LFM-1 Questions

As a proud and extremely happy owner of a 950/770 combo and matching interconnects, I'm once again looking to Outlaw Audio for my next home theater purchase. I have a few questions about the LFM-1. Does anyone know the name of the manufacturer that supplies the driver for the LFM-1? The amplifier? Is the cabinet made of MDF thicker than 3/4"? What is the cabinet finished with?

OK, so I've seen the similarities with the HSU Research subs. Can someone tell me how the LFM-1 differs from these subs. I understand that HSU consulted on the project. Also, do I get family pricing if I purchase the LFM-1?

I got my LFM yesterday and hooked her right up with the bonus sub cable Outlaw included. Based on the few hours of listening I've managed so far, the sub is terrific adding that deep, satisfying bass that my Mackies couldn't really reproduce. It's a subtle improvement. I'm looking forward to listening to material that has dedicated .1 information. Right now, out of the box, I'm bypassing the internal crossover and I've set the crossovers in the 950 to 60 cps (along with the control on back of the lfm.) Oh, and I've set the volume control of the lfm on "5" whatever that means. This weekend it'll be time to whip out the Radio Shack meter to balance the system.

The lfm is manufactured in China and the center of the 12" driver has the Outlaw logo on it. Beautiful piece of furniture, btw.

My immediate first impression? Terrific product!

Jay

Jay, I would be very interested in your experience with the Mackies (HR824s I assume). I also have a pair of them and they are fabulous monitors. I have been thinking of using them in my new HT.

Could you tell us what you use for your center channels and surrounds? Have you had any problem with long cable runs?

Thanks

Philip

China! It's made in China?!

Don't know about the rest of you out there but I personally avoid anything made in China - at all costs. (This of course includes 95% of the products carried by Mall Wart.) Heck I even inspect the labels on boxer shorts before buying - just to make sure that it was not made in China.

Why?

1. It's a political thing; and

2. Everything I've ever (mistakenly) bought that was made in China has been crap.

I checked out all of the Outlaw web info on the lfm and if you blow up page 4 of the owner's manual pdf, sure enough there's the "Manufactured in China" printed on the rear plate. Dang! Talk about lunchbag letdown!

So all of a sudden I break out in a cold sweat. What about my Model 950? Safe! Just checked the pdf of the owner's manual for it and its "Made in Malaysia". Big sigh of relief!

This will teach me to be even more vigilant in future.

Regards.

Jeff Mackwood

Ok. I've just had a great discussion with Peter from Outlaw (they do read these posts) and he walked me through the whole design and development process for the LFM-1 - including all of the ins and outs of sourcing the product from a Chinese factory.

It sounds to me like the Outlaws are well on top of all of the quality issues that would normally cause me great grief about Chinese products. My anxiety level has dropped several notches and I'm back to considering the LFM-1 as a possible future purchase.

But only this one time!

Jeff Mackwood

ps. This will become only the second exception to my never knowingly buying a Chinese-made product rule. The first is of course Tsing Tao beer - without which no Chinese food should ever be consumed. Mind you it's only because the Germans set up the brewery in the first place (over 150 years ago - I think.)

Made in China? I am relieved becuase I have made a deliberate decision to not buy anything from France. My personal boycott. As far as China goes it is the Japan of the 1970s when it comes to moving up the manufacturing food chain.

Philip,

I was running a pair of Mackie 824s for my home studio when it hit me that they sounded really ballsy and well balanced (as monitors should). I just got a third one for the center channel but I'm using a pair of Alesis powered monitors as surrounds. The Alesis' are far inferior! In fact, once you're using a pair of the Mackie's up front you won't be satisfied with anything inferior. It's too bad 'cause those babies cost $579 at Guitar Center. (That's each!) OTOH, one don't have to mess with separate amps. (By the way, IMHO the new, smaller Mackies don't have the same sound. Caveat emptor! Also, the center channel Mackie isn't needed...save your cash.)

You asked about cables. I had the nice guy at WickedCables.com make me custom length cables. Unfortunately, you won't be able to use the xlr input on the Mackies because the 950 only has RCA outs. My cables are terminated with RCA males and phone plug males. (I've petitioned the Outlaw guys to include balanced xlr outs on the next 950.)
It is a joy to listen to, btw!

