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#96319 - 02/08/17 02:59 AM 10 Band EQ on the 976
Owl's_Warder Offline
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Registered: 06/29/01
Posts: 894
Loc: Grants Pass, OR
So I could use a bit of an education here. I see a lot of software acronyms and discussion of using them with the 10 band EQ in the 976 in lieu of built-in room correction. Is anyone willing to shed some light on that process and how it works?

For both the 1050 and the 975, I just used my trusty Radio Shack SPL meter and the test signals to set everything up and then adjusted the .1 channel "by hand" as it never really seemed to register properly with a test signal. I just fiddled with the sub level until it sounded good to me and called it a day. That's given me great results in our home so far. smile

How does a 10 band EQ change this process? What does the software do? Honestly, I'm enough in the dark with this change I'm not entirely even sure what questions to ask but I'm hoping this is a good starting point for a conversation on it.

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#96320 - 02/08/17 11:46 AM Re: 10 Band EQ on the 976 [Re: Owl's_Warder]
XenonMan Offline
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Registered: 04/08/08
Posts: 2676
Loc: Columbus,North Carolina
Your trusty RadioShack meter only measures SPL of the test signal coming from a speaker. Usually the signal is some variation of white noise or other generic tone that includes many different frequencies of the sound. The 10 band EQ will allow you to adjust the relative level of 10 individual bands of frequencies sort of like a very sophisticated tone control. Thus you could boost the midrange and decrease the high end if you so choose. This will allow you to customize the sound in your room to your specific tastes. Note that this is quite a bit like a manual version of the Digital Signal Processing you find in many processors (Arena, Lounge, Theater, Stadium, Opera and many more) although many of those also add some amount of reverberation to get the desired effect. The setup should be similar to what you do now where you measure the distance and adjust the SPL of each channel to be the same at you listening position. After that is complete is when I think you would employ the Equalizer to adjust the sound to your preference. The EQ will basically allow you to attenuate or boost the individual frequencies to your room and tastes. Depending on how much adjustment is allowed by the EQ this can give you an incredible amount of control over the sound. Most companies don't include it as an option because most of us want the output of our systems to mirror what is recorded as closely as possible. For the folks that like to tweek their systems and play with the room a lot the Equalizer will be a joy. Bear in mind Equalizers are available aftermarket.
_________________________
Music system
Model 990/7500/Magnepan 1.6 QRs/Technics SL1200 MK2/Aperion S-12 Subwoofer/OWA3/Sony NS75H DVD
APC H15 Power Conditioner

TV System
Large Advent Loudspeakers/ Polk center/Monoprice surrounds/Panasonic Viera 42 inch/Onkyo HT-RC260/Sony BDP S590/Directv


Home Theater System
Onkyo PR-SC886/Outlaw 7125 Klipsch RF-82 L/R,RC-62 center, RB-35 SR/SL, BENQ HT1075, Outlaw LFM1-EX/OPPO BDP-83/Directv
Harmony ONE
Blue Jeans and Monoprice interconnects
APC H15 Power Conditioner

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#96321 - 02/08/17 12:15 PM Re: 10 Band EQ on the 976 [Re: Owl's_Warder]
renov8r Offline
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Registered: 11/13/02
Posts: 336
Loc: Illinois
The folks who run the miniDSP organization give a nice overview of how a PARAMETRIC eq differs from a traditional "graphic equalizer" -- https://www.minidsp.com/applications/dsp-basics/peq-vs-graphic-eq

Key points --
In a parametric equalizer, each filter cuts or boosts a range of frequencies. Each filter has three controls:

frequency: the center of the frequency range to be cut or boosted
gain: the amount of boost or cut
Q: the "sharpness" of the boost or cut, with higher Q meaning a narrower filter

Parametric EQ thus allows a single filter to be very narrow or quite wide, and it is therefore very useful for correcting frequency response errors in a loudspeaker or reducing peaks caused by room modes. When implemented digitally, parametric filters can also take the shape of a "shelving" filter, which boost or cuts frequencies above or below the filter frequency.

Here is a very nice overview of how one can easily use the free Room Eq Wizard software to measure in-situ speaker response and have the software calculate suggested settings to achieve a desired target curve -- https://mehlau.net/audio/room-correction-peq/

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#96322 - 02/08/17 12:31 PM Re: 10 Band EQ on the 976 [Re: Owl's_Warder]
renov8r Offline
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Registered: 11/13/02
Posts: 336
Loc: Illinois
I will add that the most well known firm, Audyssey, is rather coy about exactly how many filters are technically available in products they license -- https://audyssey.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/212347743

Quote:
The filter resolution depends on the processor in the AVR. It is where the filters have to run ultimately and so they will be XT or XT32 depending on which AVR you have.


