Disappointed

I've had the 770/950 combination since September, 2003, and up until 3 weeks ago everything worked fine. Then, for whatever reason, the front channels on the 770 quit producing an output.

Over the past few weeks I've had a few conversations with Outlaw's telephone service representative Steve, and one today with Scott, to see if the problem could be fixed. It can't so I have to send the 770 to them for repair.

My disappointment isn't with Steve and Scott - they were sincere and tried to help. But sending this monster in will $54.00. I asked if they determine the faulty amp was not caused by anything I did, would I be reimbursed for the shipping fee - the answer was no.

Call me old-fashioned but a product that costs this much should work for the duration of it's warranty, and if it doesn't, the customer should have it repaired or replaced for free. Had I bought an amp at a local retailer I could return it without a fee.

Sorry - just a little disallusioned. Now I'm out $54.00 bucks, and, more importantly, without an amp for 3-4 weeks.

I'll look locally when I'm ready to upgrade - I may stick with mail-order but now I know there is a definite downside. So.....buyer's beware.

If you had bought an amplifier that is comparable to the Outlaw 770 from a local retailer you probably would have paid a much higher price. You might have paid fifty percent to one hundred percent more than what you paid for the Outlaw product, not to mention the sales tax. There is an advantage to buying online, but if you are willing to accept the advantages you must accept the drawbacks too. It is not fair to complain about The Outlaws because you sure didn't complain about what you saved buying from them. I can understand that you may be unhappy, but I am surprised that you didn't understand your responsibilities before you made your purchase. If The Outlaws cried foul I would not say they were being unreasonable.

I've been pretty aware of the ups and downs of customer service lately (partly because Mrs. gonk is about to change jobs and leave the customer service call center environment after five years, but particularly since I ran rather heavily afoul of Best Buy's online store while trying to buy a new TV). I do understand JFro's frustration. It always sucks when something breaks. And while a product like the 770 should last forever, there are inevitably a percentage that will experience failures. Buying locally does avoid shipping fees and can offer convenience in the event of needed service, but as Oil Can pointed out, it does come at a cost.

JFro, I wish you luck in getting your 770 back on track as soon as possible.

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gonk -- 950 Review | LFM-1 Review | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | Saloon Links

A part of having a ‘brick-and-mortar’ store near you is that every customer pays a bit of the ‘rent’ in every purchase. Every customer also pays the cost of shipping items to and from that storefront in the cost of the items sold. This is a cost regardless of whether repair is needed or not.

I suppose that the only way around an individual having to pay shipping charges is to spread the potential cost around. This is a common principle of insurance – a certain small cost is shared and paid by many in lieu of a higher cost that may need to be paid by a few. Would you join a ‘shipping cost sharing’ club? Everyone has the option of joining for $2 - $5 per item they buy and if they do need to ship something back for repair under warranty, the cost of shipping comes out of the club’s fund. But who is going to take on the setting up and managing of such a fund?

Of course Outlaw could choose to take on the cost, but then they would have to charge more for each item sold to cover the cost. The money has to come from somewhere, right? It seems Outlaw chooses to keep prices lower. Needing repair and spending the $54 is a letdown, but which of us would rather pay hundreds more up front somewhere else to avoid this maybe-it-will, maybe-it-won’t occurrence from happening? We who buy Outlaw equipment are saving a bundle over comparable gear from other sources, even with shipping charges for warranty repair.

I've gotta chime in as well.

The cost of shipping, and the cost of warranty repairs, needs to get covered somehow - regardless as to whether you buy in store - or direct / online. An in-store's shipping charges are built into their selling price - as are the manufacturers expected average repair costs. Outlaw no doubt builds an allowance for warranty costs (including return shipping) into its selling price as well. Holding the owner of a defective unit responsible for shipping a unit in for repair may not be all that pleasant for those who must do so, but it does contribute to keeping the cost down for the vast majority of owners who don't need warranty work.

