950 Burn in time. take your time......

Hi,

I have my 950 for three weeks now, and when I first powered it on it sounded harsh and flat with no depth on CD 2 channel sound. DD/DTS sound was a bit better though.
After letting the 950 burn in wit a DVD on repeat it sounded better after each day 'burning in'. After 5 days there was hardly an improvement anymore. All of the harshness was gone, and there was depth on 2 channel CD music.
Now I have a very accurate Pre/Pro with very good 2 channel music reproduction.

My Advice:
Give the 950 enough 'power on hours'(with music/DVDsound ofcourse) and start judging afterwards. It will be much different than your 950 impressions right out the box.

Enjoy your 950.

Regards,

Reinier Bauer
http://beamer.xs4all.nl

[This message has been edited by R.Bauer (edited October 06, 2002).]

I have heard that often what happens is that over time, your ears adjust to the sound, and so over time, you may like the sound better than you did initially.

In other words, your ears get burned in, over time. And so, over time, you enjoy your equipment more!

I don't know if ear burn in is a bigger factor than solid state pre/pro burn in. But it might be. In other words, maybe the pre/pro sound doesn't change as much as our ear taste changes. Anyway, that's what I heard so it's food for thought.

How does one design electronics that sound better after a burn in period. I guess it is harder than I thought.

The only thing that can really be reliably said about electronics mellowing over time, is that capacitors that are in the signal path 'form' after being on for an extended time. It _is_ well documented that it is better to leave electronic equipment on continuously for the most longevity and reliability. Pretty much all professional audio and/or video installations I've seen leave their equipment on continously. This was especially true with vacuum tubes. Probably wouldn't do much for your power bill though. There _might_ be some truth that some components could sound better after being on for a week or so - it's not something I would completely rule out. For the record, I do leave my 950 on continously, but more for the reason that I'm too lazy to turn it on and off all the time.

It _is_ also well documented that ears are very easily fooled, probably more so than our eyes. If this was not the case, things like Dolby Digital and MP3 wouldn't work at all.

And besides, don't MOTORCYCLES get better with age???


[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited October 06, 2002).]

Well engines do require break in and how you break an engine in will define how it works or lasts in the future. A fast break in usually means a faster, less reliable engine. A slow over time, reduced RPM break in usually means a longer lasting engine, with tighter tolerances, but a little less willing to rev freely. A compromise is usually best. A break in period that sets the compression rings with undue friction and heat changing other critical components.

What I worry about more is not the initial break in of the 950, but having it and the other components in a closed AV rack were the heat can get higher than sitting out side of the AV rack. This, I know, is outside of the original design specifications. I feel I need to circulate more air in the AV component rack without drawing dust into the cabinet. Any suggestions?

I know that the car dealers used to advise breaking in a car for the first so-and-so many miles. But the last car I got, the dealer said that wasn't necessary.

I also know that some brands of speakers when new definitely change over the first few months, as a result of break in. But solid state pre/amps maybe don't change that much over the first few months. Although I have heard in the past that some solid state pre/amps sound better if they are kept on continuously. Same with solid state amps.

Although the instant-on feature of the 950 (just like my TV has) may mean it is on always, anyway, at least to some extent, as long as it's plugged in.

MeanGene: my, my, I was referring to _classic bikes_ getting better over time. I didn't mean to start a thread on automotive maintenance (-:

As far as the heat goes, I solve the problem of enclosed space with tube amps burning away by having an air-coditioning duct go to the closet that they're in. You also might be able to find a 'muffin fan' at an electronics retailer. If you go this route, you may have to put a series resistor in series with it to slow the fan down so it won't make as much noise. A computer fan might work also, but you'd have to rig up a power supply for it. Good luck.



[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited October 06, 2002).]

The circuits that have to do with sound quality or lack of it are probably powered down when the 950 is in sleep mode. They would probably have just enough circuitry alive to respond to the green power button being pressed.

By the way, have you had a compression check on the cylinders in your car lately?? (-:

Maybe what we need in the 950 is a temp guage. A digital read out of the temp of certain critical components. We could then tell if we are running it to hard, haven't let it warm up enough, etc. My VCR had a dew indicator telling me if my kids spilled something into it.

What am I saying, I think I need to get back on that bike again. :-)

You could get one or two of the new breed of computer case fans that have a dBA way less than the native hiss level of the best 950. Get a wall plug type transformer (12v DC with enough amperage for the fan). You could even get a cheapo relay from Radio Shack and have the fan be controlled by the 950's remote output. Even if you can't put a hole in your enclosure you could mount the fan in the top rear of enclosure facing forward. That would create a kind of circular turbulence (in at the botttom out at the top) that is probably all you need.

