Please clarify how "bass boost" and "bass control" work

Someone please clarify how the RR2150 bass boost works when operating WITHOUT a subwoofer:

(1) Can the 55Hz/65Hz/80Hz front panel control bass boost be applied as 3 separate adjustments to emulate a 3 band equalizer, or are you just able to pick ONE frequency?

(2) With the above, can you select a range of dB values for the amount of dB boost or are the choices limited to exactly a 6 dB boost or else no boost at all?

(3) Separate from the 3-setting bass boost control, Is there a different independent control for the traditional "bass" knob at 50 Hz?

(4) If so, does this mean you can have two types of bass adjustments in effect at once?

I can offer a little insight on this, perhaps...

(1) The front panel controls would not emulate a 3 band EQ, as you can only choose one of the frequencies (or none of them).

(2) There is no independent dB boost control available. It is just a 6dB boost. Here's a relevant quote from page 18 of the manual:
Based on that, it also isn't like a traditional "single point" EQ at all - it is boosting the signal from that specific frequency all the way down, as a way to counteract natural speaker roll-off. So if you had a null at 55Hz, setting this control to 55Hz might not be an ideal solution since it would also boost the signal below that null..

(3) There are bass and treble controls that allow +/-6dB of control over each separately, along with a tone defeat button to disable those knobs (in case just having them "zero'd" isn't enough for your peace of mind).

(4) Yes, both of these adjustments are independent of each other, although Outlaw does (wisely) recommend caution when using the speaker EQ in conjunction with a full +6dB bass tone control. They are also both independent of the subwoofer bass management feature.

Thank you. Your explanation was exactly the information I was looking for.

So it sounds like I can have some measure of control, but not as intricate or subtle as a multiband equalizer.

With my old speakers, I wasn't happy until I got a 24 band equalizer. I may end up doing the same this time, but first I will hook it up and listen for a week before making a decision.

See my other thread where I posted this question -- Does anyone know if a digital-controls equalizer can give good sound quality? I'm thinking of the Technical Hifi EQ-S5200, 10 bands.

Now that I have the unit set up (RR2150 with Polk Audio Monitor 70s), I realize I do need a subwoofer with rock music. The Polks generate midrange two 6.5 inch speakers, and then bass is created from two other 6.5 inch speakers. So the sound is wonderful for human voice, piano, strings, classical, jazz, but not rock, which needs a deeper bass.

So, I've ordered a Velodyne VR-1200 subwoofer, self-powered with a 130 wpc amp, and which can run with internal crossovers or not.

With respect to hooking up with the RR2150, what is going to be better:

(1) Using the switch on the RR2150 for crossover frequency, with the subwoofer output going into the Velodyne subwoofer as a line input without using a crossover, or

(2) Running the "A" speakers output from the RR2150 into the Velodyne speaker input, which then goes through an internal crossover, and the Polk main speakers have a second output to connect to off of the subwoofer.

(3) Or is the correct or best way none of the above?

I'd definitely start with option (1), with the RR2150's bass management switch set to "60" to start with and the Velodyne's crossover either bypassed or (if there's no bypass) set as high as possible. EDIT: I also just realized that my first glance at the Monitor 70's specs was a bit misleading. The -3dB point is 40Hz (even though the listed frequency response range starts at 30Hz). Based on that, I'd suggest trying both the 60Hz and the 80Hz crossover points using the RR2150's bass management switch.

Well, I got the sub (Velodyne VR-1200, 130 wpc continuous, 195 watts peak, 12 inch speaker with rear port) a couple nights ago and hooked it up yesterday to the Outlaw RR2150 100 wpc receiver with my Polk Monitor 70s (rated 275 wpc, each speaker has one 1 inch tweeter, two 6.5 inch midrange, and two 6.5 inch bass).

It made a world of difference on any type of music with a central bass melody.

The odd thing is, I had to boost the below-55-Hz signal by 6 dB coming from my Outlaw receiver's subwoofer output to get the sub to respond adequately, plus turn the sub volume all the way up. I think there was some kind of input level mis-match. Thank god the Outlaw RR2150 has this rather atypical control, which boosts all frequencies below a selected threshold (55, 65, 80 Hz) by exactly 6 dB. I found out that this boost is applied simultaneously both to the speaker mains (A, B, A+B) and to the subwoofer output.