Outlaw's policies and practices are very clearly stated - both the obligations on the buyer and on Outlaw - and form part of the contract between the two.

I had some warranty work done a few months back and when additional charges were incurred in the shipping process to get the repaired unit back to me to my address in Canada, Steve and Scott agreed, without reservation, to cover those costs. Not because they are nice guys (which they are), but because they were clearly bound to do so under the contract between us.

So long as they continue to live up to their obligations, you can't fault them for asking others to do the same.

Jeff Mackwood

Curious, because the amps are very modular, & only a couple of channels went out, does Outlaw allow the customer to return only the amp PC boards for the failed channels? Of course, you'd also need to verify the xformer was ok, but a simple voltmeter could verify that. It could even be as simple as the B+ fuses on the specific amp modules. I'd probably check that before I would have sent anything back. Of course, if your not a DIY type, you'd have to return the whole heavy amp.

ok, so i just read through the site a little. i cant find anything about warranties. i am sure i am overlooking it... anyway, my thought on a warranty is this. if you buy a product from a company that guarantess said product will work for x number of years, and it breaks before x number of years have passed, it is THEIR responsibility to fix it for FREE! be it taking it somewhere to get it fixed or having to mail it off, you should not have to incur any added cost because they produced a product that failed. i realize that products break and electronics fail, but when they do, it is on the company who made the inferior product to make it like new again. its not the buyers fault that the product broke, it is the company's. its really not much of a warranty if you have to pay for anything to be fixed. granted more and more car manufacturers are including deductibles with their 100k warranties, but i would have to combat that with the thought that that is crap too. A WARRANTY IS WORTH NOTHING IF YOU STILL HAVE TO PAY TO GET IT FIXED. why not go the step further and reduce the cost of the product by the amount that the company predicts it will spend fixing problems with its units, because hey not everyone is going to have a problem. but it could be you that does, and when you have to pay to get something fixed it would piss you off. just think if a product could cost $200 less but came with no warranty, that would save a lot of people a lot of money including the company who would get paid to fix their mistake, but it would cost numerous ones A LOT through no fault of their own. it should be all or nothing, either pay the entire cost of getting it fixed or don't waste my time implying a warranty is present at all and save me the money up front. now having said that, not very many people would buy their products if they didn't come with a warranty, so why not do the courteous thing and fully cover any defect/malfunction their consumer has. it is bad enough that you have to lose use of a product to get it fixed, but to have to pay too really bites. they should pay you for the inconvenience of having to be without their faulty product! talk about customer service being so great...

[This message has been edited by curegeorg (edited April 16, 2004).]

Take a look at the manuals posted here for every product Outlaw has ever made. The full warranty is included at the back of each manual. Here's an excerpt from the 770 warranty:



This is only a portion of the warranty, so I would suggest grabbing the whole PDF to see the rest of it.

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gonk -- 950 Review | LFM-1 Review | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | Saloon Links

I am new here & have been considering Outlaw products as I am building a dedicated HT/Music room.
I, too am disappointed with this. I if spent any amount of money on a high quality product on the internet, I have come to expect excellent service.

There are too many other companies that are looking to make me a customer for life & decisions like this will be weighed heavily.

The reason why this business model(internet or mail order) works so well is because of word of mouth & customer service.

So why would a company not want to take care of this? Is $54 going to break the company? Is it because the company would have to charge more to everyone else?

While I understand others on here who commented about the differences with B&M stores & here, but they are not that different. If this happened to you & you had to pay to get this shipped it is only $54, right? What if it happens again in 6 months? After the warranty is up? Then what? will the company that charged you $54 take care of you? Piece of mind can be priceless!!

Just my opinion......

Joe

[This message has been edited by joesmud (edited May 11, 2004).]

^ After the warranty is up, what will the brick and mortar store do? Fix it for free? You think only one amp is going to have to be repaired? That has never happened.

Yeah, it always sucks when something breaks, but the shipping issue should have been known ahead of time. Like gonk showed, it's in the manual which is downloadable. This is one of the pitfalls of buying online. I think it's very fair to split shipping costs with the company.