This topic is going in a 'slightly' different direction than what I hoped for ;-)

I am aware of the fact that one ('s ears) can get used to a different sound during some time, but when I mentioned the lack of depth and and harshness I found it out with simple A to B comparison with my old DAC + preamp. It is also well known that (electrolytic) capacitors tend to 'perform' better after 'some' working hours. I was hoping that other people have found similar results. My remark was also aimed at people who (mis)judged their 950 immediately after unpacking. Problem is, this 'evolution' occurs only once, and cannot be repeated again.
Loudspeakers exhibit the same problem, due to the suspension of the drivers beeing a bit 'stiff' and need time to reach their final 'stiffness'.
So anybody else want to let know after how much hours of playing time their 950 reached its maximum in audio-performance? I still would like to hear from other people.

Regards,

Reinier Bauer
http://beamer.xs4all.nl
P.S. my car is running fine!

I agree with what you are saying Reinier in that a little time on the 950 may make a difference. I did notice some of what you are saying when I first installed the 950. But any "harsh and flat with no depth" sounds went away after calibration, small changes in speaker placements, and some other minor room tweaks. I attributed any changes I noticed to the above, but I would not rule out the "burn-in" theory. I'm on the fence when it comes to this issue, though, I just don't know.

"This topic is going in a 'slightly' different direction than what I hoped for ;-)"

It seems all over the net 950 threads never go the direction you intended. At least you said it with a smile!

I wonder if a little bit of current might also run all the time through some other circuits when in stand by mode, as is done for TV's, or not.

I don't know anything about capacitors or internal combustion engines, but I can say my 950 sounds better 2-3 weeks after I got it. It wasn't in continuous service, so I can't give you hours. I can also say this is consistent with my experience with a number high quality CD players--you open the box turn it on and think "what have I done?" and after a few weeks they smooth out.

I have heard stories where dealers refuse to take returns until after you listen for a few weeks because they think as you listen more to the electronics, you will like it more. The theory being the ear likes sounds it is familiar with and recognizes.

Another spin is the ear over time gets "educated" to better sound. The ear "learns" to like familiar sounds.

Let's not forget the nose. If something smells bad at first the nose is offended. Later, the nose loses sensitivity to the smell.

It's a real blessing when around smelly diapers!

[This message has been edited by Will (edited October 07, 2002).]

My 950 sounds better after 2 weeks, because I finally figured out a lot of the quirks the remote has...

Sorry I get distracted easily. I guess if I had a 950 for awhile and then traded it in for a red dot or something, I would be able to hear a difference. But when I got my 950 I spent a lot of time trying different things, settings, cables, speaker placement, trying to figure out the remote, etc. I don't think I had the where-with-all during all of this to notice a change, that I believe, would be very subtle. If you add to the equasion that the change occurs over many hours of operation and the possiblity that some people may have changed out additional components such as DVD players and amplifiers. Well, I don't think you're going to find many who notice this difference, although I am sure it exists to some degree.

Way OT: The reason your "dealer friend" said to not worry about breaking in the car is the motor is cold run in at the factory. This solves many of the issues related to valve seating etc since they run a specific set of liquids in the engines for a set amount of time. Say 12 hours. Then put in the normal liquids, gas it up and run on a dyno. Then put the engine in the chassis and drive it on a test track.

In the old days, you might even find machining shavings in the oil or in other places when you get your car.

As far as breakin for equipment goes. I think there is a definite difference in sound new vs been there for a while. I just turn it all on, leave, and come back 3 days later after trips and it sounds great.

"after burning it in with a dvd on repeat..."

has anyone checked the temp of their 950 who leaves it on like that? mine seems to run HOT. i keep it in standby when not in use for this reason.

Bosso:
I leave my 950 on continously (not in standby) and it gets warm, but not too hot to touch, like a power amp might be. It is dissapating 45 watts of power (from the spec sheet) so I would make sense that it would get warm. Having a DVD playing on repeat I would think would make no difference in the heat, but I've never tried that either. I leave it on continously because:

1) I'm basically lazy.

2) If it _is_ going to sound better by being left on, then I'm covered.

3) There's the stability thing. Electronics generally like being left on continously, avoiding thermal cycling. The circuits get nice and stable, especially things like the DACs, and as a result, the longevity is enhanced, and that can't hurt the sound either.

4) I'm basically lazy.

