More info needed on 950 Fix to make informed decision!

With the latest newsletter saying more of the same about the 950 hiss fix, we are still left with little info (none)about the fix itself and how it impacts unit performance.
Are they changing the circuit?
Are they replacing some parts with better ones?
Are there software tweaks and changes which go along with the hardware ones?
Are they rolling off some upper frequencies responsible for the hiss?
Are they changing the "always on" bass management in the 5.1 analog input?

Is the fixed 950 a better, or lesser, unit than the original 950?

Without this type of info, how can those of us with livable hiss make any kind of informed decision as to whether we continue to live with this hiss or opt for the new unit?

Without this info, I guess I've gotta lean towards a "new and improved" 950...?

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Take Care,
merc

The same thoughts apply to those of us still on the waiting list. All those reviews praising the 950 apply to the old model. How do we know that the new model sounds as good or better (or simply the same or different)?

Hopefully the rest of us will have some input from others with both units. Sure we can all try it for free for 30 days, but all those comparisions with the Rotel unit could be no longer applicable.

I find myself agreeing with Merc yet again - what a difference a year makes.

Some have reported on this forum that after receiving a fixed unit that the second unit didn't sound as good - though it wasn't the final fix that Outlaw is now offerning.

I think its exceedingly generous of Outlaw to address the existing customers first, even though those new units would bring in quite a bit of revenue from all those on the waiting lists.

Talk about taking it where it hurts for the sake of excellent customer service. Personally, I would almost rather have the fixed units shipped to new customers with my trial period extended to whenever they can have enough units left over to ship to us existing 950 owners. That would give us time to hear feedback from the new users on sound quality etc. before deciding. But you can't argue that the Outlaws don't have their hearts in the right place.

As it is before we part with our existing units for a different version, some additional info like Merc's requesting will be very helpful in making that decision.

In particular, customer service mentioned to me that in this next fix, it may solve some of the harshness I still find in 2 channel music. Will that be the case? And if so how will that be achieved? By rolling off some of the high's? Probably a good thing, but I'd like to know in advance.

Actually my 9000ES player can roll off all the top 10% of the frequency range (forgot the actual frequencies). I find this improves 2 channel performance while hurting performance for Home Theater.


[This message has been edited by HT crazed (edited August 12, 2002).]

And I also find myself agreeing with Merc.

I imagine one of the main reasons the Outlaws have created an updated 950 is to adresss the noise floor issue. The noise floor problem was, as I recall, documented in a magazine's specs, as well as by various owners here who were hearing hiss. I would imagine the Outlaws will send the updated 950 to magazines for review, to show its improved specs.

What should the Outlaws tell us? The Outlaws may be in a dilemna. If they say the new 950's have improved specs, and a lower noise floor, then almost everybody with an old one will want the update. Or the Outlaws can say, as they have, that if you haven't noticed a hiss problem in the 950 you have, you probably don't need the update.


[This message has been edited by Will (edited August 12, 2002).]

"after receiving a fixed unit that the second unit didn't sound as good - though it wasn't the final fix that Outlaw is now offerning".

This was definitely not the case with the second unit I received. I had it in my system for about 2 weeks (while my first sat idle next to it), and found no differences in sound quality. Vinyl and cd's thru bypass, and HT sounded equally as good as my first unit. The "hiss" in the second unit was also the equal to the hiss in the first. HT Crazed is right, it was not the final fix that Oulaw is now offering. Hence, I had several pleasent conversations with Scott and Mike, boxed up the second unit and sent it back.

"If they say the new 950's have improved specs, and a lower noise floor, then almost everybody with an old one will want the update. Or the Outlaws can say, as they have, that if you haven't noticed a hiss problem in the 950 you have, you probably don't need the update".

Didnt they really say "if you haven't noticed a hiss problem in the 950 you have, you probably won't". Meaning it would not develop over time.

Furthermore, they have already indicated (via us registering email, etc) that anyone wanting to swap out their original unit with a "New" one will be able to do so. Do you believe they will not honor this? I don't get the impression they operate this way. In my phone converstations with Scott, I've never felt he was handing me a line or something, and I don't think he will start now.

"Is the fixed 950 a better, or lesser, unit than the original 950? Without this type of info, how can those of us with livable hiss make any kind of informed decision as to whether we continue to live with this hiss or opt for the new unit?"

Easy - one, I seriously doubt they have go backward in quality on the 950. Does this even make sense to anyone?? Another thread had the same "thought", and the thought simply leaves me perplexed.

