Why Aren't I Getting Analog Bypass From Analog Outputs of Outlaw 950?

I've just recently acquired the Outlaw 950. It is driven by a Sony 5 channel amplifier, into a Klipsch 5.1 setup with a Velodyne suwoofer.

I've just added the Denon DVD-2200, which is a "universal" single disc player. I have its component video outputs going into the outlaw, as well as the s-video and the digital output (I've assigned it Coax 1).

I also have analog cables going out from the Denon's "5.1" bypass regtion, into those corresponding inputs on the Outlaw.

When I configure the menu, obviously the DVD player is the same as the SACD player--thus, a "universal" player. DVDs, by the way, work fine, as do CDs.

When I try to play a SACD, however, I get no signal. I switch to the analog bypass setting on the front of the outlaw (recognizing that I wouldn't get anything from the digital output, but, thus far, nada.

Anyone experienince this? Haven't tried DVD-Auioy yet. but I'm either missing something with the Outlaw or the Denon.

Thanks,

Nick Satullo

You want to select the "6 CH" input to use the 5.1 analog inputs. The "analog bypass" switches to using the stereo analog input, which isn't connected.

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

Still doesn't work.

If I read you correctly, whenever I want to use the 5.1 analog outputs of the Denon, into those inputs of the Outlaw, I will have to switch the Outlaw from Coax 1 (it's digital connection) to "Six channel Stereo."

I just did that. I am still getting no sound from the SACD playback.

Maybe I'm missing something more? Thanks for your time.

Nick Satullo

That's not quite it, Nick. You don't want to select "Six Channel Stereo." You want to select "6 Ch" on the remote. It's the button on the lower right that also has "Next" printed on it. That will activate the 5.1 input.

Bob's hit the nail on the head. You need to use the six channel analog input any time you want to listen to SACD's or DVD-Audio discs. "Six channel stereo" is a processing mode for stereo audio sources (digital or analog). This link (to part of my 950 review) might help you automate the switch to six channel.

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

It works. Thanks.

Nick

One more point to keep in mind, Nick. If you're trying to play a multichannel SACD or DVD-A, make sure you switch to 6 CH DIRECT from another multichannel source (e.g. Dolby Digital, DTS or 5 Channel Stereo). If you are playing something in stereo and you switch to 6 CH DIRECT, you'll only get the front left and front right of the material in your Denon.

Enjoy the gear.

Dollarbill,

I think you've just answered my most recent post about the trouble I was having getting all channels output from my 950 in SACD mode.
Kinda quirky behavior is you ask me, but now that I know the problem, I can work around it.
I'll let the replies come in on my post so that others will be able to see them.

Pete

>You want to select the "6 CH" input to use the 5.1 analog inputs. The "analog bypass" switches to using the stereo analog input, which isn't connected.

I'm also running the Outlaw 950 / Denon 2200 combination. The Denon has both a pair of R1/L1 & R2/R2 outputs. I've hooked the R1/L1 out up to the CD input of the 950 and the R2/L2, surrounds, center, & sub to the DVD inputs. I've then set CD and DVD up as if they were different units on the 950. In doing so, I can use the analog bypass and listen to stereo CD's or switch to DVD for SACD/DVDs. I listen to a lot of music so like having the option to use the bypass.

Thats what I do with my Denon 1600, for the same reasons.

You may be saying the same thing here. Not sure. I, too, have a 950/2200 combo. I've discovered that with just having the 5.1 analog connection to the 950, by switching to 6 CH DIRECT, I get great analog 2 channel for CD's and 5.1 for SACD & DVD-A. No reason for a connection to the CD input. It simplifies things greatly.

gurndrc

In that configuration can you use the stereo bypass?

In that configuration (the same one I use), he uses the 6CH input -- he treats CD's the same as DVD-Audio or SACD discs.

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gonk -- 950 Review | LFM-1 Review | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | Saloon Links

In that configuration, there is no reason to use stereo by-pass. It does the same thing. It basically puts you in an analog mode. You are only going to get the signal that is on your material. In the case of CDs, Left and Right. In the case of SACDs or DVD-A, 5.1.

Or maybe 3.0, 4.0 or 5.0

I don't want to make this issue any more confusing than it already is but there is an important difference when using the multi channel analog inputs vs. the 2 channel stereo inputs. The difference is analog bass management which can't be defeated entirely applies only to the multi-channel inputs. This means if you use the 5.1 inputs all bass info below 80Hz in either the left or right channels will be summed and sent to the subwoofer output jack...even with analog bass management rear panel switch set to "off". The dreaded double bass issue raises it's ugly head once again. The solution is to set the switch to on and engage the hi-pass filtering to the left and right signals or leave it off and turn off the sub amp.
Routing the left and right signals from DVD or CD player to a 2-channel input is a better idea in my opinion. With stereo bypass engaged no signal is present on the sub output if the front speakers are set-up as large. Setting them to small engages the digital bass management and will send a summed bass signal to the output based on the crossover settings. This is double bass again since the front signals will not be rolled off but you can control the crossover frequency. Analog bass management is fixed at 80Hz.
Hope this helps.