This isn't just spin. Neuronal adaptation at many time scales to changes in auditory stimuli has been demonstrated in many areas of the brain (primary auditory cortex, medial geniculate nucleus of the thalamus, inferior colliculus, etc.) in several species (from mice to monkeys, just considering mammals). Whatever else your electronics may be doing, your brain is definitely "burning in."

Great,

Now when I get my new gear I'm going to need a whole lot more lighter fluid. How long to I have to burn my gear to get it to sound good...and where should I go in the city to burn my gear in. I know of a few public parks with bar-b-que pits, but I dont know if I want a $3,000 system out in the open like that...especialy if I need to burn it in for a day or two.

Jason

Just _please_ stay away from our National Forests when you decide to 'burn in' your equipment!! (-:

"I know that the car dealers used to advise breaking in a car for the first so-and-so many miles. But the last car I got, the dealer said that wasn't necessary."

Will - that dealer is a wanker. While mfg tolerances are probably better on cars than 30 years ago, it still pays to break them in nicely (limit revs, vary speed, etc.)

If you go talk to a decent mechanic or a dealer of higher end performance cars, they will tell you it's worthwhile (although, yes, I guess it's not "necessary"). Your engine will work better. I have broken in every new car (or engine) I've had (at least a dozen) and my mileage has consistently been better than other people I talked to with similar cars, and it sure wasn't from my driving style.

Back on topic - I asked my dad what he thought about burn-in on SS audio stuff, expecting his "what a stupid question" face (he's a PhD in solid state physics), but to my surprise , nope. He mentioned that the radar arrays on the naval ships he served on were left on for days before final calibration (far longer than just warmup) as they would otherwise drift, and the process had to be repeated after even a brief power-off. Sort of an argument for both leaving your stuff on and for burn-in.

BB

edit: Oh and he doesn't give a rat's *** about high end audio, the years in the Navy left a string of big holes in his hearing response.

[This message has been edited by Brandon B (edited October 10, 2002).]

For those of us that have had the Red Dot experience, its been an unusual opportunity to prove or disprove the whole break-in thing to ourselves. How many times will you get a component to break in, and then later get a (nearly) identical unit to start over again with?

Personally, I was able to notice both types of break-in occuring - my ears AND the 950. Being used to the warmer (and maybe bloated) sound of my old Rotel Prepro, I initially found the 950 to be harsh and sterile. After a month in my system, I found the harshness to pretty much go away.

When the Red Dot unit arrived, I expected again to hate the sound for a few weeks. And I did - though not as much as the first time out. And now that I've had the Red Dot in my system for a few weeks, the perceived harshness has again gone, and I prefer it to the sound of the original for music especially.

Lesson? Most audio components do in fact noticeably (and some times remarkably) benefit from a break in period, and the 950 is no exception. But also I've had as objective a lesson as I'll ever have in how much the ear also needs to break-in and re-orient itself.

I would say when going with equipment of completely different sonic character, the break-in breakdown might be something like 70% ear and 30% component.

[This message has been edited by HT crazed (edited October 10, 2002).]

Can do...

As a matter of fact, I'l probibaly use one of the classrooms that I teach in when I "BURN IN" my equipment. The marching band that I teach had an over night trip to SD. We held an overnight movie viewing (5 movies...12 hours...). I hauled my entire system over to the local college, and set it up in a 30-30 foot room. Needless to say a few of the gents became some pretty big HT buffs after the "demo".

I wouldn't mind doing it again when my outlaw gear comes in....although I may need some help with the 770...heck, I may need to re-inforce the suspension in my car for that beast.

Jason

Good Luck! Maybe invest in a fork lift??

Nah...

I'll just have a moving company stop by.

Why is it that people who believe electronics actually burn in always believe they sound better after a burn in period, and never worse?

Some of use don't believe in burn in at all for electronics. (For speakers, definately, but not for ICs.)

I work in a semiconductor fab. We don't do any special "burn in" for testing chips when they come out of the factory.

In fact, "time at temperature" is what we use for accelerated life testing. To failure. But people will believe what they want to believe...

Probably for the same reason that the higher priced component always gets a better review in the rags than the less expensive one. Or that a new audio format _always_ sounds better than the one it replaced.

OT warning.

Cool Kevin! What fab is in the states? IBM? (ASIC designer myself...)

Cary

jcmccorm- 10 years at Nasty, I mean National, and now 2 years at a little bitty placed called Micrel (we compete with companies like Maxim, Linear Tech, AMCC, PMC Sierra). Analog, mixed signal stuff.

Cool Kevin. I like Micrel. I designed in several of their voltage regulators onto PCBs this year. You da man!

Cary