Anyway, most importantly #2, as they have said several times, have them send (on their expense) you a new "fixed" unit, place it into your system, and listen to it. If it sounds better (less hiss, etc) than the original, box the original up and send it back (at their expense again) to them. If its no better, send the second one back (on them) and tactfully discuss your options with Scott. At this point, I seriously doubt they plan on making anyone keep their 950 (even the original one) if they are not happy with its performance.

There may be a hiss problem if you move a hiss-free 950 into a different environment.

I think the Outlaws have updated the 950 so that it will not hiss as much as an un-updated 950 does, in whatever types of environment causes a 950 to hiss.


That would be desirable. However I was under the impression (maybe I'm wrong) that they won't send out the FINAL fixed 950 to people with an ORIGINAL 950 until they send back the original 950 (although the shipments would all be, to the Outlaw's credit, at the Outlaw's expense). They sent out INTERMEDIATE fixed 950's (which are, sort of, beta test units afterall) before getting their original 950 back, but I was under the impression they would not do this with the FINAL fixed 950's. But if I'm wrong about that, please let me know.

Will - not sure about the shipping terms on the new 950's. I was operating under the same process as when I received my second 950. If I were a "bettin man", and I'm not (rather spend what I make on this stuff), I would think the same process will occur. This way, if the new unit does not satisfy you, you can keep the original your probably used to by now. This makes the most sense, and would be, I think, consistant with Outlaws quality customer service I've received to date (IMHO - the newsletter delays, etc dont diminish the Outlaws customer service because in my household we have a phone that works, and I've used it several times to call Scott direct:> )

JGB: Well, then using that train of thought, we ALL should get the new unit. The only way that I could see fidelity decreasing in the new unit is if some chances were taken with circuit design or parts selection in order to gain that high fidelity at the building costs allowed, and, those chances caused unpredicable hiss in some specific systems. In that case, maybe the only way to eliminate that potential hiss is to slightly disable the ability of the unit to portray high frequencies. Maybe, that is why the Rotel unit seems slighly warmer, less revealing, than the 950? BUT, I am in no way an engineer and that's why Outlaw should tell us how the new unit compares to our old one.

JPG: THIS makes perfect sense to me and represents the best of all worlds in this situation.
This is what I'd like to do...!



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Take Care,
merc

Hi JGB,

The Outlaw Audio Update of July 2002 seems to say Outlaw wants to receive the old 950 first, and then they'll ship the upgrade. Here's what it says:

Could they be planning to upgrade the same 950 you shipped them, and ship back your old 950, with the upgrade?


[This message has been edited by Will (edited August 12, 2002).]

Will - had not seen that (havent accessed my home email since newletter sent). Ouch, my "logic" in my preceeding post seems to be in trouble here. I will have a concern sending back my "I'm used to it, but it does have that hiss" unit without "listening" to a new unit in MY system to ensure its not a backward step. Hopefully, before too many people start to believe this is Outlaws attempt to limit the number of people looking to swap out, the replacement process can be discussed with the Outlaws,-- maybe it was a typo in the newletter:>

Reminds me of the original Toshbia 2108 DVD player audio drop out issue - Toshiba merely "recycled" everyones unit, as you sent in yours you got someone elses that had been fixed. I believe with Outlaw, we all we receive "new" units, not a second hand/upgraded (meaning used) unit.

"without "listening" to a new unit in MY system to ensure its not a "backward" step.

Dont want to confuse with what I said before "I seriously doubt they have go backward in quality on the 950. Does this even make sense
to anyone?? Another thread had the same "thought", and the thought simply leaves me perplexed."

"Backward" step re: HISS only, (ie more hiss, etc), as I am happy with my units sound quality!

I think with all the downtime Outlaw has had, that this should definately happen:



But I doubt that it will. (Sigh...)

It would kind of be a major change, methinks. Also might lead to problems in the field with different units having different feature sets. ("well, do this if your serial number is between 101 and 503; do this if your serial number starts with the letters AQ...")

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Matthew J. Hill
matt@idsi.net

Actually, I don't think fixing the bass management problem would mean much change anywhere else.

Just that when the 5.1 analog input is run full range, that the only signal going to the sub is the 0.1 channel, instead of that channel *in addition* to all the redirected info from the 5. channels.

That is the way it should have been all along anyway.

I agree with you completely; that's the way it should have been from the beginning. I'm simply pointing out the difficulties, from their perspective, of having different sets of "950s" in the field that behave differently.

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Matthew J. Hill
matt@idsi.net

Matthew- I wouldn't care, ... as long as I got the newest one!

But your point is well taken.

If they did change it, I'd send mine back for sure.

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Matthew J. Hill
matt@idsi.net

I agree.