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Tekdredger

So after reading all this I have embarringly discovered I haven't been listening to SACD in the right mode, and worse, that I can't seem to get sound in the 6 Ch mode. Have the cables hooked up correctly (as well as L1/R1 to the CD inputs - maybe this causes a problem). Have tried switching from DTS to 6ch - no sound in either...what am I missing???

Hello all.

I have been having a similar problem to those brought up in this thread. I have a 950/7100 combo and a Denon 2200. I currently have only 2 mains and center channel (the sub and rears are in the works). Allow me to briefly describe the problem that I have been having. I cannot get the center channel to play anything when I switch to direct 6-channel bypass. I currently have the 950 configured to output to a 5.1 system. I wanted to remove that as any possible reason why it would not play out of the center channel. Additionally, the most peculiar part by far is when I am in direct 6-channel bypass and enter the Denon's setup screen and play test tones. The center plays the tone fine when prompted. I can hop right out of that screen and have it play a multichannel SACD and get nothing from the center. The center performs correctly under all other modes that I have tried.

Does anyone have any ideas? I'm sure it is something simple that I have missed, but I can't seem to figure it out. I have tried everything that I can think of to fix this. I know that it is not a problem with the interconnect, and from what I mentioned previously, I think it is something with the Denon because the Outlaws seem to pass the signal along fine, but it is set to multi channel and I have tried every possible combination of configurations I can think of.

Thanks for your help.

~Matt


[This message has been edited by mthen10 (edited March 29, 2004).]

By the way . . .

After setting things up, and making my initial post, I THOUGHT I had solved the problem. Then I had some travel, returned, and . . . . I never really had gotten past 2 channel.

However . . .even switching to 6 Ch audio with multichannel SACD only gets me stereo. I have confirmed that the disc is indeed multichannel, as I have played it in multichannel on my other SACD player.

Houston, we have a problem. There might be a compatibility issue with the Denon 2200, but, whatever it is, it needs to get addressed right now. My hope is that the folks at Outlaw will address the problem.

Thanks,

Nick Satullo

This is all quite odd... Let's see if we can track down some possible solutions. I doubt that there's a compatibility issue between the two units, since we're talking about nothing more than an analog input.

First, if you switch to the 6ch input and get only left and right channels, make sure you are switching to that input from a multichannel input. If you switch to it from an input configured to play back in stereo, the 6ch input only enables the left and right channels -- it's a known bug. Switch through an input using some surround processing (any surround processing), and you'll get all six channels.

If you are switching to the 6ch input from another input that is in surround mode, and you still get no sound or only stereo sound, it is time to (1) check all interconnects to be sure none are loose and (2) dig into the Denon's setup menu. I know some SACD players have to be told whether to play back in multichannel mode or in stereo mode, since the SACD format was originally stereo only, and the default for the 2200 might be stereo. There is a note on page 14 of the 2200's manual that says "Set the “SUPER AUDIO CD” setting under “AUDIO SETUP” to “MULTI”." -- I'd check to see that "Super Audio CD" in Audio Setup is set to Multichannel and not stereo or CD (if it was set to CD, a non-hybrid SACD might cause tjandriesen's problems). I'd also make sure "Audio Channels" was set to "multichannel" as well.

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gonk -- 950 Review | LFM-1 Review | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | Saloon Links

Hello again,

Perhaps I can provide a tad more detail to what all I have tried to remedy this. I have switched from any number of the surround outputs to 6ch direct. The center does happily play when in the surround mode, and it is cut off when the switch is made. We therefore know that the interconnect between the 950 and the 7100 is functional. Also, that rules out a different downstream wiring issue.

From what I mentioned in my previous post, the center channel will play test tones generated by the 2200 when the 950 is in 6ch direct. I have everything laid out on the floor now and the only inputs that I have running between the 2200 and the 950 are connected to the 950’s multi channel inputs.

Gonk, you are correct about the options in the Denon’s audio setup menu. There are actually two different items under that audio setup menu that could be causing the problems. There is a “audio channel” setting that can either be set to “multichannel” or “2 channel.” The next item is “Super Audio CD” which can be set to either “multichannel,” “stereo,” or “CD.” Strangely, SACDs labeled as SACD only (not readable by normal cd players) will play when the “CD” option is selected in this menu. However the display on the 2200 still calls it a SACD. I can compound this more by saying that SACDs that have a normal cd layer on them will play and show up on the 2200’s display as CD’s when that option is selected.

