I know patience is a virtue, but.....

Come on allready!! Maybe you all might want to scrap this project and start from scratch (I'd probably get that version delivered before the original 950). It's just getting to be ridiculous I know that everyone is going to say, "No one is forcing to buy their product." Well true, but $899.00 + good reviews = No brainer (At least for me ).

As you say, the price plus the reviews by owners make this a no-brainer. BUT, I fear that there will be a slew of new pre-amps available from others by the time the 950 begins shipping again and it will be becoming "outdated" feature wise at that time. I appreciate that the Outlaws want to ship a quality product and things have not gone their way so far. They could sell everything they could ship if only it was available. I have not heard of anyone receiving a 950 for a long time now.
Pete

They need to start shipping it again, even if they don't figure out why a few units are hissy. Just replace those as they come up. This is getting simply rediculous.

If I hadn't been on the waiting (and waiting) list early enoguh to get one before they stopped shipping (the second time) I would have given up long ago and gotten the Rotel.

I can say that there is NOTHING WRONG with my 950. I'm glad I bought it. I think most of the people who have gotten one so far feel the same. Why aren't the Outlaws shipping? Why are they pissing more people off instead of winning more converts like me?

------------------
Matthew J. Hill
matt@idsi.net

Sorry, but I won't accept a unit for my reservation until this hiss issue is put to rest and corrected.

Your suggestion to ship anyway is why I wouldn't want you working for Outlaw, that's simply dishonest.

Hello Outlaws:

We appreciate that you've been patient to date, and as the title of this thread indicates, it IS a virtue.

What you are pointing out is yet one more example of the "damned if you do, damned if you don't" nature of this situation. The problem is that we're in a fluid situation and even though we are 99.9% of the schedule for re-starting production and shipments, if we end up falling into that last 0.1% we'll be zinged for "missing another deadline". In terms of another Newsletter or "Update" we can say that the next public announcement is scheduled for the day we resume shipments or the week of August 5th, whichever comes first. Suffice it to say we hope the date is the former, not the latter.

However, since you asked...

We have done an incredible amount of testing and engineering work over the past few weeks and we feel that we finally have nailed down all the various contributors to the "hiss problem". In fact, I've heard the final, updated 950 myself and it is great. We know that this unit will provide the performance that most 950 owners are already enjoying, and which a few are still waiting for.

As to the question of "if it's only a small sample, why don't they just start shipping and replace the defective units", the answer is one that has to be viewed in the context of our business model. In the "bricks & mortar" world, traditional brands can suffer a larger percentage of defective units before something reaches serious proportion. By comparison, in our case even a small handful of units generating complaints has the tendency to get blown completely out of proportion in relation to the actual number of units shipped.

This is already the case with the 950. Again, most owners are happy, and only a very small percentage of the units are causing problems. However, we cannot allow even that small number of customers to be unhappy. The bad news: It means that our only course of action has been our current path of freezing deliveries. We know that this disappoints customers, it also impacts our revenues. The good news: it means that EVERYONE will benefit from improved performance, even if they can't hear the difference.

The bottom line: At this stage in the Outlaw's business cycle, we have taken the more conservative approach rather than continuing to charge ahead. To do so might have brought short term gain, but at a considerable risk. We remain financially healthy and we're here for the long term. Our ability to stop production while continuing to deliver existing new products and develop a number of new ones is clear evidence of that.

Therefore we ask that you bear with us while we implement these modifications at the factory level. Public "heat", not withstanding we sincerely believe we are doing the right thing.

Best Regards,

Scott

Wow. That is the closest thing to a direct answer I've ever seen on this form. And even though I disagree with the final conclusion (better to halt shipments for two months than to replace a few hissy units) I certainly understand the reasoning and appreciate the explanation.

Bstan: I personally see no evidence that you would receive a hissy unit if they had kept shipping while resolving the problem. More likely, you would have been perfectly satisfied, like me. My unit is NOT HISSY and I don't plan on sending it in for replacement.

