Has speaker technology advanced during the past twenty years or so to a point that today's mid range speakers ($1000-2000+/pr) will readily outclass good vintage speakers? I still love my old but well maintained JBL 100Ts, especially now when driven by the 990/7700.

Of course, I realize the ultimate test is always in actual listening and comparing, but I was wondering if advancements in speaker technology have made as big a leap in improving the sound as have advancements in the other components.

I would expect at least some improvements (materials used for drivers being probably the biggest opportunity), but it would also have to depend on the specific new speaker and the specific vintage speaker being compared and on the condition of the vintage speaker - components such as speaker surrounds will deteriorate some over time, for example, which would have an effect on the sound.

Gonk wrote:

components such as speaker surrounds will deteriorate some over time, for example, which would have an effect on the sound.

Absolutely true. I have some Kef 107's. They were, of course,used. The surrounds had deteriorated. The store from which I bought installed new surrounds and had been doing it for years. A friend who has 107s had the same situation. His deteriorated and he noticed that they sounded terrible.

That store has other KEF models, requiring surrounds and they seem to be a major repairer of older KEFs. So at least for older KEFs figure that 100% of the woofers will require surround re-do.

I bought a pair on ebay, which I was able to inspect and audition prior to taking possession. It was close enought to go there (lucky !!!!). I listened and they sounded great. Also looked at and felt the woofers and surrounds.

If someone has KEFs needing repair, send me a PM and I'll providecontact info. The tech dept at that store did a great job.

Now my CROWN ES224 woofers (30 yrs old) seem perfect, both visually and sonically. So I guess the best thing is to check them yourself.

HTH

There is no doubt that, over the last twenty years, there has been some serious R&D performed that examined the behaviour of speakers - and our response to them. Canada's National Research Council has led the way in that regard - and the results can be "heard" through the likes of Paradigm, Energy, and psb speakers - to name just three.

However that does not mean that there are not older "vintage" speakers out there that can sound great as well.

And while many of them will suffer a variety of forms of deterioration (crossovers, cabinetry, drivers - all have their problems) a good speaker repair shop can restore them to essentially new condition.

In the case of the speakers that I use, the drivers will last forever so long as they are not physically abused (like when twits punch in the woofer cones etc.) however the crossovers / switches will almost always need to be refurbished after 10-20 years, and in one case the joint in one of the cabinets had to be re-glued and braced internally. Luckily a complete refurb, at an excellent local speaker shop, only costs $300 per speaker. Given that they easily compare to today's speakers costing in the $2-5k range, I considered it a good enough investment that I've now had all eight of the ones that I currently use done.

They will outlive me.

Jeff Mackwood

Great topic for discussion!

What you can get for under $1,000 these days blows me away.

I used to sell high end gear in the late 80s. With the advantage of dealer cost, I had the pleasure of owning several speakers that, at retail levels, would now be out of my price range. These included Martin Logan Sequel's, Celestion SL600's, Snell CIII's and a pair of humongous Mirage M1's. The Mirage's alone were $5,000 MSRP.

While all of these speakers were incredible in their day and still outperfom most of the junk at your average stereo store of 2006, I think nearly 2 decades of improvements in materials, drivers, cabinet designs, etc. have really improved speaker performance.

I recently updgraded to some nice, but budget-oriented speakers. In terms of their midrange purity, holographic imaging and ability to disappear, my new Quad 11Ls (MSRP approx. $700) perform at a level that, 20 years ago, would have gone for 2-3 times that. For example, I recall my Celestions were $1,600 retail and were oriented toward the same niche as the Quads (small monitors). I am sure the Quads would outclass the Celestions now.

I would love to see how large floorstanders would compare to the stuff I owned 20 years ago. My feeling is that if adjusted for inflation, you would have to compare them to speakers about twice their 80s retail levels. That really opens up a wide field of big buck speakers.

The good news is that you can get great sound without breaking the bank to a much greater degree than what was available two decades ago (IMHO).

Hi Jeff M:
Regarding crossovers. You mention that a refurb will probably be in order within 10-20 years... My speakers are 20 years old but still sound fine.
Are the components for crossovers of better quality/materials today that age alone is sufficient reason for refurbishing, or should I wait until I notice a deterioration in sound quality?