I also tried playing with the Receiver's subwoofer filter (dividing the mains versus sub outputs at selected crossovers of 60, 80, or 100 Hz or else full spectrum to both mains and sub output). Also tried playing with the subwoofer's internal crossover filter (ranging from 60 to 120 Hz) and also the sub amp's volume control.

I ended up with subwoofer's internal amp at full volume and the receiver bass boost at +6 dB for below 55Hz, and the subwoofer's internal crossover about 100 Hz and the receiver's crossover at 60 Hz.

Don't ask me why, I just tried all possible combinations and this is just what seemed to work best. The 80 Hz crossover point on the RR2150 sent too much signal to the sub, leaving the main speaks a bit too high and shallow sounding, and with the sub output sounding a bit muddy because I suspect it has much higher distortion in a 12 inch speaker at 80 Hz compared to the Polk Audio 6.5 inch speakers. Also, changing the crossover on the sub to a higher level caused a little bit of poor quality upper bass with a muddy sound, probably because of unwanted harmonics being reproduced poorly by the sub. And turning off the 55 Hz-and-below bass boost on the RR2150 made the sub barely audible. Same thing with turning down the sub internal volume below the range of 75% to 100% volume - I just couldn't hear it. Perhaps the inputs levels are not high enough, but I would think the RR2150 wouldn't have that problem, when dealing with an experienced subwoofer manufacturer such as Velodyne, even though this was one of their lower end models.

ONE QUESTION -- Has anyone ever experienced a brand new subwoofer out of the box to need a few minutes of listening time just to "break in" to start kicking out the volume? I swear when I first plugged it in, all of the different settings I tried hardly worked until it had been on quite a while.

Well, I talked to the Velodyne representative.

He said that the VRP and VX series have a problem with a lot of 2.1 systems because those systems deliver a lower level signal feeding the subwoofer compared to the surround sound systems. Therefore, he said I'm probably doing the best I can given that product. However, he told me that at a volume setting of 100%, the Velodyne amp may be compressing the signal because it thinks at the higher volume setting it must protect the speaker from clipping. OF COURSE, the only solution he recommends is that I'm supposed to exchange it for a more expensive Velodyne sub.

As usual, it boils down to more marketing to get the consumer to shell out more money. The Velodyne representative thinks I should be spending AS MUCH on my subwoofers as I spend on the main speakers. He actually said that.

However, I will never turn up the volume on my 100 wpc Outlaw Receiver farther than 9:00, so it is unlikely I will be sending that much power to the subwoofer's speaker. Hence, the problem was in the INPUT level being too low, which I ALMOST, not quite fixed by using the Outlaw Receiver's 6 dB boost for all signals below 55 Hz. Even though, I still had the subwoofer volume set to 100 percent.

The Velodyne rep also tried to talk me into a higher power subwoofer, given my room size of 3100 cubic feet (25 x 15), using highly efficient main speakers with a lot of midrange power (total of eight 6.5 inch speakers) at moderate listening volumes for those speakers. However, I'm not convinced I need a better setup because with the subwoofer corner-located in the room, I had no trouble hearing good bass at any listening location.

In my opinion, the proof is in the sound. I like the sound now that I have restricted the bass to below 60Hz, so only that portion is sent to the subwoofer, and I have increased both input signal level and internal gain volume for the subwoofer. So what if the volume is at 100 percent, because my ears don't hear compression distortion in the subwoofer's output, although the Velodyne rep said there would be some. I'm thinking the subwoofer's internal signal compression doesn't kick in until the subwoofer's total OUTPUT signal sent to it's speakers goes beyond a certain level, but that might depend on the circuit design. At least it seems that way based on my listening. And right now the sub volume is well balanced to the main speakers' volume, and I'm unlikely to EVER NEED to turn the system volume up higher than 9:00 because the Polk Monitor 70s are extremely efficient.

Are you really satisfied with it or are you just convincing yourself of that ? ... just a thought .

As a consumer ..... I'm bombarded with choices. It comes down to this ...... if I don't love it ---- leave it .

I don't have any stake in Outlaw or anything, but their LFM-1 Compact sure looks nice and it's likely a better quality unit than the Velodyne . They're only $339 right now .... they had free shipping too , but I'm not sure if it's still valid or not.


Either way ...... happy listening !!