How much of it is related to online buying though? How long would you have to wait for the store to send in the amp, have it fixed and return it? Don't say they can just give you a new one in the meantime as that will vary by store and will NOT happen every time.

As far as them determining if the user is at fault, does anyone really think Outlaw will try to screw people and blame every problem on them? I sure don't. You didn't drop the amp or do something crazy like run it below 1 ohm at full power for hours on end did you? What is there to worry so much about in that regard? How would that be any different from the B&M store?

The only difference I really see is that he has to pay $54 more than he thought. That does suck, but it really isn't all that bad. You knew it was a possibility when you purchased online. If you are so strapped for cash that $54 is a fortune, then why are you buying an amp that costs like &1800?

PS, most every time I say 'you' it's really a collective 'you'.

Being in semiconductor sales, I pay attention when purchasing and I did read the manual before I bought the 770 from Outlaw. I knew the risk and accepted it for the purchase price and features I was securing/Outlaw was making available. Wonder why other manufacturers have higher costs that ship thru B&M stores, shipping and reserves for warranty. So you do benefit by buying from Outlaw online. Plus, how can you assume that the amp is bad, maybe you did do something wrong or there was bad power to the amp. I keep in open mind on these type of issues and how they are handled is how I form my long lasting opinions of a company. But since I am in sales, I treat others like I wish to be treated based upon the terms of the purchase or agreement.

Point blank, you have a choice, if you do not agree or want the risk, don't spend your money.

"Piece of mind can be priceless!!"

Didn't Dr. Hannibal Lecter say that?



Jeff Mackwood

Adding to my earlier comment, I will simply say:

1) If you can find equipment equivalent to Outlaw at the same price,

2) where the warranty is just as long,

3) and where you are not responsible for any part of getting a defective unit to a service facility and back …

… BUY IT!

However,

1) If the Outlaw equipment is a superior value by several hundred dollars or more,

2) if the Outlaw warranty is up to five times longer than some others,

3) and if you can take $50 to $150 of what you saved by buying Outlaw and keep it aside for a ‘repair emergency*’ …

… buy Outlaw!

I don’t know if I can say it more simply.


*think of it like a brick-and-mortar store charging you an extended warranty fee with one large exception – if you don’t need to use a part of this self-insurance method, unlike the B&M store, at the end of the warranty period you’ll get the entire unused portion of this ‘fee’ refunded!

Just my two bits...I am having an ADCOM amplifier fixed and it is taking several weeks. I bought it from a small audio store in my area to try and support him. He has since gone out of business. It was moderately expensive. I have to get it repaired at an independent repair place authorized by the manufacturer. I would have had to pay for shipping if it was not my area. At least the repair center is reputable. Would you want Best Buy to repair your amp? Paying shipping back to the manufacturer is commonplace, according to all the shops I have talked to. I still think you got a great deal from Outlaw, even including the shipping costs.

Quibbling over $54.00 is really silly, considering the costs associated with virtually everything these days. Shipping costs should be expected. Anyways, what would piss me off more is the month long wait without an amp. Outlaw should give out "loaners" to tide you over until your unit is fixed. How annoying is it to have a setup worth the price of the Jones' car that YOU CAN'T USE. Especially when it is hooked up to the TV, etc. (in my case it's a projector that's being used as a TV, so I'm way out of luck with the sound options).

Anyways, that's my 2 cents.

Aren't you glad you didn't spend $10k on that new Krell... ?

-sbc

Well Outlaw used to do something like that. The trouble with loaners is how do you ship it out? Shipping costs rear their ugly head again.

And no one had better be thinking that a shop wouldn't charge shipping either. Some will, some won't.

For all of those people complaining about the cost of shipping their Outlaw products back to Outlaw for repair, I have a suggestion. Put your device in your car, and drive it there. Just like you would with a local vendor. No shipping cost, no UPS or Fed Ex people to drop, or damage your equipment, and no questions as to when the Outlaws received it. Why didn't anyone think of this before?