It is certainly not dishonest to ship a product when you know a small percentage of units will be returned. That's simply common business practice; you simply cannot ship something with a 0% return rate; all you can do is hope to get it as low as you can.

Scott's right, though, a small percentage of unsatisfied customers seem to blow product defects out of proportion. He might even be right that a small, vocal group could hurt them even more than the large number of grumpies still on the waiting list.

------------------
Matthew J. Hill
matt@idsi.net

Scott,

Thanks for the candid response. It's much easier waiting when you know a little about why you're waiting. I'm willing to wait for the problem to be fixed. Personally, I don't want to have to send anything back after I've hooked it up.

Thank you for your post Scott. A few words go a long way for us folks still on the waiting list. I'm glad to hear that you've got a handle on the problem and some solutions in hand. That's encouraging!

Cary

Way to go Scott! In the aircraft business there is an oft used saying, "you only get one chance to get it right". I think it rings very true here too.

I am getting very impatient. However, the quick response by Scott has helped me tremendously to continue to wait. I have looked at the older model Rotel and a Denon 3802. The response today by the Outlaws has made me decide to wait longer. I wish this was the way they had responded 2 months ago, when so many of us thought of entering anger management courses .

AllRIGHT!!! Thanks for the info Scott

Thanks Scott, that's an honest representation of the situation.

Sorry Matthew, just because you're happy with you're 950 doesn't mean those of us waiting want to gamble.

Enjoy your 950, I think Outlaw is doing the right thing.

Scott,
Thanks for the update. Still enjoying my 1050,looking forward to the long-awaited e-mail!
Maybe I'll get one by my birthday? 8/28.
Mix

Thank you Scott!

I *agree* with the way that Outlaw is handling this. (OK, the communication could have been better, but now seems OK. "Thank you Scott" again! )

And I agree with halting shipment until the fix is found for the hiss problem. A problem is a problem no matter how many people encounter it.

Luckily, I don't have a hole in my rack waiting for the 950; just waiting for when the 950 is *ready*, and then will retire my current unit...

I am also ready to jump ship. I have been expecting to dump my 10 year old Sony surround system ever since I got my DVD player two years ago. I am sooo close to just buying the Sony DA5ES, but now new Sony ES models are due out in the next few weeks.

The race is on, will the 950 ship before I am tempted with the new Sony's??

I am stuck in a condo now for the next 12 months anyway, how much difference will I be able to hear between the two I wonder?

Darth

Hmmm. It sounds to me like everyone is gonna get the updated units? I wonder if they are gonna re-fill our units first, or if they are gonna fill all the other orders and then come back to us later? Has anyone sent their first units back to wait on the upgraded units yet?

------------------
Take Care,
merc

Merc - I was under the impression that your unit did not have any of the concerns? If this is true and if so, wouldn't OUTLAW only exchange the units if the user complained of a problem? If my statement is wrong, I apologize.

I was also under the impression that Outlaw would not be returning the existing units in the field that are not defective. I personally don't plan on packing up my 950 and sending it back. If, however, a brand new 950 arrives on my door unexpectedly... well then I'd have to weigh the pain in the butt factor of yanking it out of the rack against having a unit with that "new car smell" again.

------------------
Matthew J. Hill
matt@idsi.net

Another thing you'd want to do if you get a new 950 is to record the settings from your old 950 so you can compare the old one against the new one, with the same settings.

And lest I forget, here's one more factor to add to the equation: To some people, new pre/pro's sound different than broken in pre/pro's.

I think I heard our replacement units would be in silver

Merc:
Yeah, Outlaw is going to replace non-defective units........And monkeys are going to fly out of my butt. Hey, why don't they just give everyone that wants one a free 950? Now there's PR!
C'mon. that makes zero sense.
Mix

[This message has been edited by MixFixJ (edited July 19, 2002).]

If your 950 hisses, why not exchange it for a hiss-fixed 950 when it comes out? Getting a hiss-fixed 950 seems like a no-brainer, even if your existing 950 sounds fine except for the fact it hisses (assuming it hisses).