Once upon a time they did offer stand-alone eq -- https://www.avforums.com/review/audyssey-multeq-xt-pro-sound-equalizer-review.2

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#96323 - 02/08/17 12:42 PM Re: 10 Band EQ on the 976 [Re: Owl's_Warder]
renov8r Offline
Desperado

Registered: 11/13/02
Posts: 336
Loc: Illinois
I have been very impressed by the products offered by Wisdom Audio, though I do not have the budget that allows me to own them. They are very honest about why they have partnered with Audyssey and I would encourage anyone interested in understanding what makes their solutions so costly to read the FAQs -- http://www.wisdomaudio.com/faq.php

Keep in mind that the technology is about a decade old now, but the various "feuds", coupled with lack of scale, has NOT allowed this part of the industry to advance as rapidly has some had hoped...


Quote:
Why do you use an automated room correction system like Audyssey instead of manual parametric EQ?

A: Actually, we use both.

The SC-1 incorporates active crossovers, parametric EQ that is transparent to the installer, and Audyssey MultEQ XT which must be calibrated using MultEQ Pro software on a PC. (We train our dealers to do the calibration; it is not something the owner has to worry about.)

A few points:

MultEQ Pro has vastly more resolution than any parametric EQ. You would need something like 500 bands of parametric EQ per channel to achieve similar results, assuming you had the time, skill, and instrumentation.
MultEQ Pro optimizes in both the amplitude and the time domains.
MultEQ Pro does have a finite number of target curves, whereas manual EQ can shoot for any given target. It is important to note that our target curves are different than the standard Audyssey curves (since they represent the final "voicing" of our speakers in the room).
It is highly likely that one of our curves will be pretty close to what an experienced installer would try to do. Curve editing (part of the MultEQ Pro software) will likely get the installer the rest of the way (±3 dB from whichever target curve is selected).

There are multiple levels of implementation of MultEQ XT. If you only have experience only with the lowest level, receiver-based implementation, you don't know what you're missing. It is like comparing tone controls to true parametric EQ, saying that they do basically the same thing. They are drastically different in capability.

We find that parametric EQ is excellent for "roughing in" a system; MultEQ's additional resolution works best for the final tuning.

That's not to say that our way is the only way. Far from it. But if you want to get outstanding results quickly, easily, and consistently, it will be hard do better than the SC-1.

Q: Why did you select Audyssey MultEq XT as your room correction technology?

A: Our previous approach to room correction (bi-amping and lots of parametric EQ) delivered great results, but it was extremely time-consuming, and it required a tremendous amount of experience on the part of the person doing the calibration. The hard part is not operating the equipment; the hard part is analyzing the room's many problems and prioritizing them, and coming up with a strategy for tackling them. In fact, one of the most important lessons is learning which problems you ought not to try to fix. (In some cases, the "solution" is worse than the original problem.)

Audyssey's MultEQ XT encapsulates this most-difficult part of the process in software, in effect capturing decades of experience in a program that is installed on a laptop. In the case of the SC-1, we also use the same powerful DSP engine used in the $5000 Audyssey Professional Sound Equalizer to maximize the resolution of the resulting correction filters. The combination is amazingly powerful and effective.

The subjective result is comparable to the calibrations our own people achieved under our old system (in some ways, even better). But these results can be achieved by our dealers (after they go through our mandatory training program), in about an hour. Contrast that with us having to send our own people all over the world, and a calibration process that usually required several days.



Edited by renov8r (02/08/17 06:01 PM)

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#96329 - 02/08/17 05:29 PM Re: 10 Band EQ on the 976 [Re: Owl's_Warder]
XenonMan Offline
Desperado

Registered: 04/08/08
Posts: 2676
Loc: Columbus,North Carolina
At this point we need more info about how Outlaw plans to incorporate the EQ. I would imagine a menu screen which allows you to manually set the parameters within a set band. That would then be the way the system responds to all forms of sound coming out of the sources. The announcement speaks to an automated setup system but doesn't really go so far as to what process is to be used (ie like Audyssey, Dirac or ARC) if any. For the price I would imagine a setup system similar to what the 990 had and then a manual version of EQ.
_________________________
Music system
Model 990/7500/Magnepan 1.6 QRs/Technics SL1200 MK2/Aperion S-12 Subwoofer/OWA3/Sony NS75H DVD
APC H15 Power Conditioner

TV System
Large Advent Loudspeakers/ Polk center/Monoprice surrounds/Panasonic Viera 42 inch/Onkyo HT-RC260/Sony BDP S590/Directv


Home Theater System
Onkyo PR-SC886/Outlaw 7125 Klipsch RF-82 L/R,RC-62 center, RB-35 SR/SL, BENQ HT1075, Outlaw LFM1-EX/OPPO BDP-83/Directv
Harmony ONE
Blue Jeans and Monoprice interconnects
APC H15 Power Conditioner

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#96337 - 02/09/17 01:51 AM Re: 10 Band EQ on the 976 [Re: Owl's_Warder]
Owl's_Warder Offline
Desperado

Registered: 06/29/01
Posts: 894
Loc: Grants Pass, OR
Hmm.... Some good info to get me thinking here. Thanks! smile

Maybe we'll have to revisit this topic once we know more about how the 976 will roll.