[This message has been edited by Oil Can (edited May 13, 2004).]

I too am having problems with an Outlaw 770 not providing output. And I know its the outlaw as I took the circuits and ran them thru another device that worked perfectly. Its taken me three days just to get to the point of an RA and a "letter authorizing the return".

I'll get it shipped back, but I can guarantee that sometime later this year I'll also be putting it up on audiogon or ebay to get rid of it. Certainly I'll pay more for a replacement unit, but high quality service is worth something to me. I'll go into one of the local high-end dealers for someone like Bryston or Meridian and have them put a unit in. That way if anything goes wrong, they'll provide me with a loaner while they ship the broken one back. That means also that I don't have to muscle the amp out. The Outlaw just isn't that good for its price compared to the extra hassles. Someone else will do that for me. And I don't have to worry about RAs or things like that.

Yeah I bought one. But I was mistaken about its overall quality and longevity. Being cheap should not be the only criteria as I've found out the hard way.

Outlaw's amps have generally been considered well made and reliable. I posted a note with some ideas for your problem in your thread just a minute ago.

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gonk -- 950 Review | LFM-1 Review | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | Saloon Links

If you build enough of any electrical, or mechanical device you are bound to have a few units that will have problems. Even with implantable medical devices, or aerospace equipment where quality control tests, and inspects one hundred percent of the units there are still a small percentage of the units that have problems, or fail. Given the fact that an amplifier in a home audio system is not a critical device I would guess that most people would not be willing to pay the cost of that level of quality control. Even the higher end manufactures that you mention in your post have problems. You are correct. If you buy something from a local vendor they might be willing to lend you a replacement unit while yours is being serviced. Given the number of posts made by people that have had problems with Outlaw products it appears that their level of quality control, and the overall quality of their products is very good. In an earlier post in this thread I mentioned that complaining about having to shoulder the cost of shipping your unit back for testing or repair is unreasonable, I am surprised that someone would do it again. The bottom line is, if you like the idea of buying from on-line vendors, and the return, and service policies are clearly defined, how can you complain? Like I was told long ago. “If you want to dance, you have to pay the band.”

[This message has been edited by Oil Can (edited June 22, 2004).]

I have to say after reading all this, that it is clear, to me anyway, that there are lots of possible ways to purchase an amp (as well as everything else...).
You have to figure out which way works best for you and live with the decision, don't you? I'm a bit surprised that for some people here, that after making their decison to buy Outlaw, they now look to find all sorts of fault with the way Outlaw chooses to do business and also the equipment. And all this it seems in order to feel better about being annoyed.

All the details of purchase and ownership are spelled out very clearly. I wonder if anyone has gone to task with Outlaw over any of these details BEFORE they bought? I mean, I guess you can disagree about the way a company does business but then why do business with them after that? As far as I'm concerned Outlaw gets to make the rules that work for their business model. I get to decide if that works for me or not.

No one herein has ever to my knowledge said there was no better equipment out there. I marvel at stuff (especially interconnects)that costs more than my car all the time. If that's your thing and you want to buy it from a guy who'll install it and babysit it and loan you another if it needs repairs, then go for it. But why blame Outlaw for having a faulty business model and subsequently faulty equipment.

Every purchase comes with the stuff I buy and the conditions I buy it under. Come on...we all know that's the deal. Don't we?
I just sent my computer back for repairs under warranty at my expense. That's the deal with many many vendors nowadays.

Bottom line for me: it's audio boys and girls....it's audio. Find something that gives you pleasure not creates more difficulty.

Before you buy a new car what's one of the first things you do...go online to check the repair record compared to other products of interest. Well you can't do that with electronic equipment, but a clear cut warrenty is worth more than fudged figures? Outlaw is providing labor, and parts for free, for 5 years. I'd be tickled to know I can rely on the company to back up there product.