I think it actually is typical for subs to cost one to two times the cost of one speaker in a matched system.

Look at packages from Atlantic Technologies, Klipsch, Monster Cable, etc. and the subs are all priced either around same price as one main speaker (a little less for the AT 6200e, about same for Klipsch 650, although you need an amp to drive them, and twice price for Monster Cable THX package).

And you certainly aren't going to save money buying Velodyne. They are the big name (not necessarily best though) in subs and price their products accordingly.

Dang I should never have started reading these forums, I am catching the "upgrade" bug, it's contagious and spread by talking about Polk speakers and Outlaw Audio equipment.

OK, so after the Velodyne guy busted my hump over the phone yesterday about it being bad to use the VRP1200 with volume at 100%, I started checking prices. Well, lo and behold J&R electronics has the Polk 505 subwoofer for $299 plus $39 shipping. And circuit city will give me a full refund on the Velodyne.

So what are the pros or cons to upgrading to the Polk 505?

Pro - 300 watts continous, 450 watts dynamic, @+/-3dB response 28 Hz to 125 Hz

Pro - get rid of the Velodyne, 130 watts continuous, 195 peak, @+/- 3dB response 29 Hz to 160 Hz

Pro - won't have to turn the volume knob on the sub up to 100% all the time.

Con - spouse will have a fit as this will be the third upgrade in 7 days - from no sub at all, to a 100 watt sub, then to a 130 watt sub, now to a 300 watt sub

Opinions on how to fast talk my way into this? Maybe Kay Jewelers?

Another option that would easily match the Polk is to get in on the Santa\'s Sonic Boom promotion and get an LFM-2 for $239 plus shipping or go up to the LFM-1 Compact for $339 plus shipping. The LFM-2 doesn't have as large an amp as the Polk, but amp ratings on subs can be tricky - the performance specs count for more, and the Polk 505 has a -3dB point of 28Hz compared to the LFM-2's -2dB point of 28Hz (meaning a hair more low frequency extension for the Outlaw amp).

Looking back on the other bass threads in this forum, I see I just missed the bargain this year with the clearance of the discontinued LFM-1. That would have been a steal at $429.

The LFM-1 compact sounds nice, but I would rather have 12 inch speaker, wouldn't we all?

I don't know that the Compact's 10" driver is going to be a compromise compared to the alternatives being considered. After all, even with 12" drivers both the Polk and the Velodyne start to roll off before the Compact (which is -2dB at 25Hz, compared to -3dB at 28hz for the Polk 505 and -3dB at 29Hz for the Velo VRP1200).

The only way to explain all this to the spouse is to be honest about it. Your intention to buy your audio gear is already known, so now you are fine tuning your selection. You never really know how audio gear is going to sound until you get it into your own home environment, so buying and returning things is inevitable .

You do not appear to be a person that buys/sells/trades audio gear frequently, so for now, you should have the space to do as you need to find the right gear , since it is a long term investment.


I really would not bother with a Polk and get an Outlaw sub, they are made to work perfectly with their products , and I suspect dollar for dollar they are better products. As they say ...... you can pay for it now ..... or pay for it later ! LOL

Having done a few hundred googles for reviews and reread both product lines (HSU and Outlaw), it looks like there are about 4 choices here:

$ 339 - LFM-1 compact: 10" speaker, 225watt continuous, 38 lbs, 17hx13x19, warranty: 3 yrs

$ 500 - HSU VTF-2-mk-3 12": 250watt, 60 lbs, 22hx15x23, warranty: 7 yrs speaker, 2yr electronics

$ 549 - (SALE) LFM-1 EX: 12", 12", 350watt, 80 lbs, 22hx17x24, warranty: 3 yrs

$ 629 - HSU VTF-3-mk-3: 12", 350watt, 80 lbs, 22hx17x24, warranty: 7 yrs speaker, 2yr electronics

Furthermore, right now music is important, not movie explosions (but maybe next year when I purchase HDTV). So my goal is bass that is even and not muddy and follows the bass instrument without dropoff or boomy deviations in SPL in various frequencies in the actual listening room.

However, I don't want to shell out EVEN MORE for a SMS-1 to tune the speaker to the room and I don't even own a functioning EQ anymore.