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#96338 - 02/09/17 10:29 AM Re: 10 Band EQ on the 976 [Re: Owl's_Warder]
renov8r Offline
Desperado

Registered: 11/13/02
Posts: 336
Loc: Illinois
Originally Posted By Owl's_Warder
Hmm.... Some good info to get me thinking here. Thanks! smile

Maybe we'll have to revisit this topic once we know more about how the 976 will roll.


I am sure that the tradition of Outlaw offering a very detailed document that lays out various usage scenarios will be a big part of the work that will differentiate the 976. I can already envision using the PEQ in several ways that would be consistent with how folks currently use external DSP devices...

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#96340 - 02/09/17 02:14 PM Re: 10 Band EQ on the 976 [Re: Owl's_Warder]
XenonMan Offline
Desperado

Registered: 04/08/08
Posts: 2676
Loc: Columbus,North Carolina
IMHO, one of the great disadvantages of a PEQ is that once it is tuned to the masters ears it may sound odd to others. For instance, my 60 year old ears are less sensitive to the 4K-6K band so I may actually boost those frequencies to a point where it sounds weird to my wife who, as all wives do, has catlike hearing. The room corrections which use a microphone to set the processors DSP are at least trying to make the system neutral so that it sound natural to most people. I think that for the most part, higher end equipment tends to shy away from manually adjusted PEQ to discourage users from making their equipment sound different than intended.
_________________________
Music system
Model 990/7500/Magnepan 1.6 QRs/Technics SL1200 MK2/Aperion S-12 Subwoofer/OWA3/Sony NS75H DVD
APC H15 Power Conditioner

TV System
Large Advent Loudspeakers/ Polk center/Monoprice surrounds/Panasonic Viera 42 inch/Onkyo HT-RC260/Sony BDP S590/Directv


Home Theater System
Onkyo PR-SC886/Outlaw 7125 Klipsch RF-82 L/R,RC-62 center, RB-35 SR/SL, BENQ HT1075, Outlaw LFM1-EX/OPPO BDP-83/Directv
Harmony ONE
Blue Jeans and Monoprice interconnects
APC H15 Power Conditioner

Top
#96345 - 02/10/17 01:05 PM Re: 10 Band EQ on the 976 [Re: XenonMan]
renov8r Offline
Desperado

Registered: 11/13/02
Posts: 336
Loc: Illinois
Originally Posted By XenonMan
IMHO, one of the great disadvantages of a PEQ is that once it is tuned to the masters ears it may sound odd to others. For instance, my 60 year old ears are less sensitive to the 4K-6K band so I may actually boost those frequencies to a point where it sounds weird to my wife who, as all wives do, has catlike hearing. The room corrections which use a microphone to set the processors DSP are at least trying to make the system neutral so that it sound natural to most people. I think that for the most part, higher end equipment tends to shy away from manually adjusted PEQ to discourage users from making their equipment sound different than intended.


I suppose this is not too different than the questions regarding having your projector or flat-panel "professionally calibrated" vs relying on "factory setting" or just "tweaking" the settings yourself. OT1H it is pretty well accepted that the "showroom settings" default to a "melt your eyeballs" mix of hyper-brightness and super-saturated colors. Too many "calibration professionals" are intent on using settings that may look awesome in a pitch-black theater but are not exactly what you want in any kind of "normal" TV viewing. Fact is even the best sets are not going to do their best when there's sunshine streaming in from the horizon and honest calibrators will gently suggest that maybe some window blinds are a better investment than paying them hundreds to painstakinglu balance minute color / contrast / brightness settings...

Similarly the details of what all the speaker / audio electronics firms say relies on having a listening space that is has had at least some thought given over to control of sonic anomalies -- those big atrium style rooms in modern homes are going to introduce very different kinds of distortion than a foam-covered demo space.

Just as some folks prefer colors that "pop" a bit more than real-life there is nothing insanely "wrong" with have some subtle audio tweaks to make the upper mids a bit "enhanced" but the ol' caveat of logarithmic power increases for modest db boost is the real killer -- http://www.ecoustics.com/articles/secrets-amplifier-speaker-power-requirements/

With a smart understanding of how to gently set the width of the PEQ you can make a subtle or sharp change to the sound -- http://www.therecordingsolution.com/use-parametric-eq-settings-like-boss/



Edited by renov8r (02/10/17 01:25 PM)

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