[This message has been edited by Will (edited July 20, 2002).]

You guys just sit and watch your doorsteps for 950's to magically appear. I hear that the Easter Bunny's bringing them!
Mix
( I can't believe you all don't feel a little silly about these ridiculous suppositions.)

THANKS FOR THE POST SCOTT

Better get these orders in before the Dow hits 5000!

I leave town for a week, and look what I miss! Still reading through the posts I've missed, but I'm going to take a sec to toss in a little cry of "hooray!" that they appear to have tracked down the hiss.

------------------
gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

I really don't know anything more than what you guys also read on Scotts post and the newsletter. All I know, is that until I'm dead, I'm always planning on the next upgrade. Regardless of the fact that my hiss is only audible from 4 inches or less, it may not be so on different gear in the next owners HT. With that in mind, a non-upgraded, non-improved non-hiss fixed unit would be of less resale value than an upgraded one. I see this as no different as buying one of the original Rotel 1066s, or one of the newest versioned ones.

Who wouldn't want their 950 to be of the latest upgrades and software versions?

------------------
Take Care,
merc

[This message has been edited by merc (edited July 22, 2002).]

And I would like a brand new car every time the model years change, but I highly doubt that Acura is going to give me one out of the goodness of their hearts. Every time that you purchase something the clock is ticking on when the 'new and improved ' model is coming out. There is absolutly no reason why the Outlaws should replace non-defective 950's simply because someone 'wants' the latest software upgrades. Get real.
Mix

Will, my 950 is not hissy. I don't plan on replacing it. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Now, if it was hissy, I'd send it back in a heartbeat...

------------------
Matthew J. Hill
matt@idsi.net

Doh! Unless of course, your Acura hissed. Doh! MixFix: Wow. Are you always this irritable on Monday?
And, since it is obvious that you didn't read any of my previous posts, my unit hisses. If I am not mistaken, Outlaw is fixing that problem. So, I want a fixed unit. If that irritates you further, sorry.



[This message has been edited by merc (edited July 22, 2002).]

As Merc says, although the hiss from his 950 isn't too bad on his system, his 950 might hiss alot more on someone else's system, if he sells his 950 to someone else.

MERC
Flame suit on.



It appears that your problem resides in the 950 blowing fuses? I haven't found a post you've made stating that your 950 has developed a hiss problem (As it may well have or I cannot find that post of yours). I believe in the latest newsletter that OUTLAW sent out that the ear by the tweeter listening for hiss test doesn't hold water in their opinion (Unless your listening position is 4 inches from your speakers ).




[This message has been edited by werner52 (edited July 22, 2002).]

Yeah baby! Another fan... Werner, I love you too man!

By posting your own quotes of me, you have also documented that my unit has hiss. Thank you. Since it has been noted that Outlaw is fixing this problem, it obviously follows that I'd want my hiss fixed too. Just because it isn't bothersome now, doesn't mean that it might not be louder with my next set of more sensitive speakers. Why wouldn't I want the very best unit I could get? Are you saying you'd accept a lesser unit than the rest of us?

It is hard for me to understand what is so hard for you to understand about wanting to get hiss fixed in a 950? For more info, go back and re-read my previous posts or simply read Will's post above.

------------------
Take Care,
merc

Werner,
Right on. That guy has a lot of nerve looking for a new unit after the hundreds of posts touting the 950 to be the next best thing to ice cream. It's down right hypocritical, and a few other things I'm too polite to mention.

MM:First, the only nerve I have is the one you just pricked with your oh so polite busybody post.

If anybody deserves the very best 950 that anyone can get it is US beta testers. We've had to endure continuous nasty negative, and ignorant bullshit from folks, just like you, over almost the past year just because we voiced our honest warranted opinions on the 950s we tested. I still stand behind every single 950 word I posted as being true and applicable to the unit at the time I posted it. I could live with the slight hiss that my unit has, but I'll be damned if I have to... we deserve the BEST final units, not the worse. You may believe that no good deed should go unpunished, but Outlaw doesn't.