Given these caveats, if I buy a cadillac subwoofer and it kicks out major SPL, then if the darn thing isn't tuned just right for the room it will fail more miserably because it will be more obvious at high volume.

My living room is 25' x 15.5' x 8', with a 7' wide opening to dining room of size 15' x 13'. The room is carpeted with drapes on 2 picture windows, and the main speakers are a pair of highly efficient Polk Audio monitor 70s corner mounted at the end of the room, one atop the sub, and the sub about 6 to 8 inches from wall and pointed to the center of room.

The sub I have is a 130 watt POS, but it still gives some good thump, just very uneven frequency response and very muddy.

Placement of all speakers gives no dead spots -- I can hear bass in the center of the room, along the sides and end where the couches are, and even in the center of the adjacent dining room, since the corner where the sub is points diagonally towards the open air entrance to dining room near opposite corner.

And the Polk Monitor 70s are now lifted off the ground sitting atop the sub in one corner and on top of a 14 inch toybox in the other corner. The imaging is perfect with these Polks, each one has great midrange from two 6.5 inch midrange, two 6.5 inch bass, and one tweeter.

But I'm not sure the Polks really need the highest power (350watt) sub or something smaller.

Last night I took one last stab at trying to get the most out of the Velodyne VRP1200 sub. Firstoff, circuit city will give me a full refund.

This time I did NOT run the Outlaw RR2150 subout into the Velodyne LFE, because with that previous setup the Velodyne had to be set to 100 percent volume to even hear it, and even then I had to put the Outlaw 55Hz bass boost on, and used a 60Hz Outlaw crossover.

Instead, I troubleshooted using the RR2150, without any internal crossover, and using speaker outputs "A" for the Polks and "B" for the sub, so I could test A or B or (A+B). I only needed to have the sub's volume set to 50 percent, not 100 percent like before. Powering the Velodyne by itself I played with the crossover - it was muddy sounding above 80 or 90 Hz, but diminished volume if set to below 75 Hz. Also, the bass did not have good definition of individual notes. The Polks sounded fine by themselves, well into mid-bass, but the bass guitar was not pronounced enough.

Overall it is listenable, but the bass is very uneven at present and it probably overemphasizes mid-bass since both speakers are playing bass frequencies. I didn't want to run 100 percent of my quality Outlaw signal into the sub, then run the mains from the sub's speaker output, since it is probably a poor quality crossover on the cheap sub, and I didn't want the sound quality in the mains to suffer. Or am I wrong there- would it not make much difference in sound quality for the main speakers to have them routed through the sub's crossover first?

I have to wonder .... now that you're looking at all these pricey subs , if you'd be better off with a pair of full ranged floor standers.

I'm only speaking for myself here, but there is nothing like two non-powered floor standing speakers with a full frequency range. It just seems natural to me that way. I have not shopped for such speakers these days, but I suspect you need to spend well over a grand to get such speakers. A sub and two speakers has never sounded right to me, maybe dual subs would sound more "normal". It sounds like you're having trouble with your systems not sounding "right" too. With one bass speaker ...... hmmm.

My old Bose 601 II's may not be for everyone, but they rock .... literally..... they can shake the windows and walls. This is the best investment I ever made in audio , $550 in 1982 . The bass easily goes into the mid 20's . With the availability of subs these days, it seems speakers like these have fallen from fashion. Speakers with 8, 10 or 12" woofers are becoming more rare . It's too bad though ....... kids grow up today with subs and may never get to even hear the beauty of simply two kick butt speakers. I've tried to get rid of the 601's numerous times , thinking I'd find a more satisfying "modern" speaker ....... but I always returned everything I've tried

Bottom line though ..... you don't buy speakers very often . You may as well take your time , enjoy the process and get what you really really want !

In substance I heard the same opinion on the Polk Audio forum, after I purchased the Outlaw RR2150 and the Polk Monitor 70s. A guy said, go back to your old vintage system (Polk Model 10s and 180wpc power amp, EQ, and receiver), and return the stuff I bought.

But for the reasons expressed earlier (not wanting to forever keep having to fix separate components as they repeatedly go bad after 30 years), I am not going to fix my old components again.

