Phono section

I'm delighted with my Outlaw receiver. Specifically, I love the phono section. I'm gradually relistening to the 15' of lps I own but have ignored for years and, ya know, they sound easier on the ear than my cds, sacds, and dvd-as. There must me something to that good ol' fashioned analogue software! Too bad they don't last 80 minutes and require cleaning on the VPI and won't play in my car and are a pain to get into my iPod and...

Jay

Only 15 feet?

There's actually a really great explanation for this phenomenon, and here's a few links to some excellent articles that I just found very compelling:

The volume wars

And this one which I haven\'t read yet

The second article seemed too long for me to read as I was so tired last night, but will read it soon I guess. Basically what they speak of is how people who do mastering or producing are so ill over these idiot/ignorant "artists" who tell them to always make sure that the album is LOUD !

Making the master "hot", is responsible for all sorts of audible atrocities such as say, clipping, really severe compression etc.. The thing about vinyl is that you absolutely can not compress the frequencies like you can with a digital press.

This results in much better dynamics, a full frequency range being able to come through and be reproduced by your wonderful gear. But I'm not doing the explanation any justice, just read the articles.

Lastly, a short youtube video of an example:

Soundwars clip

Doug

Doug, thanks for the "loudness" articles. Really interesting stuff.

First, the phono section of the rr2150 is a real revelation. LPs sound just gorgeous. When you check the specs for the phono section on most receivers and amps, the numbers, especially S/N, are generally lower than those for the other inputs. Not so with the rr2150. Hopefully, this is not just an omission ;-)

I have a 29 year old Technics SLD2 with a Grado Green cartridge on it; hardly audiophilia, but it sounds great. There is also the whole ritual of vinyl that just makes listening more participatory.

Regarding the "loudness" links, they are both interesting and a bit demoralizing. Just another example of the corporate mentality of reaching for the lowest common denominator.

I have been archiving my vinyl to CD and WMA/FLAC, recording first with a CD Recorder, then moving it to the computer for cleaning and gain normalizing before burning to CD and converting. Friends have commented on the sound quality of my home-brewed CDs, and now I know why.

Lastly, this youtube video: How & Why They Still Manufacture Vinyl LPs!

Great video on how LP's are made! Thanks...

Sometime in the next week or two I am going to bring my Immedia RPM table and arm with a Lyra Helikon out front and hook it up to my 2150. This should be interesting.... I have a great system in the back room but since the second offspring arrived, I have had less and less time to go sit in the back and listen to it.

Currently listening mainly to SACDs in the front room, and they sound great. The current Rega P3 'table with Denon 103d cartridge sounds pretty good but those SACDs are darn convenient. All of it is sounding really good through the 2150 and I have had *zero* quality issues. Chalk me up as a happy customer.

As an extreme vinyl head, I must say for the money the RR 2150 does a great job. I get a very nice sound stage, open and with depth. I have heard some phono preamps that cost more then the receiver not live up to the RR 2150's capabilities. The thing can rock.

Getting sucked further and further into the audio vortex. Got an entry-level turntable yesterday (a Pro-Ject Debut III), and my first impressions of the RR 2150's phono stage are pretty cool considering that I haven't owned a turntable in 20 years.

We don't have too many LPs in the apartment (pssst: yet), but I cued up a West-African compilation, Ghana Soundz: Afro-Beat, Funk and Fusion in '70s Ghana, something I'm quite familiar with on CD but had never heard on vinyl. When I played the disc and LP side by side, I was surprised to find that the vinyl really opened up the drum sound. The 3rd Generation Band's "Because of Money" always sounds kinetic, but now it kinda felt like the group was coming off the rails; it seemed a reminder of how radical this music was back in 1973. I think I'm gonna have a lot of fun slowly easing back into LPs—especially well-recorded jazz stuff.

Welcome back to the world of analog, tru blu. Now does anybody know how the 990's phono section compares to the 2150's?

Hard to believe that no one has compared the two phono sections. Nothing much to report on this end except that the RR 2150 coupled with my new turntable is sweet, indeed.