Jay

Jeff,

It is getting harder and harder to buy ANYTHING not made in China. Take a close look at most Sony products, for example. Hey, don't blame me...I didn't vote for Dubya! I think the 21st Century will belong to China...give 'em fifty years.

Jay

Raider,

I decided to boycott certain French (as in France) products years and years ago - when they nuked some more sea turtles in the South Pacific. Any French wine, not purchased in France, is one such item. (The Province of Ontario, where I live, is the world's largest purchaser of French wine in the world, through the Liquor Control Board of Ontario. I consider it my Holy Grail to approach every LCBO store manager and berate them until they reduce the shelf space dedicated to French wine. Baby steps!) However when I am in Paris I readily indulge - mostly because you can't buy anything but French wine there!

Regards.

Jeff Mackwood

ps. without getting too deeply into the politics of the whole US French boycott thing, I find it amazing that it only took the US a couple of centuries to learn to hate the French - without who's assistance they probably would never have been able to rid thmselves of the Brits - with whom they are now best buddies. Oh well, geopolitics was never my forte. (Oops - dang French word!). And God Save the Queen!

ps. to all of my French-Canadian friends and colleagues: definitely not directed to you or Quebec. It's France. Nous restons amis!

something made in china is not in and of itself junk, it is just a less expensive place to make a product so you thank whoever had their product manufactured in china because they just saved you a bunch of money. china has gotten a bad rap in the past because they have made some cheap stuff, but i look at a lot of electronics and i see many (all different qualities) made in china and the ones you suspect are junk before you find where they are made are usually the ones that are junk, and the ones that you suspect are nice are still nice eventhough they are made in china.

My new Tektronix digital o'scope was made in China, as was my Belkin computer UPS. Both products seem to be high quality.

Companies are moving production to China and other countries to save $$. The labor costs are a lot less and they don't have to put up with pesky envoronental and labor regulations to the extent that they would have in the U.S.

Strange, though, as companies "export" jobs to overseas, they still want to keep their U.S. customer. And I don't see any upper management exporting their own jobs overseas.

Paul

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the 1derful1

I wonder at what point it will be when we as a nation have exported enough jobs so as to cause us not to be able to afford anything, because we are not working!

I think the executives of some compainies don't grasp this obvious fact. It matters little how affordable products made in China are, if nobody here had a job to be able to afford them. My prediction is that in 50 years, China will be outsourcing it's manufacturing to the USA because we will all be unemployed and willing to work for peanuts in order to eat.

Mark my word - we will become a 3rd world country if this continues.

I suppose a North American manufacturer has at least two choices, which is the issue: make-it-at-home-for-more or make-it-for-less-elsewhere. The majority of consumers will choose to buy-it-for-less (unless there are obvious and great quality issues) and the majority of people working will seek to earn more. If I were selling a model 54004 for $899, made-for-less-elsewhere, or a model 54005 for $1099, essentially the same as the 54004 but made in North America, which would you buy? If you were a builder, would you like to build the 54005, or the 54004 and earn half as much as building the 54005? If I were selling, and I was willing to put up with the hassle, I suppose I could sell both models and let each consumer make up their own mind.

To many people it's a moot point - their jobs were outsorced overseas, and they can't afford to buy much of anything. It's a slippery slope of a problem that I am not sure there is a solution to.

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited January 14, 2004).]

A decade, ago most people didn’t know what “dot com” jobs are. Little before that, a position called “IT personnel” was not understood as it is today. Past two decades, Bill Gates’ effort has made many people to have new type of jobs and many became able to retire early in this country. If you go back further, there were Wright brothers and Thomas Edison’s effort that gave a tremendous boost to the nation. What about Andrew Carnegie’s steel industry. New jobs are being created left and right in North America and this is nothing new. Perhaps free enterprise is a good system. In 50 years, we may be doing the type of work that other countries have not yet grasped. One possible example may be harnessing the energy source from our solar system which could create a whole new line of jobs.

Speaking of our solar system, wonder if any parts in that Mars Rover was made in China…

"...wonder if any parts in that Mars Rover was made in China..." : Spiker

No, China was too expensive, Nasa got some of the parts from Mars and had them shipped to the U.S. and then the completed vehicle was then sent to Mars.

Seriouly, so many types of consumer equipment has been made overseas for so long that, unless a customer is willing to spend MUCH more for high-end type of equipment, there is not the option of buying something that was "made in the USA". Even the US military gets some of their uniforms from China.