Back on track, the menus are all set to mutli on the 2200. The Denon remembers the settings between discs and being powered off, so that isn’t the problem. Additionally, you have to be in multichannel mode to have access to the speaker configuration menu in the Denon that allows you to test other surround channels. The menu will only let you test the mains if you are set to stereo. This is where I am able to play the test tones that work.

I have a feeling that it is a quirk with the Denon because I can’t see how the 950 would manage to alter music input but not test tone input. Sorry for the long read, but I would still really appreciate any ideas.

Regards,
Matt


UPDATE: I think I have solved my problem, hopefully it can help some others. I disc I was using to test everything was Aerosmith's Ultimate hits 2 SACD set. The fancy sleeve it was in said it was multichannel. I have a few others that have stereo sleeves and didn't think anything of it. So just to try something new I drop some Toto IV in the denon. Boom, the center channel plays perfectly. Upon closer inspection of the Aerosmith disc, it is not multi channel as the sleeve said. Now I'm gonna have to yell at Bestbuy and Sony, and from previous experience I know that talking to each is like talking to a wall.


[This message has been edited by mthen10 (edited March 30, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by mthen10 (edited March 30, 2004).]

After I posted earlier today, I dug a bit deeper into the 2200's manual. Setting SACD to "CD" will cause it to attempt to play a CD layer, but if there is no CD layer available it will automatically switch to the SACD layer. That explains mthen10's experience with SACD's that lack a CD layer The manual isn't clear on how it will then decide between stereo and multichannel if both are available.

There's not a lot that can be done as far as publishers providing insufficient or inaccurate labeling of their products. One thing that can be done is to lean on the player to shed some light on what is really coming from the disc. In the case of the 2200, there is a set of indicators on the top right corner of the display that show what channels are actively being output. That should help identify discs that are 5.1, 5.0, 2.0, or something in between such as 4.0 (assuming it works with DVD-Audio and SACD discs, which I would certainly hope it would).

mthen10 offers a good suggestion: the 2200's test tones. If you can get test tones from the 2200 on all six channels, then you know that the 950 is functioning correctly and all of the interconnects in the signal path are correct.

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gonk -- 950 Review | LFM-1 Review | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | Saloon Links

On my Denon 1600 I always ht the "display" button on the DVD remote to check it's output because sometimes it will default to stereo instead of multi channel. The display comes up 96K 24b 6ch for the multi channel and 192K 24b 2ch for the stereo. Of course the frequency and bits will represent what the recoding is.

So I checked the settings on the Denon 2200.

Audio Channel: Multichannel
SACD: Multi
Digital Out: Normal
LPCM: Off
Bass Enhancer: Off

Further, under Multichannel all speakers are set to large and sub to Yes.

SACD - I check and it was one - nada. Switched there from various other digital modes.

Test Tones - None, not a peep... in any channel

Now, I did just play a DVD and it register as being 5.1 on the display and sounded that way as well.

I checked all the cables. They are all hooked up right. So there is either a problem with the Dennon outputting the signals or the Outlaw reading the signals. There is no problem with a stereo signal or seemingly the digital signal. Any ideas on how I can isolate which?

BTW does anyone from Outlaw monitor these posts or do I have to go over this with them in full again?

Tim

I've been following along with the discovery process. Feel free to call me at tomorrow at 866-OUTLAWS.

Best,

Scott

I'm new to SACD and the 950, and wish I had read this thread a bit earlier, but it's been a big help. I'm curious about the issue of nothing coming from the center channel on '"surround" SACD mixes. Is it possible that many (or all?) of these are mixed without a center channel signal? After all, it's designed for dialogue in film soundtracks, and perhaps the idea is that correct imaging between L & R front creates the center for music?? Just a theory. Does anyone have a setup where they do hear something from these SACD mixes from the center?

Pick up the Pink Floyd DSOTM SACD. If you not hearing your center channel, or your sub for that matter, then something is up with your playback system. Also, it is very much a reference SACD worth picking up.

As for other SACDs, it will be different from disc to disc on wether there is a center channel or not. It is completely the engineer's/producer's choice of wether or not to include it.

For more info on your discs, try these sites:
www.sacdinfo.com
www.highfidelityreview.com

I response to nealk's concerns, the only reason that my center channel wasn't working was because the disc I was using was improperly labeled as a multi-channel disc. All other multi-channel SACDs play as expected. I was only able to use the center channel as a determining factor because I have no rears or sub presently. The Billy Joel Stranger CD has his voice emanating almost exclusively from the center channel. I hope this alleviated some of your concerns. I just wish I had realized that the disc was incorrectly labeled before I tore everything apart and bothered everyone here. Sorry to have caused any unfounded concerns.

Regards,
Matt