Now, you have the unmitigated nerve to say we don't deserve the true fixed, final 950, because we beta tested the 950 and then posted our experience? HA! Sorry, but it just ain't gonna happen. In fact, I sincerely hope I get the unit otherwise intended for you.

[This message has been edited by merc (edited July 22, 2002).]

The hiss problem is widely known and, what's more important, is confirmed by Outlaws. If I were an owner of a non-hissing 950, it would still make me a very uncomfortable owner because every change to the system (speakers, amp) can potentially bring the problem up. I thik Outlaws must replace (at least on demand) every unit that's been sold with potential hiss problem. If you wish to compare the situation to the automotive market, you can call it "recall."


[This message has been edited by Asx (edited July 22, 2002).]

I have a solution to everyones problem: Go buy the 1066. It does everything it's supposed to do, minus the hiss. I got mine at a local dealer for $1250, not much more than the 950. I had been waiting for the 950 since Jan., couldn't wait any longer.

I suspect the problem with the 950 is a supplier issue, not an engineering issue, the outlaws seem to be pretty sharp people. I would bet something in the production 950 has changed from the beta 950 (chip availabilty)? unknown to the outlaws until it was too late. This is all pure speculation of coarse.

Don't get me wrong, I own a 755 and think it's great with the Rotel. The outlaws have unfortunatly got caught in the middle of this mess. I truly hope this can be resolved in a timely manner.

Merc
That has to be a classic.
Merc, I am feeling the love.

Honestly, I have agreed with a lot of your posts and do thank you for your time as a beta tester. If you need to return your unit then by all means do so. And long and behold I'm sure you will receive your replacement prior to any of us on the waiting list.

I still haven't found your statement or statements of your unit possessing hiss as deemed a problem by OUTLAWS:

You stated yourself

I may be wrong but if I were OUTLAW I'd be worried how it sounds on your gear NOW. Not someone else's who you are planning to sell your 950 too.

Sorry if you felt I razzed ya




[This message has been edited by werner52 (edited July 22, 2002).]

Hello All!
I didn't really mean to start a s***storm, but I felt that Merc was asking for a new unit to fix a problem, that according to his own posts,he doesn't have. ( yes, I did go back and read previous posts because I don't like to say things in error). As far as the unit causing problems to someone that you sell it to, Scott said that it is not a problem that develops over time. You either have it, or you don't. Unless you are listening through bricks, the difference in speaker sensitivity is a non-issue.
Further, I could say that rather than being lauded with special treatment as a beta tester, we non beta testers might be a little pissed because you didn't find the hiss problem in beta. Everything was just fine! Now it's not? Tough.
And yes, I guess I'm a little irritable on Mondays.
Mix

Honestly? If I had a 950 now? (Haven't ordered yet; waiting for the hiss problem to get fixed.) Even if I *didn't* have the hiss problem? I would *still* say that I did, just to get the latest and greatest. Because even if mine didn't hiss, in a few years when I turn it over for the next "latest and greatest", it might hiss on the next person's system.

Plus, it is common knowledge that Rotel has been putting out software upgrades fast and furious for the 1066, and I do believe that both the 1066 and 950 share the same Cirrus DSP engine. (Different DACs, ADCs, video portion, but same DSP as far as I know.)

Kevin - I surmise that owners of current 950's may do this and unless the event of a recall, would be at the discretion of the owner. It's not like OUTLAW has the manpower or money to validate each persons claims of having hiss on their system. They will have to take the word of the current owner.

And due to no software upgradability, I don't know if we will ever have (As Merc put it) "The true fixed, final 950."

I hope that Outlaw tells us the reason that some units have big hiss and some only little hiss?

[This message has been edited by merc (edited July 23, 2002).]

I would certainly hope that an existing 950 owner would not lie just to get a new replacement 950....

The Outlaws are being very generous indeed in picking up the entire bill. I'm certain some people would take advantage of this kindness even if their 950 were a perfect breed. Maybe the Outlaws should charge 1/2 the shipping costs just to weed out some of these potential individuals?