At this time, I am in a pinch more with money, I have one kid in college, another starts next fall, and a stepdaughter in college. I was bad and took about 10 percent of a monetary gift to help with the kids college and had some fun replacing the stereo. But at least 90 percent of the money paid off most of my credit card, so I should be in a decent position to take out college loans for my son next fall. Not to mention son will need a new laptop for college, and I owe son 400 babysitting money for fall and another 400 advance for spring, plus 600 dollars for his Xmas and Bday that I said I would combine together at Christmas time and help him buy his first car.

Initially, it was my significant other who said it would be nice to listen to Christmas CDs on something nicer than PC speakers.

However, she quickly suggested expanding HER Christmas list when I revealed my final selection -- $540 on floorstanding loudspeakers and $650 on a receiver, which is fair.

But later she resisted when I mentioned I wanted to add a subwoofer -- that's when I ordered a massage table.

She bit her tongue when she saw the size of the subwoofer and wondered if I had upgraded, and I told her I had (Velodyne sub price $250 instead of $170).

At this point, she has seen me fussing with it a couple nights to get better sound. But personally, she can't hear any problem with the sound -- she's happy with it.

I mentioned that maybe I'd have to return the Velodyne, and without even talking price she objected to upgrading again.

So I might just be stuck with the Velodyne. It's not perfect but I'm not in a place right now where I can afford perfection.

But anyway, if B-stock suddenly showed up for an LFM-1, I would jump like a frog. I have a few days still to return the Velodyne if I decide.

Your suggestion for full powered speakers is good, but I don't want to go overkill on $$$.

Polk has higher models, but they don't seem to offer a lot of bang for the buck. None have more than two 6.5 inch midrange. The woofers in even the $1100 speakers are only 7 or 8 inch. And they still are those narrow-style cabinets, so they won't give those nice deep bass resonances like the older larger cabinets used to.

I personally think that because the entire speaker industry has decided that floorstanding speakers are supposed to be skinny to fit alongside home theatre, that you can no longer get a good deal with a large width cabinet and a decent woofer in a pair of loudspeakers unless you go way over $1000 a pair.

What I've decided is to return the Velodyne now so I don't lose the ability to get 100 percent of my money back, since in the long run it isn't worth $250 and is a bit uncomfortable on my ears to hear the distortion, thumpy, and muddy music listening quality.

Then I'll sit back and monitor websites until I see some B-stock become available. Patience will pay off.

I get where you're coming from better now . I know how it goes when you have to explain your budget, then that budget gets stretched

You are right on about the speaker industry. They now call us "old school " for liking a "regular" full faced speaker. These skinny and deep speakers ..... I'll never get used to them . There are still a some of the full face makers left , but no many. One site I saw recently was a small builder called Human Speakers http://www.humanspeakers.com/human/index.html, he makes speakers and sells kits for them too. Buy or make you own cabinet . He used to work for Epicure/Genesis , so if that rings a bell you can call yourself "old school" . LOL His stuff costs more than your budget, but I'm just sharing it to show there are some such craftsmen left. He sells some refurbished old EPI models too http://www.humanspeakers.com/specials.htm. Check out the EPI 201,the specs are the original, not updated . Now they have his new drivers in them which are much better. I bet it rocks with two 8" woofers.

Another cool idea (to me, at least), is a speaker call the Silent Speaker http://www.directacoustics.com/home.htm
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue26/direct_acoustics.htm
If I was ever to consider another speaker, I'd give these a try because I like non-traditional designs like these. Read the review , it sounds great ...... but who knows until you get them home. Don't let the odd specs fool you though. I think the guy runs a one man operation . This may not be for you either, but it is something I've come across that someone may be interested in . There's more to speakers than just a box and a set drivers ! Soundstage .... imaging .... etc . There is nothing like a speaker with no specific sweet spot .... it's everywhere. It reminds me of how much I like the recordings from the 50's 60's and 70's , when they actually had different instruments in separate channels.... it was like being in the studio . Another lost art .

Happy hunting for whatever you choose though. Yep, patience usually always pays off . Glad you got rid of the poor sub and choosing something else.

I can't believe no one mentions Athena for moderately priced subs. I've had one for a few years and love it. Check them out.

Hi rru2s;
I think you made a good choice in returning the Veoldyne. I purchased the same sub in my first pass at home theater, quickly outgrew it and have been stuck with trying to find something worthwhile to do with it ever since. It has no resale value.
Now you will be in a more informed position to choose equipment that you will be happy with when the time comes.