Maybe what I'm about to ask is a subject for another section of the forum, but since I've purchased several LPs in the last couple of days—both used and new—I was wondering if anyone could recommend a good, but relatively inexpensive vinyl-cleaning solution or system. Among other things, I found a handsome-looking (and sounding) Edith Piaf double LP called The Definitive Piaf. On first glance you'd think it was one of those old Time/Life packages with a booklet and everything, except it was put out by Capitol/EMI. Can't seem to find out exactly how old it is, but on the back it has the following: Anyway, they certainly weren't lying…

I usually check Needledoctor.com for things vinyl. Here is the link to cleaning stuff.
http://www.needledoctor.com/Online-Store/Record-Cleaner

Cheers,
Cruise

Thanx, Cruise. I'm familiar with Needle Doctor--just acquired a Pro-Ject Speed Box Mk II for my turntable from there. Always interested in knowing what others are using, though. Is it me, or did a tumbleweed just blow through the RR 2150 forum?

Well, the forum would probably pick up if the 2150 had a no audio bug ;-)

Perhaps everyone is too busy enjoying the music.

Cheers

Yup. I said precisely the same thing a little while back in another Saloon thread…nothing beats the silence of satisfied customers…

I've a question for you Vinyl people out there. A technical question in fact.

So I decided to take the Rega P2 (with its beautiful glass platter) out of the closet, out of its box, and put it next to my other audio stuff. This "stuff" though, is something I'm hoping to replace sooner than later, with the 2150, and the NAD C521BEE CD player which is STILL in its box, in the closet. (Using DVD player for now)

Quandary: I want to test the TT before I get the Outlaw, because well... it's just sitting there looking all pretty, and I would like to get the hang of using it before I get the 2150 so that I can be prepared for a serious evaluation !

Problem: I did just recently attach the stylus (Rega Ely's) but the last time I touched a TT, it was a fully automatic, and I didn't have to make any adjustments, let alone put the stylus on or anything...

Question: Where can I get good info on adjusting tracking force (how to do it) and other little things like that ? The P2 came with a piece of paper which is supposed to be used to align things, but I don't know where it went (probably amongst many papers in a box), and wonder if there might be some alternative way to get this rolling ?

I'd like to keep this relatively simple/hassle free if possible, but would also like to get the most out of the TT, so I'll do what I must at the end of the day.

Tips, tricks, suggestions, opinions ?

Edit: I may actually have found a solution which answers my own questions:

Basic TT setup kit

Does anyone here have any experience with the compilation of tools in this kit ? And if so, what would you say about each one ? I can probably save money on a couple things like the leveler, since they're available @ any local hardware shop, and the cleaning products I figure that I could get later if the ones in the kit aren't worth getting in the first place. Thoughts on that ? Thanks ...

Maybe I can be useful here - my TT experience goes back to before 1962 when I bought the AR XA which I still use. (Different arm, though.)

