The 950 & 7100

My friend just turned me onto the 950 & 7100. After reading the reviews, I am pretty much sold on it, but I had a question about THX. I understand it's just a set of standards that a receiver must meet. The 950 doesn't appear to have it. Is THX just hype created by Mr. Lucas or is it really worth looking for in a processor? Does it make a significant impact on the quality? If anyone could enlighten me I would greatly appreciate it.

Yes,
It is hype. It is very likely the 950 could pass all the THX tests but it is an expensive certification that would only increase the price of the 950. While it does give a certain sense of security as to some degree of quality if you are purchasing a lesser known brand. You know it can at least do enough to pass the THX cert. I don't think that needs to be a concern on the 950.

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Stott

[This message has been edited by stott (edited November 18, 2003).]

There is some hype to the THX logo. I recall reading a rash of DVD reviews a year or two back where the reviewers kept picking up "THX Certified" discs with disappointing transfers. It seems to have gotten better lately, but I don't know how much of that is because of near-universal improvements in the mastering process lately and how much is due to THX. With equipment, THX certification is a mix of marketing flash and a specific approach to surround sound.

THX certification for speakers is a combination of tests (quality control) and standards for frequency response (THX speaker systems are designed to work around an 80Hz crossover between full range speakers and sub). THX certification for receivers includes THX's own processing -- a variation of Dolby Digital, essentially. Most notably, Dolby initially did not license EX processing to the home theater market for the first two and a half years or so after it was introduced, but THX had THX EX almost immediately -- the only way to get "true" EX processing at the time. The 950 does not include THX processing, but it was one of the first products to include Dolby EX after Dolby began licensing it in late 2001.

How valuable is THX? Very debatable, but personally I agree with stott that it is over-hyped. The 950 includes a robust set of processing -- Dolby Digital and EX, DTS and DTS-ES, Pro Logic II, DTS:NEO6, and the very nice Cirrus Extra Surround. You won't miss the processing modes, and the performance of the 950 is excellent.

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

I agree that THX is hyped, but I think it justified. Equipment that carries the THX logo HAS to meet certain performance criteria, which in essence gives the consumer a high quality component. The companies that pursue the logo certification do tend to sell their product at a higher price but you the consumer KNOW the standards the equipment has met. On the other side of the coin, their are numerous equipment makers (OutLaw included) that seem to not certify their equipment with the THX testing but offer GREAT product nonetheless. The companies that dont formally carry the logo may have the same performance though...

[This message has been edited by RayBan (edited November 18, 2003).]

Precisely. And I think the 950 and Outlaw's amps could safely be placed in that category.

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

I'm not going to lambast THX. I think their efforts have helped much more than hurt, but it is, after all, a commercial venture. A few comments ...

There are some 'THX certified' theaters that, if I were a 'certified THX certifier,' I would yank the theater's cert for the way it sounds in there. But perhaps all the specs are met, and so the THX cert stays in place.

As to the 950, don't sweat the lack of THX cert. Prior to the 950 I was using a THX-certified Onkyo 'Ampli-tuner.' The 950/770 is a noticable improvement.

Thanks for the info. It sounds like 950 has more than sufficient amount of processing. I just wish I could listen to it before purchasing it. I have only heard good things about this product. I guess I can't go wrong. I plan on getting the 950 & 7100 to complement my Definitive Technology BP2002TL's. Does anyone have a similar setup using Def Techs?

Funny that you should mention DefTech speakers at the moment. There's been a pretty energetic discussion of that very subject over the last few days.

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

LVThunder...I've got BP2006TL's in the front, CLR2300 Center, and BPX's in the rear.
There's more Def Tech talk in the link above that Gonk was nice enough to provide..

D.

Thanks for the link, Gonk. I have another issue that I am unsure about. Since the 950 does all that sound decoding, what should I look for in a DVD audio player? I notice many DVD players have the Dolby and DTS logo. Is that what I should look for or would I be buying the processing twice?

The Dolby and DTS logos typically mean that it will pass a DD and DTS digital signal. Most do not contain onboard decoding -- anymore, only DVD-Audio or SACD players include it, because they already have the analog outputs required by an onboard decoder (and in those cases, you are only getting the DD and/or DTS decoding as an afterthought; I still let my 950 handle it even though my DVD-A player has DD & DTS decoders). If you're looking for DVD-A, you'll end up with DD and DTS decoding as well -- it's pretty unavoidable -- but you don't have to use it.

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

My old Onkyo TX-SV919 reciever was THX Certified, and it seriously KICKED BOOTY!!!!

THX doens't mean quite what it meant back then. Back in the days when Dolby Digital was brand new, the addition of stereo ("decorrelated") rears to a DPL signal was a Big Deal™. Believe me the difference between ProLogic and THX enhanced ProLogic was dramatic, and my LaserDiscs all sounded magnificent.

It took a long time for DPLII to bring this technology to the masses, and for people who listen to lots of DPL material (such as most TV broadcasts), this is important.

However, nowadays the THX logo offers less than it did back then.

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Philip Hamm

i wouldnt necessarily buy anything because its thx certified, however if i had a choice between two models same price, same sound, etc., why not opt for the thx. it proves the product is at least up to their standards, gives you some sound modes. of course the situation above would never happen, so that point is moot. thx as it applies to equipment is not all hype, but some companies opt out of it for cost reasons, and im sure other opt out because their product may not meet specs. with an internet only product, im surprised outlaw didnt opt for it considering word of mouth is there best advertising.... im sure more people would feel comfortable with thx stamped on the product, considering most have not seen or heard it when they order. as far as dvds, thx is gunk, there are a few other dvd standards that give you better quality, superbit is one, but ive seen lots of movies with thx and lots without and i have never seen any difference. i have even seen the same movie with and without and didnt see a difference..... anyway, im gonna invent a certification up to my standards and then sell it. itll be at the consumer level though, so if you feel your equipment isnt up to par id come and verify that for you. lol.. j/k.

Based on some discussion in older newsletters, it seems clear that Outlaw considered it, but for the price range they were trying to complete in (alongside the Rotel RSP-1066, for example, which also excludes THX) they felt that the additional cost to go through THX certification was too significant for too little performance return. (I just noticed that Rotel's got a big new pre/pro coming out soon that also omits THX.)

The online market is definitely a different environment than the storefront, as several companies have been proving in recent years. Look at companies like SVS, BetterCables, or AV123 (with their distribution of the Swan and Rocket speakers) and the success that they've had. Or look at other markets -- Baen Books (a science fiction publisher), for example, maintains a forum similar to the Saloon and makes many of their books available for free download (a behavior that is in direct opposition to the policy of other publishers); by offering a book free online, they typically see sales of that book, its sequels, and other books by that author increase. In Outlaw's case, one could make a case that Outlaw relies on venues like this forum (and the 30-day return policy, of course) to offer a sense of reassurance to potential buyers, as opposed to pursuing THX certification as an indicator of quality. It's in some ways a riskier approach -- you can see a lot more honest picture of user satisfaction with the Outlaw products here, foibles and all, than would be visible with THX certification -- but judging by their success in the last couple years I'm guessing that it has paid off.

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

I think the THX certification has been diluted recently with their "2nd tier" HT components (ultra vs select or whatever) and their certification of computer speakers, car equipment etc. A THX certified popcorn machine doesn't seem too far fetched! It gives me the impression that they are more concerned with making money than keeping a lofty standard alive. At one time, the THX logo meant only one thing (highest quality), now it seems to mean whatever their creative marketing department would like it to mean to enhance profits.

A moving "standard" is no standard at all.