on selling my 950 anytime soon. I want to say, again, that the Outlaws are fantastic people for allowing all owners of the original 950 to compare their old 950 to the red dot 950 version in their home, and to decide for themselves which 950 to keep.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited September 19, 2002).]

Will,

I too got my red-dot replacement unit but not for a hissing issue. It was a replacement for a bass issue I had with 2 channel stereo, remember? The red dot unit sounded much better in stereo than my first unit although the hiss was much louder. I could hear it from my sitting position around 10 ft away. I got another replacement red dot unit yesterday but I havent had the chance to test it out since I got home late. But basing from your post, I hope its not gonna be the same hiss because I will have a big dillema. I will let you know what i find out when I do the swap. I am planning to test it thoroughly this weekend. I returned the first red dot unit so I will compare this one with my first unit.

Ricky

There could also be external influences in your system causing hiss and/or hum... such as ground loops or noisy AC.

------------------
Matthew J. Hill
matt@idsi.net

Well, just to get one "hiss-free" post in here.

I don't have a hiss. My red dot 950 sounds very good and actually is a warmer (in a positive way) sound than my original unit. I would think that the folks who were "iffy" on the 950 as a music-only pre/pro would be happier with the timbral qualities of the current 950 than with the original 950. (And my two-channel standard of evaluation is with classical orchestra on vinyl in Bypass mode -- along with CD content, too, of course.)

Not to undermine or denigrate or second-guess the "hissues" that other people are raising here, but I think that some listeners' Outlaw Hiss Hunt may be taking on the dimensions of the Salem Witch Hunt (with similar credibility.)



[This message has been edited by bobliinds (edited September 20, 2002).]

Bob, my experience is just the same. NO hiss here (or maybe hear) at all. One of my biggest concerns with getting the 950 was it's two channel bypass capabilities. I've been a two channel guy for a long time and this is my first venture into HT surround sound. The 950 replaces a heavily modified Apt Holman preamp and I was concerned that it wouldn't compete for two channel music. My fears have been put to rest after a few days with the 950. In two channel mode it is better than the Apt it replaces and movies are just fantastic now.

mojoman, Do you prefer stereo, 5 stereo, or something else like PLII (M)?
DmC

Another improvement that I noticed is that when using the menu, I can hit the "menu" button to go back a screen. That was not available on my last 950 and I thought it was a hassle to have to scroll down to "exit" everytime I wanted to jump back a screen.

I also agree with Bob that the new unit does indeed sound different, in a good way, at least in my system.

[This message has been edited by Jed M (edited September 20, 2002).]

Mojo, you can't know how happy I am to hear you compare the 950 favorably with the Apt Holman. Why? Because my ex-wife got the Apt Holman in the divorce seven years ago. I always missed that preamp and have often wondered how it would sound now that I've upgraded amps and speakers. Thanks to your positive comparison of the 950, I now have one less reason to curse the memory of that byatch.

If you're ever in West Los Angeles and you want to hear a hissy 950, let's set up an appointment for you to hear mine.

You folks need to quit listening to hiss and spend more time listening to music and movies. I never hear any hiss when listening to any source, unless it is present in the recording.

Will, I just want to reemphasize the first part of my statement:



I made a point of putting that statement in because I'm sure some folks ARE ABSOLUTELY still hearing something that is not acceptable. I also SUSPECT that others are examining hiss potential in microscopic detail BECAUSE of the fear of hiss. (And I have been as susceptible to this as anyone.)

[This message has been edited by bobliinds (edited September 21, 2002).]

Thanks Bob, I appreciate what you said. Thanks again!

I think the Outlaws have gone through the waiting list, which means that very soon anyone who wants to, can hear the 950 in their own home, and judge for themselves. As for myself, even though I would prefer it wouldn't hiss, I'm keeping my 950.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited September 21, 2002).]

Well, Will, I don't want you coming over to Westwood and beating the crap out of me.

Seriously, my "red dot" 950 is quieter than my original unit. More important, though, is that I think it's a friendlier music-only unit. The original 950 was a bit peaky in the high mid-range and up. This produced incredible presence but also produced some edginess.

One thing that I continue to observe with my Outlaw 950/Aragon amp combo is that I have never had a system that sounds SO MUCH different depending on what power filtering I have engaged. I have really been able to fine-tune the sound, even with my relatively simple Isobar strips.

I've also found the 950 susceptible to 60Hz hum and have moved plugs and filters around to deal with that (even though my previous H/K preamp in the exact same setup showed NO ground loop hum.)

In a few cases, my guess is that some folks may actually be experiencing low level ground loops in their systems and describing them as "hiss." But that's only a guess.

Still it's a great unit and clean enough that even subtle and fussy tweaking can yield very audible results. I guess that's one of the reasons my wife has started calling me the "Adrian Monk of Home Theater."


[This message has been edited by bobliinds (edited September 22, 2002).]

I would be interested in hearing more detail on how you have dealt with low level buzz. I have TrippLite Isobar and Furman AC isolators, but I experience a buzz when I have my phono preamp connected to th 950. The 950 does not have an external chassis ground post, which might have been helpful in such situations. I have large theatre type horns for the main LCR speakers which doesn't help any, as any system noises really hit you over the head. Do you use any ground isolator 'cheaters' anywhere?

The original beta 950 had such a prong. AND, all it did was increase the 950s ability to humm along with my cable TV... The second, non-prong unit was much improved for me and other beta testers, at least I think so? I haven't missed that humm since...?

I've been up all night trying to track down the phono preamp buzz, and I think I've found a workable solution. I moved the tonearm and motor ground wires from the external preamp to one of the screws holding the lid on the 950. Seems close enough to a chassis ground to work. I have DSS satillite TV, not cable. I've heard many horror stories about ground loops from the cable when connected to home systems, even when using so-called ground solutions.

I do have a cheater plug on my Samson amp -- the one that powers my SVS subwoofer. Fortunately for me, I haven't had a problem with my turntable.

I do get a ground loop if I connect the external TV antenna to the system. I haven't gotten around to buying an isolator to fix this yet.

I've been playing around with the various ways one can listen to music with the 950. At the end of the day, I seem to always come back to stereo bypass mode. I have a Jolida JD-100 tubed output stage cd player and the tubes produce the magic, for me anyway. Very natural, open sound that makes it eay to engjoy the music. Second favorite is PL-II Music with panarama off, width set to 7 and whatever that other setting is called set to 3. With the right recording this can sound very involving but I always come back to stereo bypass as my favorite. I think 5 channel stereo will be handy at our next party.