1. I notice the basic TT setup kit in the link is not available at the moment, so let's see what can be done without it.
2. First, adjusting tracking force. The specs of your Rega Elys (sp?) cartridge will tell the tracking force, but if they don't, 1.75 grams is a safe place to start for a moving magnet cartridge which I assume the Elys is. How to set that "close enough for government work" is easy. First, mount the cartridge in the arm and attach the four leads, probably by matching colors with the pins. (Bet you've done that already.) Disable the anti-skating. Look at the instructions for the Rega to see how. If you haven't got them, see if you can download them from their web site (I have no idea if this is possible) or go to a Rega dealer and either ask someone there, or take a look at the manual. Then look at the counterweight at the back of the arm. I think it will have a gram scale around it. Turn the counterweight until 0 (zero) is at the 12:00 position. Lift the arm off the rest and position it just outside the edge of the platter and release it, and see if the cartridge end rises or falls. If it simply floats with the arm tube perfectly parallel with the surface of the platter, pour out a libation to the turntable gods. But if it doesn't - which is much more likely - gently slide the counterweight forward or back until you've achieved perfect balance and the arm floats as already described. (You will probably find yourself moving the weight backward or forward in tenths of a millimeter while muttering something along the lines of "this better be worth it" plus bits of assorted Anglo-Saxon.) Balance finally achieved, turn the counterweight, without sliding it any more, until the mark indicating 1.75 grams (probably halfway between 1.5 and 2) is pointing straight up. The downward force on the stylus should now be 1.75 grams, or near as no matter to it.
3. That TT setup kit that isn't shipping right now has a level. You don't need it. Any small carpenter's level will be more accurate. Just lay it on the Rega platter - I mean the one you actually put the record on - in both forward-and-back and side-to-side directions, as near the center as you can. (You can't put it right across the center because of the record spindle.) Do whatever you have to so the bubble is exactly in the center in both directions.
4. Aligning the cartridge is more complicated than I can describe here, but you have two options: (a) Spend about $40 on the Phono Cartridge Alignment Tool from www.turntablebasics.com (best, and cheaper than the kit that isn't shipping). (b) Contact me (psyprof1@cox.net) and I can send you a simple paper gauge that isn't as accurate and doesn't have as much extra useful info, for nothing. I don't need it any more since I got the abovementioned tool.
5. Three more possible alignments. Azimuth (when you look at the cartridge closely from the front as it sits on a stationary record, is it absolutely level rather than tilting to one side or the other?) - with the construction of the pivot of the Rega arm this should not be a problem. Vertical tracking angle (VTA, or when you look at the arm from the side as the cartridge sits on a stationary record, is the arm absolutely parallel to the record surface?) - I think this can be adjusted with the Rega arm, but not at all easily, and if the cartridge is a Rega it should be designed with this arm in mind so forget it. Antiskating force - the best way to adjust this is to find a test record with a grooveless section (ask around at a dealer) and put the already adjusted arm/cartridge combination on this smooth area while the record is turning. It will almost certainly swing toward the center of the record - that's the skating force. Adjust the skating force (look at the instructions) until the arm stays in the same place on the record, swinging neither inward nor outward.

Are we having fun yet? But after doing this, you'll be ready to play records. Oh yeah - get a record cleaning brush - I use a Hunt EDA but there are plenty of others - and a small stylus cleaning brush; again there are plenty of acceptable ones. NOW you're in a position to enjoy vinyl all over again and decide if all this fuss was worth it. My guess is you'll say yes.

Enjoy -

Paul Nay

(Sigh.) Good luck, Doug. As detailed and informative as psyprof1's instructions are, not wanting to deal with same is what helped me decide on the Pro-Ject Debut III turntable, which is equipped with an Ortofon OM-5E moving-magnet cartridge. Near the bottom of the line and yeah, I've already been thinking about upgrading, but boy, does it seem daunting.

Right now, the limited number of LPs I have sound pretty amazing, anyway: Last night, I compared a borrowed copy of the reggae poet Linton Kwesi Johnson's song "Wat About Di Workin' Class?" with its CD counterpart and couldn't believe my ears. Much more drum detail in analog; the stuttered rimshots on the LP sound like dull, mechanized thuds when rendered digitally. Overall, that and the rest of the tracks on the album, Making History, sound much less slick. The subtle, personal way the drummer syncopates the rhythms is audible, as are the bent notes on the track's B.B. King-inspired guitar solo. It's kind of fascinating to discover this stuff firsthand.

Sure sorry you were scared off, tru blu. My instructions about setting stylus force are easier to do than to read about, believe me. I was trying to make all of it useful to anybody with a Rega TT, or some other with the same general construction. That definitely includes yours. Maybe I was too wordy - and the part about libations to the turntable gods can safely be omitted, I think. (It was late at night.)

From what I've read you could upgrade, if you ever wanted to, from the Ortofon OM-5E to the 10E or 30E without changing anything else, as long as you placed the mounting screws exactly the same way. Whether there'd be enough improvement in quality to justify the cost is something I don't know. Does anybody else?

Everybody, enjoy your vinyl - inconveniences and all. (Why, oh why, doesn't somebody make a remote-controlled arm lift, to be used when the phone rings??)

my SL-5 isn't a Rega, Music Hall or other...
esthetically and sonically...
but fed fresh vinyl...through a decent cartridge...
and ...Damn ! Life is sweet!
it's the most idiot\drunk proof TT i've seen...
and it's way younger than most the albums going on there anyway....