Amp insurance, or a maintanence aggreement, they both cost, and suppose you don't even need them, I'm sure they cost more than the shipping.

A lot of companies ask if you want their extended warrenty, I say "if you built it right, I shouldn't need it", well all I can say is "S..t happens!!

The real Bandit is my lovable 70lb lab/rot...

The brick and mortar store isn’t going to reimburse you for your gas and mileage to return an amp to them for service. With a mail-order purchase isn’t shipping equivalent to this?

I bought a digital SLR, and only had it for a month before I had to ship it to the manufacturer (not the retailer) at my expense for them to keep it “hostage” for over a month to replace the entire flash unit as the part was out of stock. If I felt like going to Melville, NY I could have saved on the shipping. Unfortunately, the poor customer service was not avoidable, and is becoming more and more common.

The day I noticed that the bottom plate separated from the chassis of one of my M200s, Steve offered to repair or swap it out for me. Since I have the M200’s, I was able to take just my 6th and 7th channels off-line while the amp was out of my system, and because it’s only 23lbs, it only cost me $7.50 to ship it to Outlaw for service. Although it would be nice if you didn’t have to pay shipping for warranty repair, it’s not normal business practice. Most importantly, I think almost everyone who’s posted in this forum has found Outlaw’s customer service to be nothing short of exemplary, myself included.

Which Nikon did you buy:)? The D70 or D100? I'm currently eyeing one of those Canon 20D's. I have a Coolpix 990 I paid about $1200 for back in the day when they were newly released (lol). When the warranty was shot and my battery compartment closure wasn't closing anymore, I just mailed it into an authorized place in NYC (live in OC, NY). Nikon plain out sucks. When I got a new Mac (OSX Panther) and needed upgraded software, they were telling me I had a non-US model and I couldn't get it thru them. The way around this is to go thru Nikon Europe's site. All the software is available for free thru there. F*Nikon!

Uhhh...let's see if I got this right... You're going to buy much higher end gear just because you don't want to pay a few bucks in shipping costs? Well, maybe if

1. You want better gear
2. The Outlaws constantly crap out

As far as doing business with your local hi-fi dealer, they are all total rip offs and scam artists in my findings. I found a hi-end guy online that has much better prices, equipment, and service than those snobby local guys.

-Ed

Does everyone know that the original post was almost a year ago? Not sure if JFro even visits this site anymore. With electronics I find that if you are going to have a problem it usually raises its ugly head 6 months to a year after the purchase. JFro's amp begins to fail 6 months after his purchase. I have had my 770 for two years now and so far, (knock on wood), I have not had any problems. For what I saved on the purchase of the 770, I would expect to pay to return it for repairs and still be ahead. Not sure what his logic was. Maybe he was just frustrated and was venting, no one likes to disconnect a piece of equipment, box it up and ship it out. I would be interested to know who has had their 770 the longest without any repairs.

Why are we still beating what should be a dead horse? :rolleyes:

not a whole lot of interest being posted lately, so i guess people feel the need to rehash old topics.

Good lord, it's $54.

sbcgroup1,

It's a D70. They did fix it, and I did use it to take pictures of the 990 at the HE show.

Maybe we should bring back to life the "sick of waiting for the 950" thread.

the quote the guy made about going meridian .. if he has 10000 to 20000 $$ to get 5 to 7 channels of power why is he in this room .. outlaw is for us audio enthusiasts that want great products that we can buy without breaking us .. meridian is not even near the same class .. thats like comparing a nice camaro z28 that we could or at least i could afford .. to a lamborgini diablo .. you can still go fast and have fun in the z28 but you cant do it and pull up to a bunch of gawking yuppies .. just a working mans point of view .. outlaw has earned respect and customer service has been a big part of that ... oh and i ve known meridian sales reps .. mark up is sick ... how many traveling salesmen does outlaw have ??? overhead??? theyput the money in the product .. 5 year warranty .. match that ?? ATI but they are outlaws friends !!