Steveo616,

Great questions!

Here's my theory / answer.

I'll first digress. Speakers don't "break-in" - your ears do. In other words you grow accustomed to what's familiar.

So you listen to the same pair of speakers for years and guess what? They usually keep sounding great to you. So if they deteriorate very very slowly, your ears may never notice the slow change. So long as they don't get to the point where something actually fails (like a physical defect that causes audible buzzing or distortion) you're still gonna like them - especially if you don't spend much time listening to other speakers - or don't have a new set of identical speakers to compare them to (which most of us don't).

Now in the case of crossovers, my own ears don't seem to be all that sensitive to their deterioration. Why do I say so? Because I've never noticed an audible difference between one that's been refurbished - and one that hasn't. I'm talking about speakers that have not reached that obvious "hey I'm broken" stage.

I've taken a pair in. Got their crossovers repaired. In the process they've had a good handfull of components (always caps and resistors) replaced - all due to either i) them being out of original tolerance or ii) being obviously badly corroded - to the point where they literally snap off at the solder connection. Brought them back. Listened to them side-by-side with another pair that still work. And could not tell the difference.

On the other hand I've taken some in where there is no sound coming from a driver or two, or where it's obviously badly distorted - and in that case the crossover repair has brought them back to life. (I've never had to replace a driver that has not been physically abused - like having its dust cover punched in.)

What is likely happening is that the ones that show crossover oxidation etc - but still sound "normal" - are still at the point where my ears are both used to them (as they currently are) and can't pick up the perhaps faint "signs" that there is something wrong. Given a little more time they become the ones where absolute and obvious failure occurs.

So to answer your questions (finally) it could very well be that yours are still 100% ok. But it could also be that they have deteriorated - but not to the point where your ears notice. In that case, and assuming continued deterioration, they eventually would "fail" in a way that would be noticeable.

My advice: find a place that gives free quotes. Take them in. Have them look them over - and test the values of the various crossover components, check for corrosion, etc. - and tell you if it needs fixing and if so for how much. The shop I use gives such free quotes. I'm always surprised at how bad the components that they replace look.

Hope that helps.

Thanks for the comments, Jeff. Regarding the crossovers....have you ever heard of improving vintage speakers by redesigning/upgrading the crossovers? The reason I ask, is that for my speakers, the JBL L100t, many JBL fans have mentioned that the next model, L100T3, had better crossovers; the drivers were exactly the same and cabinet only had some structural supports added, but the 'sound was smoother and far more dynamic.' If so, then the improved quality appeared to result from the new crossovers, (there is a physical difference when comparing photos of both). So I'm wondering if its common to upgrade vintage crossovers as another option or is it best to stick with an OEM refurbish? Many thanks.

I can't speak to your particular speakers but I know a couple of things about mine. First, they are fairly old and replacement drivers are simply impossible to get. What I have had to do is buy a couple of pairs for the drivers only - and gut them. Secondly, the crossovers are four bandpass (ie. four-way: woofer, mid, tweeter, treble tweeter) and the individual components are spec'd to extremely tight tolerances. It is very difficult for even the repair shop that I use to match them up - and they usually can't get an exact match.

Having said that, I have never heard or noticed a difference in the end result.

So... with respect to your speakers here's my guess(es).

If someone were to replace the components with exact "value" matches, and even if they were much higher quality components, I doubt very much that there would be any sonic difference. Anyone claiming such is probably a great buyer of exotic cables! The only improvement with better quality components would be reliability / longer life - again in my opinion.

However, if someone were aware of an inherent design flaw or limitation in the crossover circuit, and came up with a design that improved upon the existing one, then yes they could very well achieve a different sound - and perhaps much different. Would it be better? Don't know. But my gut feeling is that most OEMs pretty much get it right, and unless it's them that's coming up with the new and improved version, then go with the OEM's specs.

Then again, this is a hobby (at lest to some) and just about any changes that you made, or had made, would be undoable if need be.

And having said all of that, there are some who swear by the practice of ripping out the passive crossovers and going to an active design. Not something I know anything about but you could check out the S&V Forums where the subject has come up on a number of occasions. Your speakers might make a good candidate for such a radical (complex, expensive) change.

Jeff Mackwood