No worries, psyprof1. I was exaggerating a bit. I'm pretty sure I'm going to bump up to one of Ortofon's Super OM series cartridges, just not right now. I currently have no real complaints with the sound. If you have any insight into what those turntable gods are into, though, I'm all ears.

Interestingly enough, I thought I'd feel inconvenienced by the short length of album sides, but so far that hasn't really bothered me. It's probably been said before, but listening this way compels me to concentrate on the music more; it's not just on in the background…much closer to the way I used to listen three decades ago, when I first got into music.

I want to reply, and thank the professor for all of his commentary. There are definitely some avenues which were mentioned that I'd like to explore.

I've got two more finals this week (until Thursday), so I shouldn't really be doing anything but studying and working on a project. Until then:

Enjoy the music !

Doug

Thanks for the acknowledgment, Doug. The Cartridge Alignment Tool I mentioned costs only $20, not $40 as I wrote before, and Turntable Basics also has bubble levels (price unknown but probably cheap). But first hit them books and good luck on the exams.

Paul Nay (retired psychology professor)

Can't sleep. I've been dreaming about lousy test scores and questions pertaining to things I've never seen before in my entire life. Dreams are quite interesting in that way...perhaps I just envisioned an equation which is the ultimate solution for world peace ? Can't remember it now, so oh well !

Paul, I'll certainly consider the gear from turntable basics, but I'd prefer to order the items over the phone if possible. It's my preferred method of internet shopping these days (ironic eh ?) since I have been burned by a PayPal scam. It was not I whom fell for anything in particular, but rather that my account which hadn't been active for about a year, was 'hacked' and almost ready to transfer every bit of money from one of my banks' checking accounts, to some thieves' account. (I feel it was a PP employee)

Luckily, I caught it before the transaction was finalized ! Needless to say, I try and be as cautious as possible these days, an unfortunate necessity which helps me keep my peace of mind.

Anyhow, looking at the tracking force tool that they sell, it would seem that there is no 1.75 g mark, which means I'd have to somewhat guess, and hope I'm pretty accurate. In that respect, I'd rather buy the other tool from the site I linked, which also makes me think that it would just be better if I bought everything there, so that I'm not paying shipping from two different places.

I guess I'll have to do the math and figure it all out. At this point, I'm not so concerned with VTA, since I'm not even truly convinced of the legitimacy of this particular infatuation people seem to have with this part of TT setup. What does sound like something that can make a significant difference however, is the antiskating force factor you mentioned.

I mean, it sounds pretty logical to me that if the tonearm has a tendency to want to quickly move its self from the record groove to the inner part of the record, that it would have some sort of effect on the sonic characteristics or perhaps the general physical wear on the product its self ? I'm also assuming though, that Rega ships their TT's pre-adjusted, but I'll call and find out.

Also, I'd like to present this article link to you guys which was written by Geoff Husband (TNT France) called: Exposing the VTA Myth ? Pretty lengthy, but very interesting read. Sort of adds some justification to my suspicions about VTA.

Exposing the VTA Myth ?

Back to studying, for now....

Doug

Well since you have a turntable/arm that does not allow for VTA adjustment its good you are not too concerned! Otherwise you would have to upgrade yer hardware, and frankly most people love the music that comes out of their Rega setup (myself included, although I just sold my P3 because I no longer needed a second 'table).

Two things about VTF: first, recommended VTF is usually a starting point, adjust by ear after that; second, many of my turntable-lovin' friends (and myself) invested in one of those portable digital scales to use for setting VTF. I forget the model I bought and its in storage right now, but you should be able to get a good one with two decimal place accuracy for about $60. Third (I know I know I said two...) after you set your VTF do one more round of cartridge alignment because a change in VTF results in a change of alignment (because the stylus deflects more or less according to the VTF, natch).

You might cast about for a local vinylphile who can come over and give you some tips or help out. You could also subscribe to the phonogram equipment email list where some serious expertise resides - send email to "majordomo@phonogram.net" and in the body of the email put

subscribe phonogram
subscribe equipment
end

Say "Hi" and "Roger sent me" when you get there.

Roger