I was seriously considering getting the Outlaw 950 + 7100 package recently, then I got to thinking... what does this package offer me, for $1500 or so (b-stock), that a similarly priced (or even lower priced!) receiver wouldn't offer me, other than the fact that the amp and processor are seperate? I couldn't come up with any valid answers, so I'm turning to the Outlaw forum. Any thoughts on this? The Denon 3803 streets for around $1200, and is apparently available for under a grand. The Outlaw package is available for $1700, new $1500 b-stock. That's a big difference in price, and I can't see what features justify that. I'm open to suggestions, as I like the idea of moving to seperates, but I don't think that alone is worth $500+.

Currently I have very small, but quite efficient speakers: The old Energy Take5 satellites. I also have an SVS 20-39pci sub. My current HT room is my living room which is small/medium in footprint, but high in volume, due to the vaulted ceilings of my condo. Given that info, I am not an upgrade-aholic... My current receiver is a Yamaha rx-v995, which was my first digital receiver, bought back in January of '98 I think. My speakers are even older. So, this purchase/upgrade to something like the 3803 or the 950+7100, should last a long time, and be appropriate for a possible speaker upgrade in the next year or two. I doubt I would upgrade the speakers to anything other than medium to large-ish bookshelfs. But, that's down the road regardless. For now, I'm happy with my take5's and besides I may be moving w/in the next year.

Thanks for any and all advice, ideas, thoughts, oppinions and/or suggestions!



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-Kieran

I'll toss out a few benefits of separates (950/7100 or other approaches) over receivers, even pretty nice receivers like the Denon.

- Better isolation of power amplification from signal switching/processing by putting them in separate boxes.
- Typically you can get better amps by buying a power amp than found in most receivers (example -- the Denon 3803's amps are rated to safely drive speakers down to a 6 ohm load, while a good amp like the 7100 can comfortably drive a 4 ohm load). See this thread for a little discussion on this topic.
- More flexible upgrade path. When the next big digital audio format comes along, you can keep your amplifier and upgrade the pre/pro only.

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

First, you've left out some disadvantage to separates - you'll also need seven interconnects (Outlaw sells nice ones in a package for about $100).

So why separates? The main benefit is picking and choosing features on the processor side, and picking and choosing power levels on the amp side. For example, the 950 is more flexible in setting crossover points than most receivers I've reviewed. Composite to S-video conversion is a huge convenience for VCR owners – a few receivers offer that feature, most don’t. [Note that Outlaw recommends against using this feature, though.] On the amp side, if you have power hungry 4 ohm beasts, you can match them with a monster amp. But if you have efficient, 8 ohm speaker loads, then honestly, the typical mid/high end receiver ought to have all the power you need unless your room is huge and/or you consistently listen at levels today that will ensure you can't hear anything tomorrow (due to hearing damage).

Audiophiles will claim sound quality is better with separates, and there may be something to that. However, in my experience, even when separates are an improvement, it's a very subtle thing. And when you stack up a 950/7100 combo vs. a higher end Denon or Yamaha, I’d be skeptical of “dramatic, clearly audible differences that my wife, my mother-in-law, and the dog all heard” without at least a properly calibrated A/B comparison (never mind double blind testing).

-avi

[This message has been edited by Avi (edited May 26, 2003).]

Woah... I didn't know that the 950 does a composite to s-vid conversion. That is nice.... in theory. I got all excited, then realized I don't own a vcr. And, if I were to buy one, I'd buy an s-vhs one anyway... they're so cheap these days.

I agree that seperates allow more flexibility, but realistically, even if I do upgrade my speakers, I doubt I'll be moving to 4-Ohm monsters... probably just better 8-Ohm speakers. So, the choice I would make would be an amp like the 7100, which to me, seems pretty similar to the amps found in some of the better receivers, although I've never demo'd the 7100, so that's just based on paper specs... which unless they're printed on Brawny paper towels, don't hold much water...

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-Kieran

Just a thought:

If you get a receiver with pre-amp outputs; you can always add an amplifier at a later date. The 950 will certainly give more control over those outputs than a receiver, but the option is there.

Seperates give a better upgrade path than a one-box solution. I know you said you're not thinking about it now but this technology is certainly changing. In a few years, your top of the line receiver is going to be missing some key features. Then you'll be stuck with not only changing your processing but also having to change your amplification. That's a key part of your system. Amplifiers may look the same according to specs but all impart their own sound signature. Do you really want to have to change that part of your system everytime some other technology changes?

Of course, Outlaw gives you 30 days to try them out. You can always try it out.

How about: MUCH more room on the back panels for plugging/unplugging various wires and interconnects.........but on the other hand another box to put somewhere.
Mike

Ok,sooo it is safe to conclude that sonically the 950/7100 does NOT offer a detectable improvement over let's say the 1050. Only flexibility?

IMO, whenever you split out the power amps from the preamplification/processing portion of a receiver, you get an improvement in fidelity. Plus, the 950 is a "current" generation piece 'o gear, whereas the 1050 is basically a 3 or 4 year old design?

I would agree with Kevin on that one -- I recall a sonic improvement between the 1050 and the 950/750. Mrs. gonk agrees, too.

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

I own the 950/770 combo. For the past 20 years I owned receivers: Pioneer, Akai, Technics, and two Harman/Kardons. Why the switch to seperates? Speakers! I had a combo of 8 and 6 ohm speakers & my H/K ran hot driving all of them. I wanted to add a pair of 4 ohm speakers to the mix and was concerned about the receiver's amp. Not any more, the seperate amp can handle this load easily. So I no longer have to concern myself with any future speaker purchases. All I will have to do is upgrade my pre-amp and leave the amplifier alone. By the way, the 950 is fabulous, even my wife immediately notice the improvement - and that's saying a lot! Hope this helps.