Would most of the (original un-updated) 950s have an audible hiss from MANY feet away, if they were connected to very efficient speakers, in a VERY quiet room? Or is the hiss a quality control issue where some 950s hiss a lot and others don't (even in the same environment)?

If the first case were true, most 950s are a POTENTIAL hiss problem. In that case, even if your 950 doesn't hiss now, would it wrong to ask for an updated 950 (that Scott says fixes the "hiss problem") just so the "hiss problem" won't suface if your 950 moves to another home theater with more efficient speakers, in the future?


[This message has been edited by Will (edited July 23, 2002).]

Does anyone know why some 950s have a big hiss, some have a little hiss, and others have no hiss?

------------------
Take Care,
merc

Does fixing the hiss increase the S/N ratio? Is Outlaw sending a new fixed unit to S&V so that they can update their published tested specs on the unit? Maybe the unit that S&V received had the hiss issue on their test gear and that contributed to the tested noise specs?

------------------
Take Care,
merc

Merc,
I sent an email to the Outlaws, suggesting the same thing, to send S&V an updated unit for re-evaluation, although they never responded to the email.

Outlaws prior displayed virtues have earned my patience.

I assume they triage resources and emergencies as most business’s during any given time period. I’ve seen Outlaw shelf addressing potential or past Purchaser's questions, generalized comments, suggestions, issues and impatient behavior while Outlaw is in the midst of a ongoing investigation debugging an existing (or bringing a new) product to market.

I have never seen Outlaw ignore a specific customer request to deal with a specific warranty issue in an amazingly prompt fashion. To the best of my knowledge they have always resolved the issue to the purchasers satisfaction.

However long they take to inform, explain resolve or notify about any other aspect connected with their business I can only go by their track record in the past which would be my personal top choice for the #1 weighted priorities when dealing with any company.

I will assume that the ‘Hiss” issue will be handled when concretely resolved by Outlaw in their usual exemplary fashion.
Until that time we are all like the 6 blind men grasping different portions of an elephants anatomy, sometimes too hasty to conclude that we understand the whole of something when we have experienced only a part.

She's blunt but she's got a point!

I take back every word if I came across blunt (as in rude, she says ashamedly). Bottom line was, - I’m chilled out feeling confidant, they will handle whatever the outcome appropriately.

There a certain freedom for me on the Web, I don’t often exhibit in life. This has a net effect of occasionally making me too spontaneous, direct and chatty (in the overboard sense) I forget tone of voice, mannerisms, and a very dry humor are often lost in rigid sentence structures behind this faceless wall.

One of grandmother’s favorite saying’s, “God gave you two eyes to watch and two ears to hear so use them more than your one mouth to speak”. Somehow the ‘two hands to type’ part wasn’t addressed!!

Just ignore that woman over there behind the curtain, Listen to me, I am the great OZ..

Don't take it back, Lena -- I thought it was a good summary of the experiences I've had with the Outlaws. Well said/typed.

------------------
gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

I'd say, it is a good buy with a reserved CC.

[This message has been edited by merc (edited July 24, 2002).]

I'd put money on the hiss problem being more evident on systems with very efficient speakers, and "dirty" AC...

I would expect that the Outlaws wouldn't tell us exactly what they fixed, but might be neat if they at least mentioned what subsystem was addressed...

The funny part? I just switched from 92 dB efficient mains to 86 dB (been running on balanced power), so might have been a non-issue on my system anyway!


[This message has been edited by Kevin C Brown (edited July 24, 2002).]

Hmmm. Okay Kevin.
THANKS!

You're welcome!

(OK, a little redundant I guess...)

Next week baby

I sure hope so!!!!!!!!!

I wonder if Vegas has odds on a newsletter this week?

I bet if the economy gets worse, more people not less will want to buy an inexpensive pre/pro.

Or no pre/pro, I would guess.

------------------
Matthew J. Hill
matt@idsi.net

Giddy Up, allready!!!