I just learned that Levi no longer makes any of their jeans in the USA: their last US factories closed late last year. I am in a somewhat difficult situation because I have always bought Levis BECAUSE they were made in the US (and of course they are of good quality and they look fabulous on my lean, taught, muscular bod. (wink-wink, ha-ha) Now, I'll have to look for some other (probably niche type) blue jeans mfr. in the US.

I would have liked Levi to have kept one factory open in the US, even if they had to charge more (maybe even significantly more) for these products.

I realize that the vast majority of US comsumers want lower prices, and it doesn't matter that OTHER people will lose their jobs. Of course, things seem different when THEIR job is sent overseas. Maybe we should outsource more CEO and politician jobs overseas. The people making the decisions to outsource are not at risk of losing their jobs. And Americans will consider a McJob a high-end career.

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the 1derful1

North America, as in Mexico...

In much the same way western countries set up fine high tech plants in China today. It is all about maintaining the standard, the location is academic.
Better strip your pure American cars apart, and find all parts made in China, or heaven forbid, even France...!

Ok!! What does all this talk of outsourcing and China have to do with subwoofers?

,US and Canada. Plus, jobs for the Mexicans in US as well.

I don't buy anything made outside of New Jersey, except for Georgia (where I have family), Texas (cause they have a cool flag), and Oregon (I went to school there).

My house is pretty sparse, and I dont have shingles yet, but a little water is well worth it to make sure I only support my own little niche of the world!

Vive La Competition! If I start supporting other countries, pretty soon they may have more than me, and I can't have that!

Oh yeah, subwoofers... They sound neat, but I dont think that the wires are made by anyone in my family.

- Just playing Devil's Advocate.


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People give People a bad
name

Templar, I have the greatest respect for you. I've said it before and I will say it again, if you don't speak my language or have a funny accent I would just prefer you to starve to death; homeless without a job. USA,USA,USA,USA,USA!!! After all only Americans are people (and thats just including the United States, not the other 20 countries that make up America).

Some people need to lighten up, its a global economy. If someone is so desperate for a job I would suggest they move to China or Mexico where they got it so good. If you want to point the blame at anybody, its us, the workers who are driving jobs away. Ever notice how the message boards thrive during business hours and not on the weekends? I guess its just easier to blame the boss instead of ourselves.

[This message has been edited by Jed M (edited January 15, 2004).]

For me, the issue is quality, not the source of the product. Is anyone else old enough to remember when Made in Japan was a sign of shodiness? When we have true innovators a la Saul Marantz, Henry Kloss, etc. we reap the rewards. If you were a buggy manufacturer you lost out when the automobile prevailed. I'm in favor of change, not stagnation.
Two: I have family members that won't buy German cars for political reasons going back fifty years. It is impossible to buy a car that isn't tainted with some sort of collusion with politically unsavory types. What are we to do? Ignore Richard Wagner, Mercedes and Braun because they're German? Unfortunately, it's a dead end issue. BTW, on a related topic, the Ford Foundation, which supported various racist causes has corrected itself. As a cockeyed optimist, I believe that eventually goodness and rightness prevail. Let's not be obstructionist!

Jay

Good point Jed M but those who are business owners can set their own work hours.


[This message has been edited by Spiker (edited January 15, 2004).]

Could you tell us more specifically what these jobs are and where they are? My field is one that is being impacted heavily by this "globalization", only we call it "runaway production" - however the motive is the same, cheaper labor. Maybe I could snag one of these new high paying jobs that seem so plentiful. Maybe they will need music editors to edit the Muzak that will be piped through GWB's moon base station that will keep the inhabitants from going bonkers.

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited January 15, 2004).]

If you are referring to US unemployment rate, you may want to look here http://www.wallstreetview.com/unemployment.html

Here’s something on Canada’s unemployment rate last October http://quickstart.clari.net/qs_se/webnews/wed/cf/Qcanada-economy-jobs.RILz_DN7.html

A friend of mine just got back from a trip to Mexico and gave some boost to their tourism industry. If she didn’t have a job here at home and made enough money for a fun trip, this may not have been the case.

SH, if you ever need a job and willing to relocate, I’d recommend Chicago, Illinois. http://www.chicagotribune.com/classified/jobs/?track=ctjobstab I used to move around from city to city and state to state for work. It wasn’t fun but coming to Chicago made all that worth while. If you don’t mind a few cold days during the winter, you will like it here a lot. Want to build a house here? I’ll design you one at a discount rate. Consider it a “Gunslinger Discount”.

Um....sorry for the interruption....but I was mainly interested in the manufacturer of the driver (eg. Vifa, Scanspeak, Focal, Peerless), the thickness of the MDF, the cabinet finish and whether or not family pricing applies. Thanks and as Mike Myers would say "discuss".

[This message has been edited by worldwide (edited January 15, 2004).]

Geez! The nerve of some people - interrupting a great topic like that.

Oops, that was the topic. The nerve of some people, changing the original topic like that. (Guilty as charged)

When I spoke to Peter a couple of days ago I recall him saying that Outlaw would soon be posting a detailed account of the design / process in the near future. If so, I suspect that your questions will all be answered at that time.

Jeff Mackwood

ps. Can we try religion next?

ps. Soundhound. I'm with you 100% on this one. Unfortunately, for most issues, it's only when it gets really close to home and personal, that most people realize there's a real problem. And by then it's too late.

I was at a trade show last month in Vegas when a Chinese rep (just doing his job of course) approached my booth thinking that I was Pratt & Whitney Canada (probably because I had one of their engines sitting in my booth.) Without beating around the bush at all he simply said (and I paraphrase / interpret): "You send me the complete specs and blueprints for your engine and we will make it all for you. The whole thing. Much cheaper than what it's costing you now." When I asked him (pretending for an instant to be the Pratt's guy he thought I was) what I would then do with the thousands of Canadian employees that now build that product he replied "Fire them all. They're no longer needed. We do it cheaper. You don't need them." The unfortunate thing: I bet his pitch worked more often than not.

Drifting away from the original subject is not uncommon in the chat rooms. Its not like a televised debate where time is limited. I’m sure if someone wants to add relevant comments, they can.



“high paying job” is a subjective term. Lets say, for simplicity sake, if someone makes more than US median income (see website below), that could be considered a high paying job? But it varies from state to state.
http://www.census.gov/hhes/income/income02/statemhi.html
Or were you considering a six figure income?

Well, soundhound, they have those here in and around Chicago (so does New York City but the cost of living there may turn a lot of people off). You should give it a thought. Someone with experience and knowledge like yours (based on my observation in the saloon), I don’t see why you would have a problem here.

"Maybe they will need music editors to edit the Muzak ..."

You may not want to count that out. You never know…

I would like to have a six-figure salary ... all six of those figures being to the LEFT of the decimal point.

A high salary is only truly high when it is in the context of the cost of living in which the salary is earned. In the S.F. Bay area, with the outrageous housing costs, I don't consider a salary to be high unless it is over the $150,000 mark. Even then, someone earning $150,000 is not going to be able to afford much of a house unless they are willing put up with an hour or more commute time each direction to/from work. In which case, a large portion of that salary will be used for medical expenses for stress related problems.

Of course, if your partner also has a nice salary, then you may be able to afford something livable near work.

The bad thing living in a high-cost area like the S.F. Bay is the housing costs (and the associated problem of crowding and traffic).

The nice thing is that, with the somewhat higher salaries, the "toys", such as the Outlaw LFM-1 and other Outlaw gear, are more obtainable.

So what if I live in a cardboard box under an overpass, I have a fabulous surround sound system, drive a BMW (nor really)while talking on my cellphone (that has a camera, a fax machine, and a hdtv projector built in), while sipping on my $tarbux double venti cappuccino-latte , all the while flipping-off the other inconsiderate motorists who are in MY way!

Paul

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the 1derful1

Well, while this all did get off the topic, it still is a beneficial thread. It shows the demographics of the Outlaws. It looks to me like the people who buy these products are thoughtful and intelligent. Thoughtful, intelligent people tend to find good products. This is a group of people that would be fun to spend a Saturday afternoon having a beer with and talking about the world, and Outlaw Audio has a product line and philosophy that is worthy of such company. It's been nice getting aquainted with Outlaw Audio, and all you good people.

I share Jeff Mackwood's view of avoiding "Made in China" products, not just because of the quality.
SVS subwoofers are made in US (the amp is made in Canada) and the price is very